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If people are basically evil, why give them money?

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) writes | more than 8 years ago

User Journal 12

One of the things I've never been able to figure out is the liberal/conservative disjoint with the free market vs communism. It's always seemed to me that it should be the other way around.

Liberals believe that people are basically created good- shouldn't they then support a liberal, free market economic system that allows everybody to express that innate goodness in their own special way?One of the things I've never been able to figure out is the liberal/conservative disjoint with the free market vs communism. It's always seemed to me that it should be the other way around.

Liberals believe that people are basically created good- shouldn't they then support a liberal, free market economic system that allows everybody to express that innate goodness in their own special way?

Likewise, one of the basic Conservative beliefs, especially in western Judaeo/Islamic/Christian culture is that man is created evil- with a tendency to sin rather than to do good- and that all evil is closely tied to man's nature towards sin. Shouldn't such a belief tend towards marxism and centralized economies and governments, which reduce the ability of the individual to do damage, thus "Conserving" traditional values?

In other words- commie left winger is as much of an oxymoron to me as capitalist right winger- NEITHER common association makes much sense to me.

As for me, I believe the truth is somwhere in between- we're created sinfull, but with the capacity to do great good. Centralized governments and money systems harm that capacity; but locally government can do more good than business can, thus I tend towards local atocracies.

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It's not so much good and evil... (1)

Bill Dog (726542) | more than 8 years ago | (#15861188)

...as it is reasonably intelligent vs. dumb. Conservatives believe that, given opportunity and information, most people will make the right decisions and things will turn out for the better. Hence the faith in the free market, gun ownership, etc. Liberals believe that most people are stupid, and can't be trusted to make the correct (to them) decisions, so they must be controlled, and this is more efficiently done the more centralized the controlling power is.

Re:It's not so much good and evil... (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 8 years ago | (#15862003)

Conservatives believe that, given opportunity and information, most people will make the right decisions and things will turn out for the better.

But if the generic tendency is towards sin, why would anybody make the "right decisions"? Wouldn't that intelligence be used primarily for attaining fullfillment of one of the seven deadly sins instead?

Liberals believe that most people are stupid, and can't be trusted to make the correct (to them) decisions, so they must be controlled, and this is more efficiently done the more centralized the controlling power is.

Well, history shows the basic stupidity of humanity. But if people are basically good, but stupid, then a free market would be best- for people would gladly waste their money to help others, thus giving them as much money as possible would overall be a good thing.

I don't understand the conservative idea that people are intelligent- when they obviously aren't- or that liberal idea that the good can't be trusted to do good.

Re:It's not so much good and evil... (1)

Bill Dog (726542) | more than 8 years ago | (#15864235)

But if the generic tendency is towards sin, why would anybody make the "right decisions"?

The source of your not understanding conservatives (or rather, as we're talking about here, religious conservatives) is I think in your meaning of "basically evil". When I think of "basically evil", I think of serial murderers and child molesters etc. But it seems to me the vast majority of people are either 1) believers and are cognizant of temptation and know they should resist and do the right thing, and do it most of the time, and 2) unbelievers who, by and large, are just busy working and raising their families, and just want to be left alone and they leave other people alone. Such that most people work instead of stealing for a living, most people can own firearms without shooting up the neighborhood, etc.

I don't understand the conservative idea that people are intelligent- when they obviously aren't-

Intelligent enough. Most of the time.

or that liberal idea that the good can't be trusted to do good.

I don't know on what issues a liberal would see people as "good". You might want to double-check with a liberal. They definitely sometimes consider people to be evil, when they're not stupid. For example, SUV drivers. Liberals know that these owners know that they're gas-guzzling and pollution-spewing, relatively speaking. And they drive them anyways, so to the liberal, these people aren't stupid, they're evil. And must be controlled.

Re:It's not so much good and evil... (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 8 years ago | (#15866440)

Now this post makes me more confused- not less. For instance, this paragraph:

The source of your not understanding conservatives (or rather, as we're talking about here, religious conservatives) is I think in your meaning of "basically evil". When I think of "basically evil", I think of serial murderers and child molesters etc. But it seems to me the vast majority of people are either 1) believers and are cognizant of temptation and know they should resist and do the right thing, and do it most of the time, and 2) unbelievers who, by and large, are just busy working and raising their families, and just want to be left alone and they leave other people alone. Such that most people work instead of stealing for a living, most people can own firearms without shooting up the neighborhood, etc.

Gee, where have I heard that argument before? Oh yeah, from the liberal open-borders crowd, who claim that immigrants are just here to make their lives and the lives of their families better- and yet the first thing that happens in most barios seems to be that everybody gets guns and shoots up the neighborhood. Are you a closet liberal or something?

Intelligent enough. Most of the time.

Intelligence is like a gun- it's a tool. The problem isn't how smart somebody is, but what they use that intelligence for.

I don't know on what issues a liberal would see people as "good". You might want to double-check with a liberal. They definitely sometimes consider people to be evil, when they're not stupid. For example, SUV drivers. Liberals know that these owners know that they're gas-guzzling and pollution-spewing, relatively speaking. And they drive them anyways, so to the liberal, these people aren't stupid, they're evil. And must be controlled.

Now you see, that's something else I don't understand. Eco-nazis aside (they're stupid anyway, most of the ecoterrorist protests I've seen end up causing MORE damage to the environment than a clear-cut logging operation- we even had one where they dug latrines within 100 feet of a stream that ran into Portland's main water supply!), conservation is a conservative value. In fact, one might say it's the central conservative value- so much so that they named the whole movement after it. It's driving the SUV and not caring that you're wasting money and resources that is big-L Liberal- because that's what liberals do, waste resources without caring about the future.

Re:It's not so much good and evil... (1)

Bill Dog (726542) | more than 8 years ago | (#15869145)

Gee, where have I heard that argument before?

1) Most illegal immigrants from the south come here to work, and do -- it's their kids who are running amok, unsupervised, unfortunately.

2) Liberals may be using that argument, but it doesn't argue for the positions that they hope people will be fooled into thinking it does. (This is actually a common tactic used by experienced deception artists, such as Liberals and advertisers.)

...conservation is a conservative value.

So that's where you're getting hung up. I recommend ignoring the dictionary meanings of the words liberal and conservative, and observe what modern Liberals and Conservatives advocate. I would say that going by the dictionary definitions, I'm a liberal, in that I feel that our society has gone way to the left, and I want it changed (back). And Liberals are conservative in that they want to retain the gains they've made (while they press for moving us further left).

Re:It's not so much good and evil... (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 8 years ago | (#15869212)

So that's where you're getting hung up. I recommend ignoring the dictionary meanings of the words liberal and conservative, and observe what modern Liberals and Conservatives advocate.

If I go on that, I'd have to say that most modern Liberals and Conservatives in this country are godless, bohemian atheists- worshiping materialism and doing no good for the world at all. Whether laisez faire capitalists or welfare-big-brother statists, neither side even comes close to approaching the form of government and economics advocated in Acts of the Apostles for Christians to follow.

Re:It's not so much good and evil... (1)

Bill Dog (726542) | more than 8 years ago | (#15870582)

By "advocate", I mean look at what Conservatives and Liberals say, not what they do, to determine what are the precepts of each philosophy in their modern incarnations.

Hey, you could be a variant of the next Jeff Foxworthy: "If you worship materialism and do no good for the world at all, you miiiiight be a godless bohemian atheist!" :o) Seriously, "worshiping materialism" and "doing no good for the world at all" are pretty nebulous and loaded and subjective phrases.

I hadn't realized that the Book of Acts advocated a form of government and economics. I'd be interested to read up on it, but only if you would point me in the general direction, as I'm otherwise not the type to refer to the Bible for things other than what I consider to be its main purposes.

Re:It's not so much good and evil... (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 8 years ago | (#15870726)

By "advocate", I mean look at what Conservatives and Liberals say, not what they do, to determine what are the precepts of each philosophy in their modern incarnations.

Ah- that would put both of them in the same category, wouldn't it? Hypocrites.

Hey, you could be a variant of the next Jeff Foxworthy: "If you worship materialism and do no good for the world at all, you miiiiight be a godless bohemian atheist!" :o) Seriously, "worshiping materialism" and "doing no good for the world at all" are pretty nebulous and loaded and subjective phrases.

Agreed- and partly they come because I'm pretty fed up with a society that teaches one set of morals and lives by another. There's something desparately wrong with a society where SUVs, Lear Jets, and 8 million fat children being diagnosed with malnutrition can all exists simultaneously (that last because of the difference in nutritional value between food given to the poor and kept for the rich).

I hadn't realized that the Book of Acts advocated a form of government and economics. I'd be interested to read up on it, but only if you would point me in the general direction, as I'm otherwise not the type to refer to the Bible for things other than what I consider to be its main purposes.

Chapters 4 & 5 in specific describe what a Christian community *should* look like; though I'll warn you it's not for weak stomachs (the death penalty for lying about personal property in specific). I'm not aware of anybody outside of the monasteries and convents actually achieving it in the last 800 years or so; and Marx certainly had it the wrong way around when he tried to do it with more than a few dozen people. But all property held in common for the good of the community would certainly be closer to Christian behavior than each man for himself, attempting to cheat his neighbor to get ahead, which is all I see going on in the United States today.

Re:It's not so much good and evil... (1)

DaedalusHKX (660194) | more than 8 years ago | (#15876943)

I love those sides, they've been used to divide the people, hijack their beliefs, regulate their markets and diminish or destroy their freedoms yet people continue to CLING to those idiotic systems of belief, conservative vs liberal, instead of seeing it for what it is... 50/50 idiocy/intelligence on BOTH sides of the agenda...

I believe in being allowed to do what I want with my personal life (liberal) I hate churches and organized religions and recognize them for their butcherous nature (does this make me liberal because I believe I choose my own path in life and I pay for my crimes IF I commit them, without being blamed for the crimes of my forefathers?)

At the same time I don't believe in the concept of "gay" vs "straight" instead of honesty, using the term "homosexual" vs "heterosexual". I believe both have and will exist as part genetic tendency and part curiosity. I know plenty of my former female compatriots from college have had lesbian sex merely so they could experience the feeling in a time when we were all young and curious. Many have "gone hetero" again, while others found they liked it. Was it genetic? Was it choice? WHO THE HELL CARES?!?! It is THEIR business, not mine, not yours. They went adventuring, they found what they liked, good for them if they're happy.

I hate taxes. I believe they're a way to skin the people dry. I find it AMUSING that some idiots among us believe that Thomas Jefferson and HIS Republican party was actually a "conservative" when good ole T.J. was known as a "LIBERAL" today more accurately he would've been known as a "Classical Liberal" while those of us in the know, who've read his writings would've classified Mr. Jefferson (or is that President Jefferson?) as a CLASSICAL ANARCHIST... since he had a thorough and complete distrust and HATRED of government and military / business relationships.

I am also a gunnie, I support my neighborhood, and the NRA (despite the fact that they support a party as corrupted and demented as the Christian Conservative Zionists of America (Republican Party)). I'm also a conservationist. This is where I part ways with the NRA. I believe in hunting, but I don't believe in sport hunting unless I'm going to also EAT what I kill. I dont' hunt for shits and giggles like some, and I'm not particularly caring to kill something just to mount in on my wall, I got plenty of junk in my place already without having to find a place to mount a dead, stuffed deer head.

Feel free to flame or contribute :) While we still have free speech and press (so long as we say what we're expected to, I presume) we should freely exercise our right to talk smack... so talk away!!!

this is because... (1)

eglamkowski (631706) | more than 8 years ago | (#15861364)

the words "liberal" and "conservative" have been twisted beyond all recognition into becoming the opposite of what they used to mean. Liberals did indeed once upon a time believe in free market lassez-faire economics. Then the Marxists took over the name "liberal" and it's been all downhill ever since.

Re:this is because... (1)

LewsTherinKinslayer (817418) | more than 8 years ago | (#15865382)

i second this comment.

Re:this is because... (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 8 years ago | (#15866811)

I'm a Tom McCall Republican myself- in that I consider conservation to be a key conservative value....
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