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Democrats: Seattle Shooting Victim is a Flip-Flopper, Hypocrite

pudge (3605) writes | more than 6 years ago

United States 18

I have been told repeatedly that McCain is a flip-flopper and hypocrite because he was against the Bush tax cuts, but now he wants to keep them. I tell them the obvious truth that the effects of removing a tax cut are not the same as having not enacted it in the first place, and this is why McCain opposes taxes increasing from whatever the current level is.

I have been told repeatedly that McCain is a flip-flopper and hypocrite because he was against the Bush tax cuts, but now he wants to keep them. I tell them the obvious truth that the effects of removing a tax cut are not the same as having not enacted it in the first place, and this is why McCain opposes taxes increasing from whatever the current level is.

The Democrats don't accept it. They apparently believe that if you're against the taxes at a certain level, you must always be against them at that level, no matter what route is taken to get there; that the changes between different levels of taxation are immaterial, and that only the absolute value of tax rates matters.

Recently a woman was shot in Seattle, and the bullet lodged in her leg. Presumably, she opposed being shot (I hope there's no contention on this point). But now that the bullet is in her leg, she is likely going to leave it there, because her doctors say it would do more damage to remove the bullet.

I guess that makes her a flip-flopper and hypocrite, according to the Democrats.

Or maybe they just have trouble understanding that different things are, in fact, often different.

Cross-posted on <pudge/*>.

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18 comments

You almost get it right here (1)

RailGunner (554645) | more than 6 years ago | (#23763125)

Or maybe they just have trouble understanding that different things are, in fact, often different.

I'd suggest that most Democrats these days have trouble understanding anything.

Their Socialist Indoctrination Centers - er, I mean 'Public Schools' have failed them.

Re:You almost get it right here (1)

Miguelito (13307) | more than 5 years ago | (#23783959)

Actually, that means they're working as planned.

there's more to it than that (1)

Charbox (1134059) | about 6 years ago | (#23787567)

Video [youtube.com] and a list from mid-April, [thecarpetb...report.com] which has since expanded. [thinkprogress.org]

Re:there's more to it than that (1)

pudge (3605) | about 6 years ago | (#23788011)

Give me a single quote from McCain that ever shows him implying that he would want these tax cuts to ever be removed if they get enacted.

I await your reply.

Re:there's more to it than that (1)

Charbox (1134059) | about 6 years ago | (#23788073)

"I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us, at the expense of middle-class Americans who most need tax relief." -- John McCain, 2001 [usnews.com]

Do you mean to imply that his good conscience would be expected to change when the bill was signed?

Re:there's more to it than that (1)

pudge (3605) | about 6 years ago | (#23788371)

I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I'll ask again.

Give me a single quote from McCain that ever shows him implying that he would want these tax cuts to ever be removed if they get enacted.

Re:there's more to it than that (1)

Charbox (1134059) | about 6 years ago | (#23788439)

That is one, you know it, and anyone reading this knows it. If you can't in good conscience support something, that means you don't support it whether it has been enacted or not. You can not think of a single reason why that would ever not be the case, because there are no such reasons.

Re:there's more to it than that (1)

pudge (3605) | about 6 years ago | (#23788633)

That is one
Incorrect.

If you can't in good conscience support something, that means you don't support it whether it has been enacted or not.
So you are calling the woman who wants to keep the bullet in her leg a flip-flopper. Right-o. Seems kinda crass of you to do so, but so be it.

You can not think of a single reason why that would ever not be the case, because there are no such reasons.
Incorrect. It's quite simple: the effects of increasing taxes after having decreased them are very different from having not decreased them in the first place. An intelligent and thoughtful person will not consider those to be the same things.

Re:there's more to it than that (1)

Charbox (1134059) | about 6 years ago | (#23789119)

The injured lady never said that she was opposed to a bullet remaining in her leg. You are pretending that she would have to make an absurd argument. It is reasonable to suspect that she has been and is in favor of her health, just as the electorate is saying they are in favor of a healthy economy.

You don't have a shred of evidence that removing the tax cuts wouldn't return us to the Clinton economy we had before they were enacted, with high growth, low inflation, and shrinking unemployment. There is plenty of reason to believe that it would, for example, the more numerous lower income earners would end up with more money [washingtonmonthly.com] to spend as consumers. Have you seen how consumer spending went last month [forbes.com] ? The rich are sending their money to tax havens in the Bahamas, not pumping their Bush-gotten gains into the economy. There is no denying that McCain would rather try to finagle hefty campaign contributions from rich Republicans so that he can air ads saying what a man of the people he is than stay the course of his formerly populist ideals.

(That graph is derived from the one on page 35 of this report from the Tax Policy Center. [taxpolicycenter.org] )

But the biggest influence on the economy isn't tax policy, it's what a hawkish foreign policy does to inflation. [latimes.com] If you really want to vote for small government, don't support candidates who want big wars. Or is the Iranian threat to Israel more important than the domestic economy.

Re:there's more to it than that (1)

pudge (3605) | about 6 years ago | (#23789193)

The injured lady never said that she was opposed to a bullet remaining in her leg.
You are confused. I never said she was.

I said she was NOT opposed to LEAVING IT IN her leg. I said I presumed she WAS opposed to PUTTING IT IN her leg.

Two different things: PUTTING IT IN and LEAVING IT IN. She opposes the former, and is favor of the latter.

You are pretending that in the case of tax cuts, those are the same: PUTTING IT IN and LEAVING IT IN. They are not the same.

You don't have a shred of evidence that removing the tax cuts wouldn't ...
That is irrelevant. The issue here is not what tax cuts or increases will or won't do. The issue is only whether McCain has changed his position on them. Try to stay focused.

And in order to show that, you must show that he ever implied that he would want these tax cuts to ever be removed if they get enacted, not simply that he didn't want them enacted in the first place.

Re:there's more to it than that (1)

Charbox (1134059) | about 6 years ago | (#23797251)

Trying to stay focused on your original question, "Give me a single quote from McCain that ever shows him implying that he would want these tax cuts to ever be removed if they get enacted." From Meet the Press, April 11, 2004 [msn.com] :

MR. RUSSERT: Since the Civil War, every president who has been at war has increased taxes. Should the president consider postponing his tax cut?

SEN. McCAIN: I would have--I voted against the tax cuts because of the disproportionate amount that went to the wealthy Americans. I would clearly support not extending those tax cuts in order to help address the deficit....

emphasis added; video [youtube.com] (start at 0:27)

Re:there's more to it than that (1)

pudge (3605) | about 6 years ago | (#23797561)

I would clearly support not extending those tax cuts
I am not sure of the context. Which cuts? There was no tax cut to postpone in April 2004 that I know of. The tax cuts of 2001 and 2003 were already in place, so there was nothing to postpone there.

Re:there's more to it than that (1)

Charbox (1134059) | about 6 years ago | (#23797585)

The cuts that, as he says, he voted against, which at that time were those 2001 and 2003 cuts.

Re:there's more to it than that (1)

pudge (3605) | about 6 years ago | (#23797689)

The cuts that, as he says, he voted against, which at that time were those 2001 and 2003 cuts.
So you say. I need to understand the context better. I looked in the transcript and didn't see it, so I'd have to look into it more, and don't have the time to do that.

Re:there's more to it than that (1)

Charbox (1134059) | about 6 years ago | (#23797805)

When you get time, search for, "Since the Civil War".

Re:there's more to it than that (1)

pudge (3605) | about 6 years ago | (#23798029)

When you get time, search for, "Since the Civil War".
Why? What's that got to do with the word "postpone," which obviously implies that the tax cut Russert is asking about has not yet been implemented?

Re:there's more to it than that (1)

Charbox (1134059) | about 6 years ago | (#23798433)

You asked about context. In the context following "I voted against the tax cuts because of the disproportionate amount that went to the wealthy Americans," the antecedent of "those tax cuts" in "I would clearly support not extending those tax cuts" are the ones he voted against.

Re:there's more to it than that (1)

pudge (3605) | about 6 years ago | (#23800257)

You asked about context.
Yes. McCain was responding to a question, and you can't tell me, and I don't know, what tax cuts Russert was referring to in that question.
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