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Baby, Give Me One More Surge

Philip K Dickhead (906971) writes | more than 4 years ago

Mars 25

"Just one more surge!" -- The Indus

"Just one more surge!" -- The Kushans

"Just one more surge!" -- The Scythians

"Just one more surge!" -- The Parthians

"Just one more surge!" -- The Saffaridss

"Just one more surge!" -- The Ghaznavids

"Just one more surge!" -- The Ghorids

"Just one more surge!" -- The Timurids

"Just one more surge!" -- The Hotaki

"Just one more surge!" -- The Durrani

"Just one more surge!" -- The Sassanids

"Just one more surge!" -- The Indus

"Just one more surge!" -- The Kushans

"Just one more surge!" -- The Scythians

"Just one more surge!" -- The Parthians

"Just one more surge!" -- The Saffaridss

"Just one more surge!" -- The Ghaznavids

"Just one more surge!" -- The Ghorids

"Just one more surge!" -- The Timurids

"Just one more surge!" -- The Hotaki

"Just one more surge!" -- The Durrani

"Just one more surge!" -- The Sassanids

"Just one more surge!" -- The Hephthalites

"Just one more surge!" -- The Huns

"Just one more surge!" -- The Mughals

"Just one more surge!" -- The Arabs

"Just one more surge!" -- The Turkmans

"Just one more surge!" -- The Hazara

"Just one more surge!" -- The Khwarezmids

"Just one more surge!" -- The Mongols

"Just one more surge!" -- The British

"Just one more surge!" -- The British (again)

"Just one more surge!" -- The British (Yet again)

"Just one more surge!" -- The USSR

"Just one more surge!" -- The United States

cancel ×

25 comments

Post-WW2 Foreign Policy (1)

Captain Splendid (673276) | more than 4 years ago | (#30302422)

There can be only one: [foreignpolicy.com]

Americans have come to believe that spending government revenues on U.S. citizens here at home is usually a bad thing and should be viewed wth suspicion, but spending billions on vast social engineering projects overseas is the hallmark of patriotism and should never be questioned. This position makes no sense, but it is hard to think of a prominent U.S. leader who is making an explicit case for doing somewhat less abroad so that we can afford to build a better future here at home. Debates about foreign policy, grand strategy, and military engagement -- including the current debate over Obama's decision to add another 30,000-plus troops in Afghanistan -- tend to occur in isolation from a discussion of other priorities, as if there were no tradeoffs between what we do for others and what we are able to do for Americans here at home.

Re:Post-WW2 Foreign Policy (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 4 years ago | (#30313378)

I think that's an attitude that is pretty much limited to inside the Beltway and maybe the CIA.

Re:Post-WW2 Foreign Policy (1)

Philip K Dickhead (906971) | more than 4 years ago | (#30313962)

Al Qaeda is Emmanuel Goldstein.

There is no problem of "International Terrorism". Without "intelligence agencies" of various state actors, even the false appearance of this would vanish. There have always been local struggles of resistance. Always, there will be.

I think it behooves anyone who wishes to understand what really goes in, to study deeply, the history of "Operation Gladio" and the Italian "Red Brigades" - including the murder of Aldo Morro.

Now. Apply this to the world of "post-communist" global politics, and create an enemy in "Islam".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio [wikipedia.org]

Re:Post-WW2 Foreign Policy (1)

pudge_confirmer (1504761) | more than 4 years ago | (#30314526)

Thanks for that link.

Re:Post-WW2 Foreign Policy (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 4 years ago | (#30314668)

Al Qaeda is Emmanuel Goldstein.
 
If you read the Muwahiddun commentaries on the Koran, then Al Qaeda is much less than Emanuel Goldstien- and much more the mythical version of Martin Luther has become for Catholics (as opposed to the real version, which was much tamer- but ended in pretty much the same result due to a pair of theological missteps).

There is a real reformation going on in Islam- one that is only tangential to "post communist" global politics and we're not even the primary enemy by any stretch of the imagination.

Muhammad iban Abd-al-Wahhab [wikipedia.org] was more a contemporary of our own Thomas Jefferson, than a contemporary of Marx- and predates even the British colonization of the Middle East by a good hundred years.

99% of the so-called terrorism, is Islamic-on-Islamic violence as they start (well, only about 200 years in now- but look how long the Reformation in Christianity took to stop being violent) to fight their reformation. It's only very recently that this violence has turned against invaders, only in the last century or so.

The cause of the violence is similar to the heresy of Fr. Feeney in the American Roman Catholic Church, that Outside the Church There Is No Salvation (Extra Ecclesiam, Nullas Salvas)- but far narrower in it's fundamentalism. The central theological concept is Tawhid [wikipedia.org] - the uniqueness of God as the ONLY Lord of man. Not even civil secular civil governments are allowed in between God and Man, not even scholars in the mosque are between Allah and the individual's interpretation of what Allah wants for his life. And of course, the standard Sunni theology of There is no God But Allah, and Mohammed is His Prophet.

The result of this, when combined with the five pillars and certain verses of the Koran taken out of context, is an extreme form of anarchy where the duty of Jihad becomes supreme and individualistic. And the enemy is anybody who doesn't agree with that individual- including OTHER al Qaida members.

THAT is the real danger that you see as being blown out of proportion. But looking at what the Five Solas did to Christianity, I personally see a major danger in merely "pacifying" al Qaida or the Taliban or any other Muwahiddun community.

Has almost nothing to do with the attacks on America, though I'll freely admit I would never have researched this without those attacks. Has everything to do with theology- and the concept that if you're not *very* careful, religion can be twisted to be a very negative thing.

Having said that- Afghanistan is the wrong place to be fighting this war. As you point out above, it's where empires go to die.

History (1)

pudge_confirmer (1504761) | more than 4 years ago | (#30306284)

Got a link for the dates those bodies piled up in Afghanistan?

I wonder what the genetics of Afghans is, compared to the various invaders?

Re:History (1)

Captain Splendid (673276) | more than 4 years ago | (#30306506)

Got a link for the dates those bodies piled up in Afghanistan?

I think the length of the list is a testament to the irrelevancy of that data.

I wonder what the genetics of Afghans is, compared to the various invaders?

Wikipedia is your friend. [wikipedia.org]

Those eyes...dayum (1)

zogger (617870) | more than 4 years ago | (#30306814)

As a long time girl watcher, I remember becoming just near stunned and hyp-mo-tized by these eyes [nationalgeographic.com] the first time I saw them. Truly an admirable mix of genes there. You can see in the follow up story though how living there just beats on people, just never ending war and stress.

Re:Those eyes...dayum (1)

pudge_confirmer (1504761) | more than 4 years ago | (#30309240)

Yes, those eyes.

But lordie, what a 5hit-hole of a country to have to survive. No resources except poppy fields and a distribution network for contraband.

So, can you provide a link to the history of invasion?

I do believe the right course is to pacify Al Qiada, and that likely involves mostly Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Muslims.

Notice I say, pacify, not obliterate.

Re:Those eyes...dayum (1)

zogger (617870) | more than 4 years ago | (#30309402)

Which invasion? As PKD pointed out, non stop war there since.forever. From my perspective, the US invasion started when they supported the mujahadeen against the Sovs.

As to pacify, I don't think it can be done except for an approach like saddam used in iraq, and to gradually secularize them..

Re:Those eyes...dayum (1)

pudge_confirmer (1504761) | more than 4 years ago | (#30309738)

"history of invasion"

all invasions, likely including those of the parent journal entry.

I confirm our invasion started after 9/11. Our actions earlier were a proxy war, not an invasion.

see the difference?

Re:Those eyes...dayum (1)

zogger (617870) | more than 4 years ago | (#30315522)

It's a matter of degree and numbers of boots on the ground and where you want to draw the line. During the sov occupation we had spec ops and spooks in theater.

Re:Those eyes...dayum (1)

pudge_confirmer (1504761) | more than 4 years ago | (#30319448)

Indeed.

So basically, we have invaded the whole world, by your reckoning.

Re:Those eyes...dayum (1)

Philip K Dickhead (906971) | more than 4 years ago | (#30310736)

Afghanistan was not a "shit hole" prior to 1979. It was a 3rd world country, to be sure. Western Afghanistan was, in particular, a part of Khorasan - which before the Mongol devastation was the center of arts, culture, learning, science, mathematics, logic, literature and astronomy in the world. This is not an exaggeration of importance. Greek and Egyptian precursors to this enlightenment were just the rudiments of the achievements in Khorasan by Avicenna, Averroes, Khayyam and others.

Something of this remained. Some charm and courtesies that continued from before the 13th century - up to our own day.

Prior to the Soviets, Afghanistan was documented beautifully in the photographic journalism of Roland and Sabrina Michaud. I suggest Le Route D'Or De Samarqand if you can find it. http://www.priceminister.com/offer/buy/544174/Michaud-La-Route-D-Or-De-Samarkand-Livre.html [priceminister.com] The book shows the last glimpse of Silk Road life - Caspian, Persian, Afghan, Uzbek and Hindu Kush - before this unchanged and jewel-like little world was was obliterated between Brezhinsky and the Soviets.

Look. http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1259854368/ref=sr_pg_1?ie=UTF8&rs=&keywords=roland%20michaud&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aroland%20michaud&page=1 [amazon.com]

Re:Those eyes...dayum (1)

pudge_confirmer (1504761) | more than 4 years ago | (#30314438)

Well, I did not say it was a 5hit hole before 1979. The problem is NOW, not then.

I value your citation, and I am inclined to read that.

Thanks, Dickhead.

I am aware that Europeans and their spawn are greatly indebted to civilizations they typically destroyed (such as those in the Middle East, Asia, North America) with that European fascination with chemical (gunpowder, RDX, etc.) and nuclear (A-bomb, H-Bomb, "neutron" bomb", "dirty" bomb, etc.) force applied against humans.

But that still leaves me wanting a link to the invaders of Afghanistan.

----
confirmed

Re:Those eyes...dayum (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 4 years ago | (#30313552)

I do believe the right course is to pacify Al Qiada, and that likely involves mostly Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Muslims.

Notice I say, pacify, not obliterate.
 
Do you have a theologically appropriate idea how that is in complete keeping with the mythology of the mujahidin-inspired Individual Jihad? And given the fact that Individual Jihad opens the Koran up to the same chaotic verse-taken-out-of-context interpretation as Sola Scriptura did to the Christian Bible, how do you pacify Al Qaida while it's busy splitting itself over the next 500 years into 30,000 waring sects?

Re:Those eyes...dayum (1)

pudge_confirmer (1504761) | more than 4 years ago | (#30344560)

Do you have a theologically appropriate idea how that is in complete keeping with the mythology of the mujahidin-inspired Individual Jihad?

No, I do not.

And given the fact that Individual Jihad opens the Koran up to the same chaotic verse-taken-out-of-context interpretation as Sola Scriptura did to the Christian Bible, how do you pacify Al Qaida while it's busy splitting itself over the next 500 years into 30,000 waring sects?

A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.

Re:Those eyes...dayum (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 4 years ago | (#30354310)

Let me know when you do- and in the meantime can we at least now arrest George W Bush and try him for aiding and abetting the enemy based on the evidence released in the press over the weekend? 8 years ago we had a damned good chance at ending the war on terror before it even started by capturing Ossama Bin Laden, putting him on a televised worldwide trial, and then executing him on live TV to prove to Islamics everywhere that Sola Jihad doesn't pay. And what do we do? We fail to invade Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and China to close the loop to get bin Laden when we had the chance. Not only that, but the President *refused* to activate the draft to get the million or so men we needed to assure bin Laden's capture- therefore I personally think that the only explanation left is that the Bush Administration was in cahoots with bin Laden.

Re:Those eyes...dayum (1)

pudge_confirmer (1504761) | more than 4 years ago | (#30359960)

You will be the first to know- if you get first post on my journal.

Unfortunately, I think you overestimate the influence of OBL or GWB on terrorism worldwide- not to say, I want them to go unscathed, but more to say, the solution is not _just_ to punish the messenger or the perpetrator.

Re:Those eyes...dayum (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 4 years ago | (#30367552)

The point isn't to solve the problem. The point is to send the message that in the game of terrorism, the United States plays for keeps.

I nearly called for the extermination of everybody with the name bin Laden- but in researching that message and my corresponding journal entry, I found quite the touching heartfelt apology from Omar bin Laden- Osama's 4th son- who unfortunately, like the rest of us, hasn't seen his father in person since April 2001.

Re:Those eyes...dayum (1)

pudge_confirmer (1504761) | more than 4 years ago | (#30376074)

I respectfully disagree that the point is to show we play for keeps.

The point IMHO is to find a solution. The solution IMHO is not that: when the weak find a way to strike; that the strong find a way to punish.

If we are all in this together, and we all win or lose together, "terrorism" will cease.

We will have a Marxist utopia. And a capitalist utopia. And a democratic utopia. And a Muslim utopia, and a Christian utopia, etc. Likely not a fascist utopia, though. Sorry, and give my regards to Adolph.

And are we there yet? Gee, no.

Re:Those eyes...dayum (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 4 years ago | (#30379092)

We're not even all in this together. That, precisely, is the problem.

What you don't seem to realize is that we will *NEVER* be all in this together as long as we tolerate theologies that teach that the way to utopia is to kill the other guy.

The toleration is precisely the problem. As long as that toleration continues, terrorism will be seen as the *PRIMARY* method by which downtrodden and poor societies get the rich to notice them.

I think you missed the Persians. (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 4 years ago | (#30313360)

And the Greeks, or at least the Macedonians, who got tired of war crossing Afghanistan and while they invaded India, they then nearly mutinied against their commander, Alexander the Great.

Re:I think you missed the Persians. (1)

Philip K Dickhead (906971) | more than 4 years ago | (#30313850)

Yeah. Persians in particular and Iranians in general are included under the Dynastic labels in the list.

Alexander is also really under the Sassanids - this was the Alexandrian dynasty that devolved from the Satrapy for Persia, and left a LONG legacy in the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom and among the Indo-Scythians. This kingdom was really the incubator for Buddhism and it was Iranic missionaries from Bactria who transmitted Buddhism east to Kashgaria, Tibet and Sino-Asia.

Of course, we can be both/either more complicated and pedantic about the listing.

It illustrates, in any case, but the futility and folly of Afghan misadventure.

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