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The slashdot equivalent of a moral earthquake

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) writes | about a year and a half ago

User Journal 13

Pudge (yes, the pudge that many of us have had a problem with) finally engaged in an argument I can agree with him on. MORE THAN THAT, he posted what I have to say, after 3 hours of listening to it, the definitive link for our side.

http://open.biola.edu/resources/is-faith-in-god-reasonable

Pudge (yes, the pudge that many of us have had a problem with) finally engaged in an argument I can agree with him on. MORE THAN THAT, he posted what I have to say, after 3 hours of listening to it, the definitive link for our side.

http://open.biola.edu/resources/is-faith-in-god-reasonable

The debate might have started out "Is faith reasonable"? But it quickly turned out to be a disproof of quantum randomness and a disproof of the problem of evil.

In the end, Prof. Craig utterly destroyed the idea that Uranium emitting an Alpha Particle destroys the idea of God. And he ridiculed the problem of evil so completely that from now on I'm going to laugh at atheists that bring it up.

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Your god has no human attributes of any kind (1)

fustakrakich (1673220) | about a year and a half ago | (#42984111)

None at all. Except for those we give it. We are its human attributes. Your god did not create good and evil. Man did. Man created morality. So now it exists in god, through man. Your god is only as moral as man, no more, no less. And I don't know about you, but everything I see, hear, and feel, 'good' or 'bad', is 'god'. You won't hear me deny the existence of that.

As for looking for the definition of 'good' in ancient tribal tradition... Uh, no. They have no corner on that market. In fact, that is the rut we must crawl out from. We're still living by those traditions, as they are little more than manifestations of our fears and hates, and arrogant sense of superiority.

As a personal preference, the life of the bonobo = good... chimpanzee (with all their screaming and fighting) = bad. Apparently most humans believe just the opposite. Hence the violently coercive authority, as opposed to your feared 'hedonism' which is being perverted by that same authority that attempts to suppress it. Funny how those people are invariably unable to live by the rules they impose.

I think the humans' biggest problem is arrogance. That they think they are different from, or above the natural process (biological urges) explains a lot of mysteries when trying to explain any forceful social hierarchy. Man can't simply force the weaker members to obey. So the high priests create a 'superior being' to squash the urge to rebel against them. They say, "To be against us, is to be against god." (Yeah, Bush stole that one, too, with his 'you're with us, or against us' crap) It's time to realize that god does not exist in that form, and that we live in infinite abundance. War and oppression are unnecessary and hedonistic, infinitely more so than sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll.

Re:Your god has no human attributes of any kind (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about a year and a half ago | (#42984529)

It isn't God who has human attributes, it is humans that have God attributes.

That's the real problem- you're looking at the issue entirely backwards. God created morality and left it for *us* to discover, just like we've "discovered" physics. Did mankind invent the law of gravity in your world as well? All of the moral rules are just like gravity. They are true, because they work.

Human beings are not bonobos or chimps, so all of your research into that is worthless.

Your fear of authority betrays the real reason you hate the concept of God- not because there isn't enough evidence for him, but because God is an authority and you hate the concept of authority *in and of itself*. When you get over your "my father beat me thus God doesn't exist" issues, let me know.

Re:Your god has no human attributes of any kind (1)

fustakrakich (1673220) | about a year and a half ago | (#42985421)

:-) Actually, I was pretty tight with my father, but seven years of Catholic school is another matter. Maybe that;s why I believe biology trumps theology, which (theology) is something that should be taught to more developed brains in college where there can be a real discussion. Brainwashing little kids with that stuff is abusive. Teaching respect does not require a god, religion, or any of that, as convenient as they may be.

Anyway, none of any of this belies the fact that we don't need 'purpose'. We are perfectly free to create it, debate it, whatever gets your rocks off. Just don't impose your 'purpose' on anybody else.

Re:Your god has no human attributes of any kind (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about a year and a half ago | (#42985619)

The problem is, practically, without a purpose, there is no real reason to be against any behavior at all.

If there is no purpose to human life, genocide becomes the reasonable way to deal with a famine.

If there is no purpose to human life, there is no reason not to commit suicide the second you find out life is unfair.

If there is no purpose to human life, have all the sex you can, but be sure to murder your partners lest they become pregnant and give you a burden.

If there is no good, then there can be no evil, and that is simply not a practical way to live.

Re:Your god has no human attributes of any kind (1)

fustakrakich (1673220) | about a year and a half ago | (#42991421)

I'm sorry, but the conclusions that you draw are simply unsound. Things don't have to be that way at all. It is best that I defer [slashdot.org] .

Re:Your god has no human attributes of any kind (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about a year and a half ago | (#43004315)

The conclusions I have drawn have been proven historically repeatedly. Those who are not able to understand history *are* doomed to repeat it.

Re:Your god has no human attributes of any kind (1)

fustakrakich (1673220) | about a year and a half ago | (#43009769)

History has only shown that we're not quite human yet. Biological instinct still rules our behavior, and everything we have invented is a reflection of that, our technology, mysticism, all of it. And it all boils down to the alpha male ruling the nest. That is what is reflected in your repetition of history. Evolution is a very slow process.

One thing I forgot to add in a previous post:

I can accept the possibility that morals are there for us to discover, but not in a million years would I believe they are there for humans to impose on others. Just like we don't impose physics (except to enforce morality) or gravity. Only if you believe might makes right would that be the case. Which, in nature, it is. And that is still the MO of all things, including humans. And your god didn't create physics. It is physics. That's the discovery that I believe needs to be made.

Re:Your god has no human attributes of any kind (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about a year and a half ago | (#43010253)

But that IS human- Alpha male is a part of being human. Just because you don't like where the data points, doesn't change the reality of where the data points.

And "impose on others"- is just helping them to be truly human. It is only when they are *NOT* truly human that you get into trouble with morality (for instance, homosexuality).

Re:Your god has no human attributes of any kind (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42998067)

What did your god do to a group of kids who called a man bald? He sent female bears against them to rip them to shreds. So how is that moral?

Re:Your god has no human attributes of any kind (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about a year and a half ago | (#43004289)

Respect your elders or you will be punished. A basic bit of morality that is in *ALL* human civilizations that survive. In fact, respect for authority is a key ingredient to actually having a civilization, instead of chaos like the libertarian republics of Somalia.

heh (1)

Captain Splendid (673276) | about a year and a half ago | (#43026497)

And he ridiculed the problem of evil so completely that from now on I'm going to laugh at atheists that bring it up.

You should laughing at them anyway, as they're just as dogmatic as anything they rail against.

Also, the 'problem of evil' argument coming from a non-believer is, at best, concern trolling, and should be treated as such.

Re:heh (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about a year and a half ago | (#43027751)

By far the more amazing part was pudge posting something I agreed with.

But it never occurred to me that the problem of evil is a troll. I always took it at face value that the atheist in question actually had enough of a moral conscience to be worried about evil in the world.

Reminds me of this startling revelation in the last gasp of Benedict's papacy:
http://moynihanreport.itvworking.com/category/benedict-xvi [itvworking.com]

When Dr. Robert Moynihan reprinted a story from a tabloid in Inside The Vatican, all hell broke loose. But it seems to have turned out to be just a tabloid reporter trying to create a leak by duplicating the report of the Cardinals who were investigating Vatileaks.

Re:heh (1)

Captain Splendid (673276) | about a year and a half ago | (#43027847)

I always took it at face value that the atheist in question actually had enough of a moral conscience to be worried about evil in the world.

By definition, he can't. To an atheist, evil is a man-made construct and therefore about as important to a theological discussion as anything else that's secular.
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