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Thanks and meat.

$$$$$exyGal (638164) writes | more than 11 years ago

User Journal 98

Thank you so much for all of your comments and suggestions last week. It was important for me to write out those thoughts. Occasionally, my brain repeatedly dances around a topic over and over again, and the only way to finally tackle the issue is to force myself to coherently write it all out. Writing out those thoughts here on Slashdot was an opportunity for me to quickly garner feedback from all you smart folks. I'll post similar thoughts in the future.Thank you so much for all of your comments and suggestions last week. It was important for me to write out those thoughts. Occasionally, my brain repeatedly dances around a topic over and over again, and the only way to finally tackle the issue is to force myself to coherently write it all out. Writing out those thoughts here on Slashdot was an opportunity for me to quickly garner feedback from all you smart folks. I'll post similar thoughts in the future.

Here is one entry, among many, that I considered particularly insightful. Yes, I am in my 20's, but not for much longer.

A _slightly_ less serious issue to discuss: Do non-vegetarian people know they are eating animals ;-) ? I read this article about the FDA likely not seeking to label cloned animal meat in a special way, and it got me thinking. What if all meat was required to be labeled with the animals it contained? Would that labeling effect the sales of meat in a negative way?

Here's a poll! (for more polls, check out Em Emalb's journal)

==================================
I would not purchase meat labeled with:

A) A listing that said "Animals contained within this package: ". For example, ground beef would be labeled as "Animals contained within this package: Cows". Assume a one half inch tall font.

B) A cartoon rendition of all the animals contained within the package.

C) Stock photography of all the animals contained within the package.

D) A specific picture of the exact individual animals contained within the package. Assume a 1 inch black and white photo.

E) A specific picture of the exact individual animals as they are being killed.

F) A specific picture of the exact individual animals as they looked as babies.

G) A specific picture of the exact individual animals as they looked while they read pornography on the toilet.

H) "This product contains animals that had a penis and/or vagina".
==================================

Assume we are talking about farmyard mammals like pigs, cows, etc. Whatta ya say!?

Signed,
Someone who is a vegetarian, but who also happens to have a deep respect for the philosophy of Ted Nugent.

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98 comments

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Poll Answer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6317683)

C) Stock pornography of all the animals contained within the package

I live to eat meat (1)

EMDischarge (589758) | more than 11 years ago | (#6317716)

Seriously, it's true. I have many family members and friends who are vegetarians for many reasons: a few are co-workers affiliated with animal rights groups and PETA, some are for personal health reasons, others just are.

I, however, really appreciate a good steak and hamburger. I love chicken, especially white meat. Seafood, in particular lobster and shrimp, tops my list.

I'm fully aware of the ethical issues surrounding meat production in our modern age and I've read The Jungle - twice. There are many industries with questionable and unsustainable practices - the energy distribution industry comes to mind - but to me it's a necessity. I have nothing against those who choose to not eat meat or meat products. Hey, if you like that, then more power to you.

Thus this poll is flawed, simply because there is NOTHING that would dissuade me from purchasing meat products. I know full well what the animals look like and yes, cows are quite attractive and docile creatures both as calves and adults. I am also aware of WHAT PART OF THE COW produces what cut. I think it's my duty to know what goes in my gullet. I'm not one of those pansies who would just rather not know...

You need an option for diehards like me. Or is my opinion not desired? ;^)

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6317831)

I respect your opinion and appreciate that you want to know what goes in your body. Many people do not know, and do not want to know.

I assumed that even diehards would refuse to purchase meat that had a picture of a cow browsing pornography on a toilet. You'd still buy it? You'd purchase meat that had a picture of a toilet on it? How far could we go with this ;-) ?

How far are diehard meat fans willing to go to eat meat daily?

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

dvk (118711) | more than 11 years ago | (#6318001)

Your assumption is based on another - and very wrong - assumption that people actually pay attention to pictures on labels. Many (especially men) don't. As long as my label on meat confirms that it's kosher (i follow the laws of my culture) and doesn't contain french flag or "made in france", i don't care if it has a picture of a cow having lesbian sex with a chicken ;)
Although, i'd probably be more likely to buy meat if it had real lesbian porno label on it ;)

Cheers,
DVK

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6318487)

But wouldn't you look through the labels so you could find a picture of a cow that looked tasty? I bet the healthier / cleaner cows would be more palatable.

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

dvk (118711) | more than 11 years ago | (#6319322)

I'd have no proof that the cow on the picture is the source of that meat anyway...
Reminds me of an old russian joke:
A guy in the store asks about some meat: "what is that stuff?"
Store Worker: "Dog meat, 4th grade of quality"
Guy: "Why's there wood in it?"
SW: "4th grade dogmeat is ground together with the doghouse".

As for healthier cows, that's one benefit of only eating kosher meat - LOTS of the things that would make the meat unkosher are specifically various unhealthy states of the animal or even its parts.

-DVK

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6319653)

The intent of kosher slaughter is to keep animals that were not "healthy and moving" off of your plate. This is great in theory, but like much religious doctrine in the world, has been perverted to increase profits. While non-kosher cows are stunned before they are killed, their kosher counterparts are not stunned before they are killed (in most countries). If the general public were to see a kosher slaughter and a non-kosher slaughter, they would conclude that the kosher slaughter should be banned.

Please note that I'm only talking about animals slaughtered on factory farms (where nearly all of the supermarket/restaurant meat comes from). If you personally get your kosher meat from Farmer Bob down the street, then only Farmer Bob knows if his slaughter method is employing a perverted form of "kosher".

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

Maeryk (87865) | more than 11 years ago | (#6328122)

The intent of kosher slaughter is to keep animals that were not "healthy and moving" off of your plate. This is great in theory, but like much religious doctrine in the world, has been perverted to increase profits. While non-kosher cows are stunned before they are killed, their kosher counterparts are not stunned before they are killed (in most countries). If the general public were to see a kosher slaughter and a non-kosher slaughter, they would conclude that the kosher slaughter should be banned.

You are partially right, if by "stunned" you mean a bolt or bullet into the cerebral cortex. (THey die pretty instantly from the impact.. theres no real "stunning".) Whereas, with a true "kosher" killing.. its throat is cut alive..

Gory, but tasty!

maeryk

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336628)

Yes. The "stunning" procedure is really just a hammer through the brain. Often times, the hammer misses the target and the cow just gets a beyond-imaginable excruciating head wound. Other times, the "stunning" is perfect, and parts of the animal's brain are splattered throughout the rest of the cows meaty tissues.

In some ways, the "kosher" style of killing seems more natural, but in a factory setting, it certainly is not. Hundreds of cows are all thrashing about in various states of arousal while slowly bleeding to death. Each one is hanging by an appendage (I believe a rear leg is used) completely conscious while it dies.

In the case of the "stunning", then a higher percentage of the animals are immediately killed.

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

pbox (146337) | more than 11 years ago | (#6328935)

What about that cow is having lesbian sex with a

P I G !!!!!

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

dvk (118711) | more than 11 years ago | (#6329481)

The pig must have had her usual 30-minute orgasm... MAN I wanna be a female pig! :)

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

RedWizzard (192002) | more than 11 years ago | (#6323727)

I assumed that even diehards would refuse to purchase meat that had a picture of a cow browsing pornography on a toilet. You'd still buy it? You'd purchase meat that had a picture of a toilet on it?
The toilet wouldn't bother me, and the pornography wouldn't bother me. However if cows actually did read stuff (i.e. they were sentient) that would probably bother me.

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6323865)

However if cows actually did read stuff ...

;-) [nzoom.com]

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

RedWizzard (192002) | more than 11 years ago | (#6326972)

Soon they'll have them milking themselves and slaughtering each other.

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

evil_toy_maker (614007) | more than 11 years ago | (#6333617)

Re: >>> However if cows actually did read stuff ... ;-) [nzoom.com]

And just how far will you go, to lead yourself into believing that crap? And to think that you/we are related to the same mankind that landed on the moon...
*Rolls eyes way back*

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336660)

I posted it in jest. See the smiley?

Whether something can be trained to understand the difference between two differently colored shapes should not be how someone evaluates whether they should eat it.

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

evil_toy_maker (614007) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336929)

Touche` *smiles*

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

Maeryk (87865) | more than 11 years ago | (#6328110)

I assumed that even diehards would refuse to purchase meat that had a picture of a cow browsing pornography on a toilet. You'd still buy it? You'd purchase meat that had a picture of a toilet on it? How far could we go with this ;-) ?

Hell yeah! I grew up on a farm, worked on another. I have slaughtered animals, and then eaten them out of the freezer months later. I have slaughtered animals that not only had faces, but names.. (George, for example) and eaten them.

I avoid certain things.. organ meats.. anything designed to take toxins out of the blood cant be all that good for you, eh? I dont eat factory farmed chicken.. all the fish meal and ground up chicken they feed it makes it taste.. well, fishy. We raised our own chickens when I was young (and my mom still has a flock at her place, though the hawks are eating far better meat-wise out of that group than we are at the moment) so I know what real chicken is supposed to taste like.

I have a real issue eating _Intelligent_ animals, however. I stay away from octopus for that reason.. and eel. But I have no qualms about eating something that is incredibly stupid. (In fact, my neighbors in the low-rent housing out back are lookin kinda tasty now that I think of it.. they are definately self basting, and theres not an ounce of tough muscle on them.. gonna be hard to skin off the mullet though..)

So, in long, no, a picture of a cow beating its meat to PlayMoo on the crapper (thats really absurd..cows dont use a crapper!) would not turn me off. Nor would cartoon animals. You have obviously not eaten much stuff produced in Japan. *grin*

More power to ya though!

maeryk

Re:I live to eat meat (1)

Tet (2721) | more than 11 years ago | (#6381796)

I assumed that even diehards would refuse to purchase meat that had a picture of a cow browsing pornography on a toilet.

Any reason why they should? I mean what does it matter if there's a picture of a cow on a toilet? It certainly wouldn't affect my decision to buy it. Interestingly, some shops in the UK now do show a picture of the actual animal on the packaging (for the "high end" ranges, not the mass produced stuff). It's a small colour photo, maybe 40x30mm, somewhat grainy, but good enough. You can browse through the shelves, and pick the cow/deer/whatever that looks tastiest :-)

It wouldn't matter much (1)

glenebob (414078) | more than 11 years ago | (#6317884)

My feeling about eating is that if I can eat it, I can kill it, and I don't have a lot of respect for the attitude that killing is gross or whatever, unless you also don't eat dead animals. Therefore, I don't care what's on the package. Show pictures of cows being killed if you like, I'll still eat it. And yes, I have killed to eat. Not a cow or even a deer or anything, but I've done it, I didn't have a problem with it, and I'd do it again if the need arose.

Re:It wouldn't matter much (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6318481)

Every individual has their own idea of what is gross to kill and what is gross to eat.
  1. Some people revere bugs.
  2. Some people kill bugs.
  3. Some people kill and eat bugs.
  4. Some people only eat bugs that have been killed by other people.
  5. Some people revere cows.
  6. Some people kill cows.
  7. Some people kill and eat cows.
  8. Some people only eat cows that have been killed by other people.
After being a vegetarian for about 10 years, most meat looks the same as bugs to me. When someone orders a pizza with pepporoni, and they expect me to just "pick off" the meat, thats the same as me ordering a pizza with bugs on it and expecting someone who doesn't eat bugs to just "pick off" the bugs.

Re:It wouldn't matter much (1)

datadictator (122615) | more than 11 years ago | (#6328938)

Well sorry to burst everyones bubble. But I solemnly swear to become a vegetarian - the day lions, cheetah's and leopards do.
And don't tell me primates are not meant to be carnivores either, smile in the mirror - you have an omnivores teeth - your body is designed to eat meat.
In fact, I live in Africa, and I can promisse you that baboons hunt gazelle, I have seen them do it myself.

Why is it more wrong for a human to eat an animal, than for another animal to do it ? Human's despite our greatest believes may be (to christians) the crown of creation, but we are still part of creation. We are just as much a part of nature as the lion, and like the lion - we have every right to partake of what nature has to offer.

Re:It wouldn't matter much (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336215)

In fact, I live in Africa, and I can promisse you that baboons hunt gazelle, I have seen them do it myself.

Here's more info. [szgdocent.org]

Why is it more wrong for a human to eat an animal, than for another animal to do it.

Personally, I find absolutely nothing wrong with humans eating animals. I've weighed the pros and cons of my own body eating animals, and I've chosen not to. My thought process was roughly this:

  • I do not like watching animals that I can imagine being, suffer.
  • If I can avoid causing animals that I can imagine being, suffer, then I will try to do that.

Other than that simple logic, there really isn't any other logical reasons for my choice. Most other logical reasons for being a vegetarian that I've come across don't seem to hold water. It's a personal choice, and it works for me.

Re:It wouldn't matter much (1)

datadictator (122615) | more than 11 years ago | (#6347190)

That has to be the single most rational thing I have ever heard a vegetarian say. Congratulations.

I might add, that at least here in Africa, and at least in my culture (which is highly carnivorous) we have two requisite rules:
A) Never kill what you won't eat. Never waste what you killed. Simply: we considder it wrong to go "trophy hunting" for the sport of it. If we kill something (even for sport) we eat it.
B) Never ever let an animal suffer more than what is absolutely needed. If the best weapon you have is a crosbow, don't use a rock. If it is a gun, don't use a bow etc. We do not torture animals, when we want meat, we try to kill swiftly and painlessly.

Another side to the story, is that as a bit of an ecomaniac, I have learned that in nature there is no individuals. Nature is designed/evolved to ensure the survival of the species. Apples taste sweet because they want to be eaten - when you eat them, you spread the seeds and the species survive. If nothing hunts the gazelle, they destroy the grasslands, and both grass and gazelle die out.
Raising pigs for meat for example have been a mutually benifficial simbioses for man and pig.
Had men not built them pens on farms, the species would only exist in a tenth of the numbers that do.
On a species scale - eating pigs is to their advantage. If everyone stops eating pork, no farmer would be able to afford to keep pigs -and the domestic pig as a species would pretty much die out.
In the same irony, hunting farms here in SA have kept our game numbers at (latest stats) about 40 times what would otherwize be around - by giving farmers an economic incentive to keep game rather than plant corn.
This kind of symbioses extends beyond what we eat as well, the same symbioses exist between man and bees, or man an silkworms.
I think the tragedy of mankind is that we form symbiotics with so few species, in my ideal world, every creature, from lion to ellephant would live in our cities amongst us as pets.

I would eat all of the above. (1)

moncyb (456490) | more than 11 years ago | (#6318081)

No offense, but none of those labeling systems would stop me from eating meat. A picture of the cow having sex with Billy Joe Bob Farmer might stop me. A picture of its behind after the goatse.cx guy finished with it might stop me, but not the ones you mentioned. I also think (D) is a good idea, but in color. Then I may be able to tell if they give the creature a bath. I like my meat clean! :-)

Maybe I'm the wrong person for this poll. I have seriously considered if I ever get enough money, I'll have a nice wide pen where I can chase and kill the animals with various bladed weapons, then throw them on the BBQ. I was thinking cows, but they would be to slow and not fun. Maybe deer? I like to fight for my food. I haven't tasted deer meat though...is it any good? I know, I'm evil. You may now mark me as 'foe'. Move along.

I would like to see a labeling system where they show a picture of the cow after it was slaughtered. If it's a picture of an animal which has been rotting in the sun for days covered in flies, then I'm not buying it. Maybe I haven't been shopping in the right stores, but most of the beef they sell today is rotted crap. They must have really lowered the standards.

Re:I would eat all of the above. (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6318355)

I would like to see a labeling system where they show a picture of the cow after it was slaughtered. If it's a picture of an animal which has been rotting in the sun for days covered in flies, then I'm not buying it.

If such a labeling system were developed and enforced, I bet less meat would be purchased in the short-run. In the long-run the conditions of the live cows would probaby improve. This experiment will never take place, however, because it would make the price of meat go up. If meat prices go up, people will freak out instead of just eating something else.

Re:I would eat all of the above. (1)

Maeryk (87865) | more than 11 years ago | (#6328156)

If such a labeling system were developed and enforced, I bet less meat would be purchased in the short-run. In the long-run the conditions of the live cows would probaby improve. This experiment will never take place, however, because it would make the price of meat go up. If meat prices go up, people will freak out instead of just eating something else.

Expect to see them go up quite a bit by the end of summer. Beef prices usually go up in grilling season, because people tend to buy much larger and more expensive cuts of meat for the grill. but the "hoof n mouth" (possibly BSE, but Britain aint talking) epidemics and the admitted mad cow culls, plus the more recent culls in Canada, and the loss of a lot of midwest rangeland to drought and fires is putting a heck of a shortage of beef on the table. (pardon the pun.)

I think the problem is most people are ignorant of what good meat is SUPPOSED to look like. But remember.. these are people who will eat ground poultry with a smile. (Ever read the results of the tests they have done on ground poultry? If you want to get sick, theres your best chance.. turkeyburger is NASTY.. and has ridiculously high bacteria and fecal coliform levels in it.)

So.. beef prices will go up, and the beef industry _may_ ride it out because people have been so trained into eating juicy steaks, OR they may end up catering to people to get them to buy.. Im hoping towards B but leaning on A.

maeryk

Re:I would eat all of the above. (1)

tubamaster (307762) | more than 11 years ago | (#6320391)

Deer is one of the finest of meats. Especially if you are a fan of that gamey taste. I too am a big meat fan. I have worked in animal production and have seen them every step of the way. BTW, watch out for cows in heat, they will try to mount you. There isn't anything you could put on a package of meat that would keep me from buying it. I find that I tend to see vegetarian food in much the way that vegetarians see carnivorous food. No disrespect intended, but there is a reason we are where we are on the food chain, and it is my duty as a predator to eat things that are lower on the food chain. I am, and will remain, a meat eater, regardless of packaging.

Re:I would eat all of the above. (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6320542)

Most humans will never eat deer, because deer are not docile enought to be mass-produced on factory farms. I contend that the predatory instinct in humans is something that most people prefer to suppress:
  1. Most people prefer that their meat be given to them in pre-cooked bite-sized proportions.
  2. 99% of the meat eaten by modern humans is grown on a farm.
  3. The majority of meat eaters would be perfectly happy to eat good tasting meat if it were grown on a tree.

If you prefer to embrace your inner predatory instincts, I'm all for it. Heck, if there was an ice age or something, then I'd probably go look for some hunters to get some food. However, the predatory instinct does not justify people going to the store and buying pre-sliced meat. People go to the store and buy pre-sliced meat because of taste / culture / habit / etc.

Re:I would eat all of the above. (1)

Mike Schiraldi (18296) | more than 11 years ago | (#6321047)

Nah, that's just cause we're lazy. I don't have the time or equipment to butcher my own meat, but i bet it would be fun as a special event. Earlier this year i got to eat venison that came straight from the hunter, and there was a certain thrill to being "closer" to the hunt.

Great point about pepperoni/bugs, btw. It goes a long way towards helping me understand vegetarians.

Re:I would eat all of the above. (1)

ces (119879) | more than 11 years ago | (#6321109)

Most humans will never eat deer, because deer are not docile enought to be mass-produced on factory farms. I contend that the predatory instinct in humans is something that most people prefer to suppress.

Deer, along with ostrich, buffalo, emu, etc. is actually farm raised in the US. Almost any venison in a restaurant was raised on a farm. I've actually seen venison steaks for sale in a market before. Generally you only see this in fancy gourmet markets or in exotic meats stores, but it is there.

Re:I would eat all of the above. (1)

Nef (46782) | more than 11 years ago | (#6321280)

Most humans will never eat deer, because deer are not docile enought to be mass-produced on factory farms.

And I contend that someone here is misinformed. A quick google would find the following list right at the top:
Shaffer Farms [shafferfarms.com]
Marshall Green Deer Farm [vic.gov.au]
Ontario Elk & Deer Farmers [ontariodee...armers.com]
Adirondack Venison [avenison.com]
DeerFarms.com [deerfarms.com]

And that took all of 2 minutes to find and post. But my point is, if you think wild animals are not docile, you're not around them much. And conversely, if you think domesticated animals (e.g. Cattle, swine, chickens) are not still wild, you're even more mistaken. Ever seen someone mauled by a stampede? How about someone requiring 130 stitches, at the age of 7, from being attacked by chickens?

Don't get me wrong, I respect what you're trying to say, but I have to agree with the parent you replied to that Mankind as a whole shifted from a passive vegan-like state long ago and we are here ONLY because of luck and the fact that we stopped being the prey along time ago.

I'll leave you with one final point...and this to me is a big one. Recent studies indicate that the only reason humans were able to develop such large (comparatively) brains and overcome our physical limitations as a species is directly attributable to the change in diet experienced almost a million years past in the human evolutionary chain! Fat and protein are necessary to produce the relatively large energy requirements necessary to sustain such a large cortex, and you just can't get that from being a vegetarian/vegan!

Re:I would eat all of the above. (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6323459)

And I contend that someone here is misinformed. A quick google would find the following list right at the top ...

I should have been more clear when I said "factory farm". I didn't look at all the places you mentioned, but the few I looked at appeared to be relatively small family run farms that raise deer for meat. When I use the term "factory farm", I'm talking about the huge industrial farms that produce thousands and thousands and thousands of animals. I don't think there are any "factory farms" that produce deer.

Perhaps docile/wild has nothing to do with it. So what is it about deer? Not enough of a market? Bambi?

Fat and protein are necessary to produce the relatively large energy requirements necessary to sustain such a large cortex, and you just can't get that from being a vegetarian/vegan!

I don't think so ;-). My cortex feels fine.

Re:I would eat all of the above. (1)

Maeryk (87865) | more than 11 years ago | (#6328136)

Maybe I'm the wrong person for this poll. I have seriously considered if I ever get enough money, I'll have a nice wide pen where I can chase and kill the animals with various bladed weapons, then throw them on the BBQ. I was thinking cows, but they would be to slow and not fun. Maybe deer? I like to fight for my food. I haven't tasted deer meat though...is it any good? I know, I'm evil. You may now mark me as 'foe'. Move along.

Have you ever dealt with a threatened cow? Specifically, a Black Angus? If you end up with one, I think you will find it less than "slow and no fun".. hehe. Im not knocking your goals.. Im a little pissed that in my state you can hunt dear with a 12 gauge, but not a spear. Wheres the fun in that? But even a buck can put quite a hurtin on ya if you are within hooves/horns reach of it.

But Cows are anything but docile when directly threatened.. theres nothing like having 1500 lbs of pissed off beef coming right at you with serious attitude. Hell.. even a sufficiently annoyed Dorsett Ram will mess your day up if he corners faster than you do.

Maeryk

Re:I would eat all of the above. (1)

moncyb (456490) | more than 11 years ago | (#6329144)

I guess I was thinking deer would be smaller and more agile. If the day comes, I'll have to try both.

Im a little pissed that in my state you can hunt dear with a 12 gauge, but not a spear.

Them darn park wardens and their regulations. Once I was hunting buffalo with my shoulder mounted nuke, and they stopped me. Had a whole heard in my sights too!

More seriously, you may be on to something. I haven't been on a deer hunt, but I don't see much fun in waiting in bushes to shoot an animal two miles away. Maybe it's a cheap and easy way to get meat? Though I hear hunting licenses are expensive. Hmmm...maybe if I take all my clothes off and call myself "homo-sapien" they'll consider me a part of the wildlife. If that doesn't work, I'll just wear a bear suit.

Re:I would eat all of the above. (1)

glenebob (414078) | more than 11 years ago | (#6333391)

I was thinking I'd spend hunting season this year drinking animal beer and getting drunk, tearing up the roads in my 4x4 pickup, and hootin' and hollerin' my lungs out half the night like a dumbass and then sit around all afternoon with a hang over and bitch about the shortage of game in the area.

*smirk*

I consider myself (or I used to anyway) a pretty damn good shot with a high-powered rifle, and I've always wanted to go hunting and bring home a freezer full of deer or something. Every time hunting season rolls around, the above scenario is what I see. Pretty much ruins the whole thing. Hunting has become a red neck sporting event. It's even called a sport! So now, shooting animals for fun is a sport, and that part about feeding yourself and your family is just a pleasant side affect. I don't have a problem killing to eat, but I have a big problem with turning the event into an alternative for monday night football.

Hot dogs (1)

mobets (101759) | more than 11 years ago | (#6318174)

The only thing any of those might stop me from eating is a hot dog. They tast good, and I really don't want to know what is in them.

Re:Hot dogs (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6318441)

You already know what is in them, but you still eat them ;-). Trust me though -- nowadays, the difference between the contents of a hotdog and a McDonald's Hamburger is very minimal.

Re:Hot dogs (1)

ces (119879) | more than 11 years ago | (#6321150)

Trust me though -- nowadays, the difference between the contents of a hotdog and a McDonald's Hamburger is very minimal.

You assume most of us will actually eat hamburgers at McDonald's. I will admit to getting breakfast there when I'm on the road, but only because they have decent coffee and Starbuck's isn't everywhere yet.

I do like a good hotdog, however I usually either get sausages (Johnsonville, a local italian brand, etc.) or kosher beef franks. While I'm sure there are things in there I'd rather not think about I do know they are better than the typical "mystery meat" hotdog.

labeling (1)

lightcycle (649999) | more than 11 years ago | (#6318341)

I don't eat meat, you insensitive clod!
Regarding your question, I have small hopes for labelling to affect the choices non-vegetarians have made. In general, they very much know what animals they are eating, and what those animals looked like when they were infants. One of the things I find increasingly frightening with the world is the ability we get to shut the world out, and disregard things we don't want to see or know, be it meat or starving children.

Re:labeling (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6318409)

Regarding your question, I have small hopes for labelling to affect the choices non-vegetarians have made.

I'm not so sure. The non-vegetarian slashdotters that have posted so far say they would eat meat regardless of the labelling, but I don't think the general public would agree. I'm not suggesting the general public are all closet vegetarians, I'm suggesting that the general public fear changes on their meat labeling. In the short-term, the general public will choose non-cloned meat over cloned meat (if it is labeled). In the short-term, the general public will choose non-radiated meat over radiated meat (if it is labeled). I also believe the general public would avoid any of the labeling schemes I thought up for the poll.

Re:labeling (1)

lightcycle (649999) | more than 11 years ago | (#6319181)

I'd think the general public is sensitive to certain kinds of labeling, for instance in Sweden, where I live, i know that most people purchasing meat checks the labels to get domestically produced meat (because of the mad cow disease, belgian blue et al). Here, the labelling affects their shopping habits, but this is an issue of perceived personal health, ie fear of mad cow disease and genetically engineered mammals. The general public here will, on occasion change shopping habits due to emotional reasons, like buying meat based on the fact that the animals contained hasn't been transported across Europe in a living state. However, going from this to giving up meat completely is a task too steep for the majority of people to undertake, I'd think. There are quite a few in the general public that enjoy meat, and really couldn't care less what the animals they are eating once looked like.

Re:labeling (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6320423)

However, going from this to giving up meat completely is a task too steep for the majority of people to undertake, I'd think.

Agreed. It's also a bad idea for anyone to just outright stop eating meat. It's something that people should gradually do at their own pace. Start off by skipping McDonalds hamburgers.

Re:labeling (1)

xenocytekron (586678) | more than 11 years ago | (#6321646)

McDonald's food is pretty gross anyways, most of it at least :)

Re:labeling (1)

shamilton (619422) | more than 11 years ago | (#6322727)

You assume in error that the vegetarians are the educated ones, and the carnivores are ignorant. Well, most of us know exactly what we're eating, and those who don't probably wouldn't change.

I'm against animal cruelty as much as the next guy, but it comes down to this: through the entire existence of Life itself, those creatures that have cared more about themselves than others have done a better job of not dying. Skip ahead a few years, and you arrive at me. Sucks to be those animals, but I'm not going to not eat them just out of empathy. I can't justify this, and call me a monster, but that's just how I am.

Most of the vegetarian arguments are full of holes, and the only one I honestly support is "I don't like meat." Fair enough.

But the arguments I hear the most are "Animals are living, feeling beings! It's wrong to eat them!"

Do you think they wouldn't eat you? I mean, the carnivores. And they are living and feeling, right? So they can't plead ignorance.

And, "Meat's unhealthy. It leads to heart disease."

Bullshit. Any diet will be healthy or unhealthy depending on how much effort you put into it. In many cases, I see vegetarians view their diet as a license to eat, and end up morbidly obese. And obesity leads to heart disease.

I'm not trying to convert anybody, and I am not blind enough to think facts are going to change anybody's opinion on this matter. But two can play at the "presenting facts" game.

Re:labeling (1)

shamilton (619422) | more than 11 years ago | (#6322739)

Whoops, I read "small" as "some" in your post. Guess I look like a condescending ass now.

Re:labeling (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6323357)

Most of the vegetarian arguments are full of holes, and the only one I honestly support is "I don't like meat." Fair enough.

Here's a few reasons I'd prefer for you to be a vegetarian:

  1. Less cruelty to animals.
  2. The more vegetarians there are, the more vegetarian choices there will be at restaurants.

If you truly abhor the choice of vegetarianism in your life, then I still request that you avoid animal products "grown" at factory farms.

Any diet will be healthy or unhealthy depending on how much effort you put into it. In many cases, I see vegetarians view their diet as a license to eat, and end up morbidly obese. And obesity leads to heart disease.

Agreed! For a while, I thought being a vegetarian was going to keep my waistline trim, but then I came across this page [bigfatblog.com] . Overall, I think becoming a vegetarian did improve my health, but it didn't give me a license to eat a bag of potato chips every day.

Re:labeling (1)

shamilton (619422) | more than 11 years ago | (#6325842)

Well, does my being sverely partial to organic, free-range meat make me any less of a terrible guy? I really have no idea how much difference that makes in the consumed animals' lives, but they are certainly far more tasty.

Re:labeling (1)

maxume (22995) | more than 11 years ago | (#6335588)

The big problem with animal farming isn't really that it is cruel to the animals. They are getting cut up and then chewed, there doesn't seem to be much worse you could do...


The problem that people should have with animal farms is the massive amount of effluent generated. Chicken and pig warehouses are massive sources of pollution and are creating signifigant problems in many of our waterways.

It is hard to take the cruelty argument outside the realm of personal opinion. If you think a chicken suffers, I probably won't be able to change your mind, and you probably won't be able to change my mind that the chicken is simply experiencing damage, and is instinctually avoiding it. The argument that massive damage is being done to our environment due to animal farming is a little more factual, more cut and dried. It is difficult to contest.

On that note, the only thing I feel bad about is that I don't manage to kill very much of the meat I eat. Seems inconsistant.

Of course the people I have a real problem with are the damn bottled water drinkers. It is more expensive, plus precious fuel was wasted shipping it around. Tap water is, in the US, as a rule, safe. And it has ionic florine in it, which will give you nice healthy teeth.

I'm an omnivore, you insensitive clod! :-) (1)

MonTemplar (174120) | more than 11 years ago | (#6318700)

Having said that, I will happily tuck into 'veggie' meals. Even tofu holds no fear for me. Oh, and I go for free-range or organically-produced meat wherever possible.

Re:I'm an omnivore, you insensitive clod! :-) (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6320367)

It's my belief that all humans are biologically omnivores [vrg.org] . Being an omnivore has its evolutionary advantages. It gives us the option to choose.

I love tofu.

How quaint.... (1)

madmarcel (610409) | more than 11 years ago | (#6318845)

Are you trying to tell me that if you buy (for example) sausages in America, that it does not list in the ingredients what type of meat is contained within?

Pork Sausages, ingredients:
Sawdust, flavour-enhancer, spices, salt, mutton, mutton, mutton, pork.

I don't know about you, but around here EVERYTHING contains mutton. Yuch. I'd be thrilled if they would put pictures of the relevant animals used on the packaging. It would explain a lot. (I'd also expect a fair few products to end up with pictures of cat and dogs on them...but thats another story ;)

But eh, to answer your question, I know exactly what I'm eating, and it has no effect on MY copious consumption of meat.
Options A, B, C, D and F are perfectly acceptable to me. Being able to see what specific individual animal the meat came from would probably increase my consumption of meat :)

"Hey kids look, today we are eating Bessie the cow! That's her in the picture there, see how healthy and fat she looks!"

Re:How quaint.... (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6320308)

Are you trying to tell me that if you buy (for example) sausages in America, that it does not list in the ingredients what type of meat is contained within?

I'm not completely sure it is listed (I don't buy meat), but I suspect it is. I know for sure, though, that it isn't usually written in a half-inch size font.

"Hey kids look, today we are eating Bessie the cow! That's her in the picture there, see how healthy and fat she looks!"

The healthy and fat looking cows would go for a premium that most consumers wouldn't be prepared to pay. Most parents feed their children the cheap meat, and only eat the premium meat when the children are with the babysitter.

Re:How quaint.... (1)

ces (119879) | more than 11 years ago | (#6321288)

The healthy and fat looking cows would go for a premium that most consumers wouldn't be prepared to pay. Most parents feed their children the cheap meat, and only eat the premium meat when the children are with the babysitter.

I think that depends somewhat. The cheap meat isn't always the lowest quality either. Very often it is simply a less-popular cut or in a form considered less convienient. For example whole chickens are typically cheaper than boneless skinless breasts. Also consider the cost differences between the different types of meat. Typically seafood is the most expensive, then lamb, then beef, then pork, then chicken. It doesn't mean that beef is higher quality than chicken, just that per-pound in the form purchased chicken is cheaper to produce.

Another example is that around here the locally produced chicken is regularly on sale for less than the "southern grown" chicken from Tyson, Purdue and the like. The fancy local free-range organic feed chicken also goes on sale often and is usually the cheapest when it does.

My parents would buy what they wanted depending on their mood and budget. When my dad wanted a treat he'd get porterhouse steaks, when he was broke we'd get whatever was on sale (typically tuna or chicken). When we had a babysitter (other than going to my grandparents) we'd usually have something easy to cook or order pizza out so my parents wouldn't have to worry about the sitter destroying the kitchen.

Re:How quaint.... (1)

ces (119879) | more than 11 years ago | (#6321192)

Are you trying to tell me that if you buy (for example) sausages in America, that it does not list in the ingredients what type of meat is contained within?

Pork Sausages, ingredients:
Sawdust, flavour-enhancer, spices, salt, mutton, mutton, mutton, pork.


Looks like a typical US hotdog label except it would be chicken instead of mutton, and would have "MSG, high fructose corn syrup, preservatives, artificial color, artificial flavor, and nitrates" as well.

meat! (1)

JWSmythe (446288) | more than 11 years ago | (#6319475)

I guess I'd be completely unaffected by extra labeling.. I grew up on a farm, so we had animals that we raised from birth to slaughter. It's part of what gets done. Instead of hunting the food down, like our ancestors did, they grow up on the confines of a small farm. Well, small as farms go, large for the space they wander.

Every time someone asks me how I can eat rare steak, I try to help them understand, in our not too distant past, there were no nuts&berry vegetarian's. Tribes of humans (ya, even Europeans were tribes thousands of years ago) would go out, hunt down whatever animals they could catch, and eat them. As time has gone on, we began actually cooking the meat. If you think about it, cooking meat can't be the "right" way to do things. Of all the species of animals on this planet, we're the only one that cooks. The rest of them get on pretty well eating on a regular basis.

I don't think any time in the near future, I'll have to fight my cats over a squirrel kill, but when Bush finishes destroying Western Civilization, I may be living in the woods, hunting down deer with sharpened sticks. I'll still feed the cats leftovers though. They'd probably appreciate the fresh deer meet a whole lot more than a can of processed generic meat stuffs.

Re:meat! (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6319800)

I guess I'd be completely unaffected by extra labeling.. I grew up on a farm, so we had animals that we raised from birth to slaughter.

If I grew up on a farm such as you did, I'd probably not be a vegetarian today. In most likelihood, I'd have grown accustomed to the slaughtering method, and it wouldn't bother me. Humans can get used to and accept anything, especially if they are introduced to the concept at an early age. If I was born on a farm that regularly slaughtered humans, cats, and dogs for human consumption, I'm sure I'd be eating humans, cats, and dogs today.

If you think about it, cooking meat can't be the "right" way to do things. Of all the species of animals on this planet, we're the only one that cooks.

I agree with you there. In modern times, though, if you don't cook your meat, you are much more likely to be infected by bacteria. So I'm told by the media.

Re:meat! (1)

ces (119879) | more than 11 years ago | (#6321348)

I agree with you there. In modern times, though, if you don't cook your meat, you are much more likely to be infected by bacteria. So I'm told by the media.

Yes and no. If you kill meat yourself and butcher it properly there is very little risk of anything other than trichinosis from certain animals like bear(btw most trichinosis cases in the US are from game and not pork nowdays).

You can even eat pre-packaged meat from the store raw depending on the meat and the cut. With seafood or whole cuts of meat the risk is very low as there is either little contamination or it can be washed off. Ground meat and poultry should probably be fully cooked as the risk is much higher. For what its worth I've only ever gotten food poisoning from improperly cooked or handled poultry.

Now if you excuse me I think I'll go make some steak tartar. (mmm, raw beef!)

Re:meat! (1)

glenebob (414078) | more than 11 years ago | (#6333595)

> if you don't cook your meat, you
> are much more likely to be infected
> by bacteria

I'm pretty sure that's the result of thousands of years of evolution, or whatever it is in that time frame, lessening our ability to eat bacteria, since we started cooking meat (which I'm pretty sure we started because it tastes better). An animal can eat meat that would kill you dead, without so much as a tummy ache. I doubt that we were always so weak in the stomach.

That said, I'd prefer to cook anyway. The taste is far better (I've nibbled raw beef and it's pretty blah tasting). There isn't anything quite like the smell of a steak in the BBQ, and that sizzle if pleasant as well :-) Plus, it's a good reason to stand around an open fire (no propane, thankyou very little) and drink beer and grunt a bit. Mmmm I'm getting hungry!

Re:meat! (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336327)

I'm pretty sure that's the result of thousands of years of evolution, or whatever it is in that time frame, lessening our ability to eat bacteria, since we started cooking meat

I'm more inclined to think the problem is due to factory farming. This problem would be enhanced if animals are cloned. With less diversity, and extremely close conditions, viruses and bacteria will spread like there's no tomorrow. The slaughtering, packing, and shipping methods of the 21st century are also ticking time bombs.

There are huge national meat recalls on the order of once per month or more, and that's just the ones we hear about. Here's the latest ones that made it to the front page of various newspapers [google.com] . Check your labels! Maybe that sizzling sound on the grill is the sound of screaming bacteria ;-).

Re:meat! (1)

glenebob (414078) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336996)

But that same factory packed meat won't kill my dog. OK, I don't feed him raw meat, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't hurt him.

And I'm having a problem believing modern factory packed meat is the problem. You're trying to tell me that killing a wild animal in the forest would be cleaner (to the point of being safe to eat raw). Farm animals are kept very healthy. Wild animals carry parasites and deseases and all sorts of bad stuff. They eat things you wouldn't want to know about, nor would I. Farm animals are fed very consistently with ordinary stuff - corn, oats, etc.

Now go back 50,000 years and tell me that the process of killing an animal and dragging it piece by piece back to camp over miles of terrain, without any sort of refrigeration or any knowledge even of the existence of bacteria, could possibly be cleaner than a modern factory farm. That's a bit tough to stomach, if you'll pardon the pun.

Now if you want to tell me that meat packing plants around the turn of the 20th century were just big bacteria breeding farms, that I would believe. A lot has changed since then.

I think you're just trying to make excuses for being vegetarian. Why make excuses? It's you're choice, nobody cares whether you eat dead cows or not (I don't anyway). But I doubt that you decided to go vegan because your heard about some meat recalls; that would just be over-reacting.

Re:meat! (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6381229)

Now if you want to tell me that meat packing plants around the turn of the 20th century were just big bacteria breeding farms, that I would believe. A lot has changed since then.

If you really believe things have changed that much for the better, I recommend you read Fast Food Nation [amazon.com] . The book is very popular, and I'm sure is partially responsible for some of the changes currently happening in the industry. The book is very educational, and extremely entertaining to read.

I'm willing to bet McDonald's meat contains way more feces than the meat consumed by humans 50,000 years ago. Factory farm conditions must and will improve over the next decade.

I think you're just trying to make excuses for being vegetarian.

I'll be the first to say that I am not a vegetarian for purely logical reasons. I am biologically an omnivore, but I still prefer to be a vegetarian. It's not a black and white issue for me. I choose not to eat meat because I don't have to.

the "Why Vegan?" Pamphlet... (1)

mekkab (133181) | more than 11 years ago | (#6319796)

Here it is, WHY VEGAN? [vegan-info.com]
Note, the first page is okay, but once you click the "Transformation of animals into food" link, it get graphic- just a warning for the squeamish.

So I had that pamphlet sitting in my room all through college (I used to run with the Vegetarian crew, cuz they were cool and MOSTLY because they would cook scrumptious things for me!)- cuz I thought it was incredible in its graphicness. That didn't stop me from eating COw, pork, tripe, tendon, and chickens feet, but it balanced out my awareness.

I think a great example (on a lesser scale) is turkey/chicken work- when you have the majority of the bird in front of you (thankfully, de-feathered, cuz that would be a bitch)- you still have the neck to deal with and all that dismemberment. And at that time it isn't just taking apart a dead animal, its the time your chef's knife sings a song of this body on the cutting block. I realize thats a bit morbid, but for me it becomes "Look at me use this tool to carve this body."

Maybe its a good thing I'm not having kids?

Re:the "Why Vegan?" Pamphlet... (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6319939)

In regards to the website you mentioned, factory farming animals is certainly disgusting.

I rarely attempt to persuade anyone else to become a vegetarian, because I consider it to be a personal choice. There is no perfect diet for humans that causes absolutely no suffering to anything else. Every single vegetarian/vegan/etc that says that their eating habits are somehow better than someone else's eating habits is living in a fantasy world. In the real world, things aren't black and white. The real world is dirty, bloody, and often covered in mucous.

Re:the "Why Vegan?" Pamphlet... (1)

mekkab (133181) | more than 11 years ago | (#6321772)

that reminds me...
Whole foods (a.k.a. Fresh Fields) has cruelty free veal- no shit. Well, I mean, they kill 'em in the end, BUT they don't keep them in boxes!

My Sisters Fiance is a store manager and he's even been to the farms.

Kill it... (1)

MagnetarJones (447059) | more than 11 years ago | (#6319798)

and Grill It!!

Growing Animals for food is no different than growing Vegetables for food, IMO.

Re:Kill it... (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6319880)

It's all a matter of personal opinion, which has usually been shaped by your personal experiences. IMO, growing animals for food should be done differently than growing plants for food.

By all means, if you kill it yourself, and you grill it yourself, then you are in many ways a better person than I.

Re:Kill it... (1)

ces (119879) | more than 11 years ago | (#6321372)

Ted Nugent is the man!

I just love how his pro-gun, pro-hunting, pro-meat views seem to give many others in the entertainment industry fits.

wow! (1)

XO (250276) | more than 11 years ago | (#6320430)

Thanks for the article on the Nuge! Although I've only met him a few times (he has an incredible memory for people!), he's basically treated like family.. within my family. lol

Everyone loves him, but my dad, who is major anti-hunting for some unknown reason.

Obviously Ted stands for a lot more than just hunting though - he is about the right to bear arms, he is about freedom in many different ways - not just about killing animals for sport. In fact, he's not about that at all.

And I'm very impressed that you can find yourself co-existing peacefully with this man.

Kudos to you and the Nuge. :)

(I ran into him at a gas station here, about 3 months before the New Year's Bash 1999/2000, and tried to beg tickets off him.. he said "Eric.. I can't even get the damn things anymore!" otherwise me and my step-bro would've probably had as many people as we wanted in there.. I did finally get tickets but it was nosebleed! ugh!)

Re:wow! (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6320577)

Thanks for the article on the Nuge!

You're welcome :). To be honest, I read the article about a year ago, and I don't remember all of it. But I do remember that I agreed with a lot of stuff that he said. He hates McDonalds for all the right reasons.

Quite a remarkable person. I do not agree with everything he says, but he makes really really good arguments.

Re:wow! (1)

XO (250276) | more than 11 years ago | (#6320609)

Sometimes he can just be an absolute pig of a man (see if you can find sometime, the story he tells about the night he wrote the song Wango Tango), but he's definitely taken his part of the world in his own way. Charismatic as all get out, I think my dad would even like him, but the step-brother can't get my dad to meet him.. lol

(my step-brother works at a gun shop and sells guns to Ted.. this is how I know him.. and he owns a house that my ex- used to live next door to, so she knew him as well.. it's really quite the small world)

I. None of the above (1)

ces (119879) | more than 11 years ago | (#6321394)

I doubt any of this would dissuade me from eating any form of meat.

I might buy free-range and organic meats more often but that is about it.

Re:I. None of the above (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6323496)

If you choose "none of the above", then you would purchase meat that had a picture of a cow sitting on a toilet reading pornography. ;-)

Here is a question to ponder: (1)

confused philosopher (666299) | more than 11 years ago | (#6323477)

If God didn't want us to eat animals,

then why did He make them out of meat, and make them soooooo tasty?

Re:Here is a question to ponder: (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6323511)

Perhaps God made us omnivorians so we would have the opportunity to choose.

Re:Here is a question to ponder: (1)

confused philosopher (666299) | more than 11 years ago | (#6323663)

Mary had a little lamb...

But I ate it.

*Burp!*

Re:Here is a question to ponder: (1)

Maeryk (87865) | more than 11 years ago | (#6328212)

Perhaps God made us omnivorians so we would have the opportunity to choose

BINGO! The gal nails it on the head. An all red meat diet is not good for you. But I _defy_ any vegan/vegetarian/whatever to go to the "breadbasket" of america.. (Hell.. go ANYWHERE) and subsist entirely off the land, without eating ANY meat, and be healthy. Good luck!

There are a lot of myths about meat.. like the heart disease one.. (not proven.. and atkins diet people have only been at it for @ 20 years.. not long enough for the AMA to say "Sure.. Meat can be good for you.. its sugars thats evil!", even though they okayed Tylenol as "safe" in under 3). Or the "Cholestorol" one.. (so how come many vegetarians have a higher level of cholesterol than I, an affirmed meat eater have? Wouldnt have ANYTHING to do with all the breads and flours and nasty starchy sugars would it? Nahh..)

But theres an equal number of myths about Vegetarianism..like its good for you. It may be, if done right.. but finding people who do it "right" is the tricky part. Read the ingredients on a veggie burger or veggie hotdog (which I dont think vegetarians should be eating anyway.. you dont wanna eat meat, fine, but dont eat "fake" meat either, dammit! :P ).. if you cant pronounce the thing in the ingredients, you probably shouldnt be eating it. Sure.. great.. you arent eating meat.. but you _are_ eating a bunch of chemicals which will see too it that 10 years after your death, when they exhume you to give the grave to the next rentor, you will look much like you did when you went in.

Eh.. I'll stick with meat and organic vegetables, thanks.. nicely balanced, and good for me, in moderation.

Maeryk

Re:Here is a question to ponder: (1)

glenebob (414078) | more than 11 years ago | (#6333758)

>> veggie burger or veggie hotdog (which I dont
>> think vegetarians should be eating anyway...

Oh how I agree with that one! My ex's parents were vegetarians, and half of what they ate was veggie this and veggie that. It drove me nuts! The stuff doesn't taste much like meat, that's for damn sure, and it doesn't fill you up like meat either. If you're going to be a vegetarian, EAT VEGETABLE. If you want to taste meat, then EAT MEAT.

Re:Here is a question to ponder: (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336744)

If you're going to be a vegetarian, EAT VEGETABLE. If you want to taste meat, then EAT MEAT.

Ok.

Dude.

BTW, why do non-vegetarians shape their meat into small vegetable-like proportions? Hot dogs? Chicken nuggets? Buffalo wings? If you truly like hot dogs, then you should be eating them in their natural anus-form. Stop shaping them into the shape of carrots. Thank you.

Re:Here is a question to ponder: (1)

glenebob (414078) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336932)

I've probably been trolled, but... You're being rediculous. Hot dogs are shaped like they are because they're a sausage, which is made (originally) by filling sections of intestine with ground animal parts. Not such a bad idea, if it gets the less desirable parts (such as the anus your refer to) eaten. Dead animals are more scarce than veggies and so it makes sense to use *all* of the animal, not just the yummiest parts. At what point do you propose the sausage was ever meant to look like a carrot? And if you think they taste even remotely like a carrot, I'd hate to see the carrots you're eating. You're comparing... er... apples to oranges... And what exactly are buffalo wings and chicken nuggets supposed to look/taste like?

Vegetarian food gets a bad name because of that fake stuff, much like plastic gets a bad name by being turned into fake leather and other things. Plastic has plenty of good uses that don't involve mimicing other things, and vegetarian food, I would think, is just fine on its own. If you can't eat vegan without fooling your mouth into thinking your eating meat, why do it?

You make it sound like we're a bunch of vegetarians that decided to eat meat for health reasons or something.

You know, I would think an anus would be pretty rubbery... *grin* Could be fun at the dinner table though... Hey, look in my mouth! That could be an interesting food fight.

Re:Here is a question to ponder: (1)

evil_toy_maker (614007) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336997)

L M A O

All I have to say is... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6325775)

"I'm a cow" [drghetto.com]

Here's a tidbit... (1)

ivan256 (17499) | more than 11 years ago | (#6330980)

My sister has a dog. Said dog like typical doggie style (Hey, stay focused!) treats and toys. In particular Cooper (that's the dog's name) likes raw-hide chips. He can make one totally soggy in about five minutes and make it disappear in ten. This means my sister purchases raw-hide chips in industrial size bags. These bags used to say "Made with real cow-hide" on them in big excited letters. Yesterday I visited my sister a caught a glimpse of Cooper's latest bag of chips. The new packaging doesn't say "raw-hide" or "cow-hide" on it anywhere anymore. It now says "beef-hide".

--

If people don't know what animals their meat comes from, what are we teaching them in school?

Re:Here's a tidbit... (1)

Elwood P Dowd (16933) | more than 11 years ago | (#6334898)

What, cows are made of beef?

How come we don't eat them all?

You asked what children are learning in school :) (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336416)


The film starts. "The Meat Council Presents: `Meat and You: Partners in Freedom'. Number 3F03 [slashdot.org] in the `Resistance is Useless' series." Open on
cattle country.

Troy: Nothing beats a stroll in cattle country. Hi, I'm Troy McClure.
You may remember me from such educational films as "Two Minus
Three Equals Negative Fun" and "Firecrackers: The Silent Killer".
Jimmy: Mr. McClure?
Troy: Oh! Hello Bobby.

Jimmy: Jimmy. I'm curious as to how meat gets from the ranch to my
stomach.
Troy: Whoa, whoa, whoa! Slow down Jimmy. You just asked a mouthful. It all starts here, in the high density feed lot. Then, when the cattle are just right [swipes his finger along the top of a cow and licks it] Yum...it's time for them to graduate from Bovine University.

A klaxon blares out a siren and the cattle begin moving up a conveyor
belt into the meat packing plant.

Troy: Come on Jimmy, let's take a peek at the killing floor.
Jimmy: Ohhh!
Troy: Don't let the name throw you Jimmy. It's not really a floor,
it's more of a steel grating that allows material to sluice through so it can be collected and exported.

They walk throught the door of the plant accompanied by the sounds of moo-ing and startled cows. Electricity noise sparks in the background as the camera pans down the length of the factory to a truck marked "Meat For You" being loaded with raw chunks of meat. Troy and Jimmy emerge, with Jimmy visibly pale and queasy.


Troy: Gettin hungry Jimmy?
Jimmy: Uhh, Mr. McClure? I have a crazy friend who says its wrong
to eat meat. Is he crazy?
Troy: Nooo, just ignorant. You see your crazy friend never heard
of "The Food Chain". [Flash to a picture of "Food Chain",
with all animals and arrows pointing to a silhouette of a
human.
] Just ask this scientician.
Scientician: [Looking up from a microscope.] Uhhh...
Troy: He'll tell you that, in nature, one creature invariably
eats another creature to survive.
[Images of various wild carnivores attacking and eating
others appear.
]
Don't kid yourself Jimmy. If a cow ever got the chance,
he'd eat you and everyone you care about! [Image of a cow
quietly chewing cud.
]
Jimmy: Wow, Mr. McClure. I was a grade A moron to ever question
eating meat.
Troy: [Laughs.] Yes you were Jimmy, yes you were. [Briskly rubs
his hand on Jimmy's head.
]
Jimmy: [Timid] Uhh...you're hurting me.
-- Troy McClure, the silent hurter, "Lisa the Vegetarian"


Film's over.

Lisa: They can't seriously expect us to swallow that tripe.
Skinner: Now as a special treat courtesy of our friends at the Meat
Council, please help yourself to this tripe. [Class cheers and
runs to table loaded with tripe.
]
Lisa: Stop it Stop IT! Don't you realize you've just been
brainwashed by corporate propaganda?
Janie: Hmmph, apparently my crazy friend here hasn't heard of the food
chain.
Uter: Yeah, Lisa's a grade A moron!
Ralph: When I grow up, I'm going to go to Bovine University.

I'm not sure I see the point (1)

Mannerism (188292) | more than 11 years ago | (#6333122)

Are you trying to establish whether people would develop some sort of ethical objection to eating meat if they were presented with labels that made them think about what they're eating and how it's prepared, or merely whether they'd experience a strong enough visceral reaction to put them off meat until such time as they became desensitized?

I think many people would have a relatively hard time consuming an animal that they'd seen slaughtered and butchered compared to consuming the same animal if it were presented to them initially as, say, a hamburger. I don't necessarily mean that modern, industrial slaughter has to be observed for this to take place...lots of people don't like to see a fish caught, clubbed to death, scaled, cleaned, and filleted in the typical camping-trip/fisherman kinda way, but they sure like eating the results. Likewise, lots of people don't like seeing detailed videotapes of a lion chasing down and viciously killing and consuming a terrified gazelle, but they're all for lions roaming free. There's no morality here, it's simply an aversion to blood 'n guts. To some degree it's anthropomorphic, too (e.g., baby cow pictures, animals with names, the thought: "what if I were that gazelle?"). You'd get used to it after a while, but in our society, you simply don't have to be exposed to it in order to eat, so most of us choose not to.

you left out a choice (1)

Darth (29071) | more than 11 years ago | (#6333814)

you left out a choice for those of us who would eat the food regardless of any labels such as those. I am well aware of where the chicken i just ate came from and what the animal looks like. I used to have a pet hen. (we found it trapped and hurt after a storm). I think it's important for people to recognise and appreciate where their food is coming from, but i dont necessarily think that should stop them from eating.

I have a question for you, though. This isnt supposed to be a belligerent question so please dont take it as an attack on vegetarians.
Why distinguish between the lives of animals and the lives of plants?

It seems to me that most vegetarians who are vegetarian for moral reasons (at least the ones i have talked to) think the lives of animals are more important than the lives of plants. To me the distinction seems to be that the lives of plants are more alien to what we think of as life, so it's more acceptable to eat them.

regardless of what you are eating, i think it is important to recognise you are eating a formerly living thing that is dead so that you can continue living.

With respect to the cloning and genetically altered food; they should be labeled. People have a right to know what they are eating. If nobody wants to eat cloned meat (irrespective of any medical issues involving it), then the market has spoken. They shouldnt hide the nature of what they are selling, they should educate the consumer to it's benefits and make a compelling argument for it's use.

Re:you left out a choice (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336502)

Why distinguish between the lives of animals and the lives of plants?

For me, it's an obvious distinction. If I can imagine being something, then I try not to cause it unnecessary pain. I can empathize with a cow, chicken, pig, monkey, etc, but I can't empathize with a carrot, tree, head of lettuce, soybean, etc. Simple.

There are many many shades of gray, but I rarely need to deal with them. Can I empathize with an insect / spider? Not really. If an army of ants storms through my house, then it's me against them, and I will hopefully win the battle to the death. Fish are a shade of gray for me. Recent studies have suggested fish feel pain in nearly the same way as mammals. Lucky for me, I don't need to deal with the ethics of the situation in a logical way, because I don't like the taste of fish very much, and I think most crustacions look like spiders. Eww.

Anyone who empathizes with all living things in the exact same way is either severely autistic, or a homicidal maniac.

People have a right to know what they are eating.

Where do you draw the line? Maybe they should list the living conditions of the animal contained within the package? Some people would say that meat is meat, and it doesn't need any more labeling.

Re:you left out a choice (1)

glenebob (414078) | more than 11 years ago | (#6337163)

One way to interpret what you say here is that you might (you're vegetarian, pretend you were omniverous for a moment) eat an animal that is ugly, but not one that you find cute, or that you find creepy looking. Does the ugly animal, or the dumb animal, or the animal you're unable to empathize with, not bleed just like any other? In other words, what has you're particular ability to empathize have to do with the worthiness of a particular animal over any other?

I've tried to draw a parallel between all animals and all plants too, but that one doesn't work at all. As far as we can tell, a plant has exactly as much awareness as your average rock, so it's not that we can't empathize with a plant, it's that there just isn't anything to empathize with.

As far as bugs go, I even empathize with them somewhat. Now, like you, if an army of ants invades the house, it's war. But I often go out of my way to spare a harmless bug. I sometimes haul spiders outside instead of squishing them (I like spiders :-) I let bugs crawl around on me sometimes, because hey, who is he hurting? The point is, I don't believe there is much of anything going on in that little bug brain, but I see no need to needlessly harm living things, even if they do appear rediculously inferior.

I rationalize the eating of dead animals by believing that since my body is designed (or whatever) to process meat, the death of animals is required to sustain my life, and I will harm things if there is sufficient need (me being hungry is a pretty compelling need).

One of the most disgusting displays of raw ignorance I've ever seen is catch and release fishing. I don't care how grey a fish is, that's seriously heartless. When the need to prove you have a big penis outweighs the well being of living things, you've gone too far. I say we should open shoot and release hunting on catch and release fishermen.

So which am I? Heartless bastard, or bug hugging whimp? :-)

Re:you left out a choice (1)

BigBadBri (595126) | more than 11 years ago | (#6354843)

One of the most disgusting displays of raw ignorance I've ever seen is catch and release fishing.

Amen to that.

If you're going to drag an animal out of its habitat with a fscking big hook in its mouth, at least have the courtresy to eat it.

We call it 'coarse fishing' in the UK - 'coarse' about sums it up.

Re:you left out a choice (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6381288)

In other words, what has you're particular ability to empathize have to do with the worthiness of a particular animal over any other?

For me, there isn't anything logical about it. If I can't imagine being a particular animal, then it's impossible to feel sorry for it. I can easily imagine being any mammal or bird (regardless of whether it is "ugly").

Everyone has their own ever-changing empathetic boundaries. Some people empathize with cats and dogs, and other people empathize with cows, and you are a bug hugging whimp :).

Re:you left out a choice (1)

Darth (29071) | more than 11 years ago | (#6342242)

For me, it's an obvious distinction. If I can imagine being something, then I try not to cause it unnecessary pain. I can empathize with a cow, chicken, pig, monkey, etc, but I can't empathize with a carrot, tree, head of lettuce, soybean, etc. Simple.
fair enough. This explanation runs somewhat parallel to my hypothesis that it is because plants are more alien to us.
I dont necessarily empathize with plants, I just consider them equal, but different, compared to animals (and humans, for that matter).
I also dont get angry or upset when animals take out humans. When people get eaten by sharks, i consider that fair game too.
Fundamentally, if it's alive, it's potentially food for something; and i'm ok with that.
I tend to draw the line at cannibalism, though. regardless of if it's a human or an animal practising cannibalism, i think that's just a bad idea. (Kuru and mad cow disease are the results of cannibalism).

Maybe they should list the living conditions of the animal contained within the package?
Lots of free range meats are labeled with the living conditions of the animal and many people do take that into consideration when buying meat. Personally, I prefer free range animals. I think animals, even ones i intend to eat, should be treated with respect during their lives. (to me, killing them for food isnt disrespect. killing them for a trophy, however, is.)

Some people would say that meat is meat, and it doesn't need any more labeling.
Yeah, but once you start jacking with it on a genetic level, it's not really meat in the traditional definition of meat. It's a hybrid of meat and whatever else you put in it. Calling it meat at that point is misleading and seems like it should be considered false advertising.

Family friends (1)

Elwood P Dowd (16933) | more than 11 years ago | (#6334960)

My parents had some friends from college (hippies) who now live on a small family farm. We went to visit their farm once when I was 8 or so. We had pork for dinner, and one of the kids in the other family asked their mom which pig they were eating. Their mom replied with a proper name. My mom said, "Oh weird. You knew the pig that you're eating?"

The kid said, "Yeah. I can't imagine eating an animal that I didn't know."

People don't rationalize eating meat by denying that animals have intelligence or cuteness, or whatever. People rationalize eating meat because it's tasty, and it's what we were built to do. Sure, labels might change our behavior in some minor but statistically significant manner, but it certainly wouldn't stop me from eating meat.

Re:Family friends (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336580)

People rationalize eating meat because it's tasty, and it's what we were built to do.

We were built with the option to choose. The human body is amazing. You can stick meat in it, and you'll stay alive. You can also just stick vegetables in it, and you'll still stay alive and healthy.

When I live in a society in which my vegetable choices are nearly unlimited, then I choose to not feel even the tiniest pang of guilt from eating an animal. For me, not eating meat is a luxury.

Re:Family friends (1)

BigBadBri (595126) | more than 11 years ago | (#6354807)

I love meat.

I also love fresh vegetables, with the emphasis on fresh.

Pretty soon, my broad beans are going to be ready (it's good - it's about an 8 week season, wit ha couple of good feeds per week), followed by the runner beans.

I'll be eating various preparations of bean for a couple of months, and when I'm eating them I won't miss the meat.

But come September, when the fresh pulses no longer grow in the garden, I'll not enjoy the vegetables so much.

The weird thing is, that the best meat is not fresh (it's hung for a while, depending on the animal), but the best vegetables are straight off the plant.

Mmmmm - I'll dream of fresh bean soup tonight.

Re:Family friends (1)

smeat (18128) | more than 11 years ago | (#6398780)

From everything that I have read on human nutrition there are two essential amino acids that are not found in very high levels in plants. How do you aquire these if you are not eating any animal products? From what I have been able to gather you are not a vegan, therefore you are getting these amino acids from other animal sources. The only reason you are able to not eat meat is because in our industrial society we have other animal products to fulfill your amino acid needs.

Link to nutrition article. [rcn.com]

Re:Family friends (1)

$$$$$exyGal (638164) | more than 11 years ago | (#6401285)

Most vegetarians I know actually pay attention to the food they eat. As a result, they are very careful about obtaining and absorbing all of the essential nutrients required for their own health. Being a vegetarian does not make you healthy, but the process of converting to a vegetarian will likely open your eyes to nutrition and therefore make you healthier.

That has been my own experience as well. I look at labels and actually read what is in my products, and I try to put stuff into my body that my body wants. I am not a nutritionist, so it's possible that I am consistently missing some essential ingredient, but I doubt it. It's much more likely that my non-vegetarian friends aren't getting enough leafy green vegetables :).

The only reason you are able to not eat meat is because in our industrial society we have other animal products to fulfill your amino acid needs.

That is partially true. That is one reason I am able to not eat meat. Like I said, I am not a nutritionist, but I do know that a huge proportion of humans in this world do not eat any animal products, and they are living just fine. Most of those humans live in non-western cultures which simply eat off of the land rather than TV dinners.

I'll end with this: there is a ton of information I do not know about human nutrition, but there are a ton of other humans in the vegan community that do know about human nutrition. If they tell me I need to get essential nutrient #89,102,301 from the hide of a water snake or my small intestine will slowly disintegrate over the course of 35 years, then I will start wolfing down water snake hides. I'm lucky this has never happened. There is always a vegan solution that works. For me, being a vegetarian is a luxury.

Better late than never (1)

bethanie (675210) | more than 11 years ago | (#6359693)

I'm late coming to this thread, so it will probably be overlooked...

But for what it's worth, as we go by the meat counter in the store, my daughter and I make the animal noises of each of the different kinds of meat that are there (e.g., pork is "oink oink oink", beef is "moooo", etc.). And yes, we buy it and cook it and eat it.

I think it's important for her to know that her food is coming from animals that were once alive, but it's also important for her to understand her prominence at the upper eschelons of the food chain.

For better or worse...

....Bethanie....

P.S. I was *shocked* that you linked to my comment! But it came from the heart, so that's cool. Thanks!
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