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Why i argue

Chacham (981) writes | more than 11 years ago

User Journal 21

I argue a lot. People know that. Or at least i *think* they do.

Recently, in a newgropup someone said to me:

You can redefine anything you want according to your personal definition, and be right. But don't expect such practices to help you have a meaningful dialogue.

To which i replied:

I argue a lot. People know that. Or at least i *think* they do.

Recently, in a newgropup someone said to me:

You can redefine anything you want according to your personal definition, and be right. But don't expect such practices to help you have a meaningful dialogue.

To which i replied:

I don't want dialogue, that's boring. I want an argument. One person states what he feels, I state what I feel, and then we try to show why the other opinion is incorrect. In the end, much is learnt, and the brain is thoroughly excersized.

That says it. I've argued before with others, that the best way to come to a conclusion is to find two people who passionately believe in opposing conclusions, but who are rational and want to argue. With such passion behind the opposing viewpoints, the opinions will get attacked from all sides, and only the truth will survive. People disagree, saying that it should be a discussion and not an arguement. The Fs say this so there is harmony. To which i agree, but mention that they do not take it personally. They just argue until conclusion, but of course stay friends.

The Ps say this is bad, since it must be a "discussion". IIRC, Meyers pointed out that Ps would rather not make a judgement. They want to see the thing from all sides, with a belief that the truth will become clear on its own. And will all aspects being covered, that is an excellent form of truth! Js, however, want to argue. As each point comes up it is either true or untrue. If true, the argument is over, if untrue, another point is evaluated.

As a J, the latter method is more enjoyable. As an INTJ, i take it to the extereme. Unfortunately, most people won't play. It's my loss. Oh well.

I have floated an idea of having a website that records and facilitates arguements. Whether possible or not, it's a dream i cannot ignore.

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yes and no (1)

subgeek (263292) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336437)

i think i might have been the one who said those things.

if the dialogue includes listening and understanding, there doesn't need to be an argument to convey ideas. thinking exists outside of conflict. contrariwise, people can argue, but if they don't listen, neither participant is any wiser at the end. of course, these examples depend on whether they meet your definitions of dialogue and argument. to me a debate is not the same as an argument, and talking, discussion, and dialogue all have distinct meanings.

but i see your point. dialogue is not always boring. argument is not always edifying. someone could tell me about math or history and i could ask questions for clarification or new ideas, but we wouldn't have to argue in order to learn anything. some people like that kind of interaction, and some don't.

arguement is better than debate (2, Interesting)

intermodal (534361) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336601)

why?

because arguement starts with the important parts rather than trying to butter them up with the little parts first. You have to start with the meat of the subject, not the garnish.

Re:arguement is better than debate (1)

Chacham (981) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336836)

Small request. Please put all the words in the body, regardless of whether it is in the subject. When going back to the post, i sometimes forget to read the subject, and cannot figure out what's going on. :)

because arguement starts with the important parts rather than trying to butter them up with the little parts first. You have to start with the meat of the subject, not the garnish.

Interesting!

However, sometimes buttering up is required in order to get true appreciation.

For example. If someone were told, "actual truth is what is", it is doubtful that he will appreciate the statement. However, if they go through an entire discussion of actual truth versus believed truth, the statement means so much more. And here's the clincher. If he hears it first and does not appreciate it, it is unlikely that he will ever appreciate it to its fullest, since he already has a subconcious "this is stupid" idea about it.

In one book on ethical and related issues, the author mentioned that one should be careful to whom one tells wisdom. For if the listener does not appreciate the wisdom, it will mean less to the speaker as well. Fortunately, the opposite is very true as well.

In summary, i disagree, and say that in some cases, the "garnish" is absolutely prerequisite, in order that the "meat" should be properly appreciated.

Re:arguement is better than debate (1)

intermodal (534361) | more than 11 years ago | (#6337405)

please forgive my neglect, but i forgot to mention the plate. the garnish is the buttering up of a discussion, while the plate is the forming base for the meat. the garnish is usually simply the frills and extras you mention to get them on your side before even touching your issue including the plate or the meat. sorry for the confusion.

Re:arguement is better than debate (1)

MonTemplar (174120) | more than 11 years ago | (#6337723)

please forgive my neglect, but i forgot to mention the plate. the garnish is the buttering up of a discussion, while the plate is the forming base for the meat. the garnish is usually simply the frills and extras you mention to get them on your side before even touching your issue including the plate or the meat. sorry for the confusion.

For a moment there, I could have sworn I was reading a transcript's of one of Humphrey Lyttleton [bbc.co.uk] 's explanations of Pick Up Song [isihac.co.uk] , from the radio show `I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue` [isihac.co.uk] ...

Re:arguement is better than debate (1)

intermodal (534361) | more than 11 years ago | (#6340560)

it was intended to be something along the lines of what i think you're referring to (i haven't listened to it yet)...

Re:arguement is better than debate (1)

Chacham (981) | more than 11 years ago | (#6339185)

Of course, the plate *must* be warmed to the appropriate tempature.

Re:arguement is better than debate (1)

intermodal (534361) | more than 11 years ago | (#6340652)

of course. but that's a must.

All of which (0)

perfessor multigeek (592291) | more than 11 years ago | (#6339288)

is food for thought.

Does that make somebody who makes a concept appealing saucy?

Anyway, you guys better watch out or some vegan will show up and protest your use of politically incorrect metaphors.

Rustin

Re:All of which (1)

intermodal (534361) | more than 11 years ago | (#6340334)

thats when i shove the meat up the vegan's ass. gotta get their protein somehow, and if it's not gonna be eaten it may as well be a suppository.

Re:All of which (1)

Chacham (981) | more than 11 years ago | (#6340993)

That word is borderline. As a personal request, please do not use it unless making a quote from some archaic text that uses it.

Re:All of which (1)

intermodal (534361) | more than 11 years ago | (#6341864)

ok, i'll stop mentioning vegans

argument? (1)

heliocentric (74613) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336690)

Oh, I'm sorry, this is abuse, you want room 12A, just along the corridor.

Sorry, someone just needed to fill the void of Python quotes that this JE was asking for.

Re:argument? (1)

Chacham (981) | more than 11 years ago | (#6336788)

That much i don't understand.

Did you mean Monty Python? Never found them funny....

Re:argument? (1)

heliocentric (74613) | more than 11 years ago | (#6337265)

Did you mean Monty Python?

Yeah, Monty Python, guy goes into a place looking to pay for an argument (probably he's like you and enjoys a good one, and must go out and actually pay for a decent sparing partner) and mistakenly ends up in the room for abuse.

Never found them funny....

Don't worry, I'm sure we can find something low brow for you =^)

Re:argument? (1)

Chacham (981) | more than 11 years ago | (#6339203)

Yeah, Monty Python, guy goes into a place looking to pay for an argument (probably he's like you and enjoys a good one, and must go out and actually pay for a decent sparing partner) and mistakenly ends up in the room for abuse.

That actually is cute.

Worst part is, i'd probably actually would pay for a good sparring partner.

Re:argument? (1)

perfessor multigeek (592291) | more than 11 years ago | (#6339324)

Worst part is, i'd probably actually would pay for a good sparring partner.
I thought that you were here in NYC or nearby.
I'll oblige for the cost of dinner. But I'm warning you, I'm slower but *much* more relentless in person.

P.S. No kosher pizza; I have never recovered from the trauma of the eighties New York incarnations of same. That stuff *must* have been an offense against G-D somehow, it was certainly an offense against my stomach.

Rustin

Re:argument? (1)

Chacham (981) | more than 11 years ago | (#6339503)

Heh.

Nope, in Detroit. Though if I ever go to NYC again, maybe we can get in touch. :)

A quote (1)

Dannon (142147) | more than 11 years ago | (#6338037)

Reminds me of a quote I read recently:

Every man...should periodically be compelled to listen to opinions which are infuriating to him. To hear nothing but what is pleasing to one is to make a pillow of the mind.
-- St. John Ervine

Re:A quote (1)

Chacham (981) | more than 11 years ago | (#6339236)

Interesting

Although it does wonders for self-esteem. :)

I disagree! (1)

True Freak (57805) | more than 11 years ago | (#6338641)

I disagree! :)
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