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31 comments

weak (1)

Em Emalb (452530) | more than 9 years ago | (#9339101)

Sounds to me like they are doing their disciplining the wrong way.

But what do I know, I'm just a dumb childless dude.

Re:weak (2, Insightful)

metlin (258108) | more than 9 years ago | (#9339994)

Exactly.

They are disciplining him the wrong way, the way you train a dog or something.

Be a good kid, and you'll have this. Misbehave and I'll take it away.

Duh! Atleast from what I recall, my folks used to teach me what's right and what's wrong, and instilled a sense of moral values to hold on to. This is too stupid.

But in some sense, it serves the kid right, too :)

Re:weak (1)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 9 years ago | (#9340610)

Sounds like you are thinking correctly grasshopper. This kid wouldn't have pulled this shit if mommy and daddy had been doing their jobs all along.

Re:weak (1)

bethanie (675210) | more than 9 years ago | (#9341922)

I agree! First of all, it sounds like they're placing entirely too much emphasis on the monetary damages of his behavior. As if, if he had enough money, he could just pay for his bad behavior and be redeemed. Much more valuable than the bugle and the beer and the champagne is the broken trust (which I think was probably in disrepair before this incident ever occurred).

Second, does it sound like this kid needs more guidance? Getting dropped off at the skating rink (which isn't inherently negligent, if your kid can do that sort of thing unsupervised & not get into trouble, which this kid couldn't), and spending hours with friends in front of his Playstation? The dad gets home at ELEVEN THIRTY at night?! WTF?! No 13-year-old should be unsupervised that late at night, whether it's at the skating rink or at home -- I don't care what "all the parents" do.

Whatever. If this dad is pissed off enough at his son's behavior, maybe he'll take a long, hard look at the whole picture and consider what he might be doing to contribute to the problem. Somehow I doubt it, though.

....Bethanie....

Re:weak (1)

the_mad_poster (640772) | more than 9 years ago | (#9342393)

There was a generation once. It was labeled "the greatest generation" by a famous talking head. Although it is a gross oversimplification of the events that transpired, it could be said that this generation saved the world from one of the most evil forces to ever set foot on terran soil.

This generation suffered massive losses and hardships while making the sacrifice it needed to, insuring that freedom and, possibly, civlization could continue.

This generation eventually had children. Not wanting their offspring to suffer the way they had, they made a fatal mistake. They sheltered their children, protecting and insulating them from harm, pain, and, worst of all - responsibility.

This new generation grew up to be careless, reckless even. It was crass and uncouth, and it lacked a sense of direction and place. It, too, eventually produced offspring and that generation is now reproducing a new wave.

Now, there is a generation being raised by two generations of irresponsible boors, raised by a generation that knew the necessity of pain and responsibility to a greater purpose, but not how to pass that knowledge on. The last members of this group are dying, and few have passed on what they know. The waves of people that have come since then have not asked them to impart their wisdom - lacking a sense of social connection, and a lack of interest in their own history.

Now, we're here discussing this obviously skewed sequence of events in FortKnox's journal. Any questions?

Re:weak (1)

KshGoddess (454304) | more than 9 years ago | (#9342421)

First of all, it sounds like they're placing entirely too much emphasis on the monetary damages of his behavior.

Yep; the monetary damage is not the point of what this kid did. He drank, underage, without his parents' permission. That he drank their overpriced champagne isn't the point. The bugle destruction is kind of a shame, but if the kid had any sort of respect for his parents and his parents' posessions, this wouldn't have happened.

Second, does it sound like this kid needs more guidance?

Damn right. There's no way a 13-year-old kid should be as unsupervised as this. 13 is still a kid. Still young enough for a spanking, I don't care if he IS 6'3". Grounding, spanking, there are other forms of punishment.

Selling his PS2 probably won't be the 'lesson' the dad thought it would be, either. It still teaches the brat that material things are more valuable than correct behavior. Asshat. Someone needs to sell a book on ebay "Selling your kids' crap on ebay is not valid parenting".

Re:weak (1)

bethanie (675210) | more than 9 years ago | (#9342661)

Eh, I don't agree on the spanking front. Not that parents don't have the right to spank their kids until they're adults, but just that it's NOT effective.

I realized when I was about 10 years old that spankings never hurt very much -- I was upset by the disapproval they reflected. I could tolerate MUCH more pain than a spanking inflicted (even multiple swats with the belt from my dad) without crying. So after that, spankings just made me feel more resentful and fueled my [pre-]adolescent disgust for my parents.

Spanking, for the most part, just sends the wrong message to kids. Lots of times it sends the message that if you're angry enough, physical violence is acceptable. It says, if I'm stronger than you, I can make you do what I want. When used appropriately, it gets a kid's attention quickly and lets them know you mean business. Beyond that, you're pretty much just taking the easy way out.

Coming up with relevant methods of discipline (meaning not just punishment, but positive & negative reinforcement, as well!) is one of the greatest challenges of parenting. You've got to consider what exactly is wrong with what your child has done, and let the consequences convey that it's not acceptable and will not be tolerated. If possible, you simply let the child be affected by the natural consequences of his actions.

In this case, there was experimentation with alcohol and destruction of property. For the destruction of property, monetary recompense is pretty appropriate. But I wonder if maybe the kid shouldn't be required to actually *work* to earn the money to pay for the damage he's done. Take away the PS2 if you must, but if the kid is so freakin' busy earning the money to pay for the stuff he broke, it might be a more bittersweet punishment to leave it there, available, but not let him have *any* free time to play with it.

For the alcohol -- well, I think that rather than punishment, that deserves a long, sit-down discussion about experimentation and rebellion and peer pressure, among other things. Try to teach your son that a man is made stronger by his decisions to do the right thing, not what makes him look cool in the eyes of his friends. If he's curious about alcohol, let him have half a beer every once in a while in the safety of your own home -- don't make it so taboo that he feels like he's doing something really naughty when he goes out and gets wasted in high school. Acceptance and tolerance go a long way to defuse the ammunition of this kind of rebelliousness.

Overall, I think what this kid is needing most is some time and attention from his parents. This kind of acting out is a cry for attention. He's not getting the approval he seeks from his parents, so he gets it from his peers. It's an age-old story.

So yeah, punish the hell out of the kid. Be severe. Make it last so he won't forget.

But also think about what it is that he's needing that you might not be giving him. You don't have to share your shortcomings as such with the kid, but you can change your course and start spending more time with him. Rebuild the relationship, give him a chance to do the right thing, to please you & earn your acceptance -- that's really what most kids are yearning to do.

OK. Off the soapbox now. Not an attack on your comment, personally, Ksh love -- just an opportunity to exposite about my attitude towards parenting. I just hope I can practice what I preach! Lord knows I'm not perfect!!

....Bethanie....

Re:weak (1)

KshGoddess (454304) | more than 9 years ago | (#9342920)

yeah, yeah, you're anti-spanking.

I'm just pro-parenting. If people would be PARENTS to their kids and not just send them off/sit them in front of the television/game console/computer. Spanking does work for some kids. I needed, I think, a total of 3. My oldest brother got one. But my 2nd oldest brother needed more.

We need more parents like you, who actually give a crap about parenting.

Re:weak (1)

bethanie (675210) | more than 9 years ago | (#9344201)

No, we agree. I'm pro-parenting. And I'm NOT anti-spanking (and it's not fair for you to be so dismissive that way!!)! :-) I believe there is a time & a place for spanking, absolutely! But most of the time, with the appropriate level of thought and effort, it's not needed, nor is it the best method of discipline in the given situation.

"Pro-parenting" is an *excellent* term for it!! Nicely put! :-)

....Bethanie....

reminds me (1)

NeMon'ess (160583) | more than 9 years ago | (#9339143)

About that age my Dad either caught me riding my bicycle without a helmet or running a stop sign, can't remember which. That was the second time he'd caught me. Three months later when I was allowed to ride my bike again I'd learned my lesson.

Holy Crap (1)

robi2106 (464558) | more than 9 years ago | (#9339162)

That kid would loose more than the PS2 if it was me when I was 13. I would (justly) have a sore butt from a spanking, and those friends wouldn't be allowed over for a few weeks.

If I was the parent, I would call up the other kids parents (or visit them in person) and let them know what the kids did while I was out and why their kid is not allowed back in my house for X weeks. I would say that I don't care what they say, or whose kid is responsible. Even if my kid was the rotten brat, it would be better if the kids didn't hang out for a while.

Then I would try my best (God help me when it comes my turn to raise kids....) to let the kid know that I don't hate them, I do have a clue what it is like to be a kid, and I don't want to see them grow up to be an idiot.

I sure pray that God blesses me with good kids when I am a parent.....

jason

Re:Holy Crap (1)

Otter (3800) | more than 9 years ago | (#9339652)

Also, don't you get the impression that the parents seem strangely unconcerned about a 13 year old's drunkenness? It seems like they don't especially care about the drinking as long as he isn't drinking _their_ beer.

On the other hand, I bet the kids got more pleasure out of the champagne than the reneck parents would have. Anyway, Dom Perignon is way overpriced and overrated.

Re:Holy Crap (1)

robi2106 (464558) | more than 9 years ago | (#9340010)

I thought about the "parents not caring about the beer" angle but it looks like the do. They confronted the kids about it regardless. The point of the item description up was not to list the ways they went about the discipline issue, but the damages lost to justify the price for the PS2.

Regarding the DP, it is probably no better than most other champagnes. I mean serriously, champagne is practically sugared and carbonated water as it is... they can't do too much with it. I tend to view with a warry eye any "top of the heap" brand names any way. Especially if they come from France.

Frankly, I have had lots and lots of wines. Idaho, California, Oregon, Argentina, Spain, France. Nothing that France has produced has thrilled me, but some Spanish and Argentine wines have been amazing. Those were stand alone wines, where you have the wine itself as desert. Those wines aren't any good if you are eating a dinner because they are too strong. They spoil the dinner's taste. I like the subtle California, Oregon, and Idaho winse for eating with a dinner. They taste great, but don't take over your mouth when eating. That and they cost 1/3 the price (or less) for a decent table wine.

jason

Re:Holy Crap (1)

themusicgod1 (241799) | more than 9 years ago | (#9349956)

I think the best way to tell whether God will bless you with good kids when you are a parent, is to look at yourself, and your siblings, your significant other(when/if you have/get one) and their siblings.

If you were good, the odds are with you. That being said, of course, part of evolution and maturity is rebellion against your parents and the ways of old.

Re:Holy Crap (1)

robi2106 (464558) | more than 9 years ago | (#9357096)

That being said, of course, part of evolution and maturity is rebellion against your parents and the ways of old.

Don't I know it... I performed my stint as the prodigal son [biblegateway.com]

jason

Spank at 13? (1)

neverkevin (601884) | more than 9 years ago | (#9339509)

"(13 isn't too old to spank, IMHO)."

hehe at 13 I was about 1/2 foot taller then my mom and dad, if they tried to spank me it would have been a funny sight :)

Re:Spank at 13? (1)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 9 years ago | (#9339656)

Your dad didn't spank you hard enough when you were younger. My father still scared me when I was half a foot taller, outweighed him by 80 lbs, and had about 4 inches of reach on him.

Here-here. (1)

Abm0raz (668337) | more than 9 years ago | (#9339987)

My dad is 5'8", 230 pounds and 50 years old, blind in 1 eye and a professional accountant. I'm 6'4", 285 pounds and 28yrs old, a bouncer at a bar, play hockey, and a computer programmer. Even though I am a lot bigger than him, he could still kick my ass because he has before and I respect him for it.

There is something to say about beating respect into kids. Some just need it (I did). I'm glad he spanked me. When I was getting to 14, 15, 16yrs old and I tried to fight back, he'd wrestly my then gangly ass to the ground and fsck me up there and I'm glad for that to. I had my wild years where I pulled similar stuff to the kid in the Ebay article and if I hadn't had that "Fear-of-Dad" put into me, I'd prolly be in jail these days instead of a relatively upstanding citizen.

-Ab

Re:Here-here. (1)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 9 years ago | (#9340762)

My dad had two things in his favor. First, he had been more than willing to get into fights with bigger kids when he was growing up. He learned that the only way to fight is to fight 'dirty'. He views a fight (and war, for that matter) as something to be done as quickly and completely as possible. So the first target should be the family jewels.

Second, he wasn't afraid to use a weapon. Yardstick, flyswatter, large belt.

Remember 2001: it wasn't the big monkeys who one, it was the mean little fuckers who picked up sticks to beat on the big monkeys.

Re:Spank at 13? (1)

FortKnox (169099) | more than 9 years ago | (#9347376)

I'm STILL afraid of my dad. Its that 'fear of God' respect I hope to instill in Joey...

Re:Spank at 13? (1)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 9 years ago | (#9347453)

Yeah, Joseph had a 'fear of God', but since he thinks he is invincible, he plans on never meeting up with God.

What are you doing online at 8:30 on a Saturday? Thought you were usually doing family type stuff.

BTW, have you played the Thief III demo or picked up the game yet? I'm anxiously awaiting your report.

Re:Spank at 13? (1)

FortKnox (169099) | more than 9 years ago | (#9347484)

Joey's asleep and I've done enough damn yardwork to take a break on the computer.

Thief3, at least the game, will have to be a while. Don't have the $40 to drop on it (I just found a 21" Trinitron monitor in perfect condition at a yard sale for $40... I can wait on Thief3 for this monster) ;-)

I'll check out the demo tomorrow night or something.

Re:Spank at 13? (1)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 9 years ago | (#9347599)

I just found a 21" Trinitron monitor in perfect condition at a yard sale for $40.

You are teh SUXXOR! Look, I'll give you $45 for it.

Damn, all we get around here at yard sales are bulk purchases of used underwear:(

Demo was pretty fun. I enjoyed it a bit more than when I tried Thief II. Only problem is that I'd like a little interaction with people in the environment. Seemed like the only thing to do was avoid, stab, or pickpocket people:(

Ahh (1)

Safety Cap (253500) | more than 9 years ago | (#9341105)

Nothing like incompetent parents displaying their "issues" and inadequacy on a public forum.
I AM NOT GOING TO PUT UP WITH THAT KIND OF BEHAVIOR FROM A CHILD. EVEN A 6'3" 13 YEAR OR ANY ONE WHO DISRESPECTS ME & MY STUFF.

...And the cycle of a family with damaged boundaries continues: "You disrespect me and I'll show you! I'll disrespect you right back! Might makes right!"

Even money says the kid will go through two marriages (look at the role models!), slap his girlfriend and spend a few days in the clink, then knock her up and be stuck with 4 kids.

Re:Ahh (1)

the_mad_poster (640772) | more than 9 years ago | (#9342316)

I don't know. I got the impression that more than just damaged boundaries, they're afraid of the kid for some reason. This stinks of lashing out in a last ditch attempt to "get back" at the kid (You disrespect me and I'll show you! I'll disrespect you right back! Might makes right!) and "teach" him a lesson. Except, without the conviction to show where the error occurred, it will just be an empty punishment that helps lead to the societal problems you suggested in the last paragraph. I picture two fat yuppies and some gangly kid that's always been primped and preened his entire life, now he has no sense of responsibility for himself or respect for anyone else.

There's just something very unsettling about the whole listing... makes me want to backhand all three of the major players.

Re:Ahh (1)

Safety Cap (253500) | more than 9 years ago | (#9343592)

This stinks of lashing out in a last ditch attempt to "get back" at the kid ~.
Interesting; I didn't even think of that angle, but it makes sense. They neglect their kid (too much trouble...he's always asking questions or getting on my nerves!) or figure the TeeVee will raise him, then wonder why he acts out later.
There's just something very unsettling about the whole listing... makes me want to backhand all three of the major players.
Yeah. There are no winners here, and it isn't over by a long shot.

Re:Ahh (1)

Jhon (241832) | more than 9 years ago | (#9347575)

Nothing like incompetent parents displaying their "issues" and inadequacy on a public forum.
I agree that this 'ebay item' doesn't suggest good parenting skills. While I have no idea the complete back-story, what was presented doesn't put either parents OR child in any good light.

That said, I like the idea of publically SELLING a prized item as a form of punishment. Children tend not to make money and have no real sense of 'value' and as a result don't always respect property - particularly when it's not theirs. Something like this to replace a damaged lamp (from playing ball in the house, for example) wouldn't be too far in my book.

I'm not sure I would actually DO something like this to my kids, but I do find it an interesting form of punishment.

Hmmm (1)

M.C. Hampster (541262) | more than 9 years ago | (#9345599)


I'm thinking I might need to come up with some stupid story for everything I sell on eBay. Then it can make the rounds and shoot the price up to a gajillion dollars.

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