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Journal lukewarmfusion's Journal: Damn the Man 25

Journal by lukewarmfusion

I am involved in a bit of a battle with my employer. It's driving me nuts. See, I work for a small company that designs and builds web sites and applications for clients. We also do some other stuff, but the web stuff makes up the bulk of our revenue. I am our only programmer (that does anything other than HTML and Javascript stuff).

Almost two years ago, I had an idea to build a site. The nature of the site, while not crucial to the discussion, made it a potentially profitable business idea. From advertising, member subscriptions, etc. it would be possible to make it quite lucrative.

After already beginning work on the site, I approached my bosses with the idea. My plan was for our company, using company resources (read: financial backing, server space, design, development time), to achieve the vision that I had. Despite my bosses' interest and enthusiasm, they did very little in the way of helping me. I developed the entire site in my own time (from home, and outside of work hours). Other than a few meetings and the server space (at no additional cost to the company), there was no contribution to the project.

After a year of beta stage, I want to take it to the next stage. In order to clear up any confusion and hopefully prevent any problems down the road, I requested that they formally sign over all rights to the name, code, data, etc. associated with the site.

That's where the problems begin.

Now that I have shown so much interest in the project, they also begin to show more interest. There is no chance for us to dedicate company time to the project, they are not willing to spend money to make it happen, and because it is not a paying project at this point it will always be less of a priority than our paying clients.

I am not willing to work on it during my free time if there is no benefit to me. If I don't own it, then there's no guarantee that I will ever see a profit. I could quit or be fired and the site (including my hundreds or thousands of hours' work during my spare time) would be left with the company.

So here's my problem: Because the domain name is owned by me (in my personal account), I could simply take the site and the domain name to another server. They would have to sue me to get it back from me. Of course, I would be fired long before that ever happened. My other option, assuming that they refuse to sign it over, is to start from scratch and create a brand new site with a different name.

Since I'm the only one with the ability to work on the site, here's how it will play out:

1. The project doesn't get done.
2. The project gets done.
      a. They devote company time to it.
      b. They ask me to do it on my own time.
                  i. They compensate me for that time.
                  ii. They don't compensate me.

Since 2a won't happen because of our busy schedule, the only option that I would even consider acceptable is obviously 2bi. I think that's highly unlikely - so I'm left with either starting from scratch or convincing them to sign it over.

The worst thing is that my bosses are becoming more and more unreasonable with every week. And each week, I start to look harder and harder for a new job.

Does anyone have any ideas about this?

====
UPDATE (July 30, 2004) My request (and subsequent discussion) has resulted in an offer by my employer. They agreed to sign over any claims of ownership, including code, trademark, etc. completely free of charge. They won't host my site for free anymore, but I'm allowed to take it elsewhere. The only catch is that I have to sign a non-compete agreement. The terms of the agreement are a bit vague at this point, but I will be certain to have a lawyer examine it before I sign. They're afraid that I will be offered (and accept) projects outside of work. This concern has been there in the past, but with the publicity of this site I will exposed to a lot more potential clients. They're asking for a two-year agreement, but I won't sign anything that extends past my employment with them. Basically, if I quit (or they fire me) then I won't be prevented from working in this business for any period of time. While I'm generally against such agreements, this seems to be a way for everyone to get what they want. If I decided to quit and form my own company, which is a possibility in the future, I need to be free and clear of any obligations or limitations.

Thanks to everyone that offered their advice. It seems that my gamble will pay off; I can avoid any future legal or ethical issues, and they can rest assured that I'm not competing with them while on their payroll.

======

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Damn the Man More

Damn the Man

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  • Probably equals company property. If you want to keep it, consult a lawyer ASAP, not morons who preface everything with IANAL.

    Do you have a standing NDA or non-compete with the company?

    • Luckily, I have absolutely no agreement, signed or verbal, regarding NDA, non-compete, etc.

      Since they're such a small company, a lawsuit might be prohibitively expensive. Obviously I don't want it to come to that, but...
      • if you're really 'working' for these guys with no contract that covers 'outside-work' and the like, then you should be free and clear when you decide to take your pet project with you out the door. while IANAL, I imagine that it would be pretty tough for them to get a court to force you to surrender rights.
        If you are really willing to commit yourself to making this project happen, then you need to make some serious decisions about how you plan on financing the whole endeavor.
        1) find a corp. sugar-daddy who

  • woz up (Score:3, Informative)

    by spoonyfork ( 23307 ) <[moc.liamg] [ta] [krofynoops]> on Friday July 23, 2004 @03:46PM (#9782885) Journal
    I'm not sure I completely understand your delimma but here goes: Your employer doesn't want to work on non-paying projects because they are not paying and they are "not invented here". However your employer likes free work from employees so they aren't going to get in your way until there is an issue. Especially when it involves no risk on their part for something they own anyway. What? Own? Well, maybe. Check your contract or employement agreement with your company. Most companies totally pwn3d the things their employees invent. They get first right of refusal for ownership for things you design/development whatever while on company/time resources, etc. I am not a lawyer so take that with a grain of salt and like I said check your own fine print. This is real. It happens to people....

    ... like Steve Wozniak [woz.org] at HP [hp.com] back in the day with the first Apple [apple.com]. HP had the right to refuse ownership (they did, suckers) before Woz could take it out on his own (he did).

    I don't think I remotely answered your question but hopefully if didn't already know the woz/hp/apple story then it might help you out in your situation. Since you're already in the company's hardware, money, and time, I would try to stick it out through there. If you ever do something like this again, I would get approval and a project plan (including compensation) before starting. If they don't want it then do it on your own outside of the company.

  • "A lawyer's time and advice are his stock
    in trade." --Abraham Lincoln

    Get a lawyer.

    Also if your looking for honest advice I would give honest facts 100000 hours of work on your project would be 11.4 years or nonstop work.
    • Hundreds or thousands of hours! I'm trying to keep as honest as possible in order to get the best situation!
      • Hundreds, maybe. Thousands? Doubtful.

        There are only 2000 working hours in a year.

        If you really have put thousands of hours into this project in a year, it's hard to see how you could have done much of anything else for your employer.

        If I were your boss, I'd ask you to work on what you're paid to work for.
        • If I worked 4 hours a night, 5 nights a week, four weeks a year, for 12 months - that's 960 hours.

          There are many nights and weekends where I spent 6-12 hours working on it. None of my time was during the normal 8-5 work day (which often exceeds those limits).

          I estimate that I averaged 15 hours a week over the last 72 weeks - which would put me over a thousand hours.

          If you were my boss, you wouldn't need to ask me to "work on what I'm paid to work for..." The problem is that, while I get my actual work do
          • I suppose was quibbling with "thousands," which requires at least 2000 hours, which amounts to the equivalent of a full-time job. It seems unfortunate for you that your employer isn't recognizing the value of your after-hours project.

            Your employment contract will most likely spell out what you may legally "expect," but may not limit what your employer is willing to do if asked. Given that you say that you are getting your actual work done (to your employer's satisfaction or beyond), then you may be able to

  • OT: sig hint (Score:3, Informative)

    by RobertB-DC ( 622190 ) on Friday July 23, 2004 @06:26PM (#9784730) Homepage Journal
    Someone gave me this hint for fitting journal links in my Slashdot .sig. Since you're already on slashdot.org (or something.slashdot.org), you can use a relative link. All you have to do is this:
    a href=/~lukewarmfusion/journal/78141

    instead of this:
    a href=http://slashdot.org/~lukewarmfusion/journal/7 8141

    Don't forget to omit the quotes -- that's two more characters.

    As far as your work situation... all I can say is, good luck!
  • Have you read your employment contract? Did you keep records/notes on their involvement? How about e-mails with their reaction? What is their business model? Are they treating you like any other customer with an idea?

    If you really believe in the idea, then its time to either get away from this company and either take the IP with you and be ready for suit, or let it go and start again and call your previous work 'proof of concept.'

    But then again, everything is negotiable. Instead of approching it as a con
    • I didn't post a lot of details about my company, for obvious reasons, but we're a five person firm. Since my two bosses make up 40% of the company, and are the only owners, I can't go over their heads. :)

      If things don't work out with them, I will certainly be contacting a lawyer.

  • Stuff it with timebombs. (Score:3, Funny)

    by SharpFang ( 651121 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @02:38PM (#9804151) Homepage Journal
    The moment they fire you, the site stops working. Or starts working in such a way that they really QUICKLY employ you again!

  • So, best case scenario... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by phyruxus ( 72649 ) <{moc.oohay} {ta} {knildnapmuj}> on Monday July 26, 2004 @05:03PM (#9805745) Homepage Journal
    As long as you haven't let them see your idea, and haven't used their resources to develop the site, you can still work on it, maybe market it around yourself? You probably thought of that already. Another option (I have no idea what your site is but) you could shop the idea around to the Business departments of colleges. Get yerself a few grad students and maybe you don't need your bosses anymore?

    It's easier to pitch an idea to a business professor than you might think. Although they might have some weird preconceptions about your target market, or what you mean when you say things... maybe your alma mater could help you kick things off. I presented an idea to the Bus. Dpt at my old school once, and they seemed interested, even to the point of assigning some business students as a project. I remember though, that the prof asked me what kind of cars my target market was, and I said, well might as well start with rich people, so BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, etc. He thought I wanted to sell my idea to the companies... actually I wanted to sell direct to the car owner. We had a little laugh on that. Oh yeah, fwiw nothing happened (other parts of my life kinda uh... you know how it goes.)

    0-)

  • I'd say cut the company out of the equation and work on it without using their resources. Go the whole hog and document everything so when your project takes off they can't even begin to think they'd have a chance of cutting in on your action (as companies are wont to do). Then, if they did try, you could obliterate their case in the courtroom.
  • If you are a salaried employee, and you use any company resources then most states support the company's ownership of your work, even if you used 'personal time' to develop it - the fact is that as a salaried employee you don't have personal time - anything you do which is in the realm of your job assignment during your period of salaried employment is potentially claimable by them.

    I'd say cut your losses. If you start it back up again under another name now you are likely to lose out again because you'
  • I also work for a small company, and am considering putting myself in the same boat you are in with an Idea I've been developing in my spare time. I can't speak for your situation, but with me, I know my boss (president & ceo of said company) fairly well, and trust that he won't screw me over. I signed docs when I started that said whatever I touched with company resources and time belongs to the company, all else is mine. You may wish to make sure you haven't signed docs like that. Secondly, the re
  • Not a great place to be in, especially if you care about this project, which obviously you do.

    The time to figure it all out would have been at the beginning by saying "Are you going to support me or not? If not them I'm doing this on my own." That's it for the hindsight.

    The really, really irritating part about all this is that you have an employer who doesn't want to offer anything much in the way of resources yet it wants to profit from your labor. I got a little hot under the collar just reading it.

    W

  • The actual project/website/idea must:

    1) fit their idea of a their successful business model,

    2) they have to be absolutely convinced of risks/benefits/profit, and

    3) they have to be willing to risk the reputation of the business behind it, selling and servicing.

    If any of the above are not true, then they are not the right business to run it. You are barking up the wrong tree.

    But, just to be sure they fully understand their folly and your wisdom, here's a suggestion:

    Assemble a professional, detailed

  • Hello,

    Your points of Strength are that you are the ONLY high level coder
    at this place of business .

    You can cripple the code in a deceptive fashion .

    It will still compile, and show no errors, it just doesn't work right.

    Your points of Weakness, you made them think you were going to
    take something from them . Even though they profess no interest
    in it, they think it is theirs , and when a corporation thinks
    it is being robbed it will fight .

    To counter this I recommend acting like you no longer care about
    the
  • A two-year noncompete is way too long. It's reasonable for them to ask for a noncompete, but two years?

    There was a case about a year ago, i believe it was in cali, where the judge nullified a long noncompete in someones contract. basically, the guy said, hey, two years is like a hundred in internet years, and the judge agreed.

    see if you can get them down to six months. if you can cite the case, which a little googling should make very easy, that will help to sway them.

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