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Journal eugene ts wong's Journal: Last Day @ Church 25

Journal by eugene ts wong

Yesterday was my last day @ church.

I basically went because I wanted to say goodbye & to basically go as much as I could, even if it would only be once in a blue moon. Since I'm attending improv classes, which are Saturday & Sunday, starting this coming Saturday, I think that I won't be able to attend any morning services.

I deliberately took these classes, even though it conflicted with the morning services because I still feel like I need more information on things in general, & thought that they might be able to help me, & believe that the church hasn't been helping me progress as much as I could. I also did it to give myself a tiny excuse to not go. I suppose that I could just go to an evening service, but I'm not really interested in going any more.

Let me explain.

Yesterday was kind of weird for me. It was the 1st time back since I had my 1st migrane. I missed that 1st Sunday because I was tired & trying to recover. After 2 missed Sundays, I was pretty much good to go, but I still didn't want to, because I was still tired, & I really wasn't in the mood for it anymore. I honestly thought that the feelings would pass, & that it was important not to stress myself out.

Yesterday, I felt a bit of nausea @ the very thought of going to church. I felt guilty for not wanting to go, & decided to just suck it up & go.

When I got there, I was surprised to see a particular lady teaching the class. She's been divorced, just because of not getting along. She doesn't exactly appear to be the most perceptive person that I met. She always seems to state the unnecessary. I tried to ignore all of that. After a while that nausea came back.

I had to ask myself, "Honestly, why do I even want to listen to this lady speak about missionaries of the past? What does she know? She doesn't strike me as an expert.". The more that I thought about it, the more that I became offended.

Eventually, I just walked out. I honestly couldn't stomach this. This was yet another lesson that was as impractical as any other. It boiled my blood to think that we were wasting so much time learning about things that don't make a difference in life. I remember thinking similar things before: "Why don't we learn about city planning issues & how they affect the church?"; "Why don't we learn about law & how it affects the church?"; "Why don't we learn about economics & how it affects the church?"; etc. Obviously, I would want us to learn about how those concepts affect us personally as well as the church, but you probably know what I mean.

What made it worse is that I read "The Tipping Point" in the previous week, which is about how small changes create big changes. It's basically about social behaviour & how we distribute information as a society. This was yet another field of study that the church was ignoring.

They unintentionally added insult to injury: they never allowed me to teach! Yeah, I know. I'm not the greatest, but still! I have a Bible college degree, & here they were asking this woman who probably knew less than a parrot. Argh!!! To add even more insult to injury, they rejected me when I asked if I could teach; twice! Again, I know that there could be people better than me, but I can't stand how it's so hard for me to find a place in that church.

So, anyhow, I just left & went to the church library to read whatever I fancied. After that, I went back to the classroom to say my good-byes, but many were chatting away, so I just said it to 1 fellow I could talk to. I was a bit disappointed in the way that he turned to chat with someone while I was still speaking. Again, I tried to dismiss it because maybe the fellow needed to speak to someone about something important before that someone left.

*sigh*

So while I was stewing away in the service, I couldn't get over how annoyed I was. Everything was the same: more sermons about trivial details that didn't change lives; more of everything but the essentials.

I'm just so mad.

Compare that to the people that I have volunteered with. I got compliments. I was told that he wish he could pay me. The lady is friendly with me. The students appreciated my work.

Obviously none of these facts mean anything, but how can a group hope to improve things when they have poor quality responses?

  • "Well, you obviously perceive something wrong, but keep trying to be accepted, & maybe we will accept you 1 day."
  • "Well, nobody's perfect!"
  • "Hey, this is normal!"

Nobody said any of these things, but that's the impression that I get.

So, what does this mean for me & churches? Well, I think that I can't just excuse myself, & sit back while waiting for people to come to me & impress me. So, after improv classes, I'm going to bring out my sketch board & do some open air campaigning. When I was in college, 1 of the classes taught us how to use water colours to make low budget paintings that would grab the attention of pedestrians, while you preached an evangelistic sermon. That's right. Yours truly used to be 1 of those nutty guys on the streets, who would preach & hand out tracts. :^) I figure that I've grown a lot since then, & that I'm more focused on the types of issues that plague us.

Unfortunately, I honestly don't know what to say. Even if I knew what to say, I wouldn't know what to do with people if they showed an interest or converted. How does 1 go about leading a group of strangers in some new religious movement? I don't want to be a cult. I don't want to be part of Christianity. Talk about a rock & a hard place.

All I know is that praying & standing in the same place, will result in nothing. I'd rather try & fail, so that I can sleep @ night. No matter what, I refuse to give in to mediocrity.

I think that I have 3 things going for me, even 4 [wow, I always wanted to use that expression; more on that later]:

  • the willingness to draw boundaries even when I lose out financially or authoritatively
  • an understanding that there are more issues [ie: economics; justice; etc.] than prayer
  • the understanding that faith is evidence of things unseen, as opposed to the common belief that it is willingness to believe without evidence, or gullibility, etc.; in other words, I want a religion that requires intellect & is accessible to the common man
  • the willingness to part ways every time the congregation reaches 150 in membership

The last item is fundemental, because it protects the members from bad leadership getting too much power, & allows us to maintain a tight knit group. I leant that from "The Tipping Point". The idea is that we don't have the physical capacity to personally know more than 150 people. The Amish spilt up @ 150. The makers of Gortex do it too. No building contains more than 150 workers. Both groups discovered this on their own. Roman centurians lead 100 people. This seems subjective but undisputable.

150 is something that I pondered during the Sunday service. I couldn't get over many people we seemed to have only during 1 service: 400. No wonder there is no tight knit group!

I could be wrong, but even the cults split @ 150 as well.

I guess that's it. Questions? Comments?

Note: that phrase, "even 4" is in the Bible; it would often mention "...3 blah blah, even 4..."; there is nothing spiritually or intellectually significant as far as I can tell; I just happen to love the way that it rolls off the tongue.

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Last Day @ Church More

Last Day @ Church

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  • This needs a longer response than I'm prepared to give right now, as it's my bedtime... ... but I'll try to remember.
  • Unfortunately, I honestly don't know what to say. Even if I knew what to say, I wouldn't know what to do with people if they showed an interest or converted. How does 1 go about leading a group of strangers in some new religious movement? I don't want to be a cult. I don't want to be part of Christianity. Talk about a rock & a hard place.

    First, I think you need to find another church, not stop going to church. The Bible clearly commands Christians to be a part of a local assembly. There are a lot o
    • I agree... Eugene, what you describe about the close knit groups is what my church does. Even though the churches don't "split" at 150, they do encourage members to join a "small group" so you get the benefits of a large church, and the closeness of a tight nit group. My church is a "Purpose Driven Church". You can read more about it and decide if it's for you at http://www.purposedriven.com/ [purposedriven.com].

      that requires intellect & is accessible to the common man
      Aren't these mutually exclusive? :-)

      • I wanted to voice my agreement with glh and TL. I'm not really up on the "Purpose Driven Church", but I go to a church with a congregation of about 350-400, and have great fellowship in small groups during the week. Not that 150 isn't a nice rule of thumb, but it shouldn't be hard and fast.

        When you look for a place, look for a church that constantly reads the scripture. You'll still have to watch out for left-field heresies, but a church that examines everything in the light of scripture will be much more
        • When you look for a place, look for a church that constantly reads the scripture. You'll still have to watch out for left-field heresies, but a church that examines everything in the light of scripture will be much more of a God centered environment than a people centered environment. I'll be praying that you can find something soon.

          I would add to that a structured reading of scripture is important. For instance, in any given Lutheran, Anglican, or Roman Catholic Church, the Post-Vatican II Missal has a
          • I asked you about heresy & divorce in another post. I didn't read this before posting. Now I understand.

            Thanks!
            • I hope my response to the other post was a bit more clarified as well- divorce is a complex issue. But favorite sins is definately a problem for any preacher. I've got a member of Courage who is a part time pastor at my parish (he fills in when the regular pastor is gone). If you're not familiar with Courage- it's a Catholic Lay and Holy Orders association for non-practicing homosexuals (those that have responded to the Church's call to celebacy for homosexuals). Many are priests. I've NEVER heard Fath
        • Hi insane.

          Thanks for your thoughts.

          I guess one other reason for my support of the 150 idea is that people become more productive & interactive when they are smaller than 150. At least, that's the way that I understand it. As it is right now, churches seem to have these official church plants and official ministries. This all seems very unnatural. A more natural approach would be to split when we get too big.

          I can't understand why we seem reluctant to split at 150. Is it because of funds? If so, then

      • Even though the churches don't "split" at 150, they do encourage members to join a "small group" so you get the benefits of a large church, and the closeness of a tight nit group.

        It's not the same. The person sitting next to you in your small group isn't the treasurer of your church. You only have 1 treasurer [unless your church is different than I understand it]. He might be the treasurer of your small group, but not the church. There is accountability of the church that isn't there. When I say "split", I

    • I'm chiming in - I agree with glh. In fact, you may want to go to your pastor, and ask him to recommend a new church for you.

      You get to explain that you want to contribute more, and at this church, your contributions are not so welcome, so .... (It will be important to make this not sound like spite. Really, you are in search of place which has the best fit. There is a reason there are so many different churches.)

      The other thing is that the pastor should know you well enough to give good advice. He will

      • Maybe I'll phone him instead of seeing him in person? I'm not sure that he'll know me. He might recognize me, but I'm pretty certain that he doesn't know me very well. On the other hand, maybe he'll be able to understand me better in person, because he'll see my body language.
        How about I pray for guidance for you, if you promise to do the same for me? :-)
        Sure. :^) Are you going through the same things & hunting for a church right now?
        • Not hunting for a church, hunting for a home, and adjusting to (not) changing work. It's a long story, perhaps just mid-life crisis ('nuff said).

          But guidance from above is always a good thing. :-)

    • i wanted to add my agreement here. it sounds like the church you were attending doesn't meet your needs. please don't take that to mean all churches are as inadequate for you as that one.

      as for wanting nothing to do with christianity: is it the teachings of christ that you disagree with, or the way they are taught at that church? christianity is very broad and encompasses many different things. it is taught many ways. don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. unless you're doing it on purpose.

      al

      • is it the teachings of christ that you disagree with, or the way they are taught at that church?

        I'm not too sure that I understand you here. I agree with the teachings of Christ, but I don't feel that they are being taught there. Also, my main complaint as of today is about the organizational structure. If somebody wants to do something in the church, then it is hard to do it, because he doesn't know where to go. It's just the way that it is. Members don't have good access to other members.

        Thanks for your

        • I'm not too sure that I understand you here. I agree with the teachings of Christ, but I don't feel that they are being taught there.

          well, i'm basing that on when you said:

          I don't want to be part of Christianity.

          it sounded like you were not interested in having anything to do with christianity, so i asked the question to help you find out whether it was your specific church that you were annoyed by or if it was the entirety of all churches that seek to learn from what christ taught.

          either way, it's o
          • Oh, okay. I guess that I should have been more careful in the way that I used that terminology. I get so tired of people using it to represent their beliefs when I don't think that they should be able to use it. So, I was going in the opposite direction by saying, "If you insist on using that, then I'll use something else.". That may not have been such a wise decision.
    • Wow. It's been quite a few days since I started this discussion. I meant to reply right away, but things just started happening.

      First, I think you need to find another church, not stop going to church. The Bible clearly commands Christians to be a part of a local assembly.

      I agree with what you say here. However, for the sake of discussion, what you do if you looked in several different churches and couldn't find one? I suppose that it would be a good time to reevaluate our standards, but still. I honestly t

  • as I have a tendency to be rather bigoted where this sort of thing is concerned, but:

    1. You will never be able to grow in a church where the pastor and school teachers are allowed to avoid discussing their favorite sins.

    2. You will never be able to grow in a church where the pastor and school teachers repeat their favorite Bible verses and never tackle the hard issues.

    3. There's only a handfull of denominations that trace their teaching tradition back to the Apostles- and that teaching tradition (call
    • Thanks. I totally agree with what you say, with or without the grain of salt. :^)

      1. You will never be able to grow in a church where the pastor and school teachers are allowed to avoid discussing their favorite sins.

      2. You will never be able to grow in a church where the pastor and school teachers repeat their favorite Bible verses and never tackle the hard issues.

      These issues were touched on in my Bible college. These ideas were often mentioned informally in various classes. I totally agree.

      • I'm glad to hear it- the Health & Wealth gospel preachers have so much control over our society that it often seems, from a Catholic perspective, that the fifth generation of Protestantism has gone to the con artists, and that those who hold to Scripture Alone often fall into the error of "My Scripture Alone, if I don't read it it doesn't exist".
  • The problem I see with small, close knit church communities is the potential for drift into heresy. Of course, being Catholic, I'm not a big believer in Sola Scriptura to begin with- I think that Scripture, like the Constitution, needs authoritative interpretation, and you can't get that from the word alone.

    Having said that, how older denominations work within that boundary is with small group faith sharing- lay organizations like Knights of Columbus, Daughters of Mary, etc that give you a group you can j

    • But like I said before- take what I have to say with a largish grain of salt- I'm a bit bigoted against Protestantism in general (though, except for the outright heresies such as divorce and Jehovah's Witnesses, no one denomination in particular stands out).

      Wow. I'm so glad that I put you on my friends list. The 1 thing that you never seem to do is stop coming up with fresh ideas; that is, fresh with respect to where I'm standing.

      That being said, what do you mean about heresies & divorce? It is a heres

      • That being said, what do you mean about heresies & divorce? It is a heresy to believe that divorce is okay?

        From a Catholic perspective, YES. What God has Joined, let no man put assunder. That's qualified of course (as all Catholic teachings seem to be)- Marriage is a sacrament, and thus must have proper form and intent to really be marriage. Thus the Catholic annulment process in cases of divorce- to see if the marriage ever really existed in the first place, and thus to see if a sin was commited w
        • Interesting. I would have never used the word, "heresy", to describe those divorce beliefs. I agree, though. The Bible has a very strict view of marriage & such things. It's interesting that they use "sacrament". I would have used "institution" to describe a physical group that is meant to be established in each instance.

          Interesting. It is yet another topic that warrants more study.
          • At times I use words that have specific-to-Catholic meaning. So here's the definition of a Sacrament- straight from the old Baltimore Catechism that my father used growing up: A Sacrament is an outward sign of inward grace, instituted by Christ. So certainly, there is a bit of the instituion in the definition- but there is also so much more.

            The Seven acraments of the Catholic Church are divided into the Initiation and Adult Sacraments. Initiation sacraments are: Baptism, Eucharist, Reconciliation, an

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