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Well, I think there is a resolution

Liora (565268) writes | more than 9 years ago

User Journal 15

The couple I have been fretting over has reached a resolution that I think will work out. If it happens again, even one more time, he's going to leave for a while, and there are witnesses to back that up and make sure that it really happens. In the meantime, he's going to get some help. Reading your responses helped my friend know that she could take a stand and require that he get help as well as blow the air of secrecy surrounding the whole thing without feeling like she's being overbe

The couple I have been fretting over has reached a resolution that I think will work out. If it happens again, even one more time, he's going to leave for a while, and there are witnesses to back that up and make sure that it really happens. In the meantime, he's going to get some help. Reading your responses helped my friend know that she could take a stand and require that he get help as well as blow the air of secrecy surrounding the whole thing without feeling like she's being overbearing or demanding, which is what I hoped it would do for her. You guys are awesome. (And thank goodness you are predictably awesome with good answers and statements to sufficiently empower a pretty distraught wife.)

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Almost posted.... (1)

FroMan (111520) | more than 9 years ago | (#10973966)

I almost got this posted at the other one before it was deleted. I hope things do work out as you have written above.

Rather than let this finger wiggling go to waste, here it is in your journal for posterity (my own form of pride).

Rather than knee-jerk to the immediate, "she should leave," response as most here have, I'll give you a different perspective.

First, on divorce. Entering into marriage, God is binding a couple together. Christ tells us that is the case as, "What God has joined, let no man put asunder." Christ, and as an extension, God, sees marriage as binding and final. Christ also hedges this with in the instance of infidelity divorce be permitted.

In Hosea we find the example of God and his unfaithful people, Israel. Hosea is told to go out and find a harlot to be his wife, and predictabley she is unfaithful to Hosea. God commands Hosea to draw his wife back to himself, just as the picture of God seeking to woo Israel back to faithfulness.

God, to affect the salvation of His people sent Christ. In his perfect faithfulness to God's will laid down His life. He bore the wrath of God to that many might be saved. Now, Christ said that those who wish to live must hate their life, not necessarily in the fashion of despising life and wishing God would permit death (as in the case of Job), but as that their love for God must cause them to seek Him first above all and faithfulness to Him.

On reputation, know that God hates the lofty and proud and brings about their downfall. Look at Proverbs for any doubt to this, as it is full of wisdom on the topic of the proud. Do not let reputation become your god, as it can only lead you astray. Even within the church, do not become proud of your standing, be content that God has chosen wisely for the position you are in for the time.

Pride I would say is the root of more evil than any other fashion of sin and causes the greatest sorrow. For even the sin of Adam was pride, as he sought to elevate himself to God's level as the serpent said he would know good from evil just as God knows. Even Satan's rebellion is forged in pride, seeking the seat of God.

See the last two chapters of Job where God is chastising Job for his pride. God writes it out before him why he is God, how man's understanding is limited, how God is omnipotent and omnicient. Your status, within the church or without, is all from God. His plan for your life will mold you and make you into the image that God pleases.

I am not going to go into the details of whether women should be leaders within the church, as I think this is a separate issue.

On leadership within the church, we need to go to 1 Timothy 3:1-7. Review the qualifications for church leaders here (which I think should be for anyone who would consider themselves a leader in any area). These qualifications are a must for leaders within the church who wish to teach, yet how can one teach without knowledge, understanding, and the fruit of a Christian life? Immediately I see a number of issues with this fellow being a leader in the church.

While it is good to desire to serve, Paul states as much in a number of other places and I am sure that is what tugged at this fellow's heart to draw him into the desire to serve. I would guess that this fellow needs to apply verse six to his heart as much as three.

There is a fellow I know who when he was in his teens he got a young woman pregnant, he then turned around and married her. This man is now an elder within his church. From that one would think that he does not warrent such responsibility, until you know that he is also now in his sixties. He had many years between his youth, he learning the word, applying it to his life, serving others, and showing fruit.

As I now see that the JE has been deleted, I'll try to wrap this up and post it somewhere... That is concerning.

I would recommend some counseling with your pastor. Especially as he should know you better than most of us on \. and probably is able to help the situation.

While the husband should be the head of the family, he should give leadership, comfort, and love to his wife and children. By doing violence in the home he is not handling his responsibility. There is no obvious solution to the situation, as domestic issues rarely have.

As a thought, while it might help, look up Wendy McElroy She write columns also for on tuesdays (or wednesdays). From what I have gathered from reading many of her articles she had an abusive husband, so her perspective is from an insider. However, do not let the feminist in the url scare you off, as she actually tends more libertarian and personal responsibility oriented. This summer there was a particularly good article about why a woman might stay or leave a relationship.

Re:Almost posted.... (2, Insightful)

dead sun (104217) | more than 9 years ago | (#10975134)

There's a lot here that I want to touch, but I'm just not going to do it.

Instead, I'll simply respond to the one thing that irks me the most. I'll state my reaction was not in any way knee jerk. I am of the solid opinion that an abusive home is not a healthy home, and there are options available to people who are the subject of violence, one of which is leaving. There is no need for anybody to tolerate violence.

Re:Almost posted.... (1)

elmegil (12001) | more than 9 years ago | (#10975659)

I've been trying to figure a way to say this for nearly 24 hours now. I keep writing some variation or other and then deleting it before I post. I think this time will actually make it, we'll see.

I agree that violence is not excusable. I don't share FroMan's God Centered point of view, so you can't claim I'm using that as a prop to justify the unjustifiable (which, BTW I don't mean to project onto FroMan either, but I get that sense from your response). I do think that there is some middle ground, and I think that's what FroMan is getting at.

My wife and I have hit each other in the past. We have screamed, yelled, gotten in each others faces, etc.

While this is not excusable in the general sense, the fact is, it was not (for us) a chronic problem, and it is something we have learned to defuse much more effectively. It has not happened in a very long time now (well, yelling still goes on from time to time, but my point is the aspects that are abusive have not occurred).

It would NOT have been best for us to simply break up even when this was a more regular occurrence. We both recognized it for the aberration that it was in our relationship, recognized its common cause in both our family histories, recognized that we really loved each other and were truly sorry once we had calmed down. What we didn't do was sit back and do nothing. We worked at it. We talked rationally about what and why and how when we weren't in the heat of it. And we made progress. As long as all those things are really happening (yes, it's hard for a victim who wants them to be happening to be sure, but that's why you get some outside validation if things really do seem chronic), it CAN BE reasonable to stay together IF YOU WANT TO and if you think it's the right thing.

That's not the same thing as saying someone "needs to tolerate violence". And you need to keep that distinction clear.

I think it sounds like this couple, at least on the surface, is making the right moves. I think the wife should think very hard, however, about what criteria she expects to judge forward progress on. She needs to realize that it is easy to project wishful thinking onto these situations, and make sure that her criteria are objective and verifiable, not just in her head. Because if the husband is not putting his whole heart into finding better ways to address the situation and his behavior, nothing the wife can do will make it improve, and then we all agree that she should not put up with it.

Re:Almost posted.... (1)

dead sun (104217) | more than 9 years ago | (#10975926)

I don't think that I made my statements out as anything but if it's bad enough she should leave. I say I don't think because the posts are gone, and I can't really look back to see if that's the case. However, that is what my intent had been. At some point losses must be cut and there isn't hope to work things out.

What I posted here should be clear and concise, and has nothing to do any God centric view. While I despise any outlook like God has it in for you, so even leaving will only get you beaten in the future or sent to hell, I'm not going to touch the previous statements. I'm not even sure that's what was meant, and while I took issue with some things that were said, I'm not going to touch them. Rather I state that violent homes are not healthy homes and violence should not be tolerated. One option is leaving. There are others, and I'm glad to hear that you've worked out a viable solution that didn't involve leaving. However, leaving is an option. I know I gave examples in previous posts about when might be time to, specifically, if she'd threatened to leave prior upon some condition and that condition arose. To not follow through with your own threats only shows you have no teeth. If you can't follow a threat through, don't make it.

I meant exactly what I wrote, and tried to take the time to type that strictly. Violence should not be tolerated. That may mean laying down the law, setting ultimatums, seeking counciling, or some combination of those and other ideas. You're right when you say working things out isn't tolerating it. But that's something that needs to be forced, it doesn't just work itself out. Waiting for it to would be tolerating it.

I did suggest seeking out a doctor to discuss things with. Apart from confidentiality agreements, they should have the knowledge and contacts to make things move in the right direction. I also suggested that leaving was an option. I certainly wasn't knee jerk about it, which is why I was irked. I doubt many of the responders were knee jerk posting either.

Re:Almost posted.... (1)

FroMan (111520) | more than 9 years ago | (#10977164)

No, I don't think you were projecting (or atleast inaccurately). Your comment in many ways was the sentiment I was looking for, or atleast that there are often more complex solutions to what appears initially to be a simple problem.

Re:Almost posted.... (1)

FroMan (111520) | more than 9 years ago | (#10977104)

When StB says, "I was pretty shocked to see that many people had the same thoughts as I did," and buttress that with the "get the hell out of Dodge" comments, I would say that is pretty knee-jerk. Certainly there was some thought that went through folk's minds, but most comments came down to that sentiment.

While violence is not good, infact I do give scripture reference to back that up, is plainly there. However, the issue is not as simple as "it hurts, don't do it." It is part of the fallen world we live in that mankind is violent, and has a number of other clinging vices, one of which is not looking at all the details and making a rush to judgement.

Elmegil, whose post below yours, compliments mine quite well. I did take a Christian centered perspective (which I do not think many others had), but I also looked at a number of other issues a Christian might look at to help decide how to react to the problem. I did not deny that leaving was a solution, infact, I did not give any advice other than toseek counseling for possible help, and moreso, I also mention that the problem has no obvious solution...You have read into the comment at the beginning a little more than absolutely necessary, and then in your followup comments you seem to stand by your mantra of violence == bad, but sometimes violence is a bit more complex than that. For one, we do not even know why this fellow has been violent, perhaps the immediate solution is the remove yourself from the situation, perhaps it is to grin and bear it and fix the root cause while salvaging the person's soul instead of abandoning them. But that requires getting past violence == bad.

Re:Almost posted.... (1)

dead sun (104217) | more than 9 years ago | (#10977603)

My response to Elmegil's mentioned response stands. I think most responses to the original question were in kind, that if the situation was as bad as it was coming across, leaving was an option, and as an objective third party with nothing invested, that's what they would do. I feel there's a point where losses just have to be cut. Only the people in question can decide that point, assuming authorities don't step in first. But it's often the case that a victim will play it off as far better than it is. We've all heard the stories of women in over their heads that can't bring themselves to do it when nothing else will work, despite constant abuse. You know, the abnormally clumsy ones that keep falling down the stairs.

It'd be nice to think that the situation can be salvaged, which is why I recommended seeking a doctor to help first. A trusted, professional third party which probably isn't too close to any involved party which can offer an objective stance as well as connections to whatever help may be appropriate.

I did read way to far into your comment, which is one of the primary reasons I didn't respond to those parts. Petty bickering isn't going to help anybody, and I think I've made my points without doing so. Violence is bad. If a person can be reformed and the violence banished that is great. There's no reason to tolerate violence, and grinning and bearing it is tolerance. If it takes being cast out to wake a good person up that they can't go on hurting people, I have no problem recommending it. A "One more time and I'm gone" ultimatum is more reasonable than smiling through yet another beating in my book.

Re:Almost posted.... (1)

andr0meda (167375) | more than 8 years ago | (#11114563)

Talking about knee-jerking. Just understand that you don't need any of these bibles, christian faith or religion to understand that violence in a household has no place. I'll explain.

A domestic household is an evolutionary process, during which all parties can come to agree or disagree with what is happening. If at one point you don't agree with the evolution, there are only 2 options: a) resolve it or b) leave. Both options will cost you energy, and both will hurt on both sides, but resolving is always easier (or should be). Society has made it difficult to leave, and christianity and/or profanity often makes it even worse. My idea is simply that I would not want my life be ruined by some asshole/bitch in the name of god. Still. You should put some effort and time in resolving if that label does not apply, and if you think that external factors can be removed to make things better, if there is still hope. If you have really tried your best at resolving (by talking to the other party directly or, indirectly, or by re-trying with expensive oaths and then re-trying) and if nothing works and you still get hurt, then leaving the equation (even if only temporarily) is the valid option.

If you're that far that you're considering, you should probably try it.

I also understand that for some people the faith in a better hereafter is their guide in perseverance. If it works for you that way, fine with me. But those who don't believe can also take 'right' decisions. Reading your post it sounds a bit like everything should be absoluted with the words of your God.

Re:Almost posted.... (1)

FroMan (111520) | more than 8 years ago | (#11114634)

Well, that's rather snippy, huh?

Anyways, one thing to consider is that this is (was) a case where the couple is not only Christian and involved with the church (per description of two previous entries which have since been deleted). I wrote from a Christian perspective, for that reason, and that I also believe in what I wrote.

Anyways, as the situation seems to be rather resolved (as this JE is several weeks old now) and Liora has not brought up further discussion of it, I'm going to let this rest instead of making a large issue of your reply.

Re:Almost posted.... (1)

andr0meda (167375) | more than 8 years ago | (#11115633)

Okay, agreed, I dropped in a little late in this so it's probably better to let it rest. I also didn't want to offend anyone who is religious, I have a lot of sympathy and respect for that. But my senses jump to red alert when common day problems are approached from a religious angle rather than with common sense.

People can hold on to it religion, when they have nothing or nobody else to hold on to. That's good. That's valuable. That's progress. But if my post sounds a bit snippy it's because in my regard religion has never ever actually solved one single problem. My personal opinion of course, and you don't need to defend yours if you have a different view. I accept it and respect it fully, I just may not agree, which is ok, isn't it.


I was pretty shocked to see (1)

SamTheButcher (574069) | more than 9 years ago | (#10974041)

that many people had the same thoughts as I did. I didn't read any other replies before I wrote mine. Probably the collective chorus said it strongly enough.

Re:I was pretty shocked to see (1)

TechnoLust (528463) | more than 9 years ago | (#10974829)

You didn't think any of us were as wise as you, oh Genius? ;-)

Re:I was pretty shocked to see (1)

SamTheButcher (574069) | more than 9 years ago | (#10975163)

Um, no. I was surprised that pretty much everyone had the same thoughts as I did, expressed almost the same way. I think that's what I said.

responsibility (2, Interesting)

blinder (153117) | more than 9 years ago | (#10974170)

i just hope through this resolution, doesn't mean she is absolved of her responsibility to make sure she isn't keeping herself in a dangerous environment. What I mean is... you said the agreement means he has to leave. Well, that assumes when he blows his top (and it will happen) that this means she is going to trust *him* to honor this.

I would hope that part of this agreement, there is a clause that says something like, if he does freak out, and doesn't leave, she will and do so post haste.

its about establishing boundaries... and she needs to do that... and stick to them... so when the shit hits the fan... she knows exactly what to do. Get outta Dodge.

I hope he is serious about getting help, and actually works on it. if so... then he can start rebuilding the trust that he's destroyed.

Hope for the best (1)

dead sun (104217) | more than 9 years ago | (#10974967)

I'm happy to have helped out in any little way and hope for their best in the future. Make sure she knows it's her life to live, and she gets to make the decisions regarding it, even if they're tough ones.
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