MathML 2.0 Becomes W3C Proposed Recommendation 80
Nearly three years after the officialization of MathML's first generation, MSjogren writes: "W3C has announced the advancement of MathML 2.0 to Proposed Recommendation. Check out the W3C Math home page.
Now I just wish I could get it to work decently in Mozilla too :(" Part of the proposed recommendation is this explanation of some of the difficulties and aims of mathematical expression, especially when it comes to transmitting over the Web, which emphasizes the importance of a format which can be written to by various tools as appropriate, for reading by anyone.
Wonderful! (Score:2)
Re:TeX (Score:1)
I suppose that we could just have a tag that allows TeX formatted stuff to be used, but I think its best that web pages use something that is consistent with HTML's idioms.
"Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto"
(I am a man: nothing human is alien to me)
Re:Does this still require a plug-in? (Score:2)
It supports only the "presentational" markup, not the "semantic" form, so unless you are amazingly patient you probably need a tool to generate it (there is a TeX to MathML converter available already) and you have to use XHTML in your web pages because XML-in-HTML is not supported by Mozilla. It also isn't included in all builds, and Netscape didn't choose to build it in NS6.
All that said, it works! I can view MathML pages today in my usual browser
Stuart.
Re:And this applies to me how? (Score:2)
I'm only a little out of school, and I remember how math was one of the bottlenecks in my studies. For most of high-school, a good calculator, $50 - $100, was all I needed to breeze through Algebra. The simple interface and display was enough to do most problems, except for geometry. Computer tools really did help me understand concepts and check my work.
Calculus changed that. You feel like you need a quill pen just for the notation, and it feels like you are hacking your own tools to do simple problems. It doesn't get better as you go on, with more complex subjects adding more notation. And I thought only classical students needed to learn Greek.
I'm not saying this will change the way we teach the natural sciences and engineering, but it will facilitate a new generation of computer-based tools, the same way a graphing calculator was a leap over the basic scientific calculator.
Now we are closer to an age where the textbook, the notebook, the scratch paper, the homework assignment, the completed homework, the exam, and the calculator all have the same interface, and the student doesn't have to constantly translate between the media.
Comment removed (Score:3)
Bitmaps for equations -- what a disaster! (Score:2)
The other problem with doing equations as bitmaps is that it breaks the functionality of the web. Visually impaired people can make the font bigger, but the equations will stay small. You can't search through it. You can't do text-to-speech. You can't change your stylesheet and have all the equations change style as well.
As far as LaTeX,
The Assayer [theassayer.org] - free-information book reviews
Re:TeX (Score:2)
...because of the many legacy documents in TeX, and because of the large authoring community versed in TeX, a priority in the design of MathML was the ability to convert TEX mathematics input into MathML format.
--
Re:TeX (Score:1)
HTH
Brett
Re:TeX (Score:1)
<TEX>
insert raw tex input here
</TEX>
with standard wrapping/alignment/etc instructions in the opening tag. but adding more stuff is kind of silly if there is already a well documented way of doing the same thing.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
Re:Bloatware and older browsers (Score:1)
But anyway, Mozilla hasn't yet hit optimizing stages yet, so it won't become fast for another few months. So be patience, and the browser you want will arrive. ^_^
Finally, hyperlinked class notes (Score:1)
Of course, even when MathML allows good TeX to HTML conversion, I'm still going to have a good time trying to get the converters to work with all the AMS-Latex extension macros (ever try to use HyperLaTeX and AMSLaTeX at the same time? Ugh!). It's going to be plain LaTeX for a long time, folks.
Re:Ummm...Does this concern 99% of us in any way? (Score:1)
Every rule has an exception, and this is the only rule with no exceptions! Huh? -- Spatch
Re:Does this still require a plug-in? (Score:1)
Re:How long... (Score:1)
Vunerabilities such as specifing to do nasty things with pi, and e, and the number 1. Think of the chaos! ...<mo><mo><mo>... Buffer overflow problems are probably going to be the first things to break. ^_^
Re:Bitmaps for equations -- what a disaster! (Score:2)
You give me the giggles. :-)
Seriously, you sound very confused to me. Your hand-baked approach to putting physics on the web didn't work so well, because, as you point out, there was no way to separate form from content that way. But then you slam on TeX for, well, trying to enforce that useful separation.
The second objection is (I think) to the way that TeX actually dares to compile your document, report errors, and work essentially in batch mode. Yes, that can be infuriating at times, but the advantage is that, at the end of the day, your work really could be device independent. Giving up that is giving up the farm, in my opinion.
The first objection is the one that I found most amusing, though. Like, so what if only one person in ten thousand ever learns to use LaTeX? Many fewer people than that ever create anything that needs it. Heck, only a few people in a hundred ever create anything much at all, and it's a given that fewer people know how to use tools than know how to appreciate the results of tool use.
We are the geeks; the people who use tools.
The people who use tools to make tools.
The people who use tools to design tools to make tools. We are the lords of the Shell, the emperors of Perl, we dominate the DOM.
You're totally right that bitmaps aren't the way to do equations (or lots of other things). I can agree that LaTeX isn't perfect or even that close. But it was the tool that showed that not everything had to be set by hand, that math could be free, that something like MathML would eventually become a worthy successor. Worthy, that is, if we're clever enough to design a useful input device for the stuff...
vector graphics (Score:1)
Re:Yet another twist (Score:1)
SVG? (Score:2)
Not Quite [w3.org]
It is getting close though, and with plugins and authoring support already coming from the major graphics application vendors, promises to have a chance of being used in the mainstream.
Combine SVG with a DOM and scripting support (the obvious being Java^H^H^H^HECMAScript) and you have the beginning of an open standard Flash killer.
W3C vector graphic format (Score:1)
You mean SVG [w3.org]? The non-proprietary W3C developed vector graphics format that I can view (admittedly only a limited subset of) in my browser [mozilla.org] today?
Stuart.
MathML (and SVG) for Mozilla. (Score:2)
The M18 milestone of Mozilla has binaries with the MathML support compiled in, so you might like to give that a try. If you feel a little more adventurous, here are some pages with more recent binaries with MathML support - Linux [dymaxion.org] and Win32 [dhs.org]. These also have SVG support compiled in as well for vector images and the Linux binaries have XSL as well.
For more general information, take a look at the Mozilla MathML page. [mozilla.org]
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Re:TeX (Score:2)
$\frac{1}{x}$ to write 1/x
is pretty easy, i'll have to check out the math ml and see what it's like. or i'll probably just write everything in LaTeX and use tex2html which has pretty nice output.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
Re:I don't quite know what to make of this... (Score:1)
MathML and SVG build of Mozilla (Score:1)
Some of you might be interested in the MathML and SVG of Mozilla. That build requires NO PLUG-INS to do simple SVG and decent MathML.
The future of the web should be: built in SVG (and for math stuff: built in MathML). Most of the little graphics and font hacks that are currently necessary to build a web page would go away if we can get built in SVG in the major browsers.
When people think SVG and they hear that it is a replacement for Flash, they don't realize that the advanced features of Flash are not could be put to immediate use on most web pages. Scaleable fonts of a guaranteed size and simple graphics are must more valuable. Take the page that you are reading right now for example. There should be no reason that you have to download the title bar text "Slashdot News for Nerds..." as a pixmap graphic.
Plug-ins are not the best solution for MathML and SVG/Flash.
Swell (Score:2)
Re:Does this still require a plug-in? (Score:1)
no. xml is a standard. it's up to users to adopt it.
Grossly Overcomplicated (Score:2)
MathML is another one of those things that tries to be all things to all people, all at the same time. Result is yet another markup language trying to be a page description language.
As a counter suggestion, how about something based on the old eqn preprocessor for troff? Simple and easy to understand, and far more in the "content, not format" spirit than MathML. Brian Kernighan was supposedly [cmu.edu] working on something like this. Any news?
--
Re:TeX (Score:1)
i dont see why they cannot just take raw tex formatting and use that. why create a whole other language to do the same thing?
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
"Centuries of refinement" ? (Score:1)
That notations are complicated is clear, but it's not clear to me that there have been centuries of refinement. My impression is that it's more like months of refinement spread out across centuries of accepting the status quo.
When someone creates a new form of mathematics, she usually get to define the notation for it. If she has no ability in design or semiotics, you may end up with something very far from clear and optimal. In creating notation, you want to take the abstract and make it concrete. But many mathematicians thrive in the highly abstract, and find beauty in representing entire constructs with a single letter.
The strong sense of continuity and tradition in mathematics seem to ensure that the notation will likely be frozen in that state. If we were to take all we've learned about psychology, perception, and structured computer programming, we could probably come up with a unified notational system for math that streamlined everything considerably. Just a hypothesis.
Ehh who needs it? (Score:1)
-Chris
...More Powerful than Otto Preminger...
Re:Grossly Overcomplicated (Score:1)
Welcome to the world of XML (Score:1)
To see what I mean compare any hand written HTML document with a compliant XHTML document. What it comes down to is this: non-trivial XML documents basically have to be machine generated.
Whether this is a good or a bad thing is left as an excersize for the reader. I personanly think that no matter how many open-source/portable/perfect document generators there are, there will always be a market for typing this stuff in straight text, in a format designed to be hand-editable.
I really personally dont see what the big deal is with XML. Its a nice system for defining text document formats that follow a narrow set of rules and can be edited by hand (but doing that is error prone and unforgiving of mistakes). Its not going to change the world per-se, though it might help to unify formatted documents.
Re:Bitmaps for equations -- what a disaster! (Score:2)
Funny, I don't remember saying it went down in flames anywhere. "Especially" on the web? No, it didn't "go down in flames" anywhere. Not on the web, not in PDF. Not in a car, not in a boat, not on a train. All I remember saying is that the equations were ugly and slow-loading in the html version, because they were bitmaps.
"Jury-rigged tools"? Did I say that? I can't seem to find it in my original post.
Your hand-baked approach to putting physics on the web didn't work so well, because, as you point out, there was no way to separate form from content that way.
Not at all. PageMaker does have stylesheets and other mechanisms for separating form from content. They work fine, and that wasn't the problem with the conversion to html. The problem with conversion to html was that I had to do the equations as bitmaps. Maybe you should actually read people's posts before replying to them. The whole thing is a www/html/browser problem, not a problem with PageMaker (although PageMaker is replete with other problems, like crashing a lot).
The key word is enforce. I don't want it enforced, because sometimes machines are stupid and makes the wrong choices.
The people who use tools to design tools to make tools. We are the lords of the Shell, the emperors of Perl, we dominate the DOM.
I'd think the appropriate attitude for a Lord of Bits would be that if you want to do something, the computer shouldn't make you have to jump through hoops to do it. Do you also want a language that doesn't let you operate on data types at the bit level? Do you want an OS like Windows that doesn't let you change the startup screens? Gosh, if MS didn't enforce a particular startup screen on you, someone might get hurt.
The Assayer [theassayer.org] - free-information book reviews
Re:Bloatware and older browsers (Score:1)
The Assayer [theassayer.org] - free-information book reviews
good news? (Score:1)
And then I laid my eyes on some sample MathML.
To write (a+b)^2 in MathML you would have to do this (paraphrased from the W3C's page).
<MATH>
<MROW>
<MSUP>
<MFENCED>
<MROW>
<MI>a</MI>
<MO>+</MO>
<MI>b</MI>
</MROW>
<MFENCED>
<MN>2</MN>
<MSUP>
<MROW>
</MATH>
Whereas in LaTeX, you would write $(a+b)^2$.
This is nothing new, MathML1.0 looked just as bad, pure shit infact. It was never intended to be written or read by hand, but to be a low level, generallity of math typesetting. And this begs the question, what the fuck is it for? It is ML and therefore it is highlevel, all those tags don't make it any more readable by a computer, like <MO>+</MO> wow plus is a math operator, no shit. TeX powerful enough to describe everything mathmatical, and simple enough to write by hand. Why?
Why, why, why? We don't write javascript with tags. I for one won't write anything unless I can do a <MATH LANG="TeX">.
Re:MathML Finally Starts Showing Up (Score:1)
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
Bloatware and older browsers (Score:2)
If Opera or iCab ever support it, that would probably finally motivate me to dump NS 4.72. But I'm sorry, I just refuse to downgrade to the latest NS/Mozilla/IE. Every browser is just bigger, slower, and more buggy than the last. What I really want is NS 4.73 -- you know, the bug-release version of NS 4.72 that would never crash, and would fix bugs like incorrect rendering of stylesheets.
I think we're looking at a really long delay -- maybe 10 years -- before anyone can really start writing MathML into their pages with any confidence that the typical user will have a browser that displays it correctly. Look at Java 1.1. It's been years since 1.1 came out, and I still have to have a warning at the top of my 1.1 applet's page [lightandmatter.com] explaining that it won't work with the NS+MacOS combination.
The Assayer [theassayer.org] - free-information book reviews
Re:Welcome to the world of XML (Score:1)
I personally love using LyX for creating TeX documents. I like being able to see my equations as I work. It also gives you the ability to type in equations similar to normal TeX OR use the mouse to click on math symbols. Plus you can see your postscrip figures in the document.
Ideally, you could embed a MathML equation that would be rendered in the browser, but also provide and alternate image in the document that can be loaded if the browser does not support MathML (like in latex2html)
huh? (Score:1)
When you're making a web site, you can't expect people to 1) visit the site that hosts the plug-in, 2) fill in a registration form, 3) download your software, 4) exit Netscape, 5) run "setup.exe" 6) restart Netscape, 7) Find your website again. They'll just go to some other website instead.
Furthermore, lots of KDE users just use kfm as their web browser, and lots of GNOME users use Galeon. Plug-in makers don't make plug-ins for anything but Netscape and IE. Sometimes you can't get a UNIX plug-in at all.
My grandmother gets free cable internet from their city government that runs through the TV cable and is accessed from an appliance that sits on top of the TV and also functions as the cable TV decoder. This device doesn't support plug-ins at all. So your argument breaks down completely in this instance.
Now in our case, we can probably install MathML plug-ins on our machines and administer the test, since we control the machines on the client-side. But most plug-ins are generally worthless, and forcing your website readers to use them is textbook example of a Really Bad Idea.
========
Stephen C. VanDahm
Re:huh? (Score:1)
When VisCal 1.0 came out -- there was only selected hardware that it would run on. And than when ver 2.0, and onward came out, those versions required new OS and new hardware configuration. The majority of the users, went out and upgraded there conf. to be able to run VisCal. The rest took more time but eventually cached on.
Now coming back to the browsers plug-in, if you are still using a browser that doesn't support the latest tech, than yes you are out of luck -- and my answer is: too bad -- because the rest of the world wants to move on but you don't seem to want to.
I still remember the days when people demanded that the latest version of their favorite application written for Win 3.1 to also run on MS-DOS 3.0 with the SAME features and capability on the old MS-DOS 3.0 hardware with no hard-disk. A lot of companies got burned out when they got such demands from the marketing folks and couldn't deliver.
So, if your grandmother wants to be able to do plug-in via her appliance, than she needs a hardware that supports it. Yes, such hardware doesn't exists today, but that doesn't mean MathML is dead on arrival and eventually once those hardware are available, she will move on to that hardware.
As for "...is textbook example of a Really Bad Idea" -- I don't get it. Requiring users to use the plug-in is no different as requiring users to have an HTML browser to access the sit in the first place.
Re:Tex, here's why: (Score:1)
Knuth spent 10 years on TeX.
It was one man, not a commitee,
and he designed it with
much more than math equations in mind.
It is able to be hand written;
MathML is too bulky to be done by hand.
And as for vector graphics,
TeX is actually based on Metafont
which supports all kinds of graphics operations
tho' without colour...(yet)
Unfortunately, a TeX pluggin hasn't materialized...?
and probably won't: TeX is a HUGE system.
Also, TeX doesn't support semantic content,
but serious mathematicians have little use for that anyway.
Oh, Knuth, where are you now?
Save us from this pitiful XML nonsense!
Re:Welcome to the world of XML (Score:1)
i use vi for everything from html to dissertation. my advisor thinks i'm on crack. i just havent found anything that beats vim and a good
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
Kewl (Score:4)
Finally, a way to teach terrorists about fission with web pages that make everything look correct! This is truly a great thing, praise the green bug god for this. Now to have my minions can study mathematics and chemistry as i force them to slave away scraping watch hands so that I can collect enough fissionable material!
How long... (Score:2)
And this applies to me how? (Score:2)
Whoever decided on that font on the w3 site (Score:2)
I don't quite know what to make of this... (Score:1)
MathML Finally Starts Showing Up (Score:1)
Every time a solution to my HTML problems comes out, it takes years to get supported, it's inconsistent (style sheets), and by the time it's actually reliable, it's darn near irrelevant. I, at least, need a faster method of implementing solutions. Waiting on the browser gang is like waiting on Death.
1Alpha7
Tex (Score:1)
kewl-la-la-la (Score:1)
If you read the article, you can see that MathML 2.0 designing goals include
"Facilitate conversion to and from other mathematical formats, both presentational and semantic.
Output formats should include:
And I'll be able to throw away my PIII-G400-17" computer to look at these maths on my favorite VT320 (amber on black or green on black) !!!
Excellent. (Score:1)
Sigma n=0 -> Infinity ((x^n))/(n!) = e^x
without seeming utterly mad! Muahahaha!
Re:And this applies to me how? (Score:2)
I'm sorry if I'm coming across as really harsh, but I think that it's something that needed to be said. I'm looking forward to playing around with this technology. It looks really interesting and quite a bit more flexable than using screen shots of MathCAD.
_____________
Yet another twist (Score:1)
... and people wonder why there are no decent browsers. How can browsers be compliant with the W3C standards if said standards change every other week? If the W3C would just quit twiddling around with stuff, perhaps we could get a few browsers written, debugged, and working properly before the spec changed yet again.
--LordEq
Tho' your promise count for nothing
Re:And this applies to me how? (Score:1)
Re:MathML Finally Starts Showing Up (Score:1)
http://puccini.che.pitt.edu/~karlj/Classes/CHE210
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
Re:And this applies to me how? (Score:1)
The death of (La)TeX? (Score:2)
Re:Yet another twist (Score:1)
Re:"Centuries of refinement" ? (Score:2)
Brett
Re:How relevant is it to most of us? (Score:1)
how are the articles about nanotechnology relevant to most of us? or what about D-VHS? synthesizers made from old commodore 64 parts?
this is news for nerds...
i think all of the above catagories including the incorporation of mathml specs into the html standard apply to nerds of one type or another.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
not meant for hand coding, rather machine2machine (Score:3)
The standard proposes to do lots, including:
Facilitate conversion to and from other mathematical formats, both presentational and semantic. Output formats should include
Anything which will allow input and output into Mathematica and TeX both (let alone the others) is going to not be something that you can not type directly by hand, so for this standard it would be unfair to expect that. Instead, it is important to make sure that the standard includes the important mathematical notions that will port from TeX and computer algebra systems. (to me, that means all of TeX and LaTeX except the page-layout specific features, and most of Mathematica, Maple, and Matlab...)
It may be that the standard is trying to do too much or that it would only be useful to the mathematical elite, but given the ambitious role it is clear that the standard will need to be complicated and presumably not suitable for unaided digestion or production.
See the standards page here [w3.org], for the 12 line code for the expression for (a+b)^2.
Re:Welcome to the world of XML (Score:1)
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
Re:TeX (Score:2)
Re:get the math right (Score:1)
e(i*pi)-1 = 0
is a beautiful equation. in incorporates all of the important numbers e, pi, i, 0 and 1. i've often thought that if i ever got a tatoo that would be it. yes i know i'm a nerd.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
Re:Tex, here's why: (Score:1)
Re:Bloatware and older browsers (Score:2)
OBJECT SOURCE="mypic.mpg" TYPE="video/mpeg"> OBJECT SOURCE="mypic.png" TYPE="image/png"> <OBJECT SOURCE="mypic.gif" TYPE="image/gif"> A picture of myself. </OBJECT> </OBJECT> </OBJECT>
Notice how if the browser has no idea on OBJECT, it just reports the text. If it does know how to handle OBJECT, it looks at the type in the first tag, sees if it can handle it, and if not, continues down the embedded OBJECT list until it does find a type it can handle, or otherwise the 'alternate' text. This was to replace IMG since the alternate text can now be appropriately marked up with HTML.
So for a MathXL situation, I'd have the mathxl in the outer loop, a gif of the equation in the inner one, and possibly something like troff equation output as the alternate text. Those that have browsers that render MathXL would see it with no problem, those without it would see the equation still, and those in text mode would see the troff eq. Of course, this would require a bit more work on the part of the page designer, but certainly I'm sure tools would be made available to convert mathXL to gifs easily.
The problem is, guess how many of {IE|NS} for {PC|MAC|Unix} have adequete support for OBJECT?
Re:Yet another twist (Score:1)
Waitaminute! SVG is a Candidate Recommendation, which means, they are actually waiting for implementations to be non-sucky. So you just write code instead of rant here!
typesetting vs. markup (Score:1)
Re:Does this still require a plug-in? (Score:1)
Well, a browser plug-ins are no different than a software or hardware update.
If you disagree, than you should still be using a 1980s hardware and software.
Yes, it is a pain. But there is no gain with out a pain. Go figure.
Re:How long... (Score:1)
Does this still require a plug-in? (Score:4)
Our little college is looking into MathML as a possible way to give online placement tests to incoming first-year students, and I found that it required special browser plug-ins to work. So I'm guessing that a browsers like Opera, kfm, and my grandmother's TV internet appliance are just out of luck. Needless to say, I'm not very comfortable with depending on browser plug-ins for anything.
How soon is it going to be before browsers support this stuff out-of-the-box, without me having to download and install a stupid plug-in?
========
Stephen C. VanDahm
How relevant is it to most of us? (Score:1)
MathML markup is not primarily intended for direct use by authors. While MathML is human-readable, which helps a lot in debugging it, in all but the simplest cases it is too verbose and error-prone for hand generation. Instead, it is anticipated that authors will use equation editors, conversion programs, and other specialized software tools to generate MathML.
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Re:Whoever decided on that font on the w3 site (Score:1)
Re:kewl-la-la-la (Score:1)
I've used and still use some VT 320 to surf the web (lynx), trace graphics (with gnuplot on a DECwriter) and, of course, play tetris !
And i'm very happy because i've recently got a VT510 that I've been able to link to my Linux box
--
TeX and MathML (Score:1)
Re:MathML Finally Starts Showing Up (Score:1)
http://puccini.che.pitt.edu/~karlj/Classes/CHE210
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
TeX (Score:2)
Moz.
Working group membership... (Score:1)
Re:I don't quite know what to make of this... (Score:1)
Sounds...useless (Score:1)
With the dominant browser being IE and MS' consumer focus I really don't see this standard ever being implemented for a meaningful percentage of people. And then MS will implement it just wrong enough to make it worthless.
I hate to say it, but if you're really doing this stuff you probably already know (La)TeX, so you can just write it up in that and generate a graphic, or distribute the (La)TeX. Using graphics to represent this stuff on the web isn't optimal, but at least you know it will work and display right. (Sorry to you freaks who browse text only ;)
ChrisRe:And this applies to me how? (Score:3)
I am not aware of the history on any of the vector attempts, but I do not believe that there have been as many people working on it for as long. After all, many people have their vector needs served adequately by any of the many proprietary plugins, since all they need is for people to be able to view the output; but those needing math to communicate have a much longer history of open information sharing, and need a common language.