RMS: Putting an End to Word Attachments 1022
sombragris writes "I've spotted in NewsForge a very interesting editorial by none other than RMS himself on the subject of getting rid of those annoying MS Word attachment that people send. The essay is worth thinking and doubtless worth implementing." I've found that KWord and Abiword both did a fine job of reading Word files - it's the being able to Save As Word where things get messy.
unfortunate ? (Score:4, Insightful)
Most Word users, I expect, want to write letters to their mothers, not recompile the application.
Thats not the problem (Score:4, Insightful)
You don't need email with Word attachments. The problem is having such a format be so widespead that it interferes with normal communication, like email. I am a UNIX network engineer that has been bitten *many* times by the 'please send a resume as a Word doc'. That is difficult if you don't run Windows at all.
Though I generally feel RMS isn't an effective speaker, he definitely has a point here. Honestly, do people really need Word for the majority of text documents? Is everyone sending emails with tabular, image-embedded documents? I think not.
Resume in Word format (Score:4, Informative)
If they are not willing to go that small distance for me, there is generally not going to be a good working relationship anyway.
Re:Thats not the problem (Score:3, Interesting)
How about the fact that standard ASCII (ie. this magic, all-purpose, solves every problem, format) that Dick Stallman is talking about isn't actually capable of transmitting many european languages and very few asian languages. Not to mention the complete lack of greek, cyrillic, scientific, latin, and mathematical notation, that many people need to communicate.
I bet Dick Stallman is going to ask everybody to speak and write in Esperanto next.
Doesn't anybody else find it ironic that a man who decides to go off and write his own documentation system (info) when a standard already exists (man), is asking people to change away from a "closed" format? I mean shit, more apps support
Re:Thats not the problem (Score:4, Insightful)
I think he was trying to make two points. This is one of them, the other is that sending Word attachments complicates life for people who don't use Word -- and unintentionally or intentionally continues the idea that Word is the de facto standard so everyone should just go ahead and buy Windows and Office and conform already.
If you're happy using proprietary MS products, cool. That's okay, I don't agree with it, but whatever. Just don't force your choice on my by choosing to send a proprietary bloated attachment instead of a nice neat plain-text message that I could read in my mail client.
It's one thing if you're sending a QuarkXPress attachment to a printer so they can do a job for you. That justifies a proprietary format, rather than sending plain-text. But many PR people and business folks just write something in Word and attach it, when it's a press release or something that could be plain-text with no loss in information.
It's not just a viewing thing either, RMS travels a lot and probably collects email via modem. It's annoying to spend an hour downloading your email because two jerks decided to send Word attachments rather than a simple email. I've been there, done that, hated it.
I'm a writer for several tech pubs, and I refuse to open Word attachments sent by PR flacks. Send it in plain text, or forget about being covered. I'd do the same thing even if I used Windows. Why? Because sending attachments that can carry viruses is also rude.
There are a lot of good reasons NOT to send Word attachments, and no good reasons to send them.
I only wish someone else other than RMS had spoken up about this. People automatically dismiss RMS because they percieve him as being too rigid, which he is, but he has good points as well.
Re:Thats not the problem (Score:4, Insightful)
Hmmm, no good reasons to send Word attachments? How about formatting, tables, graphics, password-protection, spelling/grammar checking, highlighting, correction/collaboration. All supported by the fact that (as RMS admits) most computer users can read Word documents - even if it's a scaled down Wordpad reader.
Good reasons to send Word attachments (Score:4, Insightful)
I use Word attachments every day. I couldn't do my job without them.
Is Word the best thing since sliced bread? No.
Is Word worth using? Yes.
The main thing I use Word for, besides all the fancy formatting stuff which is not even strictly necessary, is collaboration/reviewing. I write professionally, and I need to be able to track changes through several review cycles (editors, client, legal, publication). To my knowledge, no other widely-available word processing solution supports these features, at least not the extent the .doc format does.
But it's still not enough to make me use MSWord for all my editing (although I keep a copy in my VMware Win98 just in case). I use StarOffice 6 and love it. I really only have two qualms about it:
When I first switched to using Linux full-time for work, nobody at the office noticed. (I telecommute, so no one could actually see my desktop.) At the time, I was using Mandrake + KMail + StarOffice 5.2 -- the only one who knew about it was the editor directly above me, and he's cool with Linux. (Even he wouldn't have known if I hadn't told him.)
What I mean to say is: the Word .doc format has a number of very useful features I couldn't live without. But that doesn't mean I have to use Word. In Evolution, I can open Word attachments in StarOffice seamlessly -- and since StarOffice doesn't quite support VB, I've yet to find a document which could cause damage to my system.
I do agree, however, that you shouldn't use .doc files when something simpler or lighter (like plain text) would do the job as well. I'm involved with PR, and I've seen embarrassing things happen to clients when someone stupid converts a Word doc to HTML and posts it on their site. One page had internal tracking info in the title which actually referred to a different project which had been used as source material. On the website, this information was paraded across the title bar.
Tangent: why does Word include a "title" field in the document properties which it never displays to the user? Word's titlebar just shows the filename without path -- for me, a completely useless piece of informaiton, since I often have identically-named but very different files in separate sections of my file tree. StarOffice's title bar (which displays the contents of the "title" field) is much, much better... yet another reason to use .doc, and just not use M$Word.
Hey, sorry to ramble on like this.... just my two and a half cents.
Re:Thats not the problem (Score:3, Interesting)
Use PDF. Or HTML.
Password protection?
Don't use Word. Ever. That's almost as bad as using pkzip encryption. Word encryption is worse than useless as it gives you a false sense of security.
Spelling/grammer checking?
Um - what word processors don't have spell checkers? Grammer? Well, I suppose it's nice, but if you can't string a sentence together that scans properly, go back to school and get an education. And that's only a reason to use Word as an editor. That's not a reason to send the final version as a Word attachment. Sure, write in word. But why not still send as plain text. Most of the stuff I get as word attachments is just that - plain text. Just wrapped up in a huge word document.
Correction/collaboration? OK - you might have me there. I've no idea of how Word's version works or if any other package has it or not, as I've never had a need for it. *shrug*
Re:Thats not the problem (Score:3, Interesting)
Agreed.
But Word does not even necessarily make things easier for collaboration.
Example: In a meeting with the IT staff of another company, we were discussing the contents of a particular MS Word document that they had sent us. But their fonts/default Word preferences/printers/whatever were slightly different from ours. So although we both used MS Word in order to be able to reference the same material efficiently, we weren't even on the same page...Literally.
Using PDF would probably have solved that little hassle.
Re:Thats not the problem (Score:5, Insightful)
It's about having the freedom to do this, not necessarily using it.
To take an analogy from another post, I wouldn't buy a car with the hood locked so only the dealer could open it. But let me be frank -- there is really nothing productive I could do by opening the hood, except check the oil. I'm useless with cars. But being -able- to is good. Plus, I know that if I had a friend who did know cars, they could modify it.
Similarly, I am very glad that I have rights under the Freedom of Information Act, even though I've never used them and may never feel the need to.
Just because you, personally may never hack a line of code in an app doesn't mean that you don't benefit from having the right to. Remember, you have the right to and so does everyone else, and "everyone else" includes a lot of programmers.
Re:Thats not the problem (Score:4, Insightful)
It's funny, because in the article that spawned this discussion, he doesn't once say anything against using Word, just sending documents in Word format to others.
But sending people documents in Word format (and refusing to cease this practice) is much closer to "forcing" someone else to use Word. It's not literally forcing, but it is applying leverage on them, if they want to read your docs. I can't actually think of anytime RMS has applied any leverage on someone to use free software.
Same with my car (Score:2, Redundant)
Re:Same with my car (Score:3, Insightful)
1) Cars require regular maintenance. Word processors don't (or shouldn't).
2) Cars cost hundred times more than word processors.
3) Amortization and used car sale.
More appropriate comparison would be with something like your coffee maker. Many of us use things every day, but we don't care what's inside.
Re:Same with my car (Score:4, Flamebait)
2. Then explain to me why SQL Server, which can cost $5000 per processor, is closed. Stick that on a four processor machine, and you could have bought a nice car instead.
3. Not important to the argument.
I expect that for CAN$100 to $200, I am able to open up a piece of hardware and do whatever I like to it. I can take, say, the aforementioned coffee maker, and replace the power cord if the cat chews on it.
I can do the equivalent with OpenOffice or KWord, if I was sufficiently skilled. I cannot do so with Word, or any proprietary software. If there is a simple problem with the software, which I think I could fix given the source code and half an hour, I can't. I have to wait for Microsoft to do it, which they may never ever do.
That, my friend, is the point.
Re:Same with my car (Score:3, Interesting)
2. It's exactly my point. We're not discussing SQL server or some other server software here, but just word processors. For server software, the original RMS analogy with cars is valid.
3. It is important, because car internals degrade with time and people need to be able to open the hood to see the actual condition for themselves. Not the case with Word Processors (or any other shrink-wrapped applications).
About the coffee maker... If your cat chews the power cord or deletes one of the program DLLs, you can easily restore the original condition of the program by reinstalling. With software like word processor, you can easily return to the original condition if needed. Try this with cars.
How many people are thinking: "Wish I had the MS Word source code, I would do this and that..."? Not many. That's the point.
Re:Same with my car (Score:3, Informative)
2. A car is a car is a car, whether its a 2002 Viper or a 1985 Ford Tempo. A 1985 Ford Tempo, if you can find one, can probably be purchased for the same as Word. Software is software is software, no matter what the price point.
3. I write Content Management software for a web development company. People need to get into that code all the time. People need to get into the code in Word, or Outlook, or other Office products to fix buffer overflows and other bugs. The fact that I can't but Joe at Redmond can is the point, and the problem.
4. (the coffee maker argument) Point to you, *but* if I heavily modified my cars looks (a fair number of people heavily tweak the settings in Word, turning off things like AutoCorrect), and somebody broke a window, I'd rather not have to make my car look like it did when I first drove it off the lot. Similarly, I'd rather not have to download all my patches again because my mom accidentally deleted some obscure file I didn't know that Word needed.
The point is that anybody who happens to think that "I wish I could change function X in Word, because it isn't powerful enough for me" is in no way allowed to do that. Just because you will never exercise a liberty does not mean that it's okay to take that liberty away. Slippery slope, and all that.
Re:unfortunate ? (Score:4, Funny)
I would think that most Word users don't want their mother to catch a bunch of viruses. What kind of scumbag would train their mother to accept Word documents?!
one way to make them stop (Score:3, Interesting)
He quickly changed the greeting to a .TXT
Later, on my advice, he made it an .RTF so he could font & format. This created sufficient confusion among other recipients that he had to change it back.
Red Herring (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is an Open-Standards, not Open-Source, iss (Score:3, Funny)
They have submitted RFC's on the MS WOrd format. Their submissions were answered with:
Thank you for your submission. Unfortunately, we are unable to publish it in its current format. Please resend the attachment as plain text.
Re:unfortunate ? (Score:3, Funny)
And while we're at it. Stallman's solution is " All we have to do is ask each person who sends us a Word file to reconsider that way of doing things."
Sure. Why don't we "ask" them to stop top-posting, sending HTML mail, and clicking on "snow_white.txt.vbs".
(I've been saying "Sorry, I don't do Windows" to .DOC files for years. It hasn't stopped the lusers yet. The worst time was when someone sent me a list of names in .DOC, and then resent it as a column of cells in an Excel spreadsheet. No, they weren't being sarcastic, they were just. that. dumb. To this luser, Word and Excel were the only applications on their computer.)
Re:RMS is full of shit (Score:4, Insightful)
In a word, yes.
The only reason you would NOT use MS Office is ideology.
Oh, and ideology is such a horrible thing. Ideology is what prompted colonists to buck taxation without representation too. I guess you think that's horrible as well.
Pragmatism is not such a wonderful thing. You can thank pragmatism for corporations who would rather pay MS license fees than save jobs.
Then I got a job and learnt that tolerance instead of shitty elitism is the way to go. Too bad RMS never learnt that.
Asking people to send plain-text or HTML is not "shitty elitism" -- it's asking people to recognize that they are non-proprietary formats that anyone can view on any platform. How is that bad? Maybe you don't like RMS' phrasing, which is understandable because he tends to devolve into hippy-ish terminology, but the ideas are valid.
Asking people not to send MS attachments, politely, is not fanaticism. It's an attempt to change people's minds. You don't like it? Fine, but don't call it fanaticism, because it's not. It's simply a viewpoint that's different than yours. He has a right to express it. If you think differently, (that he shouldn't express it, not that you don't agree) perhaps RMS isn't the fanatic here.
You didn't learn tolerance, you conformed. There's a difference. Tolerance would be understanding that the world is not fully comprised of Microsoft Word users, and that there are people who do not want to be forced to use Word to correspond with the people who choose to -- or who simply don't think about it at all.
Re:RMS is full of shit (Score:3, Insightful)
Elitism is not the same thing as disliking or even hating proprietary software. Please, for the love of whatever God you worship and the good of humanity, buy a fscking dictionary and look words up before you use them. It degrades the language when you don't use it properly.
(And that is probably a good example of me being an elitist language snob, which doesn't bother me in the least. I have a funny idea that people should be able to master their native language...)
RMS isn't asking that people use *Free* Software to send email, merely that they don't use proprietary formats. That's not unreasonable. Granted, RMS would probably prefer it if you did, but that's not the discussion here. Discussion works much better if you limit yourself to the actual discussion rather than trying to re-frame the discussion.
Yes, let's not be software Nazis. Let's all use software that can communicate in open formats so that everyone can use what they want. I agree with that. That doesn't discount Word, either -- it just means that they have to hit "save as" and choose text or HTML. Unfortunately, when someone chooses to send Word docs, they're forcing me to:
A. Give up my preferred program for reading email and open the attachment in another program. (I also despise HTML and PDF for this, but that's just a general hatred of attachments...)
B. Adopt a program I don't like and do not wish to pay for.
C. Not read the attachment.
Asking people to send a non-proprietary format is not unreasonable.
Asking that no one dare bring the topic up because it disagrees with your world-view and because you happen to think that everyone should just conform and use YOUR choice is unreasonable.
Re:RMS is full of shit (Score:3, Informative)
The only reason you would NOT use MS Office is ideology. "
True. And by my ideology, stealing is wrong. Since I can't afford to buy a copy of MS Office (and really wouldn't wish to spend that much money simply to read email attachments, even if I could), I don't have MS Office. There's also the little fact that I run linux on my home system, and Office isn't known for it's compatibility with linux. And no, I don't run linux for political or ideological reasons; I run linux because I believe it's a better system. My computer doesn't crash, I don't have to upgrade my system every time a new version is released, and I have massive amounts of free (as in beer) software to play with. The fact that I agree with much of the ideology is a bonus, but wasn't enough to get me over to linux until I found that it suited my needs much better than Windows did.
Re:RMS is full of shit (Score:3, Insightful)
I think that's why most linux-users use linux. I recall that the reason I first used it was because Windows 95 sucked really badly(crash, crash, crash. Even when I wasn't moving the mouse, even with a fresh, clean install. Call it hardware problems, but every other OS ran without any problems.)
Later I found out it was free and the code was available, and I thought "Cool! I legally own this software!", and it was a bonus.
The person above has apparantly never needed to pay for his software, nor does he have a problem with people being forced to buy redundant copies of software(I use lotus wordpro or Cetus WordPad -- why the hell should I be forced to pay for software I consider inferior, especially when it's so damn expensive?)
Re:RMS is full of shit (Score:3, Insightful)
Or, he should steal it?
Isn't politely asking the user to send it in another format, one that they have in common, a better answer?
.doc is a de facto standard (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:.doc is a de facto standard (Score:4, Insightful)
Word documents, along with other proprietary formats, especially ones which may or may not be able to be opened with future software, are a bad idea for information transfer.
It's a stupid, terrible, dumb standard which Microsoft revels in because it helps to ensure their position and sales.
It behooves everyone who uses computers to compose documents and share information to break the current standard
This, I believe, is RMS's point. The fact that he has Open Source advocates' ears is a fact of reality, not the ideal.
Re:.doc is a de facto standard (Score:2, Insightful)
No matter how much it may seem that
Re:.doc is a de facto standard (Score:4, Redundant)
Re:.doc is a de facto standard (Score:5, Insightful)
And by the way, you shouldn't be so quick to underestimate Microsoft's morals/motives. They're monopolistic and nosy and untrustworthy, granted, but they do make good products that are easy to use and featureful. It's naive to believe that they are into just screwing the customer over with every successful revision. If they really were that stupid and antipathetic towards the people paying the bills, I doubt they'd be the largest software company in the entire world.
Re:.doc is a de facto standard (Score:5, Insightful)
No.
RMS' main problem with Word format is that it is non-standard, and most people probably don't care. But that isn't the only problem that format has. The other major problem it has is the same thing you'll find in most MS formats: it contains too much power. In order to support Word format in a Word-compatable way, you have to support the scripting language and virus capability too.
And that is a Bad Thing, even if you don't give a damn about open vs closed formats. Getting people off Word format is a good idea for everyone except for anti-virus software vendors.
So if RMS' goal seems unrealistic because it's too idealistic, by all means, just be pragmatic instead. And the pragmatic thing to do is say goodbye to MS Word's file format.
Re:.doc is a de facto standard (Score:2)
I don't much care if Word is closed-source or not. But I sure think it would be nice if the file format were an open format. If that were the case, other applications could easily be written to use it.
Even better would be if Microsoft used an open format that was agreed upon by some standards-making body - instead of constantly changing its own "standard" to try and stay ahead of the competition.
And as long as I'm dreaming, I'd like a million dollars.
Re:.doc is a de facto standard (Score:4, Insightful)
While the premise of your argument may be unfortunately true, the suggestion simply won't work because Microsoft won't let it work. That's why they keep changing the format and don't publish the spec in the first place.
Re:.doc is a de facto standard (Score:2, Informative)
Adobe has a little advertised web service [adobe.com] that will convert a variety of documents formats, including MS Office, to PDF files. Cost is 9.95 a month, but the 5 conversion freebie trial which is controlled by email address.
Re:.doc is a de facto standard (Score:2)
Re:.doc is a de facto standard (Score:2, Informative)
The difference is, PDF is perfectly readable with a number of tools, free and Free and not, without issues.
Unless things have changed, nothing reads word docs correctly all of the time...
Re:We have been trying to do that for years. (Score:2, Flamebait)
Well, except for the fact that it makes us look like incompetent computer users and annoys our clients who now have to take the extra time required to open up the document, save out as text, or paste the text directly into an e-mail message
It's quite obvious that RMS has no experience in the real world where a client says "You must meet the following qualifications to do work with us: (Begin list that includes having MS Word)"
Dinivin
Wow...! (Score:2, Redundant)
While often I agree with him, half the time I can't stand the way he browbeats you with how wrong you are. I think this article was well-written and reasonable...
Scary. =)
Wow indeed (Score:3, Troll)
I mean, I'm with you if you mean "reasonable for RMS," but did you read the "polite" responses he had?
Can you imagine how anyone in the mainstream corporate world would react to any of them?
At best, they'd think you're a paranoid loon. At worst, they'd get furious at you and spread their opinions to others.
Tons of people following this advice would be the single biggest setback that free software would have in the corporate world.
That said, an actual polite response would probably get some effect. Something explaining that you do not use Word, what formats you'd accept, and how to do so in Word.
Education (Score:3, Interesting)
I think what is required is mass education... every time some nitnoid sends you an Email with a Word document attached, and nothing in the Word document but text, respond! Don't just shake your head, think "what an idiot", and read it... respond to the Email!
Bernie will sue (Score:5, Funny)
Wishful Thinking (Score:2, Redundant)
A couple of points:
1. There are plenty of Office Suites out there that understand the Word Format. (StarOffice and Koffice to name two.)
2. Microsoft has already stated they are switching to the non-proprietary XML format for their standard document format.
3. While I do like GPL and Freeware I also believe that we need to have comercialware. Let's see, if all software was free then why would anyone in their right mind want to spend money to study programming at a an instituion? Why get a degree in software engineering?
Re:Wishful Thinking (Score:4, Insightful)
because the mob is polite... (Score:3, Funny)
What, you mean completely ignored?
Save a HTML (Score:4, Informative)
It's a shame, as XHTML and CSS allows for very clean separation of content from presentation... maybe someday they will hit critical mass and it will be the accepted form of "rich" content presentation. But for now I have to slog through RTF, Word, Powerpoint (ugh) and Excel documents that are not converted cleanly to the office suites on Linux.
Demoroniser (Re:Save a HTML) (Score:3, Informative)
T
PDF? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:PDF? (Score:4, Informative)
Scroll down to the File Format Specification section.
Doc 2 html (Score:2)
Re:Doc 2 html (Score:2)
Personal versus Political (Score:5, Insightful)
A more general issue is that all of the examples provided are political in nature.
Could one accomplish something similar with a message like "I'm sorry but I'm unable to read documents in Microsoft Word format because I use Linux. Please send your document in a format that I can read, such as ASCII Text or PDF."
Educating people about the political issues surrounding proprietary document formats isn't always appropriate in a business situation. If I need to ask a customer to use a format other than Word, I also need to be able to do it in a non-alienating way. I think that Stallman offers some good suggestions, but the specific examples he provides wouldn't work well in some social contexts.
Re:Personal versus Political (Score:5, Insightful)
No. The general response (from my experience) has been, "Then you suck and there's nothing I can do about it. You should use Windows."
You _must_ explain why Word attachments themselves are the problem and how to get around them.
I've found the "size of the attachment" argument to be the most effective (and that's relative
Actually, recently, many users have been bitten enough times with transferring documents up through old versions of Word that they pay attention to, "Do you really want to be using a program which saves information in a form which may be unusable or, most probably, improperly read in a year or two?"
Finally, sometimes I just outright lie and say, "Oh, man, I'm sorry I don't have Word XP (or whatever), could you maybe save it in Word 95 format
Re:Personal versus Political (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps just turn it around, like "I'm sorry but I cannot access the file you sent me, because you sent it in a format that is only usable in Windows. Please use a format that is more accessible to all computer users, such as plain text or PDF".
Maybe?
Re:Personal versus Political (Score:4, Insightful)
"I'm sorry, but I cannot view the attachment that you sent to me because it is a Microsoft Word document (.doc extension). Microsoft Word documents are only accessible to people using software that is approved by Microsoft. Please consider using a format that is freely accessible such as HTML, PDF or plain text. This will ensure that files that you send are readable by anyone who receives them."
but RMS is making a politcal point (Score:3, Insightful)
And the whole thrust of this article was not "Let's convince people to send us documents we can read" it was "Let's use the issue of not being able to read these documents to promote the wider issue of Free Software".
I happen to disagree with RMS but what he's saying is totally consistent with his beliefs. I would no more expect him to use 'non-political' examples than I would for him to call GNU software Open Source.
OK , now what? (Score:3, Funny)
We first need ... (Score:5, Insightful)
That is, it should be possible to read and edit the same document with different open-source tools [since there is no chance that we all use the same] without loosing neither text, nor formatting or meta information (like indexes, cross-references, review marks etc...).
Re:We first need ... (Score:3, Insightful)
We first need...
Welcome to
Now, the above post was meant in jest, I understand there are sometimes where a nice looking document will go a long way (price-quotes, resumes, etc), but, really, how many people need something other than
~z
Gui for TeX (Score:3, Informative)
how's this for a solution? (Score:5, Interesting)
Explain to people that if they do this, their documents can be read by MANY more people, and that it doesn't affect them at all because MS-Word can read
.
RTF file with .doc extension (Score:5, Informative)
Re:RTF file with .doc extension (Score:3, Insightful)
This question ranks up there with, "Well, if the problem is that it takes a long time to download stuff over the Internet, why doesn't everybody just get DS-3 lines to their house? Duh."
The reason we're often dependent on the name to determine the type of a file is that so far, it seems to be the only thing that really makes sense. Requiring that an OS read the beginning of a file to determine its type isn't practical: consider the case when you open up a directory full of files, and every one has to be read in order to determine its type. Plus, any files you have that don't conform to your header standard - basically, anything that adheres to any other standard - won't show up correctly. And what do you do when the "file" is actually a block device on a *NIX system?
Using file extensions to determine the type of a file is a good idea in general, that was made into a requirement on the Windows platform. Maybe MS could have gone about it better, but I'm not going to fault them for the decision.
Oh, by the way: if you're really intent on escaping that "legacy" of DOS/Windows, just use Linux (or whatever). You can name executable files whatever you want. (although you may fuck up your terminal when you try to read it using "more". Been there, done that.)
Re:RTF file with .doc extension (Score:3, Informative)
BeOS has an excellent method that makes much more sense:
Doing it this way is much better, since the user can then name their files any way they like without worrying about confusing the OS. Since other OS's are now beginning to support file attributes, perhaps the time has come for them to start using this technique as well.
Re:how's this for a solution? (Score:3, Interesting)
Now THERE'S an application for a virus... (Score:4, Interesting)
We use HTML for our business documents (Score:2)
Biggest problem: there's no good way to handle tabbing (tables are fine but inconvenient, anything more fancy like auto-resizing spans screw up). Secretaries like being able to quickly due dot-lead tabs and such to make quick columns. HTML as implemented in IE (which we have to support so clients can view documents), doesn't have good enough tabs.
The other problem (no good concept of page, which makes documents for printing hard to edit), we've been able to solve (well enough for us) in our custom editor.
Misreading the title (Score:4, Funny)
Give as good as you get. (Score:4, Interesting)
When they reply with a "huh?" then I share some of my views on proprietary and non-standard text formats and suggest RTF when sharing docs with others. With simpler users, I'll just simplify, explaining that "RTF is the form you use when emailing documents, DOC is mostly meant for local editing before you 'publish' by printing or saving in a public format."
Until they experience the annoyance of unavailable or cyrptic data first hand, most folks will write you off as a quack for complaining. They just can't imagine a world where e-mail attachments don't open nicely so long as you know how to double-click.
Re:Give as good as you get. (Score:4, Interesting)
I can do ALL that in either Windows, Linux, or Unix. (I think there is a Mac version as well). If you'd like a wysiwyg editor - try Lyx.
Why create a NEW file format? One allready exists.
Re:Give as good as you get. (Score:5, Funny)
A few months ago I was introduced to Latex.
Another geek gets laid!
:)
Re:Give as good as you get. (Score:5, Funny)
No problem saving as .doc (Score:2, Informative)
That's just the opposite of my experience with StarOffice. I've opened .doc files from the network, with "track changes" enabled, edited them in StarOffice Writer, and then saved them. None of my coworkers were ever the wiser.
I also print a lot of homework at work. I've saved my files as Word 2000 files, opened them on Word 2000, and printed without a problem.
No need to be a prick (Score:3, Insightful)
That said, Stallman is proposing a particularly counterproductive way to go about it. When I receive a file I can't open, I send a polite message to the effect of, "I can't read that file format. Please save the file in RTF format (Select "Save As.." from the File menu, and then choose Rich Text) and resend it. In the future, please send me files that way, so I'll be able to open them right away."
That has the advantages of a) not confusing the secretary or supplier who doesn't even know that there are different file formats with some political rant about Kenya, the Microsoft monopoly, bytes and freedom, b) doesn't convince a more knowledgeable recipient that Linux users are rabid, socially dysfunctional loons and c) is the way a decent human being behaves.
Richard Stallman probably doesn't realize that when the rest of us receive a Word attachment, it's not from a reporter seeking our views on Free Software and appreciating his tantrums as a little added color for his article, it's from a coworker just doing what any normal computer user does.
Yes, we need to "Be A Prick"! (Score:3, Insightful)
Browse Slashdot at -1. How many of those trolls would you not need to beat with a clue-by-four within an inch of their lives to get them to post on-topic? (I don't mean just once or sometimes, I mean forever and always.)
My sister is like this. Every six months I get another chain letter from her ("Re: New Virus Warning" or maybe "Re:Great Internet Snowball Fight 2005"). I do not like chain letters. They are spam; I filter them as such. Each time she sends me a chain letter, I send a very polite "don't do this again; chain letters go to my trashcan"-style response.
Maybe I ought to take a clue from RMS; tell her that I believe chain letters consumes network resources, that massive numbers can become counter productive-- in short all the standard anti-spam arguments. If I present myself calmly and rationally I expect (from experience) that she will stop. If I do a really good job, maybe she'll change her opinion. Take this example from letter 2: "Receiving Word attachments is bad for you because they can carry viruses" is calm, well spoken, and provides a reason that the sender may never want to see another Word file themselves. Spoken in this manner they might see your "opinion" against Word
Something tells me that's the reason my sister keeps sending me spam: I've never really told her why I want her to stop (just been a prick and threatened to trash her emails to me, if in a polite manner).
International? (Score:3, Informative)
(Assuming I have Word of course.)
-jfedor
A problem with free software advocacy (Score:5, Interesting)
Most computer users use Microsoft Word. That is unfortunate for them, because Word is proprietary software, denying its users the freedom to study, change, copy, and redistribute it.
Most users of Microsoft Word don't actually care about having the freedom to study or change it. Most don't even care about the right to copy or redistribute it except in making some limited copies for friends or to install on other computers. For most people Word works well and the issue of it being proprietary never effects them in any way they are likely to be aware of.
Until free software advocates can make it clear to the average use what the benefits of that freedom are, it will be very difficult to wipe out things like Word attachments. We have lots of people preaching to the geek choir and people convincing businesses of the value of open source (not free software, and it's an important distinction). But nobody is really convincing the average computer user of the value of free software (aside from possibly the "free as in beer" sense).
Simply responding to Word attachments with a political tirade isn't going to do anything except make the people who sent them to you think you're some commie wacko. The people who are likely to be receptive to such communiques are those who probably wouldn't send you the word attachment in the first place.
This actually worked... (Score:5, Informative)
Their explanation was a little simpler, which was basically, "Hi. Those of us with Unix machines don't have Word installed, so it's a major pain in the ass for us to read that document you just attached. Can you send it in a different format?" Personally, I wouldn't recommend using any of the examples in the article, as they all sound pretty self-righteous and would probably make an average recipient more likely to walk over and give the writer a massive wedgie than to change their email attachment behavior.
The drawback, of course, is that the people who were sending Word attachments in the first place were still composing them in MS Word. And so you've either got to deal with the huge mess that is Word's "Save as HTML" or you lose all the pretty formatting (which does sometimes include important diagrams or tables) when it's saved as text. But I suppose it's a moral victory, if nothing else...
Now how do I do this and stay in business? (Score:5, Insightful)
Clients, unconsciously, have a scale in their head that weighs how much they've put into me versus how much they've received back from me. Every little thing I ask them to give me or do for me reduces their perception of the benefit/cost ratio, and reduces the likelyhood they'll use my services again. Really, clients generally want me to come in and pull a completed job out of thin air with no assets from them, and much as they technically understand that they have to give me stuff to work with they don't actually like it.
So, I make a point to bend over backward for the client on the little stuff so that when I do have to ask the client for something, it's always something that's really important to the project. Convincing them to support free software does not constitute "important to the project".
I can just imagine telling a client I can't read their Word file. They'll think I'm incompetent for being improperly equipped and replace me.
Like it or not I'm stuck with Word unless a court breaks up the Microsoft monopolies and businesses start using more of a variety of software. I can give my clients PDFs, but that isn't going to change their file habits anytime soon.
Translate it into new business (Score:3, Interesting)
Even if you don't actually sell them the service, you've given them valuable advice and underscored the fact that this type of knowledge is why they pay you.
Bah, convert it to PDF (Score:5, Informative)
#!/usr/bin/perl
my $fn=shift;
my $or=$fn;
$fn=~s/.*\/(.*)\.doc$/$1/o;
$fn=~s/
$or =~ s/
`antiword -p letter $or | ps2pdf - > $HOME/tmp/$fn.pdf `;
exec("/usr/bin/acroread $HOME/tmp/$fn.pdf");
It does require antiword which you can obtain from freshmeat.
There is (yet another) decent way to handle this (Score:3, Funny)
If you really dont want to recieve or promulgate any word documents, set up your mailserver to filter out all .doc attachments and replace them with a small ascii note:
<<< Word.doc 900k -- file removed by VirusScanner 7.0 >>>
Then anyone who uses the server can honestly reply- "I want to get that document from you, but my virus scanner keeps deleting it, if you could send it as plain text or rtf... "
This directive will fit nicely next to the ones for *.exe, *.vbs, etc.
It just won't work in cubeland (Score:3, Interesting)
It's against college policy to possess a Linux computer (I'm not kidding), and to a lesser zeal of enforcement, against policy to have a computer with MS Office installed. I imagine there are hundreds of other large institutions out there with similar policies.
Unless I can convince the President of the college to talk to the VP of IT about appointing a committee to consider instituting a policy restricting the use of Word attachments, they're not going away, no matter how many nice e-mails I send out.
(It's also interesting that the worst case of cross-platform non-interoperability I've encountered is a Windows user who received an
this is amusing... (Score:4, Funny)
But I did run into this ad [msads.net] while checking my hotmail account, and I thought it was pretty funny in light of the current discussion
Right Idea, Wrong Reasons (Score:3, Interesting)
I swear, RMS could tell people not to stick their fingers in a light socket, and they would actually have a desire to do so when he was done.
Now, I dislike Word just as much as the next guy, but for different reasons. First, there is the macrovirus issue. I don't like closed formats either, but that's a technical issue that a lot of people don't understand. Refer to Word as a "secret format" and people will think you are smoking crack. For Joe Blow, Word is not a secret format, "it's Word format. What's the secret?".
Instead, if I get this stuff, I say:
I don't use Word. Could you please send plain text or HTML.
That's it. No diatribe. No technical jargon. If this becomes the socially acceptable way to transmit documents, people will learn it because they are inconvenienced having to send the message twice, not because they want to join the Glorius People's Revolution, which most us would actually like to avoid. I wouldn't subject myself to PDF or any print-oriented format unless they said it was the only alternative. That's for a little ideological reason of my own: These formats are a PITA to read on the screen, and printing them out is bad for the environment. I have nothing personal against Adobe. If Reader were more screen friendly I wouldn't hesitate to suggest PDF.
RMS is incorrect (Score:5, Informative)
This statement is incorrect... Microsoft redefined the file format with Word 97 to make it extensible. SO the basic text, formatting, images, etc are all compatible between Word 97, 2000, and XP. I can save a Word file in WordXP and open it in Word 97 without any sort of conversion or downgrading... its just that the "extensions" not supported by Word 97 won't be displayed or might be displayed incorrectly.
The differences between 97 and 2000 are especially small... we have about 85% of our users on Office 97 and they exchange documents both ways with our other users of Office 2000. Of course they don't do anything special with fileformats (remember: these users think their keyboard can 'get a virus') -- the Word 97 users can open the Word 2000 files without conversion.
In Defense of Microsoft...Yes, Microsoft. (Score:5, Redundant)
( I've been critical, very critical of RMS in the past. My motivation for writing this post isn't to put him through the meat-grinder..I'm merely addressing some points that weren't addressed in his article.)
" Don't you just hate receiving Word documents in email messages? Word attachments are annoying, but worse than that, they impede people from switching to free software. Maybe we can stop this practice with a simple collective effort. All we have to do is ask each person who sends us a Word file to reconsider that way of doing things."
If these people happen to be your friends, sure. But any sysadmin who's worked more than an hour in any professional capacity can tell you that people simply don't understand email. Yes, to you and I, we know about RFCs, the fact that the email infrastructure of the net was never meant to handle anything but raw ASCII.. They don't know these things, nor do they care to learn why sending binaries via email is a bad idea. They just want to send 80MB
IMHO, what needs to happen is a revamping of the email infrastructure to the net, to turn it into a binary-friendly medium. Its a kludge to do anything short of that. Providing HTML links to binaries stored at the originator's machine, MIME, UUEncode/UUDecode are are simply methods of sidestepping the issue and putting a band-aid on a garden hose. As a side note, the same "effort" you speak of could be directed at revising badly out of date protocols like FTP as well. FTP is a NAT-ignorant protocol.. Good luck trying to move data in anything but an Active mode.
" Most computer users use Microsoft Word. That is unfortunate for them, because Word is proprietary software, denying its users the freedom to study, change, copy, and redistribute it. And because Microsoft changes the Word file format with each release, its users are locked into a system that compels them to buy each upgrade whether they want a change or not. They may even find, several years from now, that the Word documents they are writing this year can no longer be read with the version of Word they use then."
Lame as it is, this is Microsoft's right. If they want to, they can make Word pop up an evil clown covered with blood that randomly insults you every 18 seconds if they feel like it. Its their product. If you don't like the design of their product, you are welcome to come up with something better, as the folks behind AbiWord, KWord, StarOffice and others have done. In my opinion, Microsoft has done an exemplary job in allowing users to import legacy documents. Infact, you'll still have the ability to import documents from MS Works, a cheapo text-based version of MS Office that ran on DOS systems more than a decade ago. I've personally never encountered the sort of situation you're describing. Besides, if they opened up the standard and described how Word documents are formed, any number of parties (ourselves included) would ultimately pervert the standard, intentionally or not. I'm glad they keep that door shut. Theres only one version of Microsoft Word 2002 documents--Not 18 different ones, all slightly different from one another.
"Someone I know was unable to apply for a job because resumes had to be Word files. Even governments sometimes impose Word format on the public, which is truly outrageous."
The government also requires us to ride on/in motor vehicles when we use the highways, regardless of the fact your bike will get you from Point A to Point B. Infact, if you tried to ride a bike on an expressway, you'de be pulled over within minutes, fined, and/or carted off to jail. Whether we like it or not, Word is the standard when it comes to the exchange of formatted electronic documents. That may change. It has in the past, and will likely continue to do so in the future. Even today, we're already moving away from statically formatted Word-like documents and into more sophisticated markup-based documents like HTML/XML. Don't whine about not being to ride your bike on the expressway. Its illegal because nobody wants the disruption and inconvenience... The same reasons rest behind why Word is the current standard format for electronic business documents. It prevents disruption and inconvenience for everyone to agree upon the best standard available at the time the decision is made.
"Example No. 1: You sent the attachment in Microsoft Word format, a secret proprietary format, so I cannot read it. If you send me the plain text, HTML, or PDF, then I could read it."
If you say this to anyone in a business environment, two things will happen. They'll think youre friggin crackpot, and they'll be less inclined to conduct any further business with you. Get serious..The way to get to your goal, Richard, is not to retroactively repeal the existing standard in favor of ye olden days of document exchange. Develop a BETTER standard than Word, make it available to all so that they'de be crazy not to implement it, and in so doing force Microsoft to conform to it. After all, they had to do so with HTML, did they not? And JPEG? And GIF? And DivX, and MPEG, and Java...the list goes on and on.. None of these formats were created by Microsoft, yet, Microsoft was forced into adopting support for them simply due to their popularity and pervasiveness. BMP didn't win out over JPEG. PCX didn't win out over GIF. Get the picture? The best way to get where you wanna go is to put one foot infront of the other and enjoy the slow march of progress and adaptation, not to turn around and do backwards somersaults of disruption till you get there.
This argument was terribly misguided. It identifies a problem that doesn't exist, and suggests and equally pointless and disruptive method of fixing it. I didn't buy a CueCat then, and I'm sure as hell not gonna buy a CueCat now.
Cheers,
Re:In Defense of Microsoft...Yes, Microsoft. (Score:3, Insightful)
Source for Brazil/Kenya comments? (Score:3, Interesting)
"Microsoft can (and did recently in Kenya and Brazil) have local police enforce laws that prohibit students from studying the code, prohibit entrepreneurs starting new companies, and prohibit professionals offering their services."
I've not seen this in the news.
Can anybody provide a link to specifics concerning what MS did in Kenya and Brazil to stop acedemic study of their
----
True Story (Score:4, Funny)
The attachment was a ZIP file;
The ZIP file contained a powerpoint presentation;
The presentation had a single slide;
The only thing on the slide was a BMP picture;
The picture consisted of a scanned image
Of...
a printed email message!
Real reasons the average user might care (Score:3, Interesting)
- I like to use a font called Book Antiqua that hasn't been installed by default with Office since version 95.
- Printer information, including print margins, paper size, tray number, all screw things up just enough to risk major visual changes (or annoying problems like the document printing from the letterhead tray) at the other end. It's quite easy for an increase in printable area (or a change in font, see above) to result in two free-floating boxes printing on top of each other on the first page, rather than one on the first page and one on the second.
- Word attachments can contain viruses. I'm always aware of this whenever I'm forced to send one, even though I keep my anti virus software up to date on a daily basis. I'm particularly careful when I receive one, typically only opening it in "Wordpad".
Meanwhile, my main email address runs through Spamcop which I have setup to strip any and all attachments (there's a warning in my emailI typically send out my CV as an Acrobat file. About 20% of the time I'm asked for a Word version. That's fine, I've got Word 97 installed and it's what I actually used to write the CV in the first place. I downgraded from 2000 recently and I'm much happier.
Tell them how much it's costing *them* (Score:3, Interesting)
What do clueless managers have against plain text?
My version (Score:3, Informative)
Many modifications are possible, of course. (P.S. The indentation is nicer in my file, but the lameness filter won't allow it. Sorry.)
Now, my message:
Re:RMS spouting off (as usual) (Score:3, Troll)
I attach word documents every day. My organization has standardizied on Word, and for good reason too. It works decently, and can read the notes and information vendors send me. The above generalization is so far removed from reality its silly.
Forcing the choice on others (Score:2)
No, nobody is arguing the fact they can't use Word, The issue is they are forcing a "choice" on the receiver, by sending the Doc format. If MS opened the Doc formats and perfect filters were available then Maybe you have a point.
Re:RMS spouting off (as usual) (Score:4, Insightful)
RMS is suggesting that supporters of free software, when they receive an attachment in Microsoft Word format, request the attachment be sent again in a non-proprietary format such as HTML or ASCII text. He provides three boilerplate replies, mostly polite and one includes instuctions.
No where in the article does he ask people to stop using Word, nor does his suggestion limit their choice of wordprocessors.
In his suggested reply text, their is only a passing mention of GNU/Linux in the first and no mentions of Linux/UNIX in the other two.
Please take your ignorant posts elsewhere.
You sound like one of those (Score:4, Insightful)
When you send them polite reply that they should send normal email in text format, attach only pre-written documents if there's no way to convert into another format that engineers can read. The next thing you know, you get a review of having a bad attitude and you don't want to cooperate. And you know where that comments come from, right?
It's a royal pain in the butt when you have one Windows machine shared between 20 engineers all working on Unix.
Re:Don't tell me to stop using MS Word... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Microsoft XML (Score:3, Funny)
<font style='0010101' size='man' kern='385420' content='00101110101000111000000010100101010100'/
</style>
I can't wait
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)