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Borking Outlook Express

timothy posted more than 11 years ago | from the swedish-is-funny-on-the-face-of-things dept.

It's funny.  Laugh. 1097

Johannes writes: "Swedish Gnuheter has a story on Nick Moffitt arranging with his X-headers in way that makes it impossible to read his email with Microsoft WebTV or Outlook Express. Moffitt states: 'The folks using Outlook Express have locked themselves into a limited subset of the information that can flow over the Internet, and are blaming me personally for not limiting my transmissions to that outlook-centric subset.' See also original email (in English). Immoral? Or just right?" Looks like Moffit's "Who, me?" attitude is tongue in cheek, but the creative header changes here are hilarious.

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Borking Jamie (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915300)

CmdrTaco does it every night!

MOD ALL MY POSTS OR YOU WILL BE FELLATED (-1, Offtopic)

hettberg (552289) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915344)

Linux sux0rs big time. [dopefish.com]

Free software programmers have to make a living by selling coffee mugs and t-shirts, cuz their products suck ass.

Today's lunch (-1)

Guns n' Roses Troll (207208) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915304)

Sweet and sour chicken sub.
Nestea raspberry iced tea

Total cost = $7.00

Re:Today's lunch (-1)

Frank White (515786) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915315)

Nestea is pure processed shit. Arizona, Lipton, and Snapple are where it's at.

Re:Today's lunch (-1)

Guns n' Roses Troll (207208) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915397)

Ever have that Sobe stuff? I tried some Saturday and it was pretty damn good. Guano Tea flavor or something like that.

2nd or 3d (-1, Offtopic)

SigmundK (551485) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915312)

2nd or 3d post woot

Re:2nd or 3d (-1, Offtopic)

SigmundK (551485) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915342)

p.s : all the mods kick ass!

This is what Linux is all about (-1)

core10k (196263) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915314)

The Linux cult cannot accept software from the Evil Ones.

I can't believe this made the /. front page. You guys really are jerks, you know that?

Re:This is what Linux is all about (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915429)

I like your sig.

Re:This is what Linux is all about (-1)

Guns n' Roses Troll (207208) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915502)

[PandaHuggles core10k]

[PandaCuddles all crapflooders]

Oh you guys... You're SO super!!!

Hmm seems to me... (2, Insightful)

Clay Mitchell (43630) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915317)

it seems to me somebody is just trying to be a jackass.

Re:Hmm seems to me... (1, Flamebait)

garcia (6573) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915379)

either way it is stupid. although his personal vendetta is far from the one that MS started.

The best way to convert people from Microsoft... (3, Insightful)

FortKnox (169099) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915319)

...is to disclude them as much as possible!

If he were serious (which he doesn't appear to be), then I'd say its waaay to risky for the linux community. Shutting out everyone is one of the first ways to fail in bringing Linux into the mainstream...

Re:The best way to convert people from Microsoft.. (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915371)

...is to disclude them as much as possible!

umm... the word is exclude

Re:The best way to convert people from Microsoft.. (5, Insightful)

lightray (215185) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915446)

This post is in reply to your "exclude microsoft users" post, and the attitude in the article exemplified by this quote: ``It's true that I run a mailing list that does not allow posting from Windows users. Many people complain about this, but in my mind I see it as no different than a restaurant or dance hall having a dress code.''

When did we become such elitists? When users are arbitrarily excluded and abused in the name of "free software," I begin to think that pehaps these same people now toting the supremacy of their operating system might in another time promote the supremacy of their language, nationality, or race.

I see nothing productive in this article or the attitude of its creator. The point of our movement is to produce good, useful software, and to make it available to everyone. The point is not to force them to use it, or to punish those who don't. Where's the freedom in that?

Re:The best way to convert people from Microsoft.. (3, Insightful)

AnalogBoy (51094) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915448)

It'd just make the "mainstream" IT community reject linux, and its users, even faster. [They] We've decided, more or less, on an engine for the car, the highway has been built, some people just like to play bumpercars.

Linux is a segway. It claims it will change the world; some people try it out; some people implement it mainstream; Most people just stare and say "uhh." the world just isn't built for it yet.

[To appease the BSD Zealots: Linux is a tricycle, *BSD is a Segway. If you are not a BSD Zealot, ignore this line.]

UNIX is a Freightliner. Good when you need a lot of power and a big footprint to haul a massive amount of.. stuff.

Windows 2000 is an Automatic Transmission Ford. Good enough for the average person, they don't have to worry about it too terribly much. Most mechanics know how to fix them.

Win2K server is a nice, large Dodge. Good for hauling midsize loads. Can still be fixed by most mechanics, if they are adequately skilled. Can be upgraded to Cummins Turbo Dulie model with extended bed if neccesary. Maximum of 32 Wheels.

The analogies are endless.

Re:The best way to convert people from Microsoft.. (-1)

Seor Obvious (549685) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915485)

Maybe you should change your name to "AnalogyBoy".

Re:The best way to convert people from Microsoft.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915508)

AnalOrgyBoy would be more appropriate.

Pretty early... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915322)

Closest I've ever been (number three, four?)...

OfficeDonkey Scripture (-1, Offtopic)

DonkeyHote (521235) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915332)

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Pwfssjejoh ijt joobuf tuvccpsooftt bhbjotu Hpe- if ibsofttfe ju up tfswf uif Gbuifs't Efbemz Qvsqptf. Kptfqi Vtfe uif Epolfz Kptfqi ije ijt tjmwfs dvq jo uif epolfz't qbdl. Xiz uifsf? Cfdbvtf ijt cspuifst xfsf tuvccpso. Uifz xfsf epolfzt. Uifjs gbuifs- Kbdpc- dbmmfe Jttbdibs b epolfz. Hfo. 5::25 Jttbdibs jt b tuspoh-cpofe epolfz mzjoh epxo cfuxffo uxp tiffqgpmet. Uifz ibe sftjtufe Kptfqi't Hpe-bopjoujoh. Uifz ibe up cf csplfo pg epolfzoftt cfgpsf Kptfqi dpvme cmftt uifn xjui uif gsvju pg ijt pxo tvssfoefs. Jo uif Fhzqu pg tmbwfsz- Kptfqi ibe cffo dsvtife boe csplfo pg ijt joifsfou sftjtubodf up Hpe. Jo tfdsfu if ibe xpslfe up csfbl ijt obuvsbm efgjbodf pg uif qmbo pg Hpe voujm if dpvme lopx xjui bmm ijt cbuufsfe ifbsu- "zpv nfbou ju gps fwjm- cvu Hpe nfbou ju gps hppe." Uibu jt uif eftusvdujpo pg tuvccpsooftt.

Re:OfficeDonkey Scripture (-1)

Guns n' Roses Troll (207208) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915413)

I like your user name. It has a nice woody sound to it. Not like antelope; that's too tinny. Tinny.

Clever... (0, Troll)

FatSean (18753) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915340)

But not that profound. Does it rate to be an article? Or is it a subtle trick to drive up page hits by trolling for anti-microsoft flames?

Slashdot == Obsessed With Microsoft (-1)

tealover (187148) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915341)

It's sad. So very sad.

Oh well. At least Rob has his anime.

Re:Slashdot == Obsessed With Microsoft (-1)

Seor Obvious (549685) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915373)

Your .sig is from Dilbert.

Does this seem contradictory to you? (2)

willybur (217434) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915350)

Many people have somehow drawn the premature conclusion that
the reason I do this is because of some sort of ideological zealotry.
What I do with my e-mails was certainly informed by my technical
experience with free software, but it is not done out of a desire to
change anyone.

Ok, so he says that he is NOT doing it to change what mailer people use (hence "chang[ing] anyone") But then...

There are two ways, actually, that one can meet the
crackmonkey mailing list dress code. One is to simply use Free
Software, and not use a mailer that requires you to accept a license
that makes you promise not to share with your friends. Another is to
continue to use your Windows-based mailer, but hack the headers of
your message so as not to betray your use of the software.

So forcing users to have to change mailers or hack the existing one does not constitute a "change" anymore?

Re:Does this seem contradictory to you? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915434)

Disagree. On one hand, he is saying his actions are not motivated by ideological zealotry. His point (in the part you don't reproduce) is that by his choice whether people are able to communicate with him depends on their either using a particularl variety of software or faking it. He is simply filtering what he receives. Nobody is forced to change. His actions merely parody the nature of MS and Outlook to garble and exclude.

Re:Does this seem contradictory to you? (5, Informative)

nickm (1468) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915460)

You are confusing two different issues. One is the auto-killfile that I perform on myself, not allowing anyone using outlook to read my mails. The second is the "dress code" for posting to a mailing list I run. They're two different efforts.

The first says "I don't care if windows users can't read my mail"

The second says "I don't want windows users posting to my mailing list"

There is a distinction.

Re:Does this seem contradictory to you? (1)

cyclist1200 (513080) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915463)

Not at all. He says changing people isn't the goal. If people think anything he says is important, they will change on their own, not because he wants them to. If they think his words are just drivel, then they won't.

Use his power for good, not evil (or less good:)) (4, Interesting)

MattRog (527508) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915354)

I read the english e-mail and he explains his position (I don't quite understand the hack though) -- rather than blocking totally Microsoft's client, why not make it display "This message would be readable if you used any other email client than Microsoft's. For a list of good clients, some of which are free, visit *url to Download.com or something*."

Same thing for anti-Microsoft mailing lists which disalow Outlook -- kindly inform anything other than Outlook is ok (due to security concerns, etc.) and provide a list of free or not-too-expensive email clients (or again a link to download.com and the like).

Sounds like a much better (and beneficial) use of time.

Re:Use his power for good, not evil (or less good: (2, Interesting)

morcego (260031) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915483)

Which is pretty easy to do. Just add to your headers:

X-Message-Flag: This message would be readable if you used any other email client than Microsoft's. For a list of good clients, some of which are free, visit *url to Download.com or something*.

Revelation (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915358)

guess what, billy, john katz loves HOT GAY POOPSEX

Stupid... (2, Informative)

JanneM (7445) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915359)

What was our reaction to MS disabling access to the MSN sites? And this is different exactly how?

This is immature and childish. I hope he comes to his senses and refrains from this kind of petty vendettas.

/Janne

Re:Stupid... (5, Insightful)

Lord Omlette (124579) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915406)

What was our reaction to MS disabling access to the MSN sites?
Blazing anger.
And this is different exactly how?
When a Linux person does it, it's 'funny' (+1).

This is immature and childish.
True that.
I hope he comes to his senses and refrains from this kind of petty vendettas.
When people start ignoring his email (message->block sender), maybe then he'll get the idea: being a jackass to other people might be funny for roughly two seconds, but no longer than that.

Re:Stupid... (5, Insightful)

Omnifarious (11933) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915414)

As he pointed out, Outlook users send people unreadable, non-standard attachments all the time. What's the difference? Why do non-Outlook users always have to be the ones to conform to what Outlook users do?

Re:Stupid... (1)

VoiceOfRaisin (554019) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915470)

whats the difference you ask?

intent.

MOD THE PARENT UP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915489)

Good point

his mailing list (3, Insightful)

Trepidity (597) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915471)

I believe what the original post was referring to is his statement that his mailing list blocks mails from Outlook users, regardless of how readable or standard their mails are, simply based on what client they use (by looking at what it reports in the headers). This is identical to MSN blocking Linux or Mozilla browser users based on HTTP headers. Both can be gotten around by reporting fake headers (in fact he suggests that this is what Outlook users could do if they really wanted to send to his list), but both are nonsensical and wrong.

Re:Stupid... (2)

dinivin (444905) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915501)

As he pointed out, Outlook users send people unreadable, non-standard attachments all the time.

Then how about just blocking e-mail messages with unreadable, non-standard attachments?

Why do non-Outlook users always have to be the ones to conform to what Outlook users do?

No one is saying they do, despite what you may think.

Dinivin

Re:Stupid... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915432)

Why should he? Its HIS mailing list. MSN takes heat because they claim to provide a service to all. He doesn't make any such claim, and in fact lets you know that you need to jump through some hoops :)

Re:Stupid... (2, Funny)

stefanlasiewski (63134) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915462)

I hope he comes to his senses and refrains from this kind of petty vendettas.

You are right, he is immature. With this ./ story, he is now famous (for at least 15 minutes, anyways).I bet you 1 beer that he will use this to boost his petty vendetta.

Yay. Immaturity and fame, what a great combination!

A difference? (3, Insightful)

Dave_bsr (520621) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915478)

MS's access restriction seemed to be Microsoft's testing just how far it could go with it's power - how many non-IE users will complain if we do this?

This guy's action seems to be his attempt to fight back, and educate. Do you use Outlook? if not, how many illegible attachments and other garbage have you gotten from people who _do_? I'd consider this to be revenge/payback to the Outlook-using world, and not foolish at all - people need to see what is wrong with Outlook and this helps point it out - anyone on this list will probably be technical enough to get why he's doing this anyway, and be understanding (it's a bug in Outlook, after all...)

RMS says not to do this kind of thing? (2, Informative)

greensquare (546383) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915364)

RMS is an advocate of asking people to send the document in a non MS format that can be read using open software.

I wonder what he thinks of this?

Re:RMS says not to do this kind of thing? (5, Insightful)

Crispy Critters (226798) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915481)

Probably RMS would immediately see the distinction between

1) Sending messages encoded in a proprietary format which is not documented publicly.

and

2) Formatting a message in a way that makes it unreadable to certain users because of bugs in their software.

I probably don't agree with what he is doing, but I can see that it is in some ways a good idea to punish people whose email programs do not follow the RFC's, because that may be the only way to get people to put pressure on the vendors to provide correct software.

Remember, part of MS strategy is to make life difficult for people who don't use MS software and want to interact with those who do. Selling clients that don't follow the RFC's is just a part of this. Maybe this will make a few users complain to microsoft that they can't read a properly formated email using their MS email clients and force MS to change its practices.

Stupid little twat (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915369)

Just as bad as those nimrods who make their sites IE-specific. Grow up, doofus!

Perfect Example of elitist mentality (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915372)

I don't like your e-mail client, therefore I will manipulate my mail in a manner that makes it impossible to read from that client? Now THAT's mature.

Slashdotted already (0, Offtopic)

Bob McCown (8411) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915374)

6 replies, and already:

Warning: Too many connections in /data/html/gnuheter/mainfile.php on line 17
Unable to select database

Re:Slashdotted already (1)

marcusi (552243) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915464)

Gnuheter is all in swedish so you won't miss anything - unless you're one of those lucky guys mastering the mother tongue of Torvald's ;-)

Re:Slashdotted already (1)

Trracer (210292) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915504)

I guess I am lucky then :)

Re:Slashdotted already (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915493)

Maybe it's forbidding links with slashdot as the referrer. After all, we're all WRONG to be using slashdot, and we must be PUNISHED!

Way to win over users (2, Insightful)

Red Avenger (197064) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915375)

I love the audacity of this guy playing god and everything and I could see lots of people here snickering but come on. This is ridiculous, do you honestly expect to win over people to open source software with people pulling this crap?

I have never written any software, webpages, etc... to exclude a subset of my potential users. To me this is incredibly arrogant and downright snobby.

Re:Way to win over users (2)

Sj0 (472011) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915469)

I don't know...At least he's doing *something*. Rather than sit on his ass and bitch about how bad MS is, he's doing something.

I won't help anyone with XP. I could, but since it's obvious that the pansy ass US government isn't going to do anything to subdue these criminals, it's really my duty to break off support.

Perhaps this guy had the same idea?

Besides, do you realize how much bandwidth Outlook viruses cost?

Re:Way to win over users (2)

Arandir (19206) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915474)

I have never written any software, webpages, etc... to exclude a subset of my potential users.

Nor have I. Although I have been sorely tempted to. That temptation usually arises immediately after trying to view a webpage in Mozilla or Konqueror, only to be informed that I am not using the webmaster's preferred browser (typically some version of IE released last week).

Re:Way to win over users (1)

xtremex (130532) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915488)

Well, I say it's his choice. If you don't like, don't join his mailing list. (I bet you are an outlook user)
I have no problem with this. If MS can do it (although I hate it), he can do it. He has plenty of users on his mailing list. He doesnt need naysayers

Fastest... (0, Redundant)

Khalad (137436) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915377)

Slashdotting... ever...

"begin" bug (1)

chrisspurgeon (514765) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915378)

Hmm, can't seem to duplicate that 'line beginning with "begin" bug'

Hypocrites (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915382)

You all criticized and condemned Microsoft when they changed MSN.com to be readable by only modern browsers, particularly IE.

But somebody does the same to Outlook Express users with e-mail headers, they are applauded.

Hypocrites.

Re:Hypocrites (2)

Mr_Matt (225037) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915506)

Who's applauding? It's funny, but yeah, it's childish, and the guy knows it, and says so. Nobody's applauding this guy, that I know of...we chuckle at his stance, and move on. Where's the hypocrisy?

I get the feeling you'd answer that, but you're too damn chicken to post under your own name, AC. So never mind, then. :)

Bug with UUdecoding? (1, Informative)

gfecyk (117430) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915383)

Instead, the bug is that any message that has the word "begin" at the beginning of a line will be treated as a garbled attachment from that point on.

You mean the 'begin 644' you see at the start of UUencoded messages? Still beaten with the 'view source' button in a message's properties.

Cute. An old holdover from the days before MIME. I thought they started blocking these after Happy99 caused trouble.

Re:Bug with UUdecoding? (2)

DunbarTheInept (764) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915507)

Read the letter. It explicitly states that the view source option is gone in the most recent version.

Outlook User Alan Thicke, Dead. (-1)

Alan_Thicke (553655) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915388)

Just heard the sad news on CBC radio. Comedy writer/actor Alan Thicke was found dead in his home this morning. Even if you never watched his work, you can appreciate his work in 80's television. Truly a Canadian icon.
He will be missed :(
Show me That Smile:

Show me that smile again.
Ooh show me that smile.
Don't waste another minute on your crying.
We're nowhere near the end.
We're nowhere near.
The best is ready to begin.

As long as we got each other
We got the world
Sitting right in our hands.
Baby rain or shine;
All the time.
We got each other
Sharing the laughter and love.

Just in Case....Full Text (2, Redundant)

Bios_Hakr (68586) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915389)

begin Kris Herzog quotation:
> I know I may have said some harsh things on the Tron list, but I'd
> actually like to put all that aside, and personally thank you, as
> you've given me an idea to write an article about the larger
> picture.
>
> Basically, I'm trying to patch together ideas into an article that
> addresses the issues that we all have recently suffered through.
>
> So I'll ask you the same questions that I have of others, and I'd
> appreciate your complete honesty and I will promise that I will NOT
> turn this into a personal attack on you. This was never my
> intention.

Thank you for taking the time to approach me and hear me out.
I'll try to explain my side of things as best I can, here.

> So here we go:
>
> "In the particular example I am using, someone who was exploiting a
> Microsoft Outlook bug by modifying his X-Headers to cause his
> messages to be read as attachments on a mailing list.

As a matter of fact, that's factually incorrect. While it's
true that my headers do have some doozies, they're mostly innocuous.
The worst one probably is the X-WebTV-STationery, which sets my text
to black-on-black for anyone reading with a WebTV. WebTVs are pretty
rare nowadays, but that's easily overridden I'm told. The +++ath bug
only affects your ISP's modems (which are NOT likely to have the
hangup flaw), and it's formatted wrong anyway. That one's more of a
troll.

No, the attachment bug is far more subtle than that. It
doesn't happen based on headers, which are rightfully the section of
an e-mail that mail readers are SUPPOSED to process. Instead, the bug
is that any message that has the word "begin" at the beginning of a
line will be treated as a garbled attachment from that point on.

It's a horrible bug in Outlook, though not one that appears
when an exchange server is used (I can explain why later if you like).
Microsoft has not even acknowledged it as a bug, and apparently recent
versions of Outlook Express have had features REMOVED that once let
the user read the mails anyway. It used to be that the user could
select some sort of "view source" option and view the message
unprocessed. I'm told that this no longer works.

My other two headers are mostly annoyances. I set a Reply-By
that flags my messages as red, and my X-Message-Flag pretends that the
reason they can't read my mail is because of some censorship software
somewhere blocking my message from their eyes.

Even if I were to remove all of the custom headers from my
messages, the simple fact is that my ordinary internet-standard
plain-text messages will still cause this problem. In fact, the
problem was discovered *accidentally*, when Bruce Sterling distributed
a document via e-mail that had the word "begin" appear at the start of
a line in the middle of one of his paragraphs.

> Another example is a mailing list that will reject any mail from
> Windows-based clients.

Yes. It's true that I run a mailing list that does not allow
posting from Windows users. Many people complain about this, but in
my mind I see it as no different than a restaurant or dance hall
having a dress code. It raises the bar for entry to the list, and
ensures that users really want to be there.

There are two ways, actually, that one can meet the
crackmonkey mailing list dress code. One is to simply use Free
Software, and not use a mailer that requires you to accept a license
that makes you promise not to share with your friends. Another is to
continue to use your Windows-based mailer, but hack the headers of
your message so as not to betray your use of the software.

Both methods demonstrate an effort made to post to the list,
as well as a certain degree of technical acumen. Our IRC channel on
slashnet.org has the same sort of dress code: You can use a
non-Windows IRC client, or you can fake your version information.

> This caused problems for many people using Microsoft products, and
> as such, I'm trying to gain perspectives from both the
> Microsoft/Non-Microsoft sides to help describe the situation of
> people who believe in open-source to the point of zealotry, and how
> this can be addressed in the modern 'free society' of the Internet
> and the spirit of "Open Source" in the fact that it supports a
> non-discriminatory feeling and policy. And how some people have
> taken the battle to new level with this kind of behavior."

First of all, I am not a member of the Open Source movement.
They seem only interested in how you can make money from free
software. I am actually (believe it or not) more concerned with the
ethical and moral issues involved in the subjugation of human beings
through restrictive copyright and patent law. I consider myself a
member of the Free Software movement.

Many people have somehow drawn the premature conclusion that
the reason I do this is because of some sort of ideological zealotry.
What I do with my e-mails was certainly informed by my technical
experience with free software, but it is not done out of a desire to
change anyone.

Many people have also mistakenly joined the open source/free
software cause with the anti-microsoft cause. This is foolhardy,
since there are many proprietary programs for GNU/Linux and BSD whose
licenses are just as antisocial as any Windows license. You'll note
that there are a lot of proprietary programs that don't suffer the
flaws of Outlook Express, and they can read my messages just fine.
Don't you think that if I were doing this out of some sort of free
software zealotry, I'd break ALL proprietary mailers?

Also, there is the mistaken impression that I am somehow
discriminating against a whole class of people by writing e-mail that
Outlook refuses to read. I see this as a curious by-product of
American culture, whereby your consumer tastes somehow create a
ready-made cultural identity for you. There are a great many FREELY
AVAILABLE mailers (for Windows, even) that are capable of reading
plain-text messages. You yourself are using Eudora, which is just
such a program!

> "Would you view behavior like this as a detriment to the open source
> movement as a whole?"
[...]
> Honestly, I'd like to hear your side to this, the reasons why you
> feel the way you do, and why you chose to follow the path you have.

I've been using Unix-based mailers for well over a decade.
I've been mailed countless illegible attachments from Windows users
over the past ten years. It's immature of me, I know, but to some
degree turnabout is fair play.

I don't do it to win people over (and yes, it definitely
generates a lot of ill-will for free software among those who
mistakenly associate it with the cause), although I have seen many
people for whom this was the straw that broke the dromedary's back.
If people think my messages are worth reading, then they will (like
the dedicated posters to the crackmonkey mailing list) adjust their
computing environment to accomodate.

The folks using Outlook Express have locked themselves into a
limited subset of the information that can flow over the Internet, and
are blaming me personally for not limiting my transmissions to that
outlook-centric subset. If I were to post all of my messages in
Russian, even fewer people on the Tron list would be able to
understand them; but would there then be an uproar demanding my
removal from the list?

--
INFORMATION GLADLY GIVEN BUT SAFETY REQUIRES AVOIDING UNNECESSARY CONVERSATION

01234567 <- The amazing* indent-o-meter!
^ (*: Indent-o-meter may not actually amaze.)

Re:Just in Case....Full Text (1)

GLX (514482) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915447)

Yes. It's true that I run a mailing list that does not allow
posting from Windows users. Many people complain about this, but in
my mind I see it as no different than a restaurant or dance hall
having a dress code. It raises the bar for entry to the list, and
ensures that users really want to be there.


Unfortunately some of us aren't graced by employers that let us use *nix variants for everything at work. Sometimes it's Exchange and IE and that's it... Sure, I may run Linux at home on most of my machines, but I certainly do send email from work! Blocking me because I'm sending email from a Microsoft client is immature and ill-conceived.

Re:Just in Case....Full Text (3, Insightful)

mcjulio (68237) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915515)

Even from 9x you're graced with telnet and cut and paste.

telnet mail.domain.com 25
HELO me.domain.com
MAIL FROM: user@domain.com
RCPT TO: recipient@otherdomain.com
DATA
Date:
Subject:
From:

Hi! This is my message body.

.

There's that modicum of techical acumen he was talking about. Not that this guy isn't an arrogant cock.

idea (0)

SigmundK (551485) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915391)

if people were given an identical OSS browser for windows w/o all the bugs, people would use it. i hope....

WTF makes Mr. Moffitt so important (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915392)

that I wouldn't see this as a GOOD thing if I used Outlook?

Mirror ? (1)

linklater (150763) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915393)

Anyone mirrored this ? Seems the connection is overloaded already 8/

Borked? (5, Funny)

Soko (17987) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915395)

From the site now:

Warning: Too many connections in /data/html/gnuheter/mainfile.php on line 17
Unable to select database

Shouldn't that be

"Werniga: Esha tue amany conecctionsa in der /data/hacht-ema-el/gnuheter/mainafiler.peea-haich- a-pee on der lingna sevetoon. Der databesa ist "BORK BORK BORK".

Re:Borked? (5, Interesting)

SuiteSisterMary (123932) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915445)

Cut and paste, then.

Får man lägga till nya headers i sina e-post-meddelanden som gör att de meddelanden som man skickar inte kan läsas av de som använder Outlook Express eller läser brev med WebTV?
Frågan har väckts i samband med att Nick Moffitt har skickat just sådana meddelanden på Tron-listan. Microsoft-användarna är inte nöjda med Moffitts beteende medan Moffitt hänvisar till att mottagarnas e-post-program är problemet och inte hans X-headers.

De headers som är omdebatterade:

X-Fnord: +++ath

X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black

X-Message-Flag: Message text blocked: ADULT LANGUAGE/SITUATIONS

X-BeenThere: crackmonkey@crackmonkey.org

Läs Nick Moffitts brev på Crackmonkey-listan.

Debattera sedan gärna vidare på Gnuheter.

Re:Borked? (1)

Cramer (69040) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915451)

Wow, that's so funny it had me in tears.

Another trick (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915396)

Is to just send the mail as HTML; as for locking out other users.

And we all know how friendly we react to those mails?

Immoral? Or just right? (1)

evil_roy (241455) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915398)

Next time you have to work flat out because of a dos attack ask yourself the same question. Undoubtedly someone is having fun at your expense.

Screwing headers like this is not immoral , it isn't right , it's just stupid.

I suppose spam is also acceptable under the same premise ...."because I could ". This sort of thing is damaging and should be discouraged - it is certainly not newsworthy.

While mildly entertaining... (5, Insightful)

bsletten (20271) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915400)

I have the same problem with this as any pro-my-agenda-over-yours approach. If what we are seeking is equality/respect, resorting to the same tactics are unlikely to legitimately modify behavior. It's not through lynchings and beatings that the civil rights movement succeeded. It's not through imperial conquest that India became an independent state.
And it isn't going to be through holier-than-thou rhetoric couched in do-unto-others-as-they-do-unto-you that the open source/free software movements are going to make converts.

Re:While mildly entertaining... (2, Insightful)

davmct (195217) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915477)

I just think this entire idea is amusing. He's only censoring himself from the rest of the world so we don't have to listen to his POV. He can happily send email out to me, and I'll never know, nor care.
Now, if we could only get the spammers and L3373 script kiddies to adopt this strategy!

Tron (1)

Score0, Overrated (550447) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915403)

following some links about Mick Moffit and tron I found this [badvogato.org]

On slashnet, we have a little channel called #tron. Why is this evil, you ask? Well, we auto-kick all mIRC users.

So, despite their protestations, it sounds like none of them want to play nicely.

Silly and Immature (3, Insightful)

Gedvondur (40666) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915404)

I sure hope that this is a joke on that fellows part.

You want to know why those who are not technologicly gifted are afraid of Linux? Things like this. Silly, immature, and asinine elitism.

To punish people because of the mail client they use is pointless. Does the various versions of Outlook have problems? You bet. You don't like it. Fine. DON'T RUN IT.

Things like this destroy the credibility of the Linux community in general. You want businesses and government to think that the Linux community is serious, focused, and can provide better products. Stupid stunts like this do not give a good impression.

Re:Silly and Immature (2)

sconeu (64226) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915428)

Also, consider those who's access may be through work... (Disclaimer -- I don't know what the crackmonkey list is for). At the office, I *MUST* use LookOut! At home, I use Netscape. But sometimes we don't have a choice.

Let me get this straight... (5, Insightful)

medcalf (68293) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915408)

So he wants people to be able to use any kind of software to read email, and is annoyed that he gets documents from Windows users which are unreadable in his email program. So his response is to make sure that other people cannot necessarily read his email messages, and he expects others to adjust their computing environment to read what he sends. How is this any different from his adjusting his own computing environment to read what they send? Or is it that he just believes that the Internet should be mutually unintelligible (I mean, more than it already is)?

How is this different? (1)

piotrr (101798) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915430)

It's not different. Payback's a bitch, now laugh.

Re:Let me get this straight... (2)

Rupert (28001) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915495)

This guy wants the internet to be mutually intelligible. A self-selecting group of users (Outlook users) are producing email that he cannot read. Rather than be faced with unintelligible email on the mailing lists he runs, he does not allow people with illiterate mail readers to post to them.

It's totally non-productive, of course. However, if we all did this, Outlook users could have their internet all to themselves, and could leave the real internet to the rest of us.

bork? (2)

kaisyain (15013) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915410)

(I'm confused about how bork is the appropriate word in this context.)

This seems pretty juvenile to me. He is forging headers. First he forges a bunch of X-headers which were specifically created as a place for mailers to put proprietary information. Then he forges the Reply-By header, which is part of RFC 1327. (Shame on Microsoft for trying to bring overdue items to the attention of the user!)

His only valid complaint is that apparently Outlook has a bug regarding lines that begin with "begin". Wow, a mail client has a bug.

I'm reminded of mutt's tagline: All mail clients suck.

He's so 3l33t (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915416)

This reminds me of all the people who think they are so elite because they use linux and want to exclude anyone who think otherwise.

Not effective (4, Informative)

Florian Weimer (88405) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915417)

On German Usenet (the de,* hierarchy), this is already common practice. In particular, these pseudo-attachments are used to fool OE users to believe that articles carry some kind of mail worm, without really using attachments (so that the posters keep to the letter of netiquette).

However, it doesn't seem to help much, quite a few people are still using Outlook Express. Other newsreaders such as Gnus display some of these pseudo-attachments as real ones, too. (And I don't think this is a bug, it's just built-in uudecode support.)

And Outlook Express has much more critical bugs, for example in quoted-printable handling together with quoting.

View message source still works (2, Informative)

Craig Davison (37723) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915420)

The author claims that viewing the raw source of a message no longer works in OE. I have the latest version (OE 6) and all I have to do is right-click Properties for the message, and click on 'Message Source...' under the Details tab.

Oh, and BTW, I was unable to reproduce the 'begin' bug.

ok (2)

Em Emalb (452530) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915423)

If you don't want people to be able to read your email, fine. But he is limiting a lot of corporations that have Outlook setup as mandatory email type. Big deal, one knucklehead I probably wouldn't want to get email from anyway. Sure it's kinda funny, in your face, MS attitude, but in the long run, he is only hurting himself.

If you like this... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915427)

you should make Klerck your friend. [slashdot.org] Unreadable posts galore!

who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915431)

Assuming anyone really wants to read his messages anyway.

Well since he FBI and NSA use it :) (3, Funny)

CDWert (450988) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915439)

Since we all know the FBI and NSA can decrypt pretty much at will, and they all use Outlook to read our messages, perhaps this is the best way to secure it . Well just muck the header up, theyll be too busy trying to decrypt someting that isnt encrypted to figure it out .

I am of course being my usual smart ass self.

I think someone should be free to send whatever the hell they want HOWEVER they want to their colluges, a bunch of people griping this is bad, bad for linux, what does RMS say, WHO CARES !!!!

This, if it were acually serious, it isnt. WOULD be a matter between the sender and the recipient.
Youre not going to be in or do business long if noone with outlook can read your mail.

It's people like him (0, Flamebait)

banuaba (308937) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915442)

That make people like me stick with windows.

As far as I can tell, he is sending emails that take advantage of an admittedly stupid bug in Outlook (beginning an email with the word 'Begin:' makes it treat the email as an attatchment) and *features* in webTV and outlook's X-header interpretation. The making messages colored and black-on-black font stuff doesn't effect emails sent to your precious mutt. All it seems to be is some puffed up linux using jackass who wants to be an asshole and prove how superior he is.

In my mind, he's a step or two above website defacers. "THIS EMALE HAS BEEN HAX()RD BY NICK MOFFETT FUK U MICR0$LOTHSHAFT"
yeah, way to win some hearts and minds, buddy. Judging someone by the IRC client they use is likewise idiotic. OMG DOOD U USE TEH MIRC LOLZ NICK MOFIT SEZ THAT YOU HAVE TO FAKE UR CTCP VERSION OR WE KB U OK FAGET?

Grow up, Nick. You're just hurting those reasonable people who are trying to make Linux work for the rest of us.

He contradicts himself (2)

Trepidity (597) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915449)

Yes. It's true that I run a mailing list that does not allow posting from Windows users...There are two ways, actually, that one can meet the crackmonkey mailing list dress code. One is to simply use Free Software, and not use a mailer that requires you to accept a license that makes you promise not to share with your friends.
So why is it then that his list blocks mail from Windows-based Free Software mail clients?

Re:He contradicts himself (2)

nickm (1468) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915499)

Which mailer, in particular?

Re:He contradicts himself (3, Interesting)

Trepidity (597) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915514)

Mozilla's mail client, for one.

Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915452)

Some of us at work have to use outlook.

Oh, well I didn't want to read his emails anyway.

Sorry. (2)

Restil (31903) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915465)

If outlook is broken such that it thinks that any line that begins with the word "begin" implies the presense of an attachment, that is not the fault of the person sending the message.

However, to deny access to an irc channel because of the client used IS rather immature. If the client conforms properly to the protocol, there should be no reason to bar it solely based on its origin OS. No more so than denying IE or Netscape based only on the User-Agent setting. If I code properly formed html code that breaks the browser though, thats not my problem.

And its the fault of website designers who create buggy code, be it by hand or by use of a faulty
webpage designer program (frontpage and the like).

-Restil

C'est La Vie (2)

routerwhore (552333) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915475)

Everyone seems to be so quick as to deride his methods as immature. I missed the part where he asked your opinion though? It's a guy, and his list, and if you don't like it, you can start your own list I suppose.

Re:C'est La Vie (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915509)

Everynoe seems to be so quick to deride their [Al-queda's] terrorism is horrific. I missed the part where they asked your opinion though. It's an organisation, and their beliefs, and if you don't like it, you can start your own holy war I suppose.

Just because he didn't ask our opinion doesn't mean his actions don't affect us, or reflect on us.

Using a de facto incoming filter (4, Interesting)

HiredMan (5546) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915482)

Yes. It's true that I run a mailing list that does not allow posting from Windows users. Many people complain about this, but in my mind I see it as no different than a restaurant or dance hall having a dress code.

Whatever you think of his politics I love the idea of a snooty doorman looking at the M$ users and making them continue to stand in line outside the club. ;)

It raises the bar for entry to the list, and ensures that users really want to be there. There are two ways, actually, that one can meet the crackmonkey mailing list dress code. One is to simply use Free Software[] Another is to continue to use your Windows-based mailer, but hack the headers of your message so as not to betray your use of the software.[] Both methods demonstrate an effort made to post to the list, as well as a certain degree of technical acumen.

I hate to say it but this probably works wonders. I remember when alt.hackers instituted a policy in which it was listed as a "moderated" newsgroup but there was no moderator. So any submitted stories were simply mailed into the ether.
You had to edit your header so that you 'approved' your own post. Yes, it was trivial but a quick comparison between that group and 'alt.2600' proved that even that low a bar worked wonders for the level of content.

=tkk

I've got a new idea for a mail filter (2)

Trepidity (597) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915492)

If 'From' or 'Reply-To' contains 'nick@zork.net'
: reject

Only on Slashdot (2, Insightful)

Geeyzus (99967) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915498)

Only on Slashdot would so many people applaud this story.

If Microsoft employees sent out emails with headers that made them unviewable in Eudora or other email programs, people on here would be throwing a fit.

I use Eudora and hate Outlook (have to use Windows here...), and I have bundles of idiot coworkers that happily click on virus emails here and at home... but the hypocrisy here is ridiculous. Were the situation reversed we would be crying for another lawsuit against M$.... how is this different?

Mark

Only one thing to say. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#2915503)

><
XBOX

Posting Gnumeric attachments...? (5, Interesting)

KjetilK (186133) | more than 11 years ago | (#2915512)

Hm, I'm on this list that is often used to post results from races, and people keep on posting Excel files to that list, in spite of frequent complaints from more than one UNIX user. And in spite of my frequent warnings of how easy it is to trojan a computer when you open Excel attachments. There are a few people on this list who control a lot of money, I find it hard to understand that they dare do it.

Anyway, the time will come when I'm the one to post results. I'll use Gnumeric, I think. I have been toying with the idea of actually posting a Gnumeric XML file to the list... Revenge!!! ;-)

Well, I'm not going to do it just for the revenge. It has to be illustrating some point.

This got me thinking: Since Gnumeric's native file format is based on XML, it should be possible to have it sensibly parsed and displayed in a browser that does support XML, including IE, given....?

OK, so this is the question: What would it take for people to get a readable table on their browser, straight from a Gnumeric XML file?

If this would work, it would illustrate a major point: How much more flexible these products are. Those who have experienced all M$ lock-ins and unreadable documents can suddenly access a document in a format they've never heard of.

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