EBay Letting Fraud Slide? 421
joebagodonuts writes "MSNBC has an article charging that EBay's tough talk on fraud is just that. Talk." To a certain extent, I can understand the problem of having hundreds of thousands of auctions, and not being able to adequately police them - but ignoring fraud, when you have a policy stating otherwise is a Bad Thing.
I'll vouch for that (Score:5, Informative)
Neither my CC company, nor PayPal (now owned by eBay) or eBay were overly interested in dealing with this. Yeah, they suspended his account, but because he didn't pay eBay, not because he ripped me (and hundreds of others as well) off.
I'm still in contact with the jerk, and I will have justice done, either by the proper authorities or.....
Re:I'll vouch for that (Score:4, Interesting)
My idea of a way to fix the system is that we should have the money and item go through ebay. Sure this will add overhead and costs, but it protects both the buyers and the sellers. If either person backs out of the deal, the other person gets there money back.
There is another kind of fraud on ebay too, false advertising, where someone says they are selling x and give you y. This is a little harder to control even if the stuff goes throught ebay, as quality is subjective with much of the stuff being sold.
Medevo
Re:I'll vouch for that (Score:3, Insightful)
What ebay needs to do is set up some kind of interface with UPS, FedEx, and the USPS' tracking systems and then require that all auctions have a tracking number associated with them. Of course then you have snafus with "virtual" items such as Everquest accounts...
Re:I'll vouch for that (Score:4, Insightful)
Virtual items wouldn't really be a problem. All you need is a flag that says "this item will be shipped via $COURIER, and eBay will interface with the tracking system once shipment has been interfaced".
Buyers will immediately know which items either (a) are not being shipped [actually, they would know that anyway], and (b) which sellers don't want to use this system. If buyers want reliable tracking of their eBay shipments, they will opt out if (b) is the case.
Of course, some people will not realize what is going on, no matter how many informational messages they receive via the eBay interface, but that's life.
Re:I'll vouch for that (Score:3, Funny)
Actually, even tangible items can turn "virtual" quite easily under this system. So you have a tracking number... and 3 days later, you also get a nice FedEx package full of rocks...
Re:I'll vouch for that (Score:2)
Re:I'll vouch for that (Score:2)
That's basically what a transaction with escrow do...
Re:I'll vouch for that (Score:5, Interesting)
An intermediate solution would be Ebay sellers being required to submit a credit card and a charge authorization equal to their auction's estimated price. Buyers who claimed fraud would get the money the seller put up to Ebay up front. This would be the equivilent of a surity bond.
Another option would be for Ebay to certify escrow houses and modify their terms of service so that any buyer, may, at their discretion, demand the payment and goods be delivered via certified escrow service. Seller pays all shipping to the escrow service, buyer pays all other costs.
Re:I'll vouch for that (Score:4, Funny)
Maybe that's a little overkill.
Maybe that is the sniper link in Maryland (Score:3, Funny)
Re:I'll vouch for that (Score:5, Funny)
Yes there IS! (Score:2, Funny)
Just my 2
Re:I'll vouch for that (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I'll vouch for that (Score:4, Insightful)
I think what we are seeing is "small town" syndrome, that is, out of towners being taken in by obvious scams that any "big city" person would smell a mile away. I can pull up eBay right now and find a dozen suspicious auctions.
If it's too good to be true, then, yes, it is too good to be true. If it's a hardship case, then it will be your hardship. If you think you are smarter than the seller and ripping him off, then you are the one who will get ripped off.
In no way do I blame eBay for fraud. As a buyer I know that if I do not like the results of my purchase, then I leave negative feedback and move on.
If an auction is for a high cost item, then always insist on escrow. If the seller refuses, then refuse to do business. It's your responsibility as a buyer to protect your own ass.
jfs
Re:I'll vouch for that (Score:3, Funny)
Re:I'll vouch for that (Score:3, Insightful)
Based on this comment, I would consider myself a 'small-town person' . I opened an ebay account last month because I saw an out of print automobile service manual that I needed. The seller had hundreds of good feedback (~7 bad feedback) and the price was right ... perhaps better than right.
But a couple of things tipped me off. Firstly the seller was selling HUNDREDS of these things for different models that were hard to find.
Secondly, I contacted the bad feedback people and they said that the manuals were bootleg scans from original manuals and put on PDF and stamped to CD.
But if I was just slightly less careful, I would have been conned out of ~$35. Only 7 bad feedback in perhaps 400 ratings is not very much.
I think that if there's even the slightest pattern in any bad feedback, then you should back out. There is precious little you REALLY know about the seller and you have to look at every little scrap of info you can get.
Re:I'll vouch for that (Score:5, Informative)
The point of all this? Online auctions are ok, but be careful. Always pay with a credit card (not a check card) that way, in the case of fraud, you have one more layer of protection between the criminal and your money. And of course, always make up your mind what something is worth to you before you start bidding. Unless its unique or so rare that it may never be seen again, it will be in an auction again eventually. I've had several items that I really wanted to buy, but they were above the price I was willing to pay for them, so I didn't. Later I was able to pick it up for less than my max, when a similar item went up for auction.
No recourse for fraud (Score:3, Interesting)
Us ("we") customers want financial recourse (i.e. our money back), and they can only do that if they control the cash flow.
Right now they don't, so they can't.
Re:No recourse for fraud (Score:5, Informative)
Re:No recourse for fraud (Score:5, Insightful)
sPh
Re:No recourse for fraud (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't forget that eBay is also the company which decided that Microsoft could have its ratings changed to neutral or positive when it kept ending all those auctions for legit Windows copies because people were upset they were ending them early.
Hey, if you have money, or make eBay lots of money, they'll bend the rules for you. And that's what is wrong about this.
Been there... (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe they'll actually get a nice swift kick. Or maybe they'll just turn the other way again. And aren't they in kahoots with paypal. Yeah, that should explain *everything*.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Been there... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Been there... (Score:5, Informative)
1. Release full information of the seller including address, phone and full name of person on the credit card (with billing address) who opened the account.
2. Put a hold on the credit card and turn information over to a collection agency who can perform a skip-trace.
3. Notify local and federal authorities of the possibilty of a case of Felony Fraud. Also provide information to bidders on who to contact specifically to follow up on the case.
None of these will get the money back right away (or maybe at all), but it will put the crook is some serious hot water.
Should eBay eat that and give you money they never had?
Umm, yes? Don't they (claim) to have an insurance policy that covers things like this? Sure, there is a $250 limit, but it is something. You also need to submit the claim in writing within 90 days.
Re:Been there... (Score:3, Insightful)
Involving the state attorney general is an excellent idea, although I suppose that would fall into the "contact local and federal authorities" bin. I used this route several years ago to get my money back from a guy in Texas that took me for $600. I ended up getting ALL of the money back, and he ended up getting really uncomfortable scrutiny.
Now, if you pay via PayPal, that can be another issue althogether. If a seller states that he/she *only* accepts PayPal, and nothing else, there's no guarantee that the shipping address is correct. I think I would avoid such sellers.
Re:Been there... (Score:5, Funny)
How did your friend feel when she found out that there were escrow services she could have used for big ticket auctions and that you didn't recommend them to her?
Re:Been there... (Score:5, Insightful)
I purchased some Nakamichi cassette decks. Both were over $100 IIRC (the BX-300 especially). They went smoothly and I got the decks just fine.
What happened after I received them is another story...
Re:Been there... (Score:5, Insightful)
More importantly, did you contact the 200 other people and ask them to send copies of their letters of complaint to one postmaster and one US district attorney? 200 * 500 = 100,000, which is way way into grand theft and RICO territory IMHO (non-lawyer's opinion).
No? You didn't? Why not?
sPh
Re:Been there... (Score:3, Insightful)
They do what they can, but they are not the fraud police.
Re: thank you! (Score:3, Insightful)
The fact is, eBay shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of the users, any more than the local grocery store should be held liable if people post fraudulent sales on their cork boards near the entrances.
If eBay isn't even bothering to cancel/disable accounts after multiple frauds are reported, well - that's irresponsible on their part. But honestly, I don't think that's the crux of the issue. I *often* see accounts that are suspended, when I look back through user info on bidders of my old auctions who had negative feedback.
More than anything, this is a case of "kill the messenger" - because people get angry when they're ripped off, and look for someone to point the finger at. It's easier to pick on eBay (who has lots of $'s) than it is to hunt down and prosecute the person who actually scammed you.
Ebay has no power to Police (Score:5, Interesting)
Remember when dealing with people; they lie, cheat and steal to get what they want, so anything that requires you to trust an unknown party is at your discretion. Work retail once and you will understand the lengths to which people go to steal that 2 dollar pack of baseball cards and the power you don't have to stop them.
eBay DOES have the power to Prosecute (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Ebay has no power to Police (Score:2, Insightful)
What they really need to do is change their TOS to state that a seller is just as contractually and legally obligated to sell an item as a bidder is to buy it. And then back it up with some action. Then they need to establish partnerships with the various Atttornies General offices in the US (and their counterparts in other countries) instead of this adversarial, screaming-and-dragging-their-feet-thing they have going on right now.
There have been two major legal cases involving fraud on ebay: the art scam a few years ago, and the recently prosecuted computer scam. It shouldn't take a third case to make eBay change their ways, but it probably will.
Small correction... (Score:5, Informative)
No, they're a service company and they make it quite clear that the sales are not under their control. They simply put interested buyers in communication with corresponding sellers. Unfortunately, because eBay makes money from the sellers there is no real incentive for them to protect buyers. However, the vast majority of scams are pulled on greedy people who are trying to get something for nothing. As long as those people exist (and they're willing to accept the business model) eBay will have no incentive to change.
Their rating system isn't perfect, but it's decent. I've sold some stuff on Ebay and bought a couple things. I got screwed once by a seller, but I've been screwed by brick-and-mortar places, too. Such is life.
Re:Ebay has no power to Police (Score:2)
sPh
Fraud? (Score:5, Interesting)
I think they'll be pushing paypal and fight fraud through paypal's current policies, of course they will guarrantee if your transaction is ONLY through paypal.
It only makes sense to do it this way since Paypal has really got a good rep with folks.
I have personally vouch for the fraud dept at paypal, I was a charged $200 fraudulently, and paypal reimbused me for the charge on the debit card 5 days later.
Ebay on the other hand has a terrible reputation for following up on fraud.
I just hope they don't make Paypal have a rep as crappy as eBays by changing the policy at paypal.
Mabidex
Re:Fraud? (Score:2)
Re:Fraud? (Score:2, Flamebait)
Oh, that's a great measure of how much something sucks. Let's see...hmm, "Linux sucks" has over 208,000 hits. Geez, it must really suck major to get that many hits.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Fraud? (Score:4, Funny)
Oh, that's a great measure of how much something sucks. Let's see...hmm, "Linux sucks" has over 208,000 hits. Geez, it must really suck major to get that many hits.
Instant Research:
Windows Sucks: 225000 hits
Linux Sucks: 178000 hits
Conclusion: Linux sucks only 79% as much as Windows.
Further Research:
Windows sucks: 225000
Windows suxs: 534
Windows sux: 24300
Linux Sucks: 178000
Linux suxs: 287
Linux sux: 20800
BSD Sucks: 24900
BSD suxs: 59
BSD sux: 4680
Conclusions: BSD sucks 11% as much as Windows, and 14% as much as Linux. BSD suxs 11% as much as Windows, and 20% as much as Linux. BSD sucks the least. BSD sux 19% as much as Windows, and 23% as much as Linux.
BSD's market comparisions should be based on how much is sucks. Microsoft, however, should focus more on how much it sux, since it sux only 17% more than Linux, while it sucks 26% more.
Re:Fraud? (Score:5, Interesting)
Then, after one or two comments asking for help with the matter, they disabled my ability to use their 'so you have a problem' web form.
They don't have a phone number on their site either, so you can't call.
I advise you strongly, do not use paypal if you don't feel like having your money stolen. Use c2it [c2it.com] instead. The most common transactions have no fees associated with them at all, and it's run by citibank, as a real bank.
The fact that you had one good experience doesn't mean that the countless people who've had their money stolen by paypal aren't worth consideration.
Re:Fraud? (Score:3, Informative)
I did a $16.49 payment through them, crossing my fingers and hoping that caveat didn't apply to my credit card... Next thing I know it's listed on my credit card statement as a $16.49 cash advance at the corresponding higher interest rate, with a $15 cash advance fee piled on top of it. When I called to complain, my soon-to-be-ex-credit-card-company (Direct Merchants Bank) told me that since Citibank is a financial institution, this is considered a cash advance, and no, they wouldn't waive the fee.
If you're going to use c2it, check with your credit card's customer service first.
Re:Fraud? (Score:3, Informative)
Sure they do. But they deliberately make it hard to find. But other people have found them and posted [paypalwarning.com] them for all to see.
Surprised? (Score:5, Insightful)
I would have thought that reporting fraudulent users and such would be more the responsibility of the end users anyways, since its not much different than having people make purchases from someone at a flea market or something like that. You dont hold the owner of the building responsible if the "antique" you bought turned out to be a cheap knockoff.
Or do you? I'm not entirely sure of all american small courts laws.
Re:Surprised? (Score:2)
No sympathy. It's called "the cost of doing business."
Caveat Emptor (Score:5, Insightful)
I have a bunch of stuff I'd like to sell, like a guitar and a mountain bike and a computer, but I'm not going to bother putting it on ebay because my rating is a big fat zero, and I doubt anyone will want to buy from an unknown quantity such as myself.
Ebay has a profit motive to have as many auctions as possible. They also make more money when the price gets higher. They don't make money when they have to investigate fraud claims, and kick power sellers off the system.
Let's put it another way: Let's say you're a power seller, and you sell a $1000 item. You give ebay their cut ($150 I think) and pocket $850. Ebay is happy, you're happy, the only one unhappy is the "little guy."
Where is ebay's motivation to change the system? Libertarians and free market economic darwinists, start flaming now.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Caveat Emptor (Score:5, Informative)
An escrow agent would have done absolutely nothing to stop the four cases of fraud cited in the article. Three of the cases were "phantom" bidding, where the seller used an alter-ego to drive the prices up (one even admitted to it, saying how ashamed he was, and how he only did it to avoid taking a huge loss on the item). In those cases, the buyers knowingly offered a certain price for some goods, and got the goods they expected. The problem was that they spent $200 - $500 more than they had to because the phantom bids drove the price up. These transactions would have occurred with or without an escrow service (in fact, since some of the items were worth thousands of dollars, it is quite likely an escrow service actually was employed). The fourth case was a stamp collection ring that was buying stamps on e-bay, altering them to make them appear to be in a better condition or appear to be different, more valuable stamps, and then selling them for a huge profit (with something approximating a 10:1 return). The buyers all thought they were getting what they paid for, so, again, an escrow service would not have helped any. An stamp collectors' organization called SCADS discovered the fraud and notified E-bay, which did not so much as suspend the ring leaders' accounts. When SCADS saw the abuse continue, they flooded the E-bay stamp collection message board with warnings against these auctions. In response, e-bay closed the message board. They then started sending e-mails of warning to those who were bidding on the stamps. In response, E-bay suspended their (i.e., the SCADS members') accounts, citing auction interference. The implication was that E-bay was protecting the stamp fraud ring because it was a profit-generating Power Seller, while lashing out against those who tried to warn potential suspects. To support this claim, MSNBC interviewed "Ron," who claims to have worked for the E-bay fraud department. He says he discovered a Power Seller who was phantom bidding and shut down his response. He got a call from higher up telling him not to do that again.
The apparent conclusion is that if you don't want to get ripped off, an escrow agent is insufficient. If you don't want to get ripped off, just don't use E-bay.
Buying on eBay is Folly (Score:5, Informative)
These guys have a superb rating on ResellerRating [resellerratings.com] , so why deal with some amateur / potential crook at Ebay?
Re:Buying on eBay is Folly (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Buying on eBay is Folly (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Buying on eBay is Folly (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Buying on eBay is Folly (Score:2)
Re:Buying on eBay is Folly (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.ubid.com
Cheers,
Slak
Re:Buying on eBay is Folly (Score:3, Interesting)
Ebay's Jurisdiction (Score:4, Insightful)
Do we sue the city when a street corner deal for tickets to a baseball game turns out to be fake tickets? (my english is temporarily disabled, now speaking gibberish)
Ebay used to only serve as connecting buyers with sellers. Now they have Billpoint, and seem to be trying to get in on every part of the deal.
Personally I think people should understand that buying from anyone, ultimately, is their responsibility.
Ebay also shouldn't claim that it can stop fraud, because that is virtually impossible (and a losing business venture if they do try).
Just a few thoughts . . .
Multi-part story (Score:5, Informative)
Part 1- The above linked story
Part 2- Cautionary tales of two auctions [msnbc.com]
Part 3- Auction fraud on the rise, some say [msnbc.com]
Part 4- Confessions of a scam artist [msnbc.com]
Part 5- Auction scam hits plasma TV buyers [msnbc.com]
Part 6- Auction fraud victims fight back [msnbc.com]
Part 7- eBay vs. the fraud police [msnbc.com]
Part 8- 'Deadbeat bidders' dog eBay sellers [msnbc.com]
Part 9- Fake escrow sites lure auction users [msnbc.com]
I lose $1000 per month because of ebay fraud. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I lose $1000 per month because of ebay fraud. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I lose $1000 per month because of ebay fraud. (Score:3, Funny)
It's the video proffesor from TV! Don't you give away the first copy of your CD free anyways?
But do people really, really care? (Score:5, Interesting)
How many people will read this article, or the posts on Slashdot byt the people that were ripped off, then go and buy something from eBay? Clearly, eBay knows that the majority of you will.
Your credit card provider doesn't help you, the small losses they get are covered by fees and interest rates. If it were a major problem, then Visa or Mastercard would close eBay's accounts.
Stores can prevent shoplifting by strip searching you all at the exit, but you won't go back. So, they tolerate a certain amount of "inventory shrinkage".
The fraud on eBay is tolerable to eBay, they're making tons of money......
You vote with your feet^H^H^H^Hmouse !
No big shock: look at how they handle spam (Score:5, Interesting)
I've forwarded them on to eBay, saying "I know you didn't send this, but it is trading on your trademarked name, and damaging your credibility. You REALLY should serve this guy with a cease-and-desist order".
Every time, eBay has sent me the auto-ack message, and most of the time, a follow up saying <voice type="Goofy">"Duhhh-up Dis didn't come from us, No Sir, it didn't. Cain't do a thing about it, nope."</voice>
eBay likes spam like that, because it encourages people to buy and sell stuff on eBay, making eBay money. As long as they have plausible deniability, and will therefor suffer no ill effects from the fraud themselves, they will tacitly allow it to continue.
Hello PayPal (Score:5, Informative)
When dealing with people online (Score:2, Insightful)
You should only buy things that cost as much as you are willing to loose. You rarely hear of companies engaging in massive fraud, it is usually from ebay, some similar auction site, and most often individuals. Stick to solid companies like amazon or airlines or dell. Or companies you trust. People are going to scam you and places like ebay provide the most potential victims. 5 or so years ago, the place was usenet. Just as much fraud went on there(and maybe still is, I haven't been there in a while.)
Amazon does it, so can ebay (Score:5, Interesting)
eBay morals up for auction... (Score:2, Interesting)
Unanswered fraud is unacceptable (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a reasonable statement, and quite easy to agree with. (and yes, I know that Hemos went on to negate this phrase)
Don't.
It is unquestionably a massive and difficult undertaking to deal with fraud when you're operating on an eBay-like scale. It is also a primary purpose of their existence. eBay MUST deal with fraud at whatever cost (create a whole infrastructure for it if necessary--remember that only a few short years ago there existed no online auctions at all!), or they're simply not doing their job.
Not intended as a rant or finger-pointing here. I just don't want to see them get away with sliding if they're trying to.
Escrow (Score:4, Redundant)
It will cost a little more and be a little more of a pain, but then your money will be safe until the product is legitimately coming your way.
Or if you don't want to pay for escrow, at least ASK the seller if they will use escrow. If they say they won't, then don't go through with it. If they do, then you can go through them and just don't use it. If they were bluffing, well, you are screwed... but you have a better shot.
That said, I never use escrow. And I have never gotten burned as in, never had the item shipped, but I have gotten things that don't work as advertised, and some other sub-par stuff. Not to mention that people will boost their own bids through the roof by setting up multiple accounts and bidding on their own stuff, if they think you want it. So I try to avoid eBay whenever possible.
Mark
Hard to enforce. (Score:2)
As much as it sucks, Ebay will never be able to play policeman. It's not what they do, and they don't have the time or money to do it. The best advice is just look at someone's rating and hope for the best. Another good tip is if you can find the item in the real world, or even through a site that specializes in that product, go through them. It may be a little more money, but you know it's going to get there.
Re:Hard to enforce? (Score:3, Insightful)
Just take the stamps, for example. The criminal penalties of messing with the US Post Office are insane! Don't suspend people, just drop a note to the feds. Yes, the feds... E-Bay is interstate commerce, so it's easy. Then, simply have ebay indicate whether a seller legitimately falls under US Federal Jurisdiction.
This is exactly what most internet commerce sites are unwilling to do. They have the impression that they have to do all the policing themselves. A large portion of the US government is devoted to consumer protection. As screwed up as I often feel the US government is, I shudder to think of big business completely running the show.
Re:Hard to enforce? (Score:3, Funny)
Yes and no (Score:4, Interesting)
THey just shut down my 2 celeron auctions because I said the bidder would have to pay the paypal CC costs if they used a CC.
They are uptight. But yes, they shut me down at the last section so I couldnt make the changes. THey must be too busy taking money to check the auctions...
In any event, yahoo auctions is the underground auction with nothing BUT fraud. I have NEVER had a fradulent auction on ebay. All 2 of my tries (to purchase) on yahoo were fradulent.
Putting this in perspective (Score:5, Insightful)
The only liability I see is the whole Power Seller rating system. This kind of implies that EBay deems this person a good seller and thus is promoting the seller above others.
Why isn't this looked upon the same way as an ISP and someone trafficking illegal material over the Internet?
Buy Locally or Use Escrow (Score:2, Informative)
So if you live in Peanutville, GA and need to buy something expensive, Egg Troll highly suggests you use eBay's escrow service: The seller doesn't get paid until you get the item. Egg Troll reminds you that escrow isn't perfect but its a lot better than nothing!
Conspiracy Theory (Score:2)
Even Mitnick gets fraudulent bids at Ebay! (Score:3, Interesting)
eBay: "We Don't Review It...We Don't Vouch For It (Score:3, Informative)
Ebay apparently will refer you to an independent dispute resolution service if you wish.
In other words, caveat emptor.
Let the buyer beware. (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't spend any amount more than I am willing to loose. I don't make any purchases over $50.
I also cannot understand why on earth someone would go on eBay and spend 100's of dollars. Wake up! You are sending your money to *some guy* in God knows where, to purchase an item unseen.
If you are so desparate to get a deal on a higher priced used item, try your local paper, swap meet, hack shop. I'm pretty sure you could pick whatever high priced item you desire without taking such a risk.
I have no sympathy for someone who plop's down $500 dollars to some unknown person, for an unseen product.. based only on eBay's "feedback".
Take my money PLEASE!
Do they still have...? (Score:2)
And no, I don't think I'm off-topic. The words fraud and Microsoft are synonymous here on
What's the big deal about shill bidding (Score:4, Interesting)
So, how do you fix the problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Every so often, we put up some auctions for networking equipment. Lately there has been a trend of people bidding on Cisco auctions (see this [msnbc.com] article) and never paying.
One Ebay user bid a Cisco 3640 router I was selling up to $2550. This same user created his account two days prior, and was the high or winning bidder on over 80 auctions. Here's [ebay.com] this user's Ebay winning bid history. Now, I'm not a mathematician, but this A-hole ruined over $64k of auctions. Sure, you can relist and file fraud reports, but what's to prevent someone else from doing this again and again? There's no accountability.
If they would require some type of user verification to buy and sell, wouldn't you think twice about fraud? Furthermore, why can't Ebay red-flag suspicious bidding patterns? I think everyone agrees that a new user probably will not bid on over 80 auctions worth over $64k in a couple of days.
Just my 2.47 yen.
Re:So, how do you fix the problem? (Score:3, Interesting)
After about a week I received nothing, and the seller then accused me of fraud! Saying that they had sent a Cashier's check and that the bank said it had cleared (which made me suspicious, considering that from what I read it can take some time to verify cashing of a cashier's check).
So I got the person's contact from eBay. Luckily it was valid, I called up, and spoke to the bidder's mother! It turns out the bidder was a 12 year old kid, thus not able to bid/sell on eBay legally. Once I contacted eBay with this information, and they saw a trend in the users account, I was refunded all listing fees and final value fees, and the users account was suspended permanently.
I think I was lucky to actually receive total reimbursement in this case. How often does eBay actually refund everything, and how often are you stuck with paying for listing fees for items that the seller vanished?
Shill bidding (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd guess that shill bidding happens in nearly every auction, and while its illegal, its too much trouble to try to fight it. Instead I just make sure that I never bid more than I'm willing to pay in the first place, since it's a given that I will pay whatever I bid. For this same reason, I never bid more than 75% of what I consider a "reasonable price" for an item, thus giving myself a 25% pad for the other types of fraud that might occur.
-TomK
Re:Shill bidding (Score:3, Interesting)
I almost always make my bid end in a quirky amount. The reason being that Ebay autoincrements by standard amounts (0.25, 0.50, 1.00). Given that most people bid even amounts (9.50, 10.00), I'll make my maximum bid something like 10.04. Hence, my bid will win over the more frequent maximum bid of 10.00.
But since Ebay autoincrements in even amounts, if I win over a bid that is at the last even amount prior to my maximum bid and then subsequently get outbid, the new high bid will still carry the .04.
That would make me suspicious as well. Although, such has happened to me before where I've consistently been outbid at my maximum amount in several auctions prior to finding an ad written so poorly most searches miss it.
in-depth journalism or guerrilla marketing? (Score:5, Interesting)
Irregardless of eBay's fraud issues, I take exception at the sincerity of this article.
Let's see.. an article on MSNBC.com (read Microsoft) about fraud horrors on eBay with no comparative analysis on how eBay stands up to the other major online houses with regards to fraud.
The "Advertising" gadget on the article's page has a link to MSN's (read Microsoft) auction partner uBid [msn.com].
Sounds like FUD with a splash of advertising to me.
Example.... (Score:3, Informative)
A couple weeks ago I bought an older HP printer of eBay, the seller didn't return my calls or emails, after I sent him the money, and was doing the same for a couple other people who had bought products from him. Well I filed a fraud complaint with PayPal, and they put the money on hold along with his PayPal account. This got the guys attention, so he called me, saying he would send the item only if I dropped the compaint, I told him I would only drop the compaint once I saw the item. In communicating with the guy I found he had at least a couple other eBay id's he was doing the same with (fake auctions), so I tried to contact eBay to let them know. I was refered to some consumer groups and webpages and such, I had a list of the ID's the guys was using and some background, statements from other people who were defrauded, and the guys location (or at least the one the number went back to that I was called on), along with the various aliases the guy was using. Just boggles my mind that they would ignore this.
Fraud on eBay *is* on the rise. (Score:3, Interesting)
I've seen the "shipping and handling" charges skyrocket, from about $3 on average before to over $5 now, sometimes hitting over $10 for something that could be sent UPS for $3. I've bought stuff that was mis-identified, and had a biatch of a time trying to get a dime back from the sellers. I've even had flat-out fraud - one seller took my money, and that of several other people, then voluntarily suspended his registration, so I cannot even warn future (like, six months from now) victims.
EBay used to provide a service, "Safe Harbour", to help mediate in these affairs. Recently, however, the FAQ on what to do about fraud has changed, and it's now totally out of eBay's hands. I've tried calling the seller who took my money and ran, to no avail. It's been consistantly either busy, or no answer. I did a reverse-lookup on the phone number, and it doesn't even belong to the seller.
I'm just out the $20, I guess. EBay doesn't care. PayPal doesn't care. And, as long as people can get a new email account from Hotmail and Yahoo, they'll be able to do this. And, as long as the per-person bit is small, fraudsters will continue getting away with it.
I no longer feel safe unless I'm buying from a seller with ***lots*** of feedback. Perhaps one way eBay could help prevent this sort of fraud would be to require a real email account, not some cheesy Web-based freebie. Perhaps they need to verify address information - make registration cost a dollar, then snail-mail them a temporary password. However, though either approach would help deter fraudsters, both would cut down on eBay's revenue while increasing their costs, so I really don't see it changing soon. What may help force the change is if more buyers just stopped buying things. When eBay's bottom line begins to suffer, *then* we'll see a real change take place. Until then, caveat emptor.
Hi, my name is Oliver, and I'm an Ebayaholic... (Score:4, Funny)
Buying - I ordered some of those 'breast enlargement pills' for my girlfriend. It's not something I wanted for her, but she was planning to buy some of the more expensive ones from a TV advertisement and I told her we could save money by using ebay. I ordered four bottles (to get the free shipping offered) and was told I would have them within 3 business days. Two weeks later, still no pills. I wrote several times and called and left phone messages. I eventually got an e-mail stating that they had been shipped to the wrong address and a new shipment was being sent out and that I would be receiving 6 bottles instead of the 4 I had paid for. One and a half weeks later they still hadn't arrived, and I left negative feedback for that seller. In less than 2 hours after posting the feedback, the seller used PayPal to refund my money. I then turned around and ordered the same pills from a different vendor, my girlfriend used them for a couple of weeks and said that they were making her fat and so she threw them out.
Selling - I had an old Sega Genesis system and about 20 games for it that I never used any more. Posted it for sale, one guy kept bidding and rebidding and drove the price up high, won the auction and then never sent any money and never responded to e-mail. Within one week, his feedback dropped from around +10 to -5, so it was obvious that someone was abusing that account, no way of knowing if it was the true owner or not. I notified ebay and was allowed to re-run the auction a second time for no additional cost and ended up selling it to a legitimate buyer for about $20 less than what the first auction closed for.
Since I first started using ebay, I have purchased 3 computers (all the same), 3 digital cameras (all different), a digital camcorder, jewelry, perfume, children's toys, software, hardware, flashlights, those glow-chemical bracelets, lockpicks, magic tricks, universal remote controls, more stuff than I can even remember, and those are the only two incidents I've ever had.
I don't think using ebay is any more unsafe than most other forms of shopping, I'd worry more about buying/selling stuff through a newspaper classified ad, because you never know what's going to happen when you get to the other person's house, or worse yet, when they come to your home.
As a side note, my two greatest ebay deals involved Bob & Tom [bobandtom.com] albums. I had a fairly complete set of their CD's, a total of 17 discs, one autographed, and one autographed poster. I sold the entire collection for $420 cash to someone living in the same town. A year later in the back of my closet I found a copy of Bob and Tom, A Day At the Race, a very limited edition cassette (only 500 copies made) that I listed and sold for $450... not bad considering I'd only paid $10 for it when it was new, which wasn't all that long ago...
Ebay is based on a Fraud promoting culture (Score:4, Insightful)
Fraud is part of Ebay's culture, just some people take it to extremes more than others.
Anyone who uses ebay for more than 3 months knows about sniping, then they sign up to auctionstealer or other sniping site to join the fun. Then they snipe on the newbies and give them a start on the bitterness ladder. Okay it's not Fraud but it starts people thinking of ways to 'beat the system'. Anger leads to hate, etc...
Others start selling becuase their co-workers are selling. Before you know it, they are shill-biding on each others auctions once they see someone biding passionately and wildly. Its common practice.
Then there are other sellers that take poetic license and describe goods using vague but attractive terminology, 'virtually new', or 'must be seen' to be believed. They know that some gullible people are afraid to leave negative feedback, because a evil seller will retort with the same. (Oh, the shame of having a minus on your record!)
Most people who use Ebay for long enough, learn the tricks of the trade. It polices itself, which implies Fraud must be committed before it can be reported.
You can only prevent fraud by controlling auctions tightly, then the whole 'neighbourhood policing' aspect of the software goes away, which is worth more to Ebay in goodwill than losing a few customers over fraud.
Gee, that doesn't sound suprising... (Score:5, Interesting)
Personally, I've never been defrauded on ebay and this is how I do it.
Firstly, If its a big purchase (like 500 bucks or more) I tell the seller to send it to me COD but to only specify bank checks, not personal checks. This keeps everybody honest. In all cases, I offer to pay the added expense and have the seller just tack it onto the total cost.
If I'm selling something and the person wants to do it COD, the only way I do it is bank check. I've had people call me up and complain loudly how the person came to the door but wouldn't give them the package because they had a personal check. It's that old saying "Locks keep honest people honest"
Now for smaller things, I'm confortable with paypal, provided that the person is "verified."
A good laugh (Score:3, Funny)
SEC? (Score:4, Informative)
Auto Makers seem intent on avoiding better cars (Score:3, Insightful)
I auctioned off a web server on eBay, fetching a high bid of about $1,100. The high bidder promptly contacted me and submitted payment via eBay Payments (aka BillPoint).
The buyer also asked me to ship the server via overnight Saturday-delivery FedEx, using his account number. This is a huge "red flag" for fraud -- only the account holder can get proof of delivery, and the account holder can ask to redirect the delivery location. When somebody says that rush shipping costs are not important, shippers should worry that the buyer's primary goal is to get the product in hand before they are "discovered" (e.g. fraudulent credit card payment).
Since I was suspicious, I checked the online payment information carefully, and was surprised to find that my payment record reflected the occurrence of a "bypassing event" on the same day payment instructions were submitted. That sounds pretty bad -- like maybe it's a dispute or other problem that will cause the payment to be reversed (my bank confirmed that a transfer was initiated but had not yet been completed, whatever that meant).
So I called eBay, and got run around in circles before being allowed to leave a phone message (I left several messages, none of which were ever returned). And I sent email to the official eBay Payments (BillPoint) support addresses, and got autoreplies promising a response within 24 to 48 hours. After trying several strategies, I called the buyer, disclosed my concerns, and advised him that I could not ship the server until eBay Payments (BillPoint) confirmed that the payment was complete and that the "bypassing event" was not a reversal. He said he understood.
Over the course of the next two weeks, eBay responded to each email I sent, about 48 hours after I sent it, but although they quoted back my question to me, they would not answer or even discuss the issue of what is a "bypassing event." I suspect my responses were coming from a collection of boilerplate replies. Each time I received a reply, I wrote back, repeating the single question, "What is a bypassing event," and citing my transaction number and other data. Each time, they replied after 48 hours without answering the question.
Finally, after two weeks, I confirmed with my bank that the funds had been transferred and they could find no record of any attempt to cancel or reverse the transaction -- and so I shipped the server to the fellow via FedEx Express Saver (3-day delivery), using his FedEx number.
The next day (after the server was already in transit), eBay Payments finally wrote back answering my repeated question: they informed me that a "bypassing event" simply reflected that the buyer had forgotten his BillPoint password and had manually re-entered his credit card payment information.
I have closed my eBay Payments (BillPoint) account, and I will not accept payment through their payments scheme, ever again. Since eBay has acquired PayPal, I will also cease accepting PayPal as a payment method, since I assume the same inept customer service will apply there, too.
i was scammed (Score:3, Funny)
unfortunately, when it arrived it turned out to be warez.
so, i contacted the seller to tell him the warez wasn't going to work for me, and that i needed the $110 refunded. he didn't like that much, and said i was being a jerk. that's when i realized there wasn't going to be any reasoning with him (not that that was a huge surprise).
i tried contacting ebay a number of times, but they would never get back to me. so much for help from them.
the seller lives in Miami. unfortunately, i live on the other side of the country. anyone in Miami want to do me the favor of going to this guy's house and and getting me some collateral worth at least $110? i'll pay you half of the $110 for the job. contact me for the seller's address.
really, what other choices do i have?
How to avoid Ebay ripoffs -- my tips (Score:4, Informative)
I've spent a LOT of time digging around for hardware (and other stuff) on Ebay, following various auctions and dealers, and have read a lot in and asked around in many of the user forums there, and have reached several conclusions
about sellers:
ALWAYS read ALL of a seller's NEGATIVE feedback before bidding. (If you use ebay a lot, you may want to subscribe to http://www.vrane.com's feedback checker service.) Good vendors won't have more than 0.15% negative feedback. More than 0.3% negative feedback is a redflag; more than 1.0% is usually a bad dealer or a con artist.
Positive feedback numbers and content CAN be rigged via the "penny auctions" loophole, so positive feedback in itself is fairly useless.
ALWAYS read ALL of the "NEGATIVE FEEDBACK LEFT FOR OTHERS" *by* any seller you intend to deal with. How they respond to their own bad deals is a *VERY* good indicator of how they'll be to work with in the event that what they send you is defective or is not as represented.
Sellers who use *L00K* and/or bogus phrases in their item titles (just WTF is "emulator friendly" anyway??!) are the ebay equivalent of spammers. I no longer even view items with such titles.
ALWAYS check regular online vendor outlets, Pricewatch, etc, first. Typically, used computer hardware sold on Ebay winds up going for 150% of the new retail price, just because most people have no clue what components really sell for. (I've seen used HDs go for 300% of retail, and used memory going for TEN TIMES the local new price!!)
Sellers who start every auction with "$1.00" or "$0.01" prices are more likely to be cons than those who start with something realistic. People who sell hardware *regularly* on ebay are MORE likely to be cons than are people who only sell hardware here occasionally.
ALWAYS email the seller prior to bidding, and ask some question about the item, even if you already know the answer. The tone of the response you get can tell you plenty about how they'll be to deal with. If you get NO response, "go look it up yourself", or a CANNED response, or if they dodge any of your questions, DON'T BID.
If they take ONLY cash or money orders for computer hardware, DON'T BID.
When in doubt for ANY reason, DON'T BID.
BTW for categories other than hardware, the above all apply except that there are good sellers of other stuff who do it all the time.
(This material is public domain. It's already been posted in the ebay discussion forums, where several of the GOOD hardware dealers came out of the woodwork, and applauded the concepts.)
I'm upset about eBay's policy (Score:3, Funny)
[/sarcasm]
Phantom bidding (Score:3, Insightful)
I told him I knew he'd been phantom bidding, and he could go eat the eBay fees. If fewer eBay users were gullible idiots, phantom bidders wouldn't be such a problem--they'd end up losing money.
Having said that, there's clearly a problem in that eBay makes more money the higher the final bid--so it's in their financial interest not to act on charges of (successful) phantom bidding.
Re:Lock funds system (Score:2)
Re:Lock funds system (Score:3, Funny)
Ass.