Dot ComBack, Or More Of The Same? 244
adamsmith_uk writes "The FT features Wall Street's renewed love affair with dotcom stocks on Monday with the latest in a $6bn string of acquisitions that has helped set light to the once-defunct online commerce sector. Could this be the signs of the tech ComBack ?" But hold onto your hopes; ekarjala writes "According to this CNet article, a recent survey by theInformation Technology Association of America indicates that IT hiring in the US is expected to remain flat or decline slightly over the course of 2003. The main drivers are lack of demand for IT products/services and outsourcing IT functions offshore."
Am I the only one... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Am I the only one... (Score:3, Interesting)
Therefore a 'ComBack' of that would be with people buying and selling stock. It doesn't matter if the company sells stuff or not
Re:Am I the only one... (Score:2)
One must consider:
1. Why are they in a position to consider prospects? If they are educated, have some insight and idean, they probably do have a good idea.
2. Do they have any conflicting interests?
3. In the long run they will be shown out, almost. The short run can determine the long run (e.g., restrict capital raising thus preventing a company's growth), and the long run can never truely be achieved is pe
Re:Am I the only one... (Score:5, Interesting)
It happened with the advent of the Railroad, and it happened again with the advent of the Internet.
The problem is the time between news breaking and a market reaction. Thanks to the Internet, it is now incredibly small, and in many cases negative, and that creates difficult conditions for companies to work in.
This will be the case until market forces figure out how to operate a stable economy under these new conditions. This will happen "naturally", it won't require any one person or body to anything in particular.
Remember.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Remember.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, even now, it's one of the VERY FEW that are making a profit.
Amazon is still struggling to break even.
The sad fact is the huge majority were bombs.
Re:Remember.. (Score:4, Insightful)
This is very true, but the problem was exaggerated by investors that were too gung over "dot com hype" to carefully look at the financials that they would have done with any other sector.
Re:Remember.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Unwise investments weren't limited to the dot bombs.
Look at energy, for instance: Enron. I'm no accountant, but I can usually read a balance sheet. Theirs was written with the intent to conceal a whole mess of liabilities and inflate the stock price. That's exactly why Arthur Andersen is in a boatload of trouble and a bunch of their execs are facing criminal penalties.
And the analysts and professional investors should be able to read understand this stuff. They SHOULD have been able to see a company with a very badly mangled balance sheet, and recognize that a company not forthcoming about its financial situation probably has ample reason to lie or at least obfuscate.
Look at telecoms. How many other people here watched Qwest go tits-up? And being a Qwest customer, the notion of seeing Nacchio and Anschutz in Canon City married to the self-respecting armed robber with the most cigarettes doesn't offend me as much as it probably should.
It wasn't just techs. There were plenty of other sectors in which investors didn't do the due diligence.
Re:Remember.. (Score:2)
Re:Remember.. (Score:2)
Re:Remember.. (Score:2)
Re:Remember.. (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not because they're inefficient that they can't compete on price. It's because they don't buy as many books as Walmart or even Borders and the other chain bookstores, and therefore they can't force the publishers to give them the same discounts the chains get.
Still, some folks would prefer the independent bookstores to stay in business for reasons of self-interest, and so we're willing to pay a little more for our books. Among those reasons: ambiance-- if you spend any time at bookstores, you'd like the experience to be as pleasant as possible, selection-- the chain bookstores seem to have a lot of books, but they buy books based primarily on which books sell the greatest numbers, unlike small specialty shops that carry a wider selection in their area of interest, and availability of small press titles-- you won't find small press books in the chain stores.
Finally, if your interests are primarily financial, reflect on the fact that mom and pop won't be able to buy your products if they go out of business. True, their store will be replaced by a chain store, with lots of minimum wageslaves-- but are those your best customers? And the profits from that chain will go elsewhere and won't be spent in your community.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:US != The world (Score:5, Informative)
And why not outsource offshore? If a product is homogenous enough to outsource, its up to the individual to use their privilaged position to create as unique and innovative product/service as possible instead of bitching their job is not protected (against others who could probably do it better).
Re:US != The world (Score:4, Informative)
I've believed for some time that "outsourcing offshore" is more an excuse to explain the current situation rather than a real cause. Articles such as the one I just cited only support my belief.
Re:US != The world (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a friend who recently went from having a huge office full of programmers to leasing a small amount of office space at another company for him and the other principles as all of the "real" programming is now being done in Vietnam.
Re:US != The world (Score:5, Insightful)
Get back to me in a year and let me know how it went. The two cases of outsourcing overseas I know of first-hand were a total money pit. One of them they finally cancelled the whole thing after throwing $2 million towards India. They eventually did the logical thing: Wrote the damn thing themselves.
Vietnam? Like I said, let me know how it goes.
Re:US != The world (Score:2, Informative)
136 billion being outsourced is nothing to sneeze at. Especially if your out of work.
If you lose your job from a cheap third world laborer your opinion will change quickly. The only reason companies are doing this is because they want to take advantage
Re:US != The world (Score:2, Interesting)
Just at the right time.. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Just at the right time.. (Score:5, Funny)
We have become increasingly concerned with your lack of committment to the Fast Food Industry. We feel your desire to become a geek rather than concentrating on your McDonalds smile and practising your "would you like fries with that" indicate you may not be the best candidate for us. Unfortunately after seeing your post on Slashdot we therefore have choosen not to continue with your application.
Best Regards
Human Resources
McDonalds
What's that smell? (Score:2)
Beer prize bungle is hard to swallow [xnewswire.com]
Re:What's that smell? (Score:2)
Re:What's that smell? (Score:2)
Employment lags (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Employment lags (Score:5, Interesting)
And now, I have good sources telling me companies are putting out FAKE open positions to make it look that they are busy.
Re: fake positions (Score:2)
Many of these are from the same company (which I'll refrain from naming) that apparently has a policy of collecting up resumes into an H.R. database well in advance of actually having the advertised openings available. The listings aren't exactly "fake". They're simply for positions they coul
Re:Employment lags (Score:2)
I'm interested in how you came through that.
Where did you live? How exactly?
That would be enough time that for me, I would seriosly be considering going TO India, Mexico, or Africa. Maybe I can have food and shelter in return for teaching English or something.
Re:Employment lags (Score:2, Insightful)
Fortunately, the numbers are on my side. April saw growth of the service sector:
http://reuters.com/financeNewsArticle.jh t ml?type=e conomicNews&storyID=2684060
If it were growing, TAX REVENUES WOULD BE GROWING IN KIND.
What tax revenues? Sales tax? Is it not clear from the previous discussion that jobs (and therefore consumer spending) are late to pick up after a recession?
Property tax? Housing values are down, but some of that is th
Re:Employment lags (Score:2)
The aggregate withholding figures would damn near be a real-time indicator.
Oh yeah? (Score:5, Funny)
Just pointing out the humor of two (sorta) contridictory stories here on
OK it's a boring day
LNUX (Score:3, Insightful)
Up 22% today...Hmmmm.
(Yes that's right, Slashdot's ticker symbol is LNUX)
Re:LNUX (Score:2, Funny)
So put that 20% increase in some perspective, eh?
looks like a bit of a comeback... (Score:5, Interesting)
I got made redundant with 2000 or so shares which I still happen to keep. Those shares have risen 80% or so since I left the company late last year.
I realise that I can't place my experience as the norm, but it is at least one example of a company recovering and nearly reaching profitability.
Overall, in my view, the companies that have thus far survived the crash of the
Go figure
More of the same (Score:2)
> Those shares have risen 80% or so since I left the company late last year ... but it is at least one example of a company recovering and nearly reaching profitability.
Yep, sounds like history is repeating itself...
Don't call it a ComBack... (Score:5, Funny)
Seriously, it's a matter of stocks getting back to realistic values. Investors are taking a look, and seeing a realistic chance for profit--so they're returning, albeit cautiously. Where there's money, the market will follow, eventually.
There will always be startups. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not like 1998-2001 showed that internet-based companies can't be successful, it just showed that you don't need to be a publicly traded company to sell mail-order dog food.
good point (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:There will always be startups. (Score:2)
Yup, although there are also companies like where I work [oculan.com]. It was formed about 3 years ago (right as the dot-com bubble was heading to the peak) but we actually had a business plan. We didn't do crazy things, and we're now working our asses off towards profitability. Whether or not we make it is up to us, but at least we didn't jump in with bad expectations, and we're in a position where we can actually make it happen.
Our first CEO has now passed off control to one with more experience growing small c
Kozmo, VC's and IPO's. (Score:3, Interesting)
I started out in the tech sector. Unix helpdesk manager was my previous job. After the bubble burst and the WTC went down I quit the desk job and bummed around for a while until I became a bicycle messenger (that's a whole nother story).
Anyhow, because of my new job, I've met a lot of ex-Kozmo messengers (in Chicago). They talk about how great it was to get tipped (messengers generally don't) and how dangerous i
A little advice for all the out of work techies.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A little advice for all the out of work techies (Score:2)
For the folks who have already gotten the degree/student loans/pink slip, here [slashdot.org] is a rant I wrote about dealing with unemployment insurance in the US.
Re:A little advice for all the out of work techies (Score:2)
I program at home as a hobby. Just got some more source to compile. Hit a milestone. I plan on going to work and programming some more. You mentioned you are 23 (IIRC). I'm a little older and started at an early age.
In all honesty, if you love to program, the only thing that will affect your opinion is where you work. Some people work in small companies. Some work in la
Re:A little advice for all the out of work techies (Score:2)
My post was intended more for the people who got into the field for the money rather than for the love.. and I know that they're out there. A number of my friends who have tech degrees didn't know a thing about computers before hand.. they just knew that tech was (supposedly) where th
Re:A little advice for all the out of work techies (Score:2)
[ insert long flame here insulting many parts of your anatomy ]
Damnit. I hate being in agreement
Moral of the story (Score:2)
Re:A little advice for all the out of work techies (Score:2)
I tried help desk, pc repair, copier repair, and merchandising.
I sucked at every one of these jobs except merchandising where I did ok.
I have a mild form of autism which makes my eye/hand cordination bad and social skills mediocre at best. Many geeks have this supprisingly and studies are underway to prove this.
Anyway for me this means the only skill I have is my brain. I am going back to school so I can have a job using it.
My point is your post is a great idea f
Re:A little advice for all the out of work techies (Score:2)
I'm sorry to hear about your condition.. and you're right, it sounds like you're physically not suited for trade work. A passable level of hand eye cordination is required.. for both precision requirements and safety reasons.
You have to remember, however, that the sterotypical "computer nerd" (physically weak, poor cordination, etc.) is no longer the average tech graduate. Since the mid 90's, more and more "average" people h
Re:A little advice for all the out of work techies (Score:2)
Re:Grass is always greener. (Score:2)
I'll tell you, most blue-collar workers I know make more cash than I.T. people I know (even I.T. managers in some cases, though they're probaby close to equal).
Nonetheless, I've stubbornly stuck with I.T. jobs only, despite the lure of much better pay. Mostly, it's for the reasons you cite. I'm not really fond of working out in the heat and cold, and/or tearing up my body. (Just one hospital stay not covered by insurance could set a person
Does this really surprise anyone (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the purposes of tariffs and trade agreements, back in the day was to keep jobs from leaving the country.
But that day is past. The race to the bottom has been enshrined not merely as a matter of current policy but the cornerstone of international law (cf. GATT, NAFTA, WTO and so on). Here in the States most educated White men vote Republican. Most IT people educated White men. If we voted against our best interests we have nobody but ourselves to blame.
Early on we thought that we would be safe. Steel and textiles might go overseas, but not high-tech. Then semiconductors moved away. And consumer electronics. That's alright, we said, the engineering and design, the programming and the day-to-day business of managing information will stay here. They followed. Because jobs like those are even easier to move - you don't even have to absorb the fixed costs of a factory, just phone lines.
And the jobs that stayed? Wages are sinking there because we weren't politically active. We let the big employers pervert the H1-B visa program EXPLICITLY to cut our wages and job security.
The action by Sun employees to fight back against job destruction fell off the screen. Largely because we didn't keep attention on it.
So look for a recovery in the IT industry. But don't ever look for a recovery in salaries or security. At least not until people pull their heads out and undo the disastrous effects of the Reagan "revolution" and its sequels.
For a couple good if older references take a look at "America, What Went Wrong" and "America, Who Really Pays the Taxes".
Re:Does this really surprise anyone (Score:2)
No, wages are sinking because of the same old boring factors of supply and demand. Protectionist measures can mitigate the problem by delaying the inevitable - for example, to give workers time to retrain for a different job. It cannot change the fact that somebody in India or China is willing to do the same job for less money. The work is simply worth less money because of that.
Re:Does this really surprise anyone (Score:2)
I know isn't it sad? We have 3 billion people on this planet, and somehow we need to find work for them? We had 100 years of making human labor obsolete through the machinery, now our own brains are becoming obsolete due to computers. What happens in 50 years when the human being as a productive instrument is no longer necessary for anything other than prostitution and food service? What happens if the demand for humans
Re:Does this really surprise anyone (Score:3, Insightful)
Go to Mexico.
Re:The myth of protectionist tariffs (Score:5, Insightful)
Ahh, a college student. He still thinks the fundamental aspect of an economy is based on the scarcity of goods.
As has been said countless times here and elsewhere, the United States once funded its entire government with tarriffs, and that was when the country was most free. From a purely economic standpoint, tariffs are perhaps a bad idea. But we don't care about economics. We realize that right now, wealth and prosperity is acquired by this thing we call "work". We can't have a society where there is no work, otherwise what the fuck is the point of living? The community is the reason we exist.
The laws of supply and demand work for people too. Right now, the demand for human ingenuity and artistic vision is very very low, so the majority of people are corporate/government bureaucrats, impotent university drones, or modern day servants. This is not a society of which we should be proud. I mean, look at yourself. Maybe if it was your job, your family, your house, on the line you would think a little differently. Do we really want a society where grown men act like children reading ridiculous economics books until they are 30 years old? How is that life?
My advice to you, is get your head out of the economics book and learn a little bit about human nature of life. Your senseless faith in the cult of efficiency that is economics is a disservice to your humanity and society as a whole. We don't need people for purely productive purposes, we have more than enough people to produce whatever we could possibly desire. Lets give our own people that work.
Re:The myth of protectionist tariffs (Score:4, Informative)
1. Keep foreign aid low to save money.
2. Keep imports lower than exports, so that we produce more stuff and have more jobs.
3. Act as the Reserve currency for the world. This allows us to largely ignore currency fluctuations. It also means that when we print money that we can buy foreign goods with it.
To provide the Reserve currency, the US has to export dollars (for other countries to use in their transactions). To export dollars, we either have to buy stuff (i.e. import) or give them away (i.e. foreign aid). We choose to maintain a trade deficit. This results in our receiving goods in exchange for a product with a very high profit margin, money (even if we had to print paper currency, the profit on printing money is over 90%; in point of fact though, the relevant transactions are generally electronic; electronic creation of money is close to 100% profitable; the only danger is that eventually we might have to provide goods for the money).
Tariffs won't reduce the trade deficit (unless they lower world demand for dollars). Instead, tariffs reduce *exports*. Why? Because they reduce imports and take away foreign countries ability to buy our goods (since they don't provide the world's reserve currency, foreign countries need dollars to buy our goods; unless we send them some, they can't buy). Since exports are five to ten times the size of the trade deficit, we would stand to lose more than we could possibly gain.
Don't believe me? Perhaps you should take a little look at history. What bill's passage in 1929 led to Black Monday's crash in October? Yes, that's it, the Smoot Hawley tariff act. The domino effect (as other countries responded with their own tariffs) cracked open the world economic system. This was followed by a power struggle between the Fed's Board of Governors (Greenspan is the current Chairman) and the Fed. Reserve Bank of NY, which led to the US money supply being cut in half.
There is only one way to get out of a recession and that is to increase demand. To increase demand, you need to increase the money supply. To increase the money supply, you need the Fed to release more money. To get the Fed to release more money, you need to convince them that inflation is under control. Since tariffs exist to allow domestic products to be priced higher, they cause inflation. Thus, tariffs will make it harder to get the Fed to increase the money supply and lengthen the recession.
But did they learn their lesson ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Did the rookies and experienced dotcommers learn anything from their experiences or those of others; or, will they do the same thing - make a little money, think they're all that (no offense to all you failed dotcommers) and hire people to do things they could easily do themselves and buy a bunch of equipment they have no need for? Thus putting them into dept which they will never recover from and putting their dotcom on that big server in the sky.
Please, No! (Score:5, Insightful)
A few years ago, pundits said anyone who didn't perceive the internet's magical power to mint money "just don't get the internet."
Shortly before the first dotcom boom went bust, I saw an enthusiastic stock analyst on one of the financial news shows. He defended his extravagant valuations of companies that had never made a profit and had never articulated when or how they intended to start making a profit. Profit and loss statements and P/E ratios were archaic and obsolete relics of the old economy, he said. "Now it's all about branding."
Who didn't get it?
It's likely that the bust left some tech stocks undervalued. There may be some bargains to be had. There are undoubtedly opportunities for real businesses that figure out that the interenet, like the telephone company, lets a company communicate with its customers. That doesn't change the fundamental fact that a company still needs to find some way to actually make money.
(Personally, I don't think we've let all the hot air out of the bubble yet. Time will tell.)
This is just scavenger hunt (Score:5, Interesting)
My company recently received this... (Score:4, Interesting)
Here is the letter...
Dear Sir / Madam,
We are pleased to introduce ourselves as software-coders, consultants, programmers and allied services providers, based in India, providing software coding and development services. We already have clients in India, Germany, Switzerland, UK and the UAE to whom we provide the best quality at very low costs as outlined below.
SERVICESWe provide software services ranging from complete software development of a complete project to providing pure coding services based on a previously analysed and prepared structure. This thus includes the complete spectrum of software development, be it custom or Internet software development. The various software services that we provide are -
Custom Software Development, Internet / Intranet Software Development and Website Designing and Development Database Maintenance and Handling Testing (Manual) Documentation (Help, Tutorials and Manuals, Demos) Customer Support Services via E-mail and Customer Correspondence Management Representation in India for various purposesPRICING
Other Services:Software Coding and Development: We offer rates depending on the nature and complexity of the work, but to give an indication we have per man-hour rates varying from US $ 1 to US $ 18. For bulk assignments the rates are worked out accordingly. Generally speaking, the rate for pure coding job is less than a programming job.
This depends entirely on the requirements and services required.
LEAD AND DEVELOPMENT TIME
Other Services:Coding:
For pure coding assignment, when the program structure is clearly defined and outlined, the lead-time is about 7 days and after that a daily update can be sent.
The lead-time and development time depends on the labour involved and complexity of the software project.
TECHNICAL SKILLS AND KNOW-HOW
OS:Microsoft Windows 95/98/2000/NT/ XP, RedHat Linux 6.2 and above .
Programming Languages:
Java, C/C++, SQL, Basic, Fox Pro, PL/SQL
Internet/Intranet Technologies:
TCP/IP, Servlets, Applets, Flash, Shockwave, ActiveX, COM/DCOM, SSL, CORBA
Java/J2EE Technologies:
Enterprise JavaBeans, JDBC, AWT, RMI, Servlets, JSP, Swing, JMS, Applets, JNDI, JNI, JavaMediaFramework, JavaSound, JComm, Image handling and processing, JavaMail, JAXP
Scripting Languages:
JSP, ASP, CFML, JavaScript, VBScript
Markup Languages:
HTML/DHTML, CSS, SSI, WAP/WML, XML/XSL/DTD
Application Servers:
BEA WebLogic, Macromedia ColdFusion, MS Internet Information Server, Apache Web Server, IBM Web-Sphere, JBoss, Macromedia JRun
Tools:
Application Development:
Visual Basic, VC++, GCC, Developer 2000, Delphi, Power Builder, MS VJ++ 6.0, Oracle JDeveloper , Borland J.Builder, Sun JDK 1.0.x - 1.4, VisualAge Java
Web Development:
Macromedia Dreamweaver, Microsoft FrontPage, Adobe Photoshop, CorelDraw
DBMS and Database:
MS SQL Server, ORACLE 7.x-8.1.x, mySQL, Sybase, Informix, MS Access, ODBC, JDBC, PostgreSQL
GUI Systems:
Win32 API, MFC, AWT, JFC
Software Libraries:
MFC, ANSI C++ STL, ATL
We are sure that you would find these rates very competitive and our services up to the mark. However please let us know if you need any clarification.
Thanking you in anticipation,
Yours faithfully,
Navdesh
beta infosoft services, # 741, Nelson Square, Chhindwara Road, Nagpur , Maharashtra, India 440 013
Email: betainfosoft@sify.com
Re:My company recently received this... (Score:3, Insightful)
Very interesting. Welcome to the real New World Order. Turns out software coding is a skill which can be easily taken on by developing economies. Skills which earned six figures only a couple of years ago can be bought for $1 per hour. Now that's some unfettered free-market competition for you! LOL.
Re:My company recently received this... (Score:2)
I guess that's the theory, but does it hold?
Can you really get someone who's had university physics, chemistry, calculus, and some experience working in an American corporation for a significant amount of time, for $1/hr?
Or is there an apples-to-oranges comparison being made somewhere?
There's gold in Iraq... (Score:5, Interesting)
"Every business-minded person is looking at Iraq after the war because it is a very rich country," said Riad Safar... Iraq's market potential, as it moves to replace out-of-date business and health systems, is bigger than that of many of its neighbors, including Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates and perhaps Saudi Arabia....
The senior official at Kuwait-based systems integrator International Turnkey Systems, said in a telephone interview today that he thinks "it's going to be a huge market."
And that's just one of a number of articles I've read lately salivating over the prospects of Iraq as a market for American goods.
Maybe the broadband Internet will be up and running before the water is.
Should be "Dot Cum-back" (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, as mentioned in earlier threads on different stories, there are a few real profit-generating (though I think overvalued) companies (eBay & the like) that have a proven business model and have expressed stable, steady growth.
People will still be "eBaying", or something like it in 20 years.
People in 20 years will still go to the grocery store and not buy their groceries online. It's inefficient, and to me represents the sheer economic waste that went along with the dot.bomb.
And will anyone be paid $100/hour to make crappy webpages ever again? I don't think so.
bad name (Score:2)
Am I the only one who has developed some sort of Pavlovian reflex where I immediately despise any organization named "Blank Blank Association of America"?
I know, I know, (- a billion, Offtopic), blah, blah, blah...
There's one other main driver. (Score:2)
Dolemite
____________________
Union Union Union (Score:2)
Believe it or not it's driven by SPAM .... (Score:2, Interesting)
What's even more ironic about this boom and kind of scarey to me is the same companies that are producing SPAM security/prevention software are also (a few) producing mass mailing software that tricks sendmail. SPAM advertisers are hiring lots of IT people right now, particularly in T
When contemplating the name "Dot Comback"... (Score:2)
The next boom... (Score:2, Insightful)
When your phone, PDA, notebook, computer, watch, gameboy, or whatever can instantly access the internet, anytime, anywhere, and at high-speed then the flood gates will open.
We're not there yet, but it's not far off.
ITAA (Score:4, Informative)
How to make it big online: (Score:3, Funny)
I'd do this in a second if I could figure out a way to arrange for a female partner (either kinky girlfriend or ambitious non-romantic low-inhibition type). But, I'm a slashdotter -- no girlfriend, no prospects, and I haven't been laid in two years. Oh well... But maybe one of you guys will have better luck.
You too can find a job, with security, in the US (Score:3, Interesting)
There are IT jobs that can never be outsourced. Why? Because they require security clearances and those can only be given to US citizens. While they may not pay you top commercial dollar, they will certainly pay you well. However you usually must already have a security clearance, but you can't get a clearance without sponsorship. Chicken and Egg.
However I believe if you are willing to move, you can find a secure job. Possibly even companies that will sponsor you for clearance. Most likely this will mean that you are working for the government or military, and will have to put up with background checks.
But it keeps you employed, no?
Re:Yeah, offshore outsourcing (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Yeah, offshore outsourcing (Score:5, Interesting)
You have to figure which have a decent likelihood of being done elsewhere. Management tends to stay in one spot, since they don't like to vote themselves to having to relocate, and they wouldn't outsource themselves. Lower levels get moved to cut costs.
Especially if management sees you as a blue-collar worker, you're going to get moved. Unfortunately, programming is often seen by people who don't program as a rather easy process. Ideas go in, program comes out. The programmers are just more people on the assembly line. It's a different kind of factory, but still a factory in the eyes of the management. Factories are staffed by monkeys, monkeys can be hired for cheaper in other parts of the world. Therefore, outsource.
So yeah, the key is figuring out which jobs management thinks require intelligence and skills, and can't be done by just anyone. Programming isn't one of those.
I blame the # of people who tried to prove them right by rushing to get a degree in some computers/tech field and polluting the job pool. If your answer for "Why did you get a degree in X" is "For the money", I hate you. I program because that's what I like doing. I don't care about the money, as long as it's enough to eat. Unfortunately people who got their CS degrees (or whatever your university called it) and might have maybe learned the mechanics of writing programs and how comptuers work, but not how to design programs that work well are the problem. Eventually they'll be fired as the incompetents they are, and the people who know their stuff will get hired/promoted.
At least, that's what I keep telling myself while looking for a job.
Re:Yeah, offshore outsourcing (Score:2)
Who said it was art? I said it requires some specific skills and ambition, that are hard/impossible to teach. Anyone can learn to write programs. Learning to write programs WELL requires the desire to do so, and probably a specific personality (mildly autistic/majorly masochistic) type and brain patterns as well. (Though the brain-pattern argument depends on the type of program. Obviously people tending more towards artistic stuff aren't going to be working on a pure number crun
Re:Yeah, offshore outsourcing (Score:5, Insightful)
Why?
The thing is, 'sending jobs overseas' is seen as negative. Why is that? Why shpould they be saved for US citizens?
If I fixed your job (and, if extended to everyone then everyone's job) for life, you would get no productivity increases. You would therefore get no pay rises. Where are the increases in revenue for your job if everyone is like you?
Research would achieve nothing, as if everyone is fixed, we'll never have anyone to increase productivity.
So... if you don't want jobs sourced overseas, then equally expect no change in job, no productivity increases, no economic growth.
Do not earn more than your father... be condemned to a life of what has been achieved before.
The shame is, economists post Ricardp have realised... IF YOU OUTSOURCE YOUR JOB TO SOMEONE WHO CAN DO IT CHEAPER (not only increasing their standard of living) YOU CAN DO SOMETHING ELSE EVEN MORE PRODUCTIVE (unless you are a leech upon your workforce and refuse to change). This ACCOMPANIED WITH DISCOVERY (research) results in ECONOMIC GROWTH.
Sorry for so many caps... just ppl either don't understand basic common sense or are so lazy they want to preverse their present position without thinking al all.
Re:Yeah, offshore outsourcing (Score:2)
Agreed. (Score:2, Insightful)
I remember back in the 80's every body who was working on the assembly lines making cars was freaking out because the jobs were moving to asia, namely, Japan. People thought the US would be owned by Japan in a decade.
I take two things from that experience. First, bitching about your job being lost to someone somewhere else for less is futile. It's gone, the company holds the keys to your job, not you. Corporate America cares only about profit and if you and your union job costs ten times what a worker
Re:Yeah, offshore outsourcing (Score:4, Insightful)
In an industry where you find it neccessary to have a room full of people scanning medical documents into computers - yeah, outsource that to some other country. It's difficult or impossible to find that many Americans willing to work even minimum wage to do that day in and day out.
But what about the recent examples wherein a bank has an older system and a team of people who have been programming it for thirty years? They realize that soon these people are going to start to retire and want things like retirement and so forth, plus they want increasing pay scales as time goes on. Instead, fire them all (lay them off) and outsource to India. You pay the Indian workers less and you don't have to worry about retirement benefits for the tons of people you just fired. This is what people are afraid of.
Plus the modded-down poster said "jobs that should be available to citizens of the U.S." - probably what he really wants to mean is that there are a number of jobs right out of college that can either go to U.S. Citizens or foreigners needing things like sponsorship. It seems like a bad idea to some to sponsor foreigners when so many U.S. citizens are without jobs at the moment.
Re:Yeah, offshore outsourcing (Score:2)
The offshore programming scares me. Another entire segment of American middle class is being wiped out. I actually am in favor of globalizing the wealth, just not "Harmonizing Down!" the way we're doing it now. And the execs getting grotesquely richer. Ah well.
Re:WE OWN THIS COUNTRY (Score:2)
And if you have made sure every job goes to an American since independence goes to an American we'd still have Americans doing menial jobs which have been outsourced to:
1. Machines (hang the engineers?)
2. Overseas (if someon in a third world country wants to do a low level job, let them, I'll do something more interesting/valuable).
If this were the yountry YOU propose, we'd have no economic growth, would still be living in wooden shacks, creating our own products which woul
Re:WE OWN THIS COUNTRY (Score:2)
You capitalize that clause, because the only circumstances you can see around "leaving the US" would involve dyspatriotism or dissatisfaction.
But I would truly enjoy opportunities to go to another country. Perhaps one that has less of a consumer-oriented society. If I could go somewhere that provided the basics at 1/100th of the base cost, I might be persuaded to go there, as easily as I might be persuaded to go to, say, the midwest. Who knows? Maybe parts of India are nice.
Re:WE OWN THIS COUNTRY (Score:2)
So, you became bitter and cynical because your stable life was taken away?
Your previous life only so existed because others paid for your products.
I live in a land of freedom and opportunity. A land built on enterprise, innovation and the success of a good idea. As much as corporates want to entrap those ideas, I will nev
Re:WE OWN THIS COUNTRY (Score:2)
They do not lose money! Why do they lose money? They sold it and made money at a level they were happy with. You bought it and later sold it at a level you were happy with.
No one loses 'money' - each buys and sells at a level that satisfies their risk tolerance. Do you think there is a fixed amount of money in the world? Afraid not.
Money:
Please forgive me as i rip your pathetic argument to shred
Re:Yeah, offshore outsourcing (Score:5, Insightful)
Political correctness is all well and good, but don't let it blind you to reality. I'm getting the bulk of my telemarketing calls from Newfoundland and India (try asking sometimes, before you hang up), and calls for support seem to be going out of country too. How much of the stuff you buy says Made In USA on it these days?
Of course the IT industry isn't immune. We ought to fix things by requiring companies who use foreign labor to pay equivalent U.S. for each overseas position into a fund used for improving living conditions in the countries these companies are abusing (or similar causes).
Re:Yeah, offshore outsourcing (Score:2)
Well, if we do that, then the US companies will go out of business as other countries' businesses will be operating at a much lower cost. You can't beat a free market. Just can't be done, and fighting with it will put your contry behind competing countries.
Re:You don't need to tell me... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You don't need to tell me... (Score:2)
>with 4%-6.37% increases every year.
Now, you are the one who chose to go to an expensive college. I don't think your backlash at the O.P. is at all reasonable.
Re:You don't need to tell me... (Score:4, Interesting)
I'll bet those guys are asking the same question you are, only they have families, mortgages and car payments.
Re:You don't need to tell me... (Score:2)
Re:You don't need to tell me... (Score:2)
I've been looking for a job for two and a half months (I know it's not long yet), ever since I was laid off (after 19 years of employment!)
Re:You don't need to tell me... (Score:2)
Of course, you probably wouldn't want to do them either, but they pay better!
Try UPS. Get paid to work out, AND they even have tuition reimbursement.
And some people have been known to work 3 jobs just to make ends meet. Of course, that would suck greatly, but you WERE concerned about HOW you would pay your bills. There are always options, and some of them involve flipping
Re:You're forgetting the main cause... (Score:3, Interesting)
However, he is in control of those bills that he writs and sponsors himself. If you think "the very rich" is defined by Bush II as someone who makes more than 50K, then you really need to get your head out of your *ass.
Bush is cur
Re:You're forgetting the main cause... (Score:2)
>at least 10 times that much.
But there are a lot of them. And they tend to participate in the political process.
If the rest of the people would genuinely participate in the political process (which STARTS with voting in EVERY election, but continues from there, into developing and maintaining relationships with those who represent you in government, and even, includes running for office yourself or getting behind a credible candidate who represents yo
Re:You're forgetting the main cause... (Score:2)
bush is not pandering the 500,000 a year folks. that is a flat out lie.
Then explain how the bulk of the tax cut goes to the very rich. Normal people like you and me get about $1000.
Re:You're forgetting the main cause... (Score:2)
Maybe because the "rich" - the top 20% of the individual earners in the country - pay over 65% [taxpolicycenter.org] of the income taxes collected each year?
If everyone has their taxes reduced by 10%, well, that means that someone who pays more taxes than you do will get more money back. If you compare the percentages, it's a fair deal. If you compare the scalar quantities that result from those percentages and start talking about "the rich" and "the poor", you'
Read this book. (Score:3, Informative)
Dolemite
______________________
Want the honest truth? (Score:3, Informative)
No shit.
Re:Want the honest truth? (Score:2)
No shit. Talk to ANYBODY in Austin and ask them where they were born. I'll bet you that same dinner and bottle of wine they tell you someplace else besides Texas. I miss Austin. But everybody from everywhere else moved in in the last 15 years, and ruined everything that was good about the place.