Paypal Grinds To A Halt 497
BillBrasky writes "After a 'Monthly Software Update', it appears that PayPal started having problems. There were reports all weekend of troubles, and as of Monday night here, I can't access it at all (connection time out). One user even reported that his PayPal Debit card was getting refused!" A message on the site now says the site is expected to be back at 8:10 PM PDT, not long from now.
It says (Score:5, Funny)
Re:It says (Score:5, Insightful)
1. The front page is LOADED with new graphics and text.
2. There's now a "Powered by Sun" icon on the site.
What I'm wondering is if PayPal didn't overrun their bandwidth with new graphics and pages while simultaneously trying to upgrade the backend systems. The "intermittent problems" might have been caused by such an upgrade. Then Monday hits and they haven't completed upgrading/stress testing the system. What happens? Nose dive!
If my theory is correct, we can expect the performance to slowly improve as PayPal gets more systems online. Also keep an eye on that front page to see if any sudden changes show up.
Re:It says (Score:5, Insightful)
I would hope we couldn't blame serving up static content as a cause; there are so many cache servers built for this task in 2004 that one would hope actual web servers never actually see these requests.
If my theory is correct, we can expect the performance to slowly improve as PayPal gets more systems online
Nah...if it's bandwidth-related, performance will take another hit as more systems come online and try to share a saturated pipe.
However, if the problems WERE bandwidth related, it should be easy for eBay to diagnose; just take a meter reading of traffic before the crappy performance and another after. Likewise, it should be easy for eBay to diagnose server performance problems - just look for the spike.
I think what is troubling to every PayPal user is not that PayPal/eBay is having problems, but that they appear to have no idea what is broken and no idea how to fix it.
Re:It says (Score:5, Funny)
If it wasn't bandwidth related before, it is now. Thanks Slashdot!
It's MY FAULT! (Score:5, Funny)
Guess they were depending on me to pay their internet bill!
Re:It says (Score:3, Funny)
hmm... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:hmm... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:hmm... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:hmm... (Score:3, Funny)
--Joey
Re:hmm... (Score:4, Interesting)
Whereas most banks will gladly take your money as long as it's legal, PayPal will shut you down if they don't like your politics.
Or so rumor [google.com] has it.
Re:hmm... (Score:5, Informative)
Actually so will banks. Barclays shut down the British Nationalist Party bank account fairly recently.
Maybe swiss banks don't care
Re:hmm... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:hmm... (Score:3, Funny)
And to top it off... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:And to top it off... (Score:5, Informative)
msnbc (Score:5, Informative)
msnbc also has an article about the outtages
effects on ebay share price tomorrow (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:effects on ebay share price tomorrow (Score:5, Funny)
Re:effects on ebay share price tomorrow (Score:5, Insightful)
While it may be a temporary glitch, there is no doubt that such an outage has a real financial impact - banking, which PayPal is to a degree, is based upon trust, and PayPal already starts in a precarious situation given that there are no branches to visit and limit options available outside of their website. This is the sort of thing that sends grandmas and grandpas away from that payment method for a while.
Re:effects on ebay share price tomorrow (Score:3, Insightful)
Why? real banks have outages too. (Score:4, Insightful)
PayPal in my mind has a better track record than most real banks I've used! As you say, they have to, but they also will not be penalized much for a small glitch like this.
They also have the advantage that there is NOTHING else like PayPal. I've looked at other options and there are none. So where are you gonna go? I've tried two auctions in the past that tried to use non-PayPay payments, and all I can say is - never again.
Awesome plan! (Score:3, Funny)
That was interesting... (Score:5, Interesting)
The first six or seven times I tried clicking through to this story slashdot told me "Nothing to see here. Move along." Problem in the subscription code?
Anyway this was bound to happen sooner or later. There's frankly no way to test large-scale use of a resource like that because in order to REALLY test it you have to exchange a lot of data with assorted financial institutions which will probably not be very forgiving about something like that. Paypal's never given me any trouble whatsoever and I think that not being able to use it for a day or so is acceptable. Not being able to access debit card funds could be a serious blow to someone foolish enough to store a lot of money in paypal, but otherwise it should have little impact.
PayPal and eBay constantly push the envelope (Score:5, Interesting)
After listening to the talk, one came away wondering how the site even worked at all. Every day, you are on the bleeding edge and every day if you have the slightest of hiccups, expect to have it covered in the Wall Street Journal the next day.
I don't know what they paid that poor guy, but it isn't enough. I'm surprised he still has all his hair and it wasn't grey.
Re:PayPal and eBay constantly push the envelope (Score:3, Interesting)
A famous question is
"How do you remove all of the directories named "TEST" from the repository?"
Understanding best practices, the answer has always been
"Can't we just hide them, version control is there for a reason?"
The head of their team then explained
"No, who would name anything TEST that they wanted to need"
For the record he clarified that
Re:PayPal and eBay constantly push the envelope (Score:3, Insightful)
PayPal has the task of linking transactions between users, and allowing users to create modifications or additions to them in real time.
These a
Re:That was interesting... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:That was interesting... (Score:5, Funny)
Why must it be a box?
Re:That was interesting... (Score:3, Funny)
Uhh, that's your problem. Paypal has NEVER been reliable, and I *never* buy from any site/person/whatever that uses PayPal. You need to get a real credit card processor, and stop complaining. It's like complaining that you run a gravel hauling business, your Honda Civic that you used for hauling your trailer full of gravel broke down, and gosh darn it, it shouldn't! If your business RELIES o
Re:That was interesting... (Score:5, Informative)
Paypal ripped me off of $500+ around 2 years ago.
[Rant Alert]
Story goes something like this. I sell a laptop to a buyer on ebay for $1100. He pays from a _Verified_ paypal account.
I had 300+ positives and he had 6, but thats besides the point.
THREE FUCKIN' MONTHS after the sale paypal sends me an email telling me the sale was paid for with fraudulent funds.
They reverse the charge, take the current balance of my paypal account, and freeze the account, which is now at negative $600.00.
I of course filled out the requisite "paperwork" with the USPS tracking numbers etc to which I shipped the laptop to the _Paypal Verified buyer_ at his _Paypal Verified Address_
Of course after THREE FUCKIN' MONTHS, USPS no longer has records of the package sent. And I as a seller have no legal recourse to pursue.
They continued harassing me via email and by phone. I explained politely to the customer service representative on the phone, the situation.
The conversation went something like this:
CS Rep: "Our records indicate that you owe the
amount of $600."
Me: "That is incorrect, my records indicate you
owe me $500."
CSR: "I have records of a chargeback of $1100 due
to the buyer using fradulent means of
payment"
Me: "I shipped goods to a buyer verified by you,
and I shipped to his paypal verified shipping
address, here's the USPS tracking number"
CS Rep: "The customer in question paid via
fraudulent means, you owe us $600"
Me: "What? you verified him, then informed me
3 months after the fact and you expect me to
to pay you $600 after you've already stolen
$500 from me?"
CSR: "Our records indicate an outstanding balance
of $600 on your account."
Me: "Give me my laptop back and we can maybe talk
about this $600 I supposedly owe you."
CSR: "Would you like to set up a payment plan?
otherwise we'll have to take this to
litigation"
Me: "Would you like to eat a dick? I'll see you
in court.."
*click*
Granted this was before eBay bought them, my
lesson was learnt. I will never again use Paypal or for that matter let anyone I remotely care about use their shady ass service.
Re:That was interesting... (Score:5, Funny)
s/500/300/
s/600/200/
s/
and then... what he said.
Re:That was interesting... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:That was interesting... (Score:3, Insightful)
They can sue me for all $200 I possess.
Are you part of the class-action lawsuit? (Score:5, Informative)
I'm not sure if your problems were in the right timeframe, but this probably applies to *someone* reading this.
Check here to see if it applies to you. [paypal.com]
Re:That was interesting... (Score:5, Informative)
It's worth UK PayPal users remembering that paypal.com/uk *IS* subject to UK and European regulation. Any problems through the UK site and you would have recourse through your bank, your card issuer AND the Financial Services Authority.
Best wishes,
Mike.
Re:That was interesting... (Score:3, Insightful)
Paypal is also doing online banking and handling payments on what seems like an unprecedented scale, very rapidly, and with just about every financial institution in the US. I know banks aren't exactly sitting on their thumbs, especially the larger ones, but they also have the luxury of being able to take a longer view of things than paypal which faces competitio
Re:That was interesting... (Score:5, Insightful)
On the upside... (Score:5, Funny)
hehe I'm a silly goose.
Woo hoo! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Those pricks (Score:3, Informative)
You can use a Paypal debit card to get cash out of your account, although there is a daily limit. Maybe once you surpass that limit you should consider getting your own merchant account though.
Down for the count (Score:3, Informative)
PayPal can't be down! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:PayPal can't be down! (Score:2)
Re:PayPal can't be down! (Score:3, Funny)
But don't worry, my friend (who just so happens to be a Nigerian Prince) and I can help you out of this mess. All you have to do is...
Re:PayPal can't be down! (Score:3, Interesting)
That explains those recent emails I received. (Score:4, Funny)
not a bank :) (Score:5, Funny)
The next time they get into trouble for not following banking rules they can say
"See, we're not a bank...banks don't crash"
Re:not a bank :) (Score:5, Insightful)
I have a bank run ccard/merchant acceptance interface. About every week I get emails with statements like "Unscheduled down time" or "Delay in payment acceptance" etc. The key difference is that the banks are entirely accountable and the transactions do actually go through ultimately. Furthermore, you have the ability to phone them or visit them personally should you have any issues.
Again, the key here is accountability.
PLD.
How much negative.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Eh? (Score:5, Funny)
I know we hate them and all, but why can't we take just a little bit of sympathy?
Feel much safer since I installed paypalbuddy.exe (Score:5, Funny)
Thats funny, I never had problems with my paypal account. I get emails all the time from them asking me to verify my account at secure websites like paypal.reallysecure.tk. Sometimes they even send me a utility, paypalbuddy.exe, to keep my computer secure. I feel a lot safer since I've installed paypalbuddy.exe, in fact I know that I'm safe because if I check my task manager I can see that paypalbuddy.exe is using 90% of my CPU to constantly encrypt my paypal traffic, even when I'm not at the computer! I forwarded this handy utility to my mother-in-law and she loves it too.
The only thing Paypal should really focus on now is training their likely outsourced software engineers in proper grammar. Samir is constantly sending me emails about my paypal account though for some reason he can never get some english phrases right. I guess its ok though, I cant expect the entire world to speak english, and I give him an E for effort, especially on those unique poems he attaches to the end of the emails...
Shall I share...
Capture the magic of the season,
Sit down, relax, and have trust in us.
The price of portability
upon Real Girls Business?
Thou must medicate thyself.
Credit where credit is due, this spam poetry [sperare.com] site rocks
Re:Feel much safer since I installed paypalbuddy.e (Score:5, Funny)
Interesting. I also forwarded to my mother-in-law, although I did not install it locally...
Nothing to worry about (Score:5, Funny)
There goes the whole economy... (Score:4, Funny)
No monopolies (Score:2, Interesting)
this is a valid use of government regulatory powers: NO MONOPOLIES, EVER
Hypothesis (Score:5, Funny)
PayPal has been having problems all weekend (Score:5, Informative)
By the way, don't trust PayPal's message that the site might be available at any specific time. They've been giving specific times all day today but for the most part, it's inaccessible through any interface... web front-end, payment processing back-end, instant payment notifications, debit cards don't work, etc.
You can read more about the trials and tribulations of this weekend's major outage from a developer's point of view at the PayPal Developer web forum [paypaldev.org]. There are a lot of unhappy campers there!
Um, yeah... (Score:5, Informative)
Regardless, we accept Paypal payments for our business. Didn't work all weekend...and today I kept getting errors (I think it was 30004) telling me to "retry" or "return to main page". Took a few retries, but I did get stuff done....such as transfering money out for payroll on Friday. Auction and storefront sales were down from lack of a payment service though. Debit card had activity over the weekend, so that worked fine.
Re:Um, yeah... (Score:3, Insightful)
You are a moron if you use paypal to run a business including the payroll, of all
Re:Um, yeah... (Score:3, Informative)
Paypal doesn't run the business, the owner of the company runs the business. Paypal is just one of many payment options we give our customers...and since a large portion of sales come from eBay, people find Paypal very convenient.
Payroll isn't run by Paypal...but in order to facilitate payroll, you must withdraw funds from Paypal. It doesn't automatically sweep into our local bank account like our Linkpoint/CSI ac
Priceless (Score:5, Interesting)
"When folks go to use their PayPal debit cards, the payment is rejected, but the charge actually goes through and PayPal is deducting the amount from their account"
Re:Priceless (Score:5, Interesting)
Come back in the morning, works fine. Two weeks later, have a negative balance because the 1st two transactions actually went through on their end.
It's a royal PITA to find the right people to talk to, the right forms to fill out
This is why.... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is why real banking institutions have such stringent operational guidelines set down my the federal government in regards to information systems. This should serve as a hearty wake-up call to a great many people that have fallen under the impression that Paypal is a "real" bank, when in fact they are not.
Re:This is why.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Paypal themselves don't want to be considered a real bank (and the government said they aren't, mostly because they don't physically hold your money), that way they are free from regulation.
Re:This is why.... (Score:5, Insightful)
PayPal 101 (Score:5, Insightful)
1) As soon as someone pays you, move ALL the money out of your PayPal account.
2) To pay someone else, have payment go directly from your associated checking account. There is no need to carry a positive balance on PayPal.
3) Don't get the goddamn DEBIT card.
BTW, it's 8:37PT and it took almost 3 minutes to sign on. My guess is that PayPal will be hiring soon.
DEBIT card probably for people rebuilding credit (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:PayPal 101 (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmmm...ever try online bill pay?
We did get the money back - 3 weeks later.
So what's the problem? If no one helped...how did the money get returned?
I agree anyone who ties their PayPal account to their main checking account is a moron. However, these days free checking accounts are available at almost any bank. Set up a dedicated checking account for PayPal at a local branch of your favorite bank and you're in business. Think of it as your own financial firewall.
advantages of Paypal not being a bank... (Score:5, Interesting)
There are a lot of people, for a variety of reasons, who have been screwed out of getting a bank account from a regular bank. Because of negative reporting on chex systems, they can't get a regular checking account at all.
In tandem with a savings account (which you *can* sometimes get even with a bad chexsystems report) and a paypal account, you have essentially the same services of a checking account.
I for one got screwed by my bank (5/3rd) after fraud hit my account and they refused to take responsibility for some items. Thanks to paypal I still can have checking account like abilities until I sue my bank.
Slow but working... (Score:3, Funny)
PayPal UK is regulated as a financial institution (Score:5, Informative)
In the US, New York State and Louisiana have imposed some regulatory requirements on PayPal.
If you lost money with Paypal between 1999 and 2003, there's a class action settlement. [settlement...yments.com]
eBay has their usual "Genuises" on it (Score:3)
eBay doesn't seem to have learned anything from these debacles, and continues to roll out unnecessary updates with inadequate testing, resulting in previously solid functionality breaking down. Whoever is in charge of update testing over there should be sacked.
I'm currently in the middle of 5 ebay transactions (Score:4, Informative)
TILT (Score:5, Insightful)
The slashdot effect? Not a drop in the bucket! (Score:3, Interesting)
A site I run has been linked by Slashdot many times - aside from the number of referrals in web logs and perhaps a few mbit spike in traffic, you wouldn't know it even occured.
PayPal is having much larger issues. I've experienced the same types of problems when doing larger upgrades - it's usually a single piece of code that went unchecked, and the odd user(s) that actually get caught in an untested (or improperly tested) segment of code are throwing the system for a loop.
Or, just bad performance planning. I'm not surprised - these things have to happen every now and then, they're quite unavoidable when you're dealing with often changes to an infrastructure with that many _DYNAMIC_ users, and so much _DYNAMIC_ data.
Regardless, it's a growing pain. I've been through a few of these on a 150 GB database with 2 MM users and 15 servers. PayPal is a lot larger, and they surely have much more difficult problems. Hell, if they have to do something such as change the way a single piece of data is stored, that means a lot of downtime (or slowtime) processing!
I'm sure they'll sort it out, unfortunately lots of people are losing lots of business in the process.
Troubling (Score:5, Interesting)
PayPal, which must deal handle millions of dollars a day, just goes down entirely. My real problem, though, is that they are not a real bank. (At least last time I checked) they are not FDIC Insured or anything. They could just never come back, and there's really not much anyone could do.
Not that I expect them to run off with my money. But in situations such as, say, the whole site going down, I like to know my money's in something that's insured.
Yes, FDIC insured (in a way) (Score:5, Informative)
They explain this in detail in a link off the homepage. [paypal.com]
It's not as good as putting your money in a bank (because your protection in case of PayPal's insolvency doesn't seem totally assured, just in the case of the *bank's* insolvency), but it's not totally unprotected.
Ahem... (Score:3, Interesting)
Others have said similar, I merely divert your attention to http://www.paypalsucks.com/ [paypalsucks.com]....
Just My Luck (Score:3, Interesting)
So what do I do, I re-subscribe through paypal today and I did notice it was going a tad slow, but I didn't worry too much.
To be honest I thought it was a recent FW upgrade on my router I did the night before acting up. I reflashed back a version and everything seemed ok.
Anyways the issue: I was wondering why my subscription to Slashdot still wasn't showing up. My other subscription was paid within the same minute as the slashdot one, and it went through fine. Weird. As of 9:55pm PST it still hasn't "gone through" (BTW I am confident that it will be fixed and I know it's not Slashdot's fault)
After finding out about the problem, I can only wonder if the Slashdot payment will even go through. My real concern is my bank account being screwed up, I don't want to be billed for $5 in an endless loop.
True story about debit card tonight (Score:3, Interesting)
Selected debit- transaction denied. Selected debit again- transaction denied. Selected credit- this time it went through. (Otherwise I was just going to pay cash.)
When I checked my account when I got home, the balance was negative- they double-debited the transaction.
Now, I'm not worried- even my bank has made an error or two like this, and a call to customer service tomorrow should clear things up. And even if it doesn't, it's $11.
But I do feel very bad tonight for people depending on the money in that account. They're in a lot of trouble tonight.
Lots of new job postings on PayPal (Score:5, Interesting)
Director, Software Infrastructure Architecture
Senior Software QA Engineer
Staff Software Engineer
Sounds to me like they're cleaning house after this one
Re:Lots of new job postings on PayPal (Score:4, Funny)
Possible Cause (Score:5, Interesting)
The "Check 21" Law (Score:5, Informative)
This is the "Check Clearing for the 21st Century Act", commonly known as "Check 21". Basically it allows a bank anywhere along the path from where the check is first deposited, to its arrival for payment at your bank, to replace the paper check with a front and back image scan. The law provides that your copy of this substituted check must be treated like an original check for the purpose of things like using it as a receipt to show you paid. For example, if your landlord failed to record the fact that you paid the rent, but deposited your check anyway, the law requires this substitute check image (printed back to you by your bank) be accepted as proof the check was deposited just as the original would be.
Banks are not required to do the image scan of checks, but they are allowed to do so. Banks are required to accept the image scan in place of those checks when the image scan gets done. If PayPal is allowing you to write checks against your account (but they would BE a bank if this happens, I'd think), they would have to update their software by October 28 to comply. More likely, if "Check 21" is an issue here, is that they may be adding some software to allow them to image scan checks made as payment to them. But the more they do like this, the closer they become to being a real bank.
When an image scan is done, the check can be processed much faster because it can now be sent to the account holder bank electronically. This is where the "float" many people depend on can start to disappear. OTOH, your bank may be able to get funds into your account for checks paid to you that you deposit equally faster. There is a possibility that PayPal was doing things that depend on the "float". Many business and people have been doing that for years. Practices will now have to change.
For more information:
Paypal Sucks (Score:5, Informative)
The site that scared me enough to take all my money out of paypal and never use it again. They're not a real bank and they're not held up to the same standard as real banks. Just read some of the horror stories in their forums.
--Smutt
Alternatives?! (Score:3, Interesting)
Really. For an individual or small business, you don't want high setup or monthly fees, and if you look in that league, who can beat PayPal in terms of transaction fees and ease of use?
I'd genuinly like to know.
Alternatives to Paypal? (Score:4, Interesting)
Paypal is an irresponsible sweatshop (Score:5, Informative)
Paypal recently relocated their stuff to Omaha, Nebraska. Why Omaha? Something like 60% of all VISA/MC transactions pass through First Data's bunker at 72nd and Pacific and a good portion of the other 40% goes through First National Bank's facilities downtown.
A fellow who used to work for me spent less than three months at Paypal as a Windows server admin. I forget the exact details but he said they wanted him to complete something like thirty projects a quarter and his impression was that eight projects of the sort they were asking would be a reasonable schedule.
I have heard that Paypal is pretty much a madhouse. Omaha isn't big enough to have a huge pool of IT talent and if they're grinding people into the dirt word will get around quickly. I predict you'll see lots of monster.com job posts for them as they poison their reputation here.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Steps to upgrade (Score:3, Informative)
2. It is too slow. Add a separate database server.
3. Still to slow. Add several http web application servers.
4. Add synchronization talk between web application servers to make sure no two different servers talk to one customer.
5. Add synchronization talk between database servers to make sure they all use the same database.
6. Release to public.
7. Something doesn't work. Switch on debug output and logging to full level.
8. Watch as all servers talk to each other over the underdimensioned intranet connections:
"Hey buddy, I feel so bad, so much load could you do this for me?"
"I'm sorry I've got too much work myself, but here, have some debug output."
9. Watch the intrusion detection system randomly switch off nodes because they showed unnormal traffic patterns.
10. get mentioned on slashdot. There's no such thing as bad publicity!
Powered by Sun = Site down (Score:3, Informative)
Coincidence, or did the sun manage to melt them, putting the bomb in dot com?
Re:Could this be a kernel error (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Could this be a kernel error (Score:2)
Then again, PayPal has had bad service from the start. Maybe this is poetic justice.
Re:Could this be a kernel error (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't say this lightly as I work in a bank and have to deal with it. The regulation of banks has worked well enough for long enough to migrate the impetus of many regulations away from "safety and soundess" (the two c
Re:Could this be a kernel error (Score:3, Informative)
They do try.
My last job before the sigified one was managing MIS Operations for a regional community bank. Now, this was during Y2K preparation, so it was somewhat atypical, but there is certainly a lot of FSLIC regulation in place to prevent, as you say, fuck-ups, be they server deployment or darn near anything else.
Now, the bank I worked for was also atypical (top in its class as far as compliance),
Re:Damn you Paypal! (Score:2)
Apparently this is affecting some people with PayPal debit cards far worse, though.
Re:Damn you Paypal! (Score:3, Informative)
Maybe I'll luck out and get the "Superman Bonus" where all the fractions of a cent are placed in my account. You'll know I did if I drive to work tomorrow in a yellow Ferrari :)
Re:Paypal=SESDL (Score:3, Interesting)
PayPal may occationally screw up, but they don't screw you over consistently like Western Union...
PayPal's server... (Score:3, Informative)
According to a quick telnet...
I hope that isn't true. That release is 2 years old. As per Apache's web site: "We consider Apache 1.3.31 to be the best version of Apache 1.3 available and we strongly recommend that users of older versions, especially of the 1.1.x and 1.2.x family, upgrade as soon as possible."
See: http://www.apache.org/dist/httpd/Announcement.html [apache.org]