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Torvalds Says 'Use KDE'

CmdrTaco posted more than 8 years ago | from the and-then-the-name-calling dept.

1469

An anonymous reader writes "Without tip-toeing around the matter, Linus Torvalds made his preference in the GNOME vs. KDE matter quite clear on the GNOME-usability list: "I personally just encourage people to switch to KDE. This 'users are idiots, and are confused by functionality' mentality of Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will use it. I don't use Gnome, because in striving to be simple, it has long since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do. Please, just tell people to use KDE." Also, "Gnome seems to be developed by interface nazis, where consistently the excuse for not doing something is not 'it's too complicated to do', but 'it would confuse users'.""

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KDE vs. Gnome. Ready...FIGHT! (5, Funny)

TripMaster Monkey (862126) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246014)


Let me get the ball rolling here...

All the Gnome users I've ever known fall into one of three distinct classifictions:
  1. They don't know about KDE as an alternative.
  2. They hold up their Gnome use as a macho Linux status symbol (when asked why they don't use KDE, they shrug and say, "Bah....I do all my work from the shell anyway...).
  3. They suffer from a deep-seated need to punish themselvs for some reason.

Discuss.

Re:KDE vs. Gnome. Ready...FIGHT! (5, Funny)

Geopoliticus (126152) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246041)

I must be number 3... and I do all of my work from the shell anyway. :)

Re:KDE vs. Gnome. Ready...FIGHT! (2, Interesting)

rknop (240417) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246074)

Moi aussi.

People see me doing that sometimes, and wonder why I'm going through so much trouble. I have a hard time convincing them that once you've learned it, the shell is far more efficient. (Especially since I type fast.)

I do have a handful of shortcut FVWMButtons on the left side of my screen (virtual screens, clock, xterm, emacs, etc.) for my most-used things, but, yeah, when I have to really do something with the filesystem, give me a shell I know how to use anyway.

-Rob

Of course... (1)

everphilski (877346) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246106)

I do 95% of my work from a shell too, but working in a windowing environment lets me tile shells, etc. I'm tailing output from some program while I'm editing code somewhere else, etc.

Personally I use KDE at work, although I'm a blackbox fan... haven't gotten around to putting it on my work machine. KDE's been good enough haven't been able to justify the time.

-everphilski-

Re:KDE vs. Gnome. Ready...FIGHT! (2, Insightful)

cryptoguy (876410) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246057)

A lot of people just use whatever the distribution installes by default.

Re:KDE vs. Gnome. Ready...FIGHT! (4, Insightful)

Ravalox (640829) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246083)

I respectfully disagree, I like KDE but there is absolutely a need for simplification in the linux world. I think Gnome was chosen for Ubuntu, for example, for very sound reasons. The notion that simplifying your interface being an idiot attractor is true, but that's not a bad thing. Idiots are people too, when we talk about our interfaces and what software we like we have to understand that we are perhaps an exlusive 8 percent of the world population, if that. There are a lot of people out there that haven't had the educational opportunities we enjoy. Giving them free software they can use seems like something we shouldn't sneer at.

Re:KDE vs. Gnome. Ready...FIGHT! (1)

r0dzilla (714082) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246110)

I try both Gnome and KDE whenever a new version comes out. I think Gnome has a much cleaner look, but the spatial thing sucks rotten eggs. With KDE on the other hand, the interface seems klunky at times, however things like KIOSlaves just rocks! Sometimes I wish we could combine them into either a GDE or a Knome... Seriously, for me I like Gnome's interface (with spatial turned off) better than KDE's, but I like what KDE has under the hood better than Gnome.

Re:KDE vs. Gnome. Ready...FIGHT! (1)

tehshen (794722) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246160)

Ever thought that other people might like different things from you?

FTW (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246030)

KDE FTW NUFF SAID KTHNXBAI

Well at least he didn't say... (5, Funny)

YodaToo (776221) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246035)

..."Use Windows."

Re:Well at least he didn't say... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246056)

..."Use Windows."

Or "use bitkeeper" *ducks*

Re:Well at least he didn't say... (5, Funny)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246175)

..."Use Windows."

No, but it's more important what he didn't say then what he did. I for one, can't help but notice how he left out the GNU in "GNU/KDE". Oh wait....

*duck*

He Should Have Said.... (-1, Troll)

millahtime (710421) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246196)

He Should Have Said.... Use OS X

The other alternative (5, Funny)

Midnight Thunder (17205) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246222)

Well this could be the other argument: "Gnome is for idiots, KDE is too, for that matter any windowing system is designed with idiots in mind. They are just dumbed down. My choice is CLI, there are so many programs written for it and it is not intuitive at all, just like a system interface should be."

Heh (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246039)

If Torvalds posted that here, he'd be at -1, Troll in under ten seconds. Unless, of course, he signed it with his own name, at which point it would be at +5, Ass Kiss.

Re:Heh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246146)

How come you got modded straight up to +4 inspite of posting anonymously linus?

Re:Heh (3, Insightful)

mspohr (589790) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246216)

If the average Slashdot drone troll posted this here, it would be modded -1.

However, people respect Torvalds and respect his opinion. He's not your average person.

Bye bye, freedom of choice! (-1, Troll)

tehshen (794722) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246040)

Don't forget to write!

Re:Bye bye, freedom of choice! (1)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246122)

Yea, because one guy has an opinion, development on all other interfaces will be shut down.

Linus taking a side doesn't mean a thing in the overall KDE/Gnome holy war, any more than if he'd taken a side in Vi/Emacs.

Re:Bye bye, freedom of choice! (2, Interesting)

tehshen (794722) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246229)

I didn't mean that. If Linus had said "Personally, I prefer KDE to Gnome" then we could all ignore him and use whatever desktop environment we liked.

However, he wants people to use KDE, based solely on personal preference, which is nothing more than zealotry "Please, just tell people to use KDE". Because, you know, people shouldn't even get a choice in the matter. It doesn't even affect him.

I'm not saying that people are going to use KDE more because of this, I'm just condoning his actions.

Re:Bye bye, freedom of choice! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246130)

Yes. If you don't do what Commissar Linus directs, then the secret kernel police will come and take you away.

Sod Gnome & KDE (3, Informative)

madaxe42 (690151) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246043)

Get E! [get-e.org]

Torvalds is right. Avoid GNOME use KDE! (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246046)

As a former contributor and developer on the GNOME architecture for many years I can say that GNOME is in no way ready to serve as the corporate desktop. There are simply to many issues inside and around the entire GNOME movement that should be mentioned here.

First of all GNOME has a very broken development framework with a lot of fragmentation. A lot of libraries are not working properly enough even in stable releases to give users a full working desktop environment. A lot of stuff are simply not working properly and a lot of stuff simply look too far disharmonic to be usefull. Not to speak about the poorly written third party applications that exists that don't serve any corporate needs.

From a developers view I believe that GNOME has reached a dead end where scalability isn't possible anymore. People have realized that with the C languge there is no progress and thus decided to code under Python, C++, Java, Ruby or MONO. But personally I believe that having a mature GNOME desktop these days require you to have Python, MONO, Java running next to your regular application, which makes it hard to have all of them incooperate correctly (to work correctly). This is not the problem of having different languages laying around or running in the background but more architectual nature as soon as it comes to bugtracking, feedback, expandability etc. Many bindings are not well implemented and have a lot of attributes not correctly defined which makes applications look and behave differently.

As example I always get back to the legendary Toolbar issues that I like to explain. I do explain it because it's the by far easiest thing people can test on their own system.

When looking at this legendary example picture:

http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screensho t34ji.jpg [imageshack.us]

You see a bunch of GNOME applications showing different types of Toolbars. I don't want to speak about the images inside the Toolbars but rather how they look. They all look differently, behave differently, react differently, some toolbars are higher than others (a few pixel) others have a drag handle, others show icons only, then others again show text below icons. There is no common approach of doing this correctly. Sure some people say these things are not important. But from a developers point of view - they are. It only shows in what bad shape GNOME really is even today with latest CVS you see the same issues still present. It should give the beginner and advanced users an impression what's wrong. A Desktop Environment should provide a consistent API and framework to do these things correctly. Please load up GNUMERIC, Abiword, Evolution, Evince and a few others and go through your "Menus & Toolbars" capplet (control center) and change around the values and you see that the majority of applications bundled in the corporate GNOME desktop do not react on these changes. Personally I consider these things to be a bug. I already reported many of these issues and recently my toolbar bugreport to gnumeric got closed as NOT A BUG with some random intransparent excuses why the HIG cant be applied to gnumeric. This is quite frustrating since the applications look bad that way (only the aesthetic view that GNOME always wanted to lay big values on). There are so many other areas like button padding, button padding between other buttons and and and.

It's a never ending story. Also I ask myself why tools like Evince or Epiphany (both part of the GNOME desktop) come with an own Toolbar editor while other applications don't support that. From a developers point of view this should be part of the GTK+ Toolkit and made available default to all apps or everything that uses the Toolbar.

Thats the big disadvantage of writing apps in C without proper object orientation (yes I know GNOME has some sort of object orientation). If we look over to KDE for example then we see that every application that uses a Toolbar (not all apps need one I know this too) share the same Toolbar object, if you change global settings then it automatically affect all applications (icons only, text under icons, drag handles etc.) the Toolbar object comes with an toolbar editor (to change icons, text under icons, draghandle, icon size etc.). This speaks about KDE's great architecture which is pretty well designed.

Again this is just a small example to not make the understanding overwhelming complex. There are many other issues (architectual nature) inside GNOME and it goes on in many areas such as gnome-vfs (which is quite broken, there is no progress information when copying files from FTP (deep directory structures with many files), aborting is nearly impossible and so on (not to speak about many other modules, but FTP is the one I know best) like copying 0 byte files over and so on.

Basic stuff still in stable GNOME that don't work reliable enough to get serious work done. People always come up with the same BS that GNOME is the light desktop, that it's so great, clean and so on, that it's the desktop to get work done. Evince crashing when selecting text, crashing on exit, gnome-print saving documents as *.ps files show other font or save corrupt data and and and.

But this is not the case to say the truth. As a former student of computer and economics science as well as I am now an IT-Project leader I depended on doing stuff for University such as drawing diagrams or UML stuff. I depended (since I was a hardcore GNOMER) on tools like DIA to try getting the work done. But DIA was a poor applications that gave bad results, felt really bad, saved corrupt data to disk (with lost hours of work). My university professor one day looked at me, and asked me whether I painted the use case diagram with a paint program. I told him that I was using DIA and I saw a smile on his face which he left uncommented afterwards.

Even printing doesn't work reliable in DIA, nor does it work reliable enough in other applications. I had to search for alternatives and landed on KDE using Kivio and Umbrello. These apps surely aren't the best apps existing, but they gave me more the feeling to get my work done. They worked, felt ok and the printout results was great. Not to mention that my learning curve was minimal since the apps reminded me quite a lot on commercial counterparts found on Microsoft Windows.

Like printing GIF images as black image (totally black paper printout), like not supporting printing more pages on one physical sheet (evince for example) and these things exists in gnome-print/ui and are an elementary thing of the stable gnome releases recently. I wanted to print a document with 120 pages in evince on 4 pages per 1 physical sheet, which should end up in 30 pages of paper. but after I came back from dinner I saw that evince printed it on 120 pages rather than 30 as I was assuming. These things can not be.

Same applies for Evolution which recently (before the 2.4.0 announce) started to trash all my sync files mf my local mailbox. It's quite frustrating and irritating to get dialogs all the time telling one that something is broken. same applies for the "get emails as soon as you start evolution" bug, specially if you use freemailers with timeout you keep stuck in getting dialogs all the time you start evolution telling one that it can not pop emails due to timeout of the mail isp.

Such things can not be in corporate desktops. If you really consider people and companies who spent a lot of money into their busiens to use GNOME then please make sure these issues don't exist anymore.

Continuing with my work. As I said I am an IT-Project leader now and need to deal with projects these days. Again using Planner as the only existing GNOME Project management software I ended up in frustrations since Planner is more like a toy than a mature application. Again I had to switch over to KDE to use Task Juggler for this kind of activity, simply for the fact that Task Juggler came quite close to MS Project, offered a lot of features and is free to use.

Same applies in many other areas comparing GNOME with KDE (Rhythmbox vs. amaroK) and so on. We see how quickly KDE applications progress and become mature. Now with better C++ support and more developers and users KDE becomes better and better. The applications are miles ahead of what GNOME has to offer and basic functions like sound, printing, good looks, consistency, integration and interoperability simply works. Sure KDE is far from perfect but chosing between these two desktops KDE simply wins in all areas.

And that's an important factor. Of course GNOME has the same choice to lead the desktops but sadly it hasn't and I am not willing to wait years over years only to see GNOME making less steps forward.

KDE is also not resource hungry or bloated as many people trying hard to make you believe. Who judges about resource hungry, who juges about bloat or too many objects on a toolbar ? What is the ones disadvantage is the others pet feature. Some people say that KDE is overengineered but I say that GNOME peoples lost focus. I recall when SUN started doing the usability studies some years ago. It didn't took long and the majority of people magically became all usability experts over night. And good applications became got turned nearly into a productivity barrier (if you ever happen to be productive with GNOME at all) I always find myself fiddlign around in things that simply don't work. And I keep spending more hours in fixing the issues rather than start using the Desktop to get anything done. Always when you quickly need something you end up being lost on GNOME and its tools.

Another big issues is trying to contribute to GNOME.

Look, when I started to help out GNOME around 1999 or so I defiantely didn't came and called the people "jerks". This has been grown out over the long time of six years. I have never been treated like a piece of shit as I was when trying to help GNOME to help shape GNOME, to be part of it. But I had to deal with ignorants, hardheaded people, egoists and a lot of people who are incapable to work together with others.

Even if you as developer want to contribute to GNOME you are under permanent attack, you receive nothing else than huge diffamation, attacks, namecalling, slandering and so on. This drives people away from contributing to GNOME.

Most developers around GNOME are some sort of having found themselves in "groups" they usually block every contribution from outside and usually declare valid and good stuff as stupid, silly or as troll attempt. This is quite frustrating for people who want to contribute. The attempt to contribute something towards GNOME is a very stone way and usually leads to frustrations at the end.

The best thing for contributors is to do the dirt work. The leftovers which the GNOME developers don't want to work on. Like writing documentations, doing the translations and so on. But as soon as it goes to normal bugfixes for bugs that are known for years these bugreports stay in bgo without attention. If you happen to have some time please head over to bgo and have a look on your own and you see how many bugs have been left there without attention. No comments, not even a feedback why the bug has been rejected or what was wrong with it.

Totally impossible is it as soon as you want to contribute some sort of features (because you reject working on the dirty leftovers or the simple patches that no one gives a f--k for). Working on features is usually the fun part of contributing. You are then directed to put your patches on bgo with comments like "we will have a look at that later" and then it stays there without any feedback for years. They are not interested to get new people helping that project.

Now I hope you may imagine why I don't have very good words left for GNOME. Sure not everyone is guilty not everyone is an ass or behaves like that, but you need to take my apology that I stopped separating the good ones from the bad ones. I am seriously tired doing this.

Also really frustrating is the heavy abuse inside the GNOME community, those whom we as members have elected behave like patrons on their positions. A lot of my friends whom initially tried contributing to GNOME has been scared away due to bad practices and always repeated attacks (its like a dejavu now). Most normal people never heard about these kinds of practices or can't imagine that this can really be happening - but sadly from my perspective this is the case.

Normal ordinary people who want to contribute or come up with an idea are treatened with disrespect and kicked with the bare foots. One day a friend of mine also a valuable member of the GNOME community came up with an idea (together with his girlfriend) to shave "GNOME GIRLS" he brought up that idea on the mailinglists (iirc) but everyone told him to go away, and that his ideas aren't great. But then some months later some girls from Red Hat have shown up with a brilliant idea (guess what, yes) to create "GNOME GIRLS" and voila they have been getting mailinglist acces, cvs access, all permissions granted everywhere and everyone called it a great ide. Why ? We talked about that for quite a while and concluded that this is due to the Red Hat position they keep wearing. Same applies with other companies that have been founded around GNOME, they immediately been granted warm seats in the foundation, in the board, while others (no company related ones) have been left out and ignored for years. How comes and how can GNOME still be called a community project and why do people still defend their practices ? GNOME totally lost it's roots and focus for users and users needs.

Well trying to come to an end here. What I want to say is that there are a lot of issues inside GNOME, it starts from many small and bigger bits of GNOME as desktop itself. From broken architecture, as well as not getting people on one table to have the work together (HIG is an example here) or to have simply basic stuff working good enough to get at least the basic things done. Over to the problem with the acceptance of people inside the community as well as the abuse everywhere.

That's why I recommend everyone these days to go with KDE. Their entire community is by far more friendly, the people are great, the developers are totally differently compared to the ones working on GNOME (its like day and night). Bugs are fixed immediately, patches are accepted. The framework (once you deal with it a bit more) is so great, things simply work. Sure sometimes problems occour on KDE as well, nothing is perfect, but the amount of problems is by far minimal if we consider how big that project is.

KDE from rough guess is 3 times bigger than GNOME (also a lot of translations stuff, source code). It's easier to build, it's all based on C++, no need to deal with different languages or getting upset or split an entire community because someone is using C, other C++, Python, Perl, Mono, Java (this will cause a lot of problems in GNOME camp too once the transtion to GNOME III starts. Already now a lot of people aren't really happy about all this). KDE works, offers great tools, looks mature.

KDE isn't much bigger than GNOME actually, on my system a normal KDE installation consisting of these tools:

qt-copy arts kdelibs kdebase kdeutils kdenetwork kdegraphics kdemultimedia kdegames kdepim koffice kdesdk kdevelop kdewebdev kdeedu kdetoys kdeartwork

Requires around 650 mb including headers and stripped binaries. The same amount I get with GNOME installed + Firefox + Evolution + headers etc. But I get much more tools for KDE. Sure I don't need all of them, but maybe I will need one of them one day and I would be happy if it's there.

Also whenever I hear GNOME devs talking about integration (like the evolution-data-server integration in the calendar/clock applet) I need to start laughing. It's no real integration, just some "hack" which was rewarded with money. Real integration is shown on KDE for example. Share of addressbook data across all applications (and it works today already). Oh and there is so much more.

Well I gave you an idea Novell. I really wonder who set that itch in your head to make GNOME the default. Was it a politics decision or a rational technology one ?

I am quite unhappy that all this politics stuff is being done on the heads of users, customers and people. Linux is a great System, KDE is a great environment many times better than GNOME and the momentum damage you caused with the recent announcements will stay in peoples head for a long long time. I feel sorry for your decision on making GNOME default regardless if you steer back now. Please consider again and listen to your customers. These are who feed your children, clothe your family and make you pay your rent and car.

I have no issues with GNOME, I do like GNOME and it deserves its place. But what I don't like is the bad practices around GNOME, e.g. the bad marketing, lying to their customers and then the agressive marketing that GNOME is so much ready for the corporate desktop. I really hate this. I hate being lied as customer and I hate it as developer who spent years of his time in GNOME and being not asked whether I like that GNOME is being sold that way.

Corporate have needs, they rely on working things, they spent a lot of money, they want the things to simply work and not toy around in things first.

To say the truth, all this talk about evil Microsoft (yeah there are people who try making a competition out of it) is pure bullshit in my opinion. Windows isn't a bad Operating System (regardless of the practices of Microsoft). It offers a lot of tools and its still being used everywhere and it still leads the desktop. I really dislike seeing GNOME as the default desktop in the Linux world because I know that things will not change. If it hasn't been changed by now then it probably will never ever change at all. GNOME has a long way to go, a very long way, and that long way only to catch where KDE is today, not to speak about catching up with Windows or even MacOSX. So please don't decide about political stuff, decide of what works. KDE these days is used by 2/3 of all Open Source Desktop users and these values (as often seen everywhere in polls) are speaking for itself.

Ali, stop trolling (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246163)

In case anyone is wondering, the parents post was brought to you by oooGalaxyooo, a well know Anti-Gnome troll who spends his days copy and pasting the exact same message into every discussion on the net that might be in any way related to Gnome.

Btw, he's the guy who brought you the wonderful successful GoneME fork of gnome, which is indeed gone now.

For more information, feel free to visit his hompage:
http://www.akcaagac.com/index.html [akcaagac.com]

Re:Torvalds is right. Avoid GNOME use KDE! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246178)

No, this has never been posted anywhere else [google.com] and you don't look like a troll. At all.

Re:Torvalds is right. Avoid GNOME use KDE! (2, Interesting)

sbrown123 (229895) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246219)

I have one problem, and its with your screenshot of a Gnome desktop and the comment about toolbars. There are two applications in there that appear to be both Mozilla and OpenOffice. Both of these applications, from what I know, do not use the Gnome widget sets in preference for their own. I believe you will have this same problem with these applications on other desktops like KDE. I know both running on Windows look different from the other Windows apps.

As for the various different programming languages on Linux I can say that I think people should use Mono exclusively. A Qt# would be nice to see (if its not out there already). And before someone goes bashing me about the .NET stuff, note that this is coming from a long-time Java and C developer. I think that with Mono, the Linux desktop can grow without people having to load 20 different runtimes to get app X to run. Hell, I'm running Windows XP right now and have Python, Perl, Tcl/Tk, Java, and the .NET framework on my box to run various applications. That is stupid. I think everyone should focus on improving Mono and adding language X in to it.

Also, Mono should stop trying to mimic Microsoft's implementation. Screw them. Make a break and improve. I played around with it a bit and found it silly that on Linux it was compiling assemblies into files with the extensions ".exe" or ".dll". To hell with crossplatform. We need one framework that can run assemblies from many languages.

I Prefer Aqua! (1, Offtopic)

waif69 (322360) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246047)

If Aqua was only available for linux... :-(

Re:I Prefer Aqua! (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246096)

It is, but its called Enlightenment on linux.

Re:I Prefer Aqua! (2, Interesting)

alexhs (877055) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246240)

> If Aqua was only available for linux... :-(

It is ! But it's called GNUstep [gnustep.org]

Dude, FVWM (3, Interesting)

rknop (240417) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246052)

I stopped using either a while back, because both of them required too many mouse clicks and interface searching to get them to do what I wanted, and to clone the setup from place to place. Give me an ASCII configuration file that I can just copy any day. No, it's not "user friendly," but it's Geek friendly. I can read the docs.

I've even started setting up new accounts on my machines using FVWM with a sane default configuration. People tend not to futz with their configurations too much anyway, and the startup time and resource usage is just much less without the overhead of KDE. And, what's more, these are all grad students in Physics, and I *want* them to get facile with Unix. They really ought to know enough Perl to read and write files and manipulate numbers, and know a little programming. Having to figure out text configuration files would be a good exercise, as whiny as it may make them....

Not for everybody, but certainly for me. As a geek, I much prefer FVWM to the overhead of Gnome or even KDE.

-Rob

Re:Dude, FVWM (5, Funny)

RobotRunAmok (595286) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246132)

They really ought to know enough Perl to read and write files and manipulate numbers, and know a little programming. Having to figure out text configuration files would be a good exercise, as whiny as it may make them....

Linux on The Desktop: Death by Evangelism.

Window mangers and desktop distinction. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246214)

In theory you should be able to use whatever window manager you want but I suspect they fsck'd it way beyond that point. Plus with the graphical configuration stuff, some developers figure that with a graphical interface they don't have to document the configuration file formats, which wouldn't be too bad except they like to change the names and locations of the config files from release to release. And more annoyingly, the graphical api's only do 90% of the job, so you have to go in an manually configure the last 10%, and remember to not use the graphical interface after that since it will delete your manual settings. E.g., try setting two ip addresses on a NIC, one static and one dynamic, the latter only to get /etc/resolv.conf set by DHCP configuration.

Re:Dude, FVWM (1)

deetsay (703600) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246233)

I used Enlightenment for a while but now I'm back to Afterstep again.

In defense of Gnome (3, Interesting)

ultrabot (200914) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246059)

Actually, Gnome works "well enough" these days. It does what I want it to do. This is on Ubuntu. KDE is arguably better, but I don't care much at this point, since Gnome is the better maintained one on Ubuntu.

I'd love to have Konqueror as a file manager, but also this is in lesser extent than previously. Gnome just doesn't suck anymore :-).

agreed (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246060)

i suprisingly agree with him.. i'm tired of the technology should be brought down to morons who can't read argument.. i'd rather have something more functional and efficient that i have to take some time to learn than the other way around..

Ah, the age-old battle (4, Insightful)

metlin (258108) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246061)

It depends on what you're using it for.

Are you a geek, who wants a productive interface? KDE is the way to go - actually, I prefer Windowmaker myself.

OTOH, are you an end user who wants a simplified UI? Gnome is the way to go.

Linus, obviously, is a geek and chooses the former. However, that does not make the choice universal.

That's the best part about Linux and Open Source in general, isn't it? The freedom to choose and use what suits you the best?

Re:Ah, the age-old battle (1)

hardcampa (533829) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246237)

Honestly, if you're a geek you definitely won't be using KDE.
If you're a geek you concider KDE to be bloatware.
I think Linus wants to promote KDE for the desktop as it's the most complete system there is for linux on the desktop.

Having said that, I'm using Gnome anyway as I really don't like the big borders of KDE and the teletubby lookalike themes available for it.

Havoc's Response (5, Informative)

chennes (263526) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246062)

Gnome developer Havoc Pennington's response [gnome.org] points out that "reducing complexity" was not, in fact, the reason the particular dialog in question doesn't have all the options Linux wanted:

"Just for the record, since I made this decision I can tell you that 'might confuse people' was not the reason. More evidence for my point that 'might confuse people' is the reason made up by others, not the reason given by the decision makers."

Which is not to say that Linus is wrong (in the e-mail he writes that "If this was a one-off, I'd buy it. But I've heard it too damn many times. And only ever from Gnome.") -- I'm not a big fan of Gnome's lack of features (at least as compared to KDE), but it's not like anyone on Slashdot really conforms to the "average computer user" concept. And Linus surely doesn't either. Maybe Gnome is better for Mom and Grandpa. I'll stick with KDE, myself.

Nat's response (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246227)

Yes, some GNOME developers are self-appointed control freak antifeature
nazis who've stripped functionality in pursuit of some theoretical "non
geek" user who does not exist, thereby crippling their software.

And probably some KDE developers are feature sluts who never saw a
checkbox they didn't love, exposing users to all kinds of broken
features.
from this post [gnome.org]

sighs

Re:Havoc's Response (1)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246239)

And Linus surely doesn't either. Maybe Gnome is better for Mom and Grandpa. I'll stick with KDE, myself.

I don't even know if that point is valid. All of my non-geek friends that I've converted to Linux are using KDE. It works very well for them -- in most cases right out of the box.

If people can learn how to use Windows then they can learn how to use KDE or GNOME. I personally use KDE because I think it's more powerful and it's the only one still shipping with Slackware (yep, I'm one of those). In fact I lost a lot of faith in ever using GNOME when I saw how many packages I would need to install just to get GNUCash working. Perhaps that isn't fair (KDE has almost as many packages and GNUCash is close to becoming abandonware), but first impressions are everything and mine was somewhat negative.

I'm also not a very big fan of the GNU zealots and their crusade. I just want something that works and that I have control over. I don't really care of it's an Apache license, BSD license or GPL. I suspect that most people don't either.

Gnome is great (1)

SweetZombieJesus (788843) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246064)

Gnome is great BECAUSE it's simple. The average linux user isn't a moron, so sure, KDE isn't too bad, but if you want to get a wider user base, you'll need to attract some of the not-so-bright users out there. If that's the case, GNOME is perfect. The only GUI I like better is the Mac OSX.

Re:Gnome is great (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246155)

The trouble is, that a good user interface should grow with the user.
It should be easy to get started, but never limit the user - everyone is different, and arbitrary limitations chosen because to do things otherwise would "confuse the users" are almost certain to frustrate and annoy _everyone_ at some point, because each not-so-bright user has at least one thing they want to do which is not possible due to being considered "too confusing".

WooHoo!!! (0, Troll)

FudRucker (866063) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246065)

Kudos to KDE!!!

in your face Gnome!!!

Thanks Linus.

Linus, Thank You for Sharing (0, Troll)

Andy Tai (1884) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246072)

You are an expert in operating system kernels. Please keep to what you do best. Users will vote with their own desktop. There is no need for you to teach people what GUI and desktop to use.

Re:Linus, Thank You for Sharing (2, Insightful)

adamjaskie (310474) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246206)

"Users will vote with their own desktop."

Ugh. You mean one will 'win' in the end, and we will get "one desktop to rule them all, one desktop to find them"? No thanks. Give me choice. I, for one, use neither KDE nor Gnome.

Re:Linus, Thank You for Sharing (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246235)

You are an expert in operating system kernels.

I wouldn't go that far. Not to belittle what he's accomplished (far more than I am capable of), but the amount of code written by Linus in the Linux kernel is very small these days and most of that is stuff leftover from his early days in the mid 1990s. At that point he was frankly nothing but an upstart computer science student who wanted to write his own kernel. The community support and open source nature of the license he used is what ended up developing Linux into a usable system today.

Re:Linus, Thank You for Sharing (4, Insightful)

molnarcs (675885) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246238)

You are an expert in operating system kernels. Please keep to what you do best. Users will vote with their own desktop. There is no need for you to teach people what GUI and desktop to use.

Yeah, well, he didn't make an announcment or a press release you know... He voiced his opinion on a mailing list - and I think Linus is pretty good at that :)

Incidentally, I had exactly the same experience. I migrate users to free software, and we offer two choices: FreeBSD backend, Kubuntu desktop. Why? The same reasons he cites. In the past two years, we heard a lot of "usability" noise from GNOME devs, and imho they are all bogus. Why? Because people throw around words like "usability" too easily, leading to circular or unsubstantial arguments, while real usability studies are not conducted at all. I haven't read a serious usability study for a long time. (maybe this will change with openusability and all). And no, I don't consider a study conducted with people who are absolute computer illiterate (not knowing that the right mouse button is good for something) representative. They are a very specific subset of users, they are NOT the majority, and making design decisions based on experiments conducted on this very small subset of the userbase is WRONG. That is Linus' point. Is he politically correct? Of course not (" This "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality" mentality of Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will use it.")

My girlfriend is absolutely computer illiterate: she thinks (well, thought) that Office is the OS that runs on his laptop. Being lazy and all she often sits down to my computer (instead of opening her laptop) to browse the net. Sometimes she doesn't even notice that instead of firefox, she is using konqueror. There is a small set of functionality that users expect at specific areas of your screen: first buttons should be back and forward, they expect an input field for URLs at the top, maybe a google search bar... and that's it. If they are there, they are not really "confused" because there are additional buttons (kget, print, even cervisia) to the right side. They don't even notice it. It is the same with the file dialog: were users really bothered by the input field? I very much doubt that - and just like Linus, I was not aware of ctrl + L until someone told me here on ./. And in the past years, I hear one bogus "usability" claim from these so called "usability experts" after another (spatial nautilus anyone?) No evidence, no empirical study, just "we say so as usability experts" with some outlandish theory to back it up... so yeah, I think he is right on spot (and yeah, yeah, we know, diplomacy is not his forte).

screw desktop environments! (1)

bersl2 (689221) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246084)

Fluxbox all the way.

Torvalds farts (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246085)

slashdot reports.

rude (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246086)

Torvalds is out of line.

He does have a few good points - but seriously, he should really consider to kick the assh*le factor down a bit.

Torvalds is 'out there' (4, Insightful)

amightywind (691887) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246087)

Linus is increasingly 'out there' in his hyperbolic statements. First the BitKeeper fiasco, now the start of a new Gnome/KDE flamewar. Ever read his daily postings on kernel trap? They are obnoxious. I am surprised the kernel effort holds together as well as it does. I personally take his statements on Gnome as anti-advice. He is becoming a most unsafe guardian. Can anyone imagine who would lead the kernel effort if Linus was shoved aside?

Translation: Torvalds is acting like a 13 year old (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246157)

He's not really out there so much as acting like a packet kiddy on IRC who thinks he can bully everyone.

Re:Torvalds is 'out there' (2, Insightful)

millahtime (710421) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246177)

you are going to completely get moded down here. Not because you may not be right, but because Linus is worshiped here like a god. Many people here follow him like sheep.

On an interesting note, I have read that the development of Linux compares more to the development of Gnome than KDE so this is suprising.

Power Corrupts and Absolute Power Corrupts Aboslutely. With Linus heading the Linux community and many people view him like a 'god' how big is his head these days?

Re:Torvalds is 'out there' (4, Insightful)

webwalker (15831) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246189)

I've been noting it over a about a three year period. His early humility that many found attractive in a leader has given way to the hubris typical of someone like RMS. (Smarts have nothing to do with it; they will only get you so far.)

I've used KDE and GNOME and presently use GNOME at home and at work because it meets my modest needs. Perhaps KDE has improved drastically since I used it in the SUSE 8 days; then it was so unstable I could cause it to crash by staring at the screen too hard. GNOME is more bloated than I'd like, and occasionally wonky if you are the type that wants to hole up in a dark closet, under a blanket and "play with yourself", reconfiguring your desktop repeatedly because you don't have any real work to do. If I leave the config alone, it is stable and doesn't give me any grief.

Perhaps I'll take the plunge and switch to KDE when the next Ubuntu rolls. But it would be a shock for my wife, who I have finally gotten broken in to GNOME. She operates in both the Windows and GNOME desktop environments, and doesn't have to (and doesn't WANT to) drop to the command line in either.

Re:Torvalds is 'out there' (2, Insightful)

110010001000 (697113) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246194)

Its called 'ego'. It occurs frequently when you are only surrounded by people who only tell you how great you are and worship at your feet. Typically what happens is that the person starts believing that, and becomes more and more obnoxious and less useful. You see this happening frequently in the tech world: look at people like Ellison, Ballmer, Jobs. They all think they are the saviour of tech and know the "one true way" to do things. Eventually they become comical shadows of the people they once were.

Great but.... (5, Funny)

Rotten (8785) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246089)

I do all my stuff in the console anyway....wich shell does linus recommend?

Re:Great but.... (2, Funny)

Scoria (264473) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246136)

Emacs.

With an ASCII desktop background.

Re:Great but.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246165)

after his comment about gnome...


he obviously uses bash

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week. Enjoy the salad bar and be sure to tip your waitress.

Re:Great but.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246202)

Well, duh!

It ought to be obvious, Gonads [wikipedia.org] , of course.

Good reason to use GNOME, then (4, Insightful)

munehiro (63206) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246092)

I think Torvalds is the prototype of power-user.
A large part of gimmicks and interface nazism in today interfaces aims at the average or lower-than-average user. As a long time kde user switched to apple, I quickly realized that most of the use-cases I was used to were difficult to obtain with the OSX interface.

Is that a real problem? Dumb people want dumb interfaces. Smart people want smart interfaces. Give a dumb interface to a smart guy, and you obtain the Torvalds situation. Give a smart interface to a dumb guy and all you'll obtain is whining about its complexity.

Anonymous (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246093)

If J Random Anonymous guy posted a similar message to slashdot/his blawgh/etc, he would be ignored or marked as a troll and flamed crispy.

Is there any reason to treat this differently?

Now I want to use GNOME (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246097)

I'm a computer (software) guru, and sort of hate computers. They don't work, and often suck up my time with config issues and headaches when I'd rather be doing something that isn't pointless. Ok, maybe I don't hate them, but I'm offended by how ugly the experience is.

Most people want their computer to work a lot like their car or TV. Hit the button, get the content, do the job. This post makes me want to use GNOME.

"Don't make me think!" (5, Interesting)

MarkEst1973 (769601) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246098)

Don't Make Me Think! [amazon.com] by Steve Krug is an awesome book that all software developers should read.

The goal is simplicity in all things. Someone shouldn't have to think about what is going on, it should be obvious.

The most interesting thing about that book is that the author applies the same principles he espouses for websites to the book. The book is very easily digestible. So, if it works for the web and it works for the book... what else can it apply to? If you follow this train of thought to its logical conclusion you'll realize it applies to lots and lots of things: your code, desktops, phone VRUs, brochures, etc.

Linus is a smart guy and I respect him, but the goal is simple.

Linus doesn't deal with the same level of users (2, Insightful)

nlinecomputers (602059) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246099)

I run my own computer business and supporting idiot users is something I must do everyday. I prefer KDE but I think many users can benefit from gnome. I think many can use a Mac easier then Windows. There is merit to having a GUI that is KISS.

What's wrong with GNOME anyway? (2, Informative)

farmer11 (573883) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246100)

I've used both GNOME and KDE, but I decided to use GNOME. Been using it with Fedora Core 3 for over a year now and it works just fine. What's this big problem with GNOME anyway? My 2 biggest complaints are lack of a "show in groups" in the nautilus file view and closing multiple instances of the same program from the taskbar (there's no close all, you have to click close on each one).

My personal experience using Gnome and KDE... (2, Insightful)

Vexler (127353) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246101)

Gnome has always seemed to me to be a UI made to look excessively [fill in the blank]: Cute, shiny, hiding the ugly (but important) functional details underneath a glossy appearance. I started using Gnome initially when I didn't know about KDE. I switched over to KDE when I realized that KDE gives me more flexibility to customize the UI to my heart's desire, whereas Gnome is starting to look more like what Windows would have looked like had Bill Gates ported that UI to run on *nix platforms.

Alternatives? (2)

BrknSoul (653291) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246104)

Blackbox/Fluxbox anyone?

Re:Alternatives? (1)

10Ghz (453478) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246147)

GNOME and KDE are full desktop-environments, whereas *Box is just a windowmanager. So they are not alternatives to each others. While other might do with just a windowmanager, many people want a complete solution.

From TFA... (5, Funny)

The Amazing Fish Boy (863897) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246107)

"Please, just tell people to use KDE.

"Use vi, too. And vote Democrat. Oh, and cats are better than dogs. You know what else? Abortion should be legal. So should euthenasia. And as for toast? Butter side up!"

Torvalds no longer represents Linux as a whole. (4, Insightful)

Scoria (264473) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246109)

From his message:

it has long since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do.

Everybody is entitled to his or her opinion, but Linux has grown beyond the scope of "just" Linus Torvalds. The freedom of choice that we enjoy as users of the operating system is among its finest attributes.

Is it possible that Gnome and KDE are simply designed for different audiences? Newbies and other users may enjoy the more straightforward approach that the Gnome developers strive for. Slightly more advanced users such as Linus may prefer a different UI. (I kid, I kid!)

Inevitable (2, Insightful)

BenjyD (316700) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246114)

I was wondering how long it would take for this discussion to come up on Slashdot. It's noteworthy really only because Linus comes across as a 13 year old arsehole in almost all of his messages: if they hadn't been written by "The Linus Torvalds", I doubt people like Nat and Havoc would bother writing such well-thought-out replies to such unpleasant, ignorant flames.

A fork in the road... (3, Interesting)

cam_macleod (59140) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246116)

Interesting. 'Interface nazis' (oh look, it's Godwin's Law already) brought consistency to the Mac platform and the Windows platform, and to be honest, that encouraged a lot of success there. Yes there were other issues, but consistency shouldn't be ignored. Additionally, GNOME is getting a lot of play on Ubuntu and Fedora desktops. Consistency breeds ubiquity?

One other thought: maybe this can be a strength of Linux. GNOME takes the intro/simple desktop crowd, KDE takes the ultra-config-alicious crowd. We can start saying things like "Start out with GNOME, but if you feel like a little more control, just check the KDE box when you log in."

What about Apple? (3, Interesting)

chunews (924590) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246120)

You want to talk about "interface nazis", talk about Apple. There's nothing wrong -- indeed, it may be a great benefit -- with being rigidly inflexible when it comes to understanding HCI (human computer interaction - is that a term used anymore?) and interface design.

Gnome's problem is that, well, they don't have a usable interface design to stick with in the first place. This goes back as far as 2000 - "systems administrators still struggle to install applications on Linux and that antiquated versions of Gnome, a graphical-oriented user interface for the operating system, continue to ship with different distributions of Linux" "http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/st ory/0,10801,54030,00.html [computerworld.com] "

He's right, you know (5, Informative)

Tom (822) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246127)

In 1998, I was a very active participant on the Gnome UI mailing list. In fact, the very first Gnome User Interface Guideline was in part based on my proposed one (google for "Rogue GNOME style guide" if you care about the details).

Two things shocked me back then, and from Linus comments it appears that neither of them have changed.

One is that Gnome has a ton of great contributors - and just as many who are not as great. Unfortunately, in areas where the matter is more discussion and consensus based and you can't prove your point by just coding it, the vocal trolls crowd out the valuable contributors.

Two is that within those who contributed the the UI discussion there was a surprising lack not only of experience in the HCI field (ok, I had just started out there myself) but also a strong resistance to pick up the vast literature available or trust in actual end-user studies.

The last was what caused me to quit. How can you design a user interface without talking to the users? You can't. Anyone working in HCI knows that. Assumptions == Disaster

Come on torvalds (1)

exosyst (887386) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246134)

I sometimes wonder if Linus just makes these kind of statements to mix things up a bit. KDE and GNOME have made some great leaps and bounds towards a useable desktop in the past 5+ years. Does it really matter? It's not as if one app can't run under the other? I personally like how clean GNOME feels, but I also appreciate that KDE is a great desktop environment as well, especially for people coming from a windows environment. Surely this is just sparking debate, ah bring back the ol Vi versus Emacs debates!

Interface Nazis, meet the Grammar Nazis (1)

digitaldc (879047) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246137)

Also, "Gnome seems to be developed by interface nazis, where consistently the excuse for not doing something is not 'it's too complicated to do', but 'it would confuse users'.""

The Grammar Nazis are keeping a close eye on this instance of 4 sequential punctuation marks.
The Interface Nazis are concerned that their mission may be jeopardized.

Linus != normal user (1)

jrexilius (520067) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246138)

Well... I have to say, I understand his feelings but I personally don't want lots of functionality from my windowed environment (just give me an xterm and vi) and I know lots of other non-tech users who are effectiveley idiots when it comes to computers.

Truly I think Icewm or Xfce are better altogether, or some other minimal but am too lazy to change default of ubuntu (current desktop choice).

Why I use Gnome (4, Informative)

The Bubble (827153) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246143)

Typically a user of the SuSE distribution, I have had the opportunity to use very good implementations of both KDE and Gnome. I have no qualms with saying that KDE has some nice applications (AmaroK stands out). In fact, at one point, I was using KDE because Nautilus could not interface with a specific BSD SFTP server, while Konqueror could; but when I figured out how to do it, I switched back to Gnome. I like Gnome because it feels _designed_, whereas KDE simply feels like a hacked~together copy of Windows. Granted, there are obvious differences, and even improvements, but, while individual applications in Gnome may be behind the similar applications in KDE, I see in Gnome to be something far greater than what KDE will be. I use Gnome because of the future I see for it: I want to be a part of what gets it there.

I completely agree (2, Interesting)

RoLi (141856) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246151)

GNOME is made by people who try to be like Apple, however that doesn't work because:

  • Apple has a damn fine marketing department. Even such horrible usability blunders like the puck-mouse were sold as great usability - and some people bought it. Hell some people even think that Apple is always right about usabiltiy (and the Gnome-guys seem to be like that)
  • Apple is actually creative and quite often they do have something first. Gnome only copies from KDE and Apple or they do something with greatly reduced functionality (like their small file selector) to be "unique".
  • Those people who like dumbed down interfaces may run a Mac but are pretty unlikely to run Linux in the first place.

My girlfriend (with absolutely no computer knowledge whatsoever) can use KDE just fine, I really don't know what GNOME is trying to accomplish.

Once again: Linus is not God! (4, Insightful)

grasshoppa (657393) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246152)

So stop taking what he says as gospel. Yes, he is incredibly intelligent. And yes, he has a very good grasp about what's going on most of the time.

However, this is the same guy that got upset at the Samba guy for reversing bitkeeper.

I'm not arguing with his statement, btw. I've always liked KDE better than gnome. What I am saying is let the poor man have his opinion without starting a flame war.

I'm stunned (1)

$RANDOMLUSER (804576) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246154)

This is the first time I've found myself agreeing with Linus word-for-word. No "buts", "ifs", "except fors" or "maybes". He's enumerated everything I've said about KDE over Gnome, but that doesn't mean that KDE is perfect, either.

Linux Matures. Congratulations. (1)

mumblestheclown (569987) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246161)

This 'users are idiots, and are confused by functionality' mentality of Gnome^H^H^H^H^H Linux is a disease.

In all seriousness, as a long time Linux critic (mainly for reasons related to immaturity on a number of fronts, technical, philosophical, marketing, usability, and otherwise), I applaud this statement. Really. Hopefully "that Torvalds said it" will mark some sort of turning point in the Linux world in general towards the realization that usability and design matter, and that the CLI (for example), no matter how fast and effective in the hands of a highly experienced, frequent user, is the antithesis of usability.

Metacity (2, Interesting)

LeninZhiv (464864) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246164)

For me, Gnome has been offcially hijacked by the suits ever since they switched the window manager from Sawfish to Metacity--very symbolic the move from a fun scriptable-in-Lisp WM to the most staid and prim window manager around.

It's for the best, I guess, since some kind of boring desktop is needed for corporate adoption of Linux. When you think about it there was bound to be a split between those who need a highly standardised environment (for tech support and the like) and people using GNU/Linux as their personal desktop, who want to be able to customise everything and have lots of little amusements. So although I much prefer GTK to QT, I'm going to have to agree with Linus and suggest that people who are not big businesses but just ordinary computer geeks should probably just use KDE.

The biggest problem with GNOME (0, Offtopic)

s1ashd0twh0r3 (936321) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246166)

Who the fuck told these idiots to pick a big, ugly (and probably smelly) FOOT as their logo?

Believe it or not, there are many people who don't like looking at feet, and the last thing we'd want is to be staring at a stupid-looking foot all day on our computers.

They might as well adopt the GOATSEcX picture as their logo...

Will this have any impact? (1)

DocOmega (876655) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246168)

It would seem to me that users willing to choose Linux over Windows (or even OSX) are savvy enough consumers to be able to choose their desktop environment. I don't think we need to be told what desktop to use - we seem to be making good choices by ourselves already!

Gnome is sliding... (0, Flamebait)

Noryungi (70322) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246169)

This reminds me of the hoopla that surrounded Patrick Volkerding's decision to drop GNOME from Slackware Linux. Now, Patrick is followed by Linus. Frankly, even though these are personal choices, it's really bad PR for GNOME. I think they need to get their act back together, pronto.

As an aside, I hate both GNOME and KDE. I use XFCE or fluxbox exclusively on the machines I use. That does not prevent me from using the best applications and fluxbox in particular is a major productivity booster.

KDE SUCKS (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246170)

IT really SUCKS, use GNOME instead

I have to agree with Linus (1)

cyclocommuter (762131) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246188)

Using GNOME feels like a step backwards in time with it's quirky and limiting interface (for experienced/power users) that aspires to be Mac like.

IMHO, it is time to focus on one UI (KDE) and a dozen distros at most with a unified GUI driven software update/upgrade utility. Users should not be forced to use the command line for updating / patching the kernel, video drivers, etc. Only then will there be hope that regular users will start adopting Linux and Open Source en masse.

KDE devs speaks up for GNOME! (4, Interesting)

Balinares (316703) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246197)

I was pleasantly surprised to see KDE developpers rally to GNOME's cause [kdedevelopers.org] , or at least, advocate the use of GNOME for those for whom it works, regardless of their own opinion. Both DEs are there to stay and the sooner people accept this, the sooner we can build a strong integration layer and move on toward world domination. (Which is why the GNOME people really should get rid of Ximian and its DE fundamentalists if they want to make any progress, by the way -- at least until Ximian gets out of their corporate-love funk and re-learn the OSS virtues of collaboration...)

Check out Jeff Waugh's reply (4, Informative)

Andabata (778566) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246199)

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-Dece mber/msg00027.html [gnome.org] Just a sample: We're not aiming for "powerfully extensible". We're aiming for "Just Works". Some people will hate that. Some will love it. Personally, I'd rather have passionate users, lovers and haters, than be than average and ignored, and I think you'll find most GNOME developers feel the same way. Personally, I think Linus ought to know better by now than put out a self-centered post like that. There are more users in the world than just geeks. Most aren't geeks, in fact. For Linux on the Desktop to survive beyond the lifespan of its proponents, it needs to acknowledge that, not fall trap of intestinal power struggles.

Thank goodness (2, Funny)

omeg (907329) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246204)

Thank goodness. Maybe now the Gnome devs will figure out that they need to stop assuming that every user is an idiot; maybe they'll actually put good and inituitive features in their file manager now that Linus has said this. I personally don't like KDE's interface too much, but Gnome is what makes me want to bomb the Gnome dev mailing list with reports on its shortcomings. Too bad I don't have the time or will to actually do this.

Is this the same Linux Torvalds... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14246205)

...that uses an Apple Mac (with a similar K.I.S.S. UI approach to Gnome). Apart from his kernel work, this guy is proving to be more of a tit every day. He should leave comments on UI design to people with some sort of clue.

Not really a cogent argument (4, Insightful)

DrXym (126579) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246209)

A clean and simple desktop isn't just for "idiots". Personally I like a desktop which puts 95% of the functionality that most users are ever likely to need in front of them and hides the rest. If I as a power user (which I am) absolutely positively need to do something not in the UI I can simply drop to the command line or even write my own power tools for the job.

KDE is too keen to put every single bloody option whether advanced or not straight in your face, rendering it a pain to find the simple settings. Not only that but the defaults are horrible including the single-click-to-launch paradigm. I spent a good while looking to change that behaviour, foolishly thinking it might set be somewhere desktop prefs which it isn't - it's in the mouse settings. On top of that, you only have to look at Konq or KMail and you'll see six or seven menu items in a row starting with Configure.

The one thing you can hand to KDE is that it is consistent, but it sorely needs to be streamlined. It's not hard to see why enterprise versions of Linux use GNOME - it's so much simpler and cleaner. I truly expect that supporting 100 KDE users would be significantly more work work than 100 GNOME users.

Undo moderation (0, Offtopic)

Greger47 (516305) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246217)

N/T

Thank you, Linus (1)

Chris Pimlott (16212) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246223)

... for getting getting the invokation Godwin's Law [wikipedia.org] out of the way.

Yes, especially the File dialog (1)

gullevek (174152) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246224)

I really hate that "click" around thing in Gnome (I have it in gimp and sometimes when I use gnom-editor). In KDE apps I just type in the path and thanks to autocomplete I am really fast to arrive where I want to go.

Dear Slashdot Readers (1)

webappsec (854813) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246230)

Your overlord has spoken....

Nat Friedman's follow-up (5, Informative)

wild_berry (448019) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246231)

Nat Friedman's follow-up to Linus' post is grown-up and sensible (http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-Dec ember/msg00025.html [gnome.org] ):

On Mon, 2005-12-12 at 17:46 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> I personally just encourage people to switch to KDE.

Everyone on this list knows the Linux desktop is in a "pick your poison" state right now.

Anyone who's used Linux for a year has experienced this, whatever choices they've made of desktop environment, settings, etc.

We can snipe at each other all day long. (Linus, every time I copy large files between devices on my Linux system my mouse pointer skips. It works fine on my Mac). That's not productive.

Usability is important. Usability encompasses multiple things: functionality, robustness, performance, sensible user interface design. We all need to do a better job of this (insert usability testing/betterdesktop.org plug here).

Yes, some GNOME developers are self-appointed control freak antifeature nazis who've stripped functionality in pursuit of some theoretical "non geek" user who does not exist, thereby crippling their software.

And probably some KDE developers are feature sluts who never saw a checkbox they didn't love, exposing users to all kinds of broken features.

Follow either of these ideas to their logical extremes and we won't have a useful desktop for a large user base.

We need Linux to grow up if we're going to make Linux on the desktop a success. Let's have a grown-up discussion. If I worked for Microsoft I'd be very happy to see you throwing pejoratives around like that on this list.

So, yes, usability is important and Linus being able to bind his mouse buttons to whatever he wants is important, I guess. But it's probably not what's stopping Linux from dominating the desktop market. What's holding Linux back on the desktop? Applications, device support. Time, also. The printing dialog? I don't know.

(By the way, on my GNOME machine at home, there is code running that parses the options from the PPD file and makes a GUI out of them. Maybe this ships in SUSE but not in whatever distro Till is using?)

Nat

one step closer (1)

BushCheney08 (917605) | more than 8 years ago | (#14246232)

I see that Linux is now one step closer to taking over the desktop...
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