Schematic/PCB Design for Linux? 132
VanessaDannenberg asks: "Occasionally, I have been known to design the occasional circuit board. I've been using Eagle, but with the board size limit of 3x4 inches in the free version, and a $400 price tag to exceed this limit, it is time to consider a Free Open Source Software alternative. Not being a Linux programmer myself, I have checked into and ruled out gEDA, KiCAD, Electric, XCircuit, and a host of others as being too incomplete to replace Eagle. My requirements are pretty basic: Draw a schematic, make a board out of it, edit and autoroute it, export to Gerber, and do it all natively within Linux. So, with this in mind, what suggestions do you folks have?"
Good luck! (Score:2, Informative)
Unfortunately, this is a bit of a niche application.
Re:Good luck! (Score:1)
Re:Good luck! (Score:1)
Re:Good luck! (Score:2)
Re:Good luck! (Score:1)
I second that.
If Eagle does what the submitter needs then $400 is not that bad.
Professional packages can run in the $10s of thousands per seat.
IMHO you need programmers that are also board designers to be able to support an OSS project that can come close to the level of functionality of a commercial package.
This is a specialized product after all and I don't think much can be borrowed from elsewhere. Are there any fields that overlap with auto-router theory?
Re:Good luck! (Score:1, Offtopic)
--Robert
Re:Good luck! (Score:1)
Re:Good luck! (Score:2)
Seems to me it would fall under the general heading of Graph Theory, in which case yes, there are plenty of related fields, and anyone with even an AS in Comp Sci should understand the basic principles.
'pcb' (Score:2)
Oh. Here it is:
http://bach.ece.jhu.edu/~haceaton/pcb/ [jhu.edu]
Re:'pcb' (Score:2)
Re:'pcb' (Score:1)
Re:'pcb' (Score:2)
As far as I know, nothing exists that isn't seriously buggy/lacking features. It's really the one application I use at work that keeps me on Windows (we use Protel SE).
Re:'pcb' (Score:2)
The poster's requirements suggest that he/she should just shell out the $400 for a real Eagle license.
An alternative would be to get the PCP source code and start adding the needed functionality. That effort would reveal Eagle' price to be a real bargain.
Re:$400? Get real (Score:3, Insightful)
The free way to do this is get a resist pen and blank copper-clad and just draw your circuit right on it.
Re:$400? Get real (Score:3, Interesting)
I like the PCB program. It integrates well with gschem (much better than how Eagle does it). It's a lot less buggy than Eagle (no annoying boogers and redraw bugs). It resembles a professional PCB layout
Re:$400? Get real (Score:3, Insightful)
There's some magical force at play where the more complex the board, where routing by hand gets more painful, the more likely an autorouter will screw you up and cause a respin. At home, if I'm going to pay hundreds out of pocket just to get the board fabbed I'd rather not risk it. (Cost aside, there's the agony of han
Re:$400? Get real (Score:2)
The problem is that creating good symbols is a bit of a black art, in choosing how to lay out the pins and whereabouts on the symbol to put the buses. I don't see anyone automating it in a sensible way any time soon, unfortunately.
PCB now comes with a whole bunch of parameterized footprints now, though, which are quite nice. Also, a number of footprint-generating scripts for v
Re:$400? Get real (Score:2)
I recently did an interface board that basically hooks two IC sockets of 80 pins each to a connector of 500 pins, no other components. OrCAD blew chunks. Allegro, however, did something in five minutes that with another two hours of tweaking, was very n
Re:$400? Get real (Score:4, Informative)
Basically, I have to cordially disagree completely with your assessment of Eagle. It isn't the best interface in the world, but the number of bugs and the performance are far better in my experience than you've described. I intentionally and preferably use it over Protel all the time.
I guess that's why they call them opinions.
Re:$400? Get real (Score:2)
With that said,
Re:$400? Get real (Score:2)
Geez, they don't price like "entry-level". In comparison to what?
I'm sure there are even more fancy electronics design systems, but calling Protel entry level seems a little excessive. Middle of the range perhaps...
Re:$400? Get real (Score:2)
Re:$400? Get real (Score:2)
When I place a design manually, the small things get in the way, and sometimes I put a few of them in the design before I'm ready for them. And then I forget to move them, sometimes leading to long traces all over the place when I'm
Re:$400? Get real (Score:1)
KiCAD looks good (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/ [lis.inpg.fr]
Re:KiCAD looks good (Score:1)
There are screenshots at the site, for the Schematic screen, Component editor, Board editor, Module/Footprint editor, a 3d viewer (this looks sweet)...
Preety nice...
Re:KiCAD looks good (Score:2)
Re:KiCAD looks good (Score:2)
Re:KiCAD looks good (Score:2, Informative)
This is what pisses me off... (Score:5, Insightful)
"$400 price tag to exceed this limit, it is time to consider a Free Open Source Software alternative."
So in other words, you're not willing to pay the programmers who support their families for this product, and you are not willing to donate anything to an Open Source project.
You sir, are a leech. You want a product for free, not because of a moral issue, a desire for community support, accessible developers, or any other OS reason. No, you want an OS product because your greedy little heart wants something for free.
-Rick
A little over the top? maybe, but I've had a crappy week. I'm going to go home, get drunk, and forget the last 4 Mondays.
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:1)
I wanted few times to design some circuits myself, but every time I would be stopped by available time or funds. If I had tool like that, it does not need to do EM simulations of the traces or any complex stuff, just simply route placed components and be able to match schematic with layout (i.e. LVS), I might actually have some custom hardware.
I am even ready to help designing it that is why I use gEDA. It is not perfect, but it can be improved. So, there is not reason to attack guy, s
Software isn't the only open entity (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Software isn't the only open entity (Score:2, Informative)
And this is precisely why I asked about an open source replacement. It's one thing to pay for a product if you're going to use it to make money. It's a far different thing to expect to pay the same money for a product only t
Re:Software isn't the only open entity (Score:1)
> but it's buggy on my setup (missing config files in Ubuntu, schematic
> doesn't get translated over to the board properly, no
> component-onto-board auto-place function to go with the schematic
> capture)
As the primary author of gEDA/gaf, I have some comments:
1) gEDA does not attempt to integrate PCB with schematic capture.
PCB is just one possible backend or target of a netlist that
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:1)
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:1)
Using my PowerSID project as an example, that's enough PCB real estate to make either two main boards in the current design, or one main board and two secondary boards. Or, I could re-design the PowerSID like I want to, to cram *everything* into one of those 4x5.5 panels.
Add about $10 in parts to stuff and solder it and we're up to $60. Add the cost of the software, $1260. Even if
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:1)
the software that is currently being used will let you design a board 3 by 4, that is a fair size in my books for something you are building yourself. If you are making money out of these boards then buy the software you want, it is called a business expense. If it is ju
It's probably not for a hobby (Score:5, Informative)
Re:It's probably not for a hobby (Score:2)
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:2)
Grab.
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:2)
You are seeing only one side of the argument - a person not willing to contribute the required amount.
The other side is that the distributors of the software are not willing to contribute the software to someone who can not justify the high price tag, but would find the software valuable if it was given freely.
Some of the good reasons to work on free software is to change the world by providing universal availability of tools to access and interact with computers.
The situation of "sho
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:2)
Besides, if money is no object, commercial solutions almost always win. Would I rather use Solid Edge or some crapp
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:2)
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:2)
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:2)
SYMBOLS! SYMBOLS! SYMBOLS!
No EDA program is going to have schematic/PCB symbols for every component you'll ever use, but at least Eagle almost has a majority of them. But for the rest, you have to make your own. While the process of doing this is a bit painful and annoying wit
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:2)
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:2)
What's insightful about jumping to conclusions? (Score:2)
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:2)
I've written software that I've given away for free. I'm not bitching that nobody has contributed money or code to it.
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:4, Insightful)
God, I hope you took double shots! Uh, lissen, we can't keep it free(freedom) without keeping it free(price). And we can't give it away and then cuss people out for accepting it.
We couldn't possibly fit all the users of every product into it's developer base, anyway. You'd spend 90% of the release cycle answering emails.
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:3, Insightful)
Workin on it.
"We couldn't possibly fit all the users of every product into it's developer base, anyway. You'd spend 90% of the release cycle answering emails."
Imagine having 90% of your users donate: Code, Money, Hosting, and/or Bug Reports. Wouldn't that be a dream!
-Rick
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:2)
If you don't like the Open Source license, I hear there are other ones where you can require that the users support the (sometimes large, often rather small) community that develops it. [/sarcasm]
I think you need to re-read the definition on freedom, buddy. It's doi
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:2)
As far as "donate anything" goes, what would you like them to donate? Bug reports? Suggestions? Patches? Cash? Quite possibly they will do any or all of these, but they ain't going to donate them *before* they find something that does what they want, now are they?
Grab.
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:1)
Re:This is what pisses me off... (Score:1)
Not Linux, but ExpressPCB works well (Score:2)
Re:Not Linux, but ExpressPCB works well (Score:2)
Re:Not Linux, but ExpressPCB works well (Score:2)
Frankly, I think the ExpressPCB model is handicapped by the fact that you have to use their software, and are locked into it. Meanwhile, standard data formats do exist for sending PCB designs to board shops.
Oh, and its Windows-only.
$400 is cheap when you spend more on components! (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:$400 is cheap when you spend more on components (Score:1)
Re:$400 is cheap when you spend more on components (Score:2)
Oh my God!
Whatever will he do?
Re:$400 is cheap when you spend more on components (Score:1)
Re:$400 is cheap when you spend more on components (Score:2)
Re:$400 is cheap when you spend more on components (Score:1)
Buy two layered board from local store (Active?). Then buy UV sensitive chemical, unfortunatelly I can not remember the name, but you can find it on Internet. Dip board in it, glue transparency on the board and expose it to bright UV light for half hour (this depends on the chemical you used).
Remove transparency and put board in acid (you will have to use trial and error to figure out for how long, since it depends of type of acid you use
PCB123 (Score:1, Offtopic)
It looks like someone is trying to get it to work under Wine:
http://www.winehq.org/hypermail/wine-bugs/2004/06/ 0125.html [winehq.org]
Since this bug is so old maybe it has been fixed by now.
Of course the downside of PCB123 is that you don't get a Gerber file, you are required to use the PCB123 board fabrication services. I personally think they are pretty good so don't mind being tied to one vendor.
Re:Bullshit! (Score:2)
If you hadn't posted as AC, I'd have added you to my Friends list!
My suggestion for the original poster is (as others have said) PAY the $125-$400 for Eagle. We need more commercially supported software on linux (**), so help by supporting a company that makes products for linux!
Cheers!
--------
** RMS wouldn't aggree with that, but I think Linus would!
Eagle is hard to beat (Score:1, Offtopic)
PCB does not do routing but is sortof passable for laying out by hand. Even for that though, I like Eagle much better.
Or you can use one of those board houses that provide the software for free (PCB Express and another I can't remember) but those are Windows programs. With Eagle, you have more choices where to get the boards made. I've heard good things about Olimex if you need to
Re:Eagle is hard to beat (Score:2)
Hmmm... sounds like your priorities are a bit off (Score:4, Insightful)
Now, I'm sure that all the gEDA people will tell you that you can help make their project do all you need it to... but I'm not really a programmer, nor do I have the time to become one - I'm busy earning money to feed my baby. I've contributed (a very small amount of) code to the kernel, I've contributed financially to open-source projects... but there isn't always a viable open-source solution to your software needs. That's when you need to pay someone for software that already works.
You want to design boards using Linux, you probably need to be using Eagle. Sorry. Consider either a) using the non-profit version or b) getting the for-profit version but not the autorouter - Eagle's is very good indeed (FAR better than Protel's, IMHO), but you'll almost always get better results hand-routing anyway.
Frankly, even at $400 Eagle is a bargain.
Re:Hmmm... sounds like your priorities are a bit o (Score:2)
Re:Hmmm... sounds like your priorities are a bit o (Score:2)
Re:Hmmm... sounds like your priorities are a bit o (Score:2)
Re:Hmmm... sounds like your priorities are a bit o (Score:2)
Actually, it's more important for the board layout as everything must be perfectly 1:1 to see that everything fits appropriately (particularly if you're working with a new part and have just designed a new footprint). Mac OS X's X11 handles printing just fine (perhaps without the standard windows, however). If you're still not satisfied, print to PostScript and open in Preview.
Was it by chance looking for the license file? Ju
Re:Hmmm... sounds like your priorities are a bit o (Score:2)
Er, I'm not sure you're right about that. The $125 version of Eagle is a non-profit version, which means that you can't attempt to make money off it. It's not like you can use the non-profit license to sell stuff as long as you don't actually go into the black.
From the non-profit license [cadsoft.de]:
With this declaration I assure that the non-profit license of EAGLE I bought under my name will be used exclus
Time to evaluate what your time is worth (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're designing PCBs, $400 should be chump change-- right? I'm used to EDA packages that cost well over six figures per seat.
Re:Time to evaluate what your time is worth (Score:2)
I managed to get a trial version of protel99 working reasonably under Wine at one stage. It wasn't perfect, but it did enough for the simple things I do. You could try that and "upgrade" your license. Not entirely legal though.
The beauty of the trial version of protel (and modern Wine versions)
point? (Score:2)
Use some logic here. If there was some up-to-date, well-maintained, and open source PCB design program that trumped all the ones you mentioned, wouldn't you have run across it already?
There sure have been a lot of these questions on Ask Slashdot recently.
Sometimes... you just have to pay (Score:2)
To date, despite running with OpenSource, I've purchased Win4Lin, VMware, QCAD, numerous other small ( $50) packages and recently MainActor (though MA was a bit harder to justify), it's part of business, while the upfront costs can bite, if you've thought it out and you _really_ need it, then it pay
Said it before (Score:1)
Re:Said it before (Score:2)
3x4 is too SMALL?? (Score:1)
With that said, what exactly it is that you are wanting to do that takes up more than 3x4 inches. Is the fab shop you are using so low tech that you can't do a 4(mil trace) & 4(mil space) board and therefore are unable to properly place/route the board? Also, how many nets are we talking about here that you would need an autorouter? Are you us
Re:3x4 is too SMALL?? (Score:2)
If there's no reason for a board to be crammed together, why make it crammed together? I'd say over 65% of the boards I do end up on a rack. There's oodles of space. It cools better and is easier to fix, you don't end up with massive grounding headaches, and it can be hand routed in a FRACTION of the time.
For the ~10% of stuff I do that is horribly size c
Re:3x4 is too SMALL?? (Score:1)
Anyway I agree with the other posters, expecting high-quality
Re:3x4 is too SMALL?? (Score:1)
I should have been a little more specific, but I wanted to keep the summary fairly short. Take a look at this page:
My Projects Page [globalpc.net]
See the boards at the top named "PowerSID"? Notice how I had to divide it into two? I want to re-release it as a one-board design, and clearly there's no way to cram all of those parts into a 3x4 inch board.
Similarly, notice the "Front Panel" design. Routed with 10 mil tra
Re:3x4 is too SMALL?? (Score:1)
Not idea, but.. (Score:1)
I need it for a few college classes, but they gave out copies of XP and Visio for free so that didn't cost me anything. Thank's to VMWare Player I don't have to dualboot anymore.
I use Eagle pro (Score:1)
PCSB/Schematic CAD for Linux (Score:3, Informative)
MUCS-PCB & KiCAD = FOSS PCB Heaven (Score:1, Informative)
- multi-layer auto-router with Gerber Output
- input is a netlist... like the kind KiCAD's eeschema can create
problems: not for complex/high-speed designs (if u need BGA devices, matched-length traces/impedences, etc. you NEED high end tools like Altium's Protel DXP/Designer or OrCAD)
What problems did u have with KiCAD? I've done several hobbyist designs in KiCAD and it has met all my needs. It takes a while to get used to its quirky UI,
Mod parent up! An informative AC! (Score:1)
For what it's worth, though, Eagle rocks! Another poster commented about the difficulty of cad software makers to maintaining parts libraries - I think the better question is the ease of making your own parts libraries in your chosen CAD softwar
EDA software = perfect example of software lock-in (Score:1)
But for whatever reason, our department seems to be unable to purchase a seat (license) for it that doesn't expire. Which means that my designs become uneditable unless our department mails Mentor a check every 12 months. It makes me sick.
I really want there to be a good FOSS solution, and like the initial poster, I've found the existing products to be really inadequate. Som
Re:EDA software = perfect example of software lock (Score:1)
> promising. They have very nice screenshots and feature lists. But they
> seem to be vapor. I think they're inhibiting others from starting a
> good FOSS EDA package. Maybe.
Huh?
1) I don't recall the gEDA project promising anything. Please point
out a specific instance of this? It has enabled many people to
use EDA software that would otherwise be completely unobtainable.
2) vapor? Wh
PCB is good too (Score:2)
I've used it for some fairly complex multi-layer boards. I prefer to do the schematic on paper and manually route it, but autorouting is supported. One warning: some of the symbols are wrong. In particular, the (default) holes in the pads are too small for most resistors.
program (Score:1)