Small-Town Open Source Adoption 134
An anonymous reader writes "ZDNet has a piece on the adoption of open source software by Steamboat Springs, CO. The small resort town has integrated OSS into all aspects of productivity and e-governance. Kent Morrison, the IS Manager for the town, discusses what made them switch and how it has gone." From the article: "What about Linux on the desktop--is this an option for your organization? Morrison: We've discussed it. With Linux's ability to emulate Windows improving every year, we see that as a possibility. We would build a Linux image for the majority of users, but for the 20 percent of users that run Windows-only applications we would keep them on the same platform. We would try to make a Linux desktop look like our Windows environment (the organization currently runs Windows 2000 but will start rolling out XP this year) as we don't want to retrain our users. We don't have a time frame for installing Linux yet, though."
Asking for trouble... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Asking for trouble... (Score:2)
Re:Asking for trouble... (Score:2)
On the other hand, if the server isn't connected to anything but local workstations and isn't doing anything but one thing, it's probably okay to let it stand for as long as it can. Where I would question that policy is, if it's only doing one thing, do you really want to never improve its ability to do that one thing - or w
Re:Asking for trouble... (Score:2)
I agree somewhat. I don't not reboot my FreeBSD systems just to see how long I can go without doing a reboot. I reboot when appropriate and needed (such as patches). However, I think a lot of the "it's been x months since I rebooted" is due a lot to the fact that you have to reboot a Windows box so much. I routinely reboot my work PC once each day when I arrive. Why? Well, for no particular or specific reason, however I did notice that the hangs and crashes
Re:Asking for trouble... (Score:1)
I don't develop any Windows applications (so maybe I'm not using the leaky DLLs everybody else is), but it works just fine. If anything, our linux servers have a tendency to reboot themselves every once in a while (no one knows why, and we don't have a system admininstrator to check - they're too expensive
Re:Asking for trouble... (Score:1)
Sorry thats me.
had to reboot to put the network into promiscusis mode.
Shouldnt be rebooting now that all the sniffers are in place.
Re:Asking for trouble... (Score:2)
Re:Asking for trouble... (Score:1)
Re:Asking for trouble... (Score:2)
Overnight backups.
Re:Asking for trouble... (Score:2)
Re:Asking for trouble... (Score:1)
I just read the manual for my new toughbook last night, the Panasonic CF-Y4, which had ubuntu installed on it within hours after I got it. The manual had this legendary bit:
"If the standby or hibernation function is used repeatedly, the computer may not work
properly. To stabilize computer operations, shut down Windows on regularly basis
(about once a week) without using the standby or hibernation function."
Glad I installed linux, I can keep it suspended all the time I have it
Re:Asking for trouble... (Score:2)
Re:Asking for trouble... (Score:2)
redundant server to maintain basic functionality.
It's not redundant if it doesn't handle more than just basic functionality. What you want is duplicate everything, so that if the servers have to go down,
Re:Asking for trouble... (Score:2)
You're right. And wrong.
A single-minded attempt to achieve maximum uptime without regard to other factors, such as security patches, energy use, etc. is wrong. You're right there.
But what is also wrong is like what happens to me when automatic server rebooting policies, which are much more common in the Windows world, cause my open session on a terminal server to disappear over the weekend. IMHO, heavy-handed weekly reboots can erode productivity and should not have to happen. To be fair, I think my Windo
Small town makes it easier (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Small town makes it easier (Score:1)
Re:Small town makes it easier (Score:1)
Re:Small town makes it easier (Score:1)
Re:Small town makes it easier (Score:1)
Re:Small town makes it easier (Score:2)
Steamboat Springs, CO may be having a great time moving to Linux, but it helps a lot that it's such a small community. The logistic problems are nowhere near the level they would be if a major metropolis tried to move all their systems to Linux. I think it's a great move, but there's a reason it's happening in a small town in Colorado rather than one of the cities with a high concentration of technology companies.
Actually, being a "low" tech town should they not have more problems than the "high tech" cit
Re:Small town makes it easier (Score:1)
Re:Small town makes it easier (Score:2)
If it's like most places I've seen, they have plenty of linux/unix "experts" available. Chances are that many of the techies supporting their MS operations run linux and/or OSX on their home machines.
Also, it's likely that those techies have quietly encouraged running MS Windows, because that means permanently paying lots of support people to keep the computer
Re:Small town makes it easier (Score:2)
Obviously, having to convert fewer users and go through fewer political meetings to even start the project is an advantage. No surprise there.
I work part time for City College of San Francisco - you wouldn't believe the political process that has to be gone through to just get a new application onto the system here. Endless meetings at which nothing is done, everything is postponed, and pointless objections are rai
Re:Small town makes it easier (Score:2)
Kudos to Kent Morrison!
Re:Small town makes it easier (Score:2)
Ok, I'm confused. What wouldn't scale, other than the political decision?
Larger city == larger budget. More users to retrain + more money to retrain them = exactly the same problem as less users to retrain + less money to retrain them.
The only exception I see is when you have an organization so small that no one's found anything tying them to Windows, in which case you still have t
With Linux's ability to emulate Windows... (Score:1, Offtopic)
Scam (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Install a few Linux file servers (without disturbing your Windows 2000 domain)
2) Talk to the press about plans of moving from Exchange to "open source" software. Mention possible plans of using Linux on desktops.
3) Let the Linux community talk about "another Munich"
4) Wait for the Microsoft call and cut a good deal for the already planned XP rollout
Being a textbook Red Hat customer could also come in handy, in case Microsoft does not bite.
Re:Scam (Score:2)
A few years ago I was working for a "windows shop" company. Everything ran on windows server. The CIO was complaining to me about the fact that the time was coming for a meeting with MS about licensing. I told him to put another computer in his office, install linux on it, put up a penguin desktop and screen saver. I said if (when!) ms asks about it to say "one of my guys likes linux so I thought I would install it and see what the fuss was about". I guaranteed him that he would get a massive dis
Open Source Adoption (Score:2)
A town's IS manager (Score:2)
What? How does that work? The IS Manager for the town council, maybe.
Re:A town's IS manager (Score:1)
Re:A town's IS manager (Score:1)
Technology-neutral ? (Score:2)
Re:Technology-neutral ? (Score:2)
AutoCad?
Re:Technology-neutral ? (Score:1)
I take it you've never met "The Silver Springs Police Dispatchers of Doom" in World of Warcraft then.....
Re:Technology-neutral ? (Score:1)
I suck.
info sharing (Score:4, Insightful)
A SourceForge repository for municipal applications would be great.
Re:info sharing (Score:1)
This is so obvious, why isn't everyone doing it? (Score:3, Insightful)
Hmmmm. We're about to start rolling out Windows XP? That means we need to start price negotiations with Microsoft. Hey! Lets call a reporter and tell them that we are THINKING about switching to Linux. That will undoubtedly get us a better price for our Windows licenses, since Microsoft would love to have the follow up story be "Steamboat Springs chooses Windows after all."
You are almost neglegent as the CIO of a prominent organization/government entity if you don't do the obligitory "I'm thinking of Linux" story before you negotiate for Windows licenses.
Re:This is so obvious, why isn't everyone doing it (Score:1)
Not unless you make enough waves in the press to get posted on slashdot.
This is the reason I said that you need to be from a "prominent organization." I too am impressed that Steamboat Springs managed to make enough waves to get noticed. It's the eyeballs on the press articles that give them leverage. Nevertheless, I agree that they are a bit too small to have much eff
Re:This is so obvious, why isn't everyone doing it (Score:2)
Only moving to XP now... (Score:1)
Mozilla? (Score:2)
I'm going to be fairly annoyed if TFA turns out to be a lengthy discussion of how they installed Firefox.
"We Don't Want to Retrain Our Users" (Score:3, Informative)
Uh-wha? Even with the classic skin, unless these workstations are completely managed with server policies, the users are going to have to be re-trained on how to do things that are different in XP than in 2000. Never mind where Vista and Office 12 will take them.
They're sure lucky that they started using computers with Windows 2000 because the migration from DOS to Win 3.1 to Win 95 to Win 2K would have been too much for their users - their minds would have exploded!
Or.... maybe their users really are smart and this is just a fallacious excuse.
Re:"We Don't Want to Retrain Our Users" (Score:2)
I can arrange pretty much anything on an XP machine to be identical to a 2K machine if given enough effort save the itty bitty things (like the picture on the start button). Doesn't take much effort either.
Re:"We Don't Want to Retrain Our Users" (Score:2)
Just off the top of my head:
Re-arranged control panels.
Remote Desktop
Windows Firewall
Product Activation
CD Writing
Security Center
Network Bridge
L2TP/NAT-T
I don't use Windows much, better let somebody else finish the list.
Re:"We Don't Want to Retrain Our Users" (Score:2)
Re:"We Don't Want to Retrain Our Users" (Score:1)
Re:"We Don't Want to Retrain Our Users" (Score:2)
Small towns don't have IT Managers. As I said, in a non-server managed environment.
Re:"We Don't Want to Retrain Our Users" (Score:2)
Like hell they don't.
Hell, most home users never touch the control panel, why would you think they would in a business?
Not to mention that a lot of the things you mentioned were extra features, not required use. Who says they have to use them?
Re:"We Don't Want to Retrain Our Users" (Score:2)
Like hell they don't.
Our town, aside from the road crew and police, has two employees. I can assure you none of them is an IT manager. And neither are the policemen or road guys. They contract out the occasional help.
The small cities around here contract out for IT management, but don't have a full-time IT staff. The large cities do have an IT staff. We don't have any metro areas.
If your small town has three administrative employees and one of them is an IT mana
Re:"We Don't Want to Retrain Our Users" (Score:2)
We're talking about small towns roughly the size of this small city. Even the small town I live in has enough employees to need some form of IT manager (although I doubt that is the position name). Then again, we're a county seat.
Re:"We Don't Want to Retrain Our Users" (Score:2)
I'm afraid this tanget has lead completely away from the salient argument. The contention was that switching from Windows 2000 to Linux was no harder than switching from DOS to Windows 2000. At no point did I advocate my town's switch to linux - go ahead and re-read it. This thread has obviously outlived its usefulness.
why bother? (Score:3, Funny)
"Great! So tell me about all the benefits of switching from Windows to Linux again?"
"............"
What a bunch of hypocrites. Microsoft is rotten through and through, UNTIL you start releasing your own operating system, and then Windows allofasudden becomes the shining perfect pinacle of excellence to be exactly cloned byte for byte. So, in effect, your ONLY real problem with Microsoft was simply that it wasn't YOUR COMPANY. Well, people who think that are just as damned as Bill Gates, with the extra measure of being even WORSE, since Bill never envied anybody else.
Re:why bother? (Score:1)
Re:why bother? (Score:2)
And therein the nut of the matter. This reminds me too much of the child of alcoholic parents, who grows up to drink himself, but rationalizes: "But *I'll* never get addicted, because I have the bad example of my parents to teach me when to stop."
See, Operating System sophistication and user awareness go hand in hand. Smart system=smart users. Dumb the system down, and WHERE DO YOU STOP??? When you ditch the compiler, negating the whole advantage of open source? When you e
Re:why bother? (Score:2)
Re:why bother? (Score:2)
??? All *any* TV needs to do, be it LCD, cathode tube, projection, HD, or black'n'white is display pictures and play sounds. The only controls you'll ever need for that is a channel changer and a volume button. Some secondary tweaks for last channel, etc. The rest is peripherals.
there is nothing stopping savvy users from switching off all the automatic stuff
Oh, were it that easy! Have you noticed how hard it is to find a slide rule these days? Could be
Re:why bother? (Score:2)
Well, so I blew that one. It's T2 not T3, and Gentoo's hardly "rock-bottom".
Re:why bother? (Score:2)
Re:why bother? (Score:2)
Re:why bother? (Score:2)
Re:why bother? (Score:2)
If you haven't guessed it by now: "Mainstream" is the farthest you could get from describing me. Programming tools are not "mainstream" or more people would use them than not use them.
"Please, people, when you write in, try to have a point, OK? It just makes the show move along a whole lot faster."
Re:why bother? (Score:2)
Re:why bother? (Score:2)
Re:why bother? (Score:2)
In fact, care to name a single distro that doesn't ship with compilers?
Emulate Windows? (Score:1)
Re:Emulate Windows? (Score:2)
something I don't get (Score:2)
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:2)
Press 1 to launch this app
Press 2 to run that one
etc
Read The Synopsis! (Score:2)
Re:Read The Synopsis! (Score:2, Interesting)
"There may be 10,000 people living in the Steamboat Springs area (give or take a few thousand), but they certainly aren't all working for the local government!"
There are over 6 million people in Colorado, about 35,000 of those live in Steamboat Springs. There are around 700 people working for the local government. Even if the move to a Linux Desktop for a computerized timeclock were implemented, you still have to take time out of YOUR day to train all of them, that's a lot of time.
"If my little sister
Re:Read The Synopsis! (Score:3)
This particular comment makes no sense. Are you saying that if the city hires someone who is familiar with a different app than the city has standardised on that the city should change? Perhaps you are, and perhaps I actually agree with you on a moments reflection (if so, ignore the no sense comment) but I doubt many would agree with this position.
all the best,
d
Re:Read The Synopsis! (Score:4, Insightful)
If learning to clicky on an icon on a Linux desktop instead of a Windows desktop is an issue, than Steamboat Springs has a lot more problems than just their IT structure. And, if part or their job is learning a new application (based on Linux), than YES, they be forced to use it, or find another job.
Face it, before Windows, people in business and government used ALL SORTS of funky non-GUI hard to use applications, and many still do. What's the big deal about moving to a Linux based desktop? Seriously, people that can't understand RedHat Enterprise WS4 desktop or whatever the latest SuSE offering is, shouldn't be touching computers. This is ***VERY*** simple stuff.
Re:Read The Synopsis! (Score:2)
At the tourism place here they use some software that was custom built, and encompasses a spreadsheet, word processor, basic HTML parser and custom database-frontend thing that looks a bit like an MS Access form, all wrapped up into a frontend that provides basically no advan
Re:Read The Synopsis! (Score:1)
You clearly have not seen enough companies to be commenting on this.
Re:I've used Windows since forever. (Score:2)
You said you have spent _forever_ learning Windows.
Of course it's harder to do something with a different tool than with the same tool you have been doing it.
I bet that for someone who uses a nail to make holes, using a drill would be way harder the first time. That doesn't mean it's actually harder. It's just not a fair comparison.
The problem is that most people haven't used Windows
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:2)
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:1)
Well, yeah, like retraining them to use Office when they scramble the menus yet again. Or trying to explain why their familiar Start menus have changed to something that is totally incrompehensible from the win98 stuff like it did in XP.
Ya know, to think that Windows itself doesn't require retraining when Microsoft keeps swapping shit around to glue yet another new face on the same old whore is just nonsense!
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:2)
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:1)
- A user switching from Windows 98 to Windows 2000 to Windows XP will have pretty much the same level of difficulties as from Windows 2000/XP to Gnome. Many users have told me this (and very non-tech users!).
- If users know only "d
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:3, Insightful)
Look, dopes.
Just because you two can sit in some air conditioned room and have as many systems as you like, doesn't mean that we all have that luxury...
I own an IT Consulting business, and manufacture IP PBX systems on the side, and I'd like to explain something to you.
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:2)
Why all this compassion and caring for employees and the operating system they are used to? First words out of my mouth when I take over as the admin are usually "things are really going to change here. You are going to unlearn many things and relearn many others." and since they're employees who want to keep their jobs, they learn to use the software that's made available...."what!?!? you don't want to learn this new stuff? I'm sure the next guy to apply for a jo
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:1)
""what!?!? you don't want to learn this new stuff? I'm sure the next guy to apply for a job will have no problems with this""
I don't know where you come from, but we tend to respect our employees and their associated talents. (Like spelling and punctuation, for example. You just sound like some idiot spouting off inane nonsense. Seriously, have some freakin' self respect and start acting like something other than a pimply faced, sittn' in the dark moron who does nothing but stare at porno in his operatio
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:4, Insightful)
I call bullshit. I bet those retards working there are constantly getting confused by windows and it's cryptic error messages and mysterious slowdowns, lockups, locked files, re-arranging icons, ever changing taskbars etc.
Lets face it this company is hiring people who are too stupid to understand that a flashing light on a phone means there is a message waiting. They are going to need constant attention from you no matter what you install.
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:2)
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:1)
1) Why are you talking to sysadmins?
2) Why are you letting them tell you what to use?
It sounds like you're really just selling systems that happen to run on Linux. In that case, you're a system integrator or VAR.
Instead of going to sysadmins and saying "here add this other OS to your systems because it's leet," you should be going to CIO's and saying "replace *all* your systems with Linux and save a bundle in support and maintenanc
your sig. (Score:2)
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:2)
They can, but only with training. You and me, we explore and figure it out. You don't really have to be all that smart, but you need to be that kind of person. My dad is, to a degree. My mom? She works with computers every day at work. Every application she uses is on a desktop shortcut. When I
It's too hard (Score:1)
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:1)
Most distros have a taskbar icon that works like the start button anyway!
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:2)
As long as they let a consultant keep them informed about enhancements and changes in the OSS landscape, so they can know when OSS products have gotten good enough to switch out more parts of their proprietary infrastructure, it's not that bad a deal to take their time - especial
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:1)
"As long as they let a consultant keep them informed about enhancements and changes in the OSS landscape..."
Or at least an internal person who can do the same...
6 of one, half dozen of the other, I guess...
Re:Not trying hard enough... (Score:1)
Especially when the next version is also coming out later in the year
Re:More Municipalities Could Save Money This Way (Score:1)
Re:OMFG!!!! Small Town Switched To Linux!!! (Score:2, Funny)