Study Says Cell Phones Can Interfere With Planes 469
3x37 writes "The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette website reports a study by Cargenie Mellon University researchers found that cell phones do interfere with airplane cockpit instruments. The researchers came to this takeaway conclusion: "devices like cell phones 'will, in all likelihood, someday cause an accident by interfering with critical cockpit instruments such as GPS receivers.'""
Cargenie Mellon? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Cargenie Mellon? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Cargenie Mellon? (Score:2)
Good! (Score:3, Insightful)
you don't fly in the states, do you (Score:2)
Hmmm... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Hmmm... (Score:3, Informative)
Any CMU students willing to use their library access and a photocopier for the expansion of human knowledge before the IEEE article is published in March?
I always wonder... (Score:2)
How much similar EM radiation is coming off the plane itself and all its integral electronics?
I had this happen in a hospital waiting room years ago. I knew my battery was shot, so I asked at reception if I could plug in somewhere. "Oh, no, this is a HOSPITAL. We have VERY sensitive equipment in here. We can't have computers running." I sort of chuckled and said "yes, while the first two are true, uhm, [pointing to the several commodity computers on the desk, complete with massive CRTs], what are those stra
re: all electronic devices (Score:2)
I.e. it's not that they're interfering with the instruments, it's that they're making you unable to hear announcements during the two most dangerous parts of a flight.
Re:Hmmm... (Score:2)
It's obviously much greater for a mobile phone than other electronic devices, but a laptop/gaming handheld with wireless technology could still produce a significant amount.
Is the GPS system the only affected system?
Almost certainly not. I suspect GPS was mentioned because it's the only technology most readers would understand. It's not legal to navigate solely by GPS, and the modile phone ban has certainly been part of
Reminds me of a scene on West Wing's Pilot Episode (Score:2)
Toby Ziegler, to Flight Attendant:
"We're flying in a Lockheed Series L1011. It came off the line 20 months ago. It carries a Sim-5 transponder tracking system. Are you telling me I can flummox this thing with something I bought at Radio Shack?"
'Nuff Said
Re:Hmmm... (Score:2)
Re:Hmmm... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Hmmm... (Score:2)
Re:Hmmm... (Score:3, Insightful)
It won't cause GPS to give bad information (Score:3, Informative)
Cell phones DO interfere with aircraft radios though,
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
CarGenie research (Score:2)
The CarGenie researchers also found that they interfere with garage door openers as well.
'Consideration'? (Score:2)
The findings come as the Federal Communications Commission is considering lifting the ban on the use of cell phones during flight.
Why would the FCC 'consider' lifting this ban? If technologies like AirCell [aircell.com] are involved, cell calls from airplanes are completely safe. If not, however, there's no point in lifting the ban, as an unassisted cellphone call has an extremely poor chance [physics911.ca] of getting through above 2000 feet (which would be during landings and takeoffs...precisely when you cell calls can be most haz
Re:'Consideration'? (Score:2, Informative)
If not, however, there's no point in lifting the ban, as an unassisted cellphone call has an extremely poor chance of getting through above 2000 feet (which would be during landings and takeoffs...precisely when you cell calls can be most hazardous).
You are right about phones not being able to place calls above 2k feet (I fly a cessna and was once able to receive a call at 1.5k, but not higher). However, do you know what a CDMA phone does when it has difficulty communicating with a cell tower? It incre
Re:'Consideration'? (Score:2)
The real problem with cell phones in the air is this: cellphones rely on line of sight to a cell tower. If you are on the ground, there are plenty of obstructions that prevent your cell signal from going more than a mile or three. But in the sky... your
Someone usually forgets to turn it off (Score:2)
That most large commercial flights are probably carrying some number of cell phones that are turned on, and that there doesn't appear to be a change in the number of airline incidents as the number of cell phones has increased, indicates to me that the study is probably flawed.
-S
Re:Someone usually forgets to turn it off (Score:2)
It would be of poor design to make the airplanes' electronics easily interferable, and if that is the case, then they shouldn't leave the ground in the first place. If I can bring a plan down while snapping pictures with my camera phone, the TSA has far la
Re:Someone usually forgets to turn it off (Score:2)
Of first, why? Second, what kind of GPS you using? My Garmin GPSMap76 won't even get a lock or loses lock once we are zipping along at 400+ MP/H.
Re:Someone usually forgets to turn it off (Score:2)
I'm using a Garmin ETrex Legend, and it seems to work fine in the air at 400+ mph. This thing has seen some extremely heavy use over the last 4 years. I use rechargable batteries all the time, which is really the way to go. Extremely
Re:Someone usually forgets to turn it off (Score:2)
Wardriving implies contact with the ground. What kind of wifi networks do you find at 30,000 feet, praytell?
um what? (Score:2)
I go on a road trip with three phones around me (not all mine) and a Garmin GPS and it works just fine.
you're telling me that a multi-million dollar instrument panel is more vulnerable than a 350$ garmin GPS I bought at walmart?
Plus they FLY THROUGH areas of strong RF radiation all the time. From cell towers to AM/FM broadcasts to something we in the industry like to call ***RADAR***.
It's just a load of bullshit for three reasons
1. They want you to use the expensive inflight phone
2. It annoys
Re:um what? (Score:2)
What about the two hundred 250 pound passengers that aren't strapped in? People, whether the vehicle is a plane or a car, never consider themselves the deadliest projectiles. I always belt up during the entire flight, as much as possible, anyway. A good reason to strap in a baby, other than the baby's safety, is that it become a twenty pound cannonball during an accident.
I frightened myself on a bus the
Re:um what? (Score:2)
though I've been in seats with a 12" seat belt (e.g. ridiculously short). I think honestly they have no standards. I've been on flights with huge seat belts that even I can tighten up a good 6" or so (recalling I'm a big dude...).
KLM though (dutch) are the worse for both space, seating and seatbelts. Their inf
Re:um what? (Score:2)
Re:um what? (Score:2)
The overstuffed compartments directly over our heads are more likely to injure you. I've seen those pop open on bumpy flights.
Re:um what? (Score:2)
Re:um what? (Score:2)
Hang on. If this lump of lard is in front of you then if the bus stops suddenly she will carry on moving forwards, not back into you. You, on the other hand will move forwards, perhaps into her, and you'd have the benefit of a large flabby lardbag to cushion you like a car's airbag.
Re:um what? (Score:3, Interesting)
So what? A lot of people smoke and don't get lung cancer. Your few hours of sporadically monitored GPS performance don't mean anything statistically.
They want you to use the expensive inflight phone
The inflight phones were removed from our fleet years ago.
It annoys others on the plane
True, but you don't need RF studies to prove that.
In the event of an accident you're phone, laptop, cd pla
Re:um what? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:um what? (Score:2)
I go on a road trip with three phones around me (not all mine) and a Garmin GPS and it works just fine.
Heh. Nothing like outright dismissal of a scientific study from one of the most reputable universities on the planet based on intuition, anecdotal evidence and a summary from a news organization. Tell me, what does your gut feel about having evolved from apes? For or against? Gonna call bullshit?
Re:um what? (Score:2)
I agree phones should be off during the flight but mostly because they're projectiles and because it's annoying.
Personally the only time I'm even remotely "weary" during a flight is takeoff. After that the rest including landing is fine with me.
Tom
Re:um what? (Score:2)
And in case you've never flown commercially
well everything except the inflight magazines
"SkyMall you screwed me again!"
Tom
Re:um what? (Score:2)
Anyhow, I'd be worried about something along those lines- because in the AOA portion of the Airport there's loads of RF interferance that's at a higher signal strength than would be expected. The biggest issue I've got with the GPS line (and other instrumentation on the avionics of the plane...) is that the frequencies are all way off for them to be an issue unless they're using sub-standard gear in violation of FC
Re:um what? (Score:2)
Well, you can leave your cell phones on down south if you wish, but GPS is routinely used by Alaska
I've had it up to here with your rules! (Score:2)
"And despite the ban on cell phone use during flights, the researchers discovered that on average one to four cell phone calls are made from every commercial flight in the northeast United States."
There's always someone who thinks the rules don't apply to them. Even if there wasn't an interference issue, I'd still advocate a cell-phone ban on planes. Who wants to sit next to someone blathering away for an entire flight (and you know there would be people who would do that)?
Re:I've had it up to here with your rules! (Score:2)
Tom
Re:I've had it up to here with your rules! (Score:2)
Re:I've had it up to here with your rules! (Score:2)
Let's ban talking on the planes ! (Score:2)
Is a blathering idiot on a cell phone more annoying than a blathering idiot
talking to his neighbor?
Re:Let's ban talking on the planes ! (Score:2)
Re:I've had it up to here with your rules! (Score:2)
While I'm pro cell usage (on a liberty basis, since I see no credible harm) I don't think calling to say your plane is late is a legit reason...hell, you (as a passenger) probably don't even get to know just how late you're going to be. 5-min? 30-min?
Personally I never pick up someone from the airport w/o checking flight status before I leave.
Airplanes controlled by GPS (Score:2)
because, y'know... (Score:2)
it's a PhD Thesis (Score:2)
Re:it's a PhD Thesis (Score:2)
http://www.cmu.edu/PR/releases06/060228_cellphone
Re:it's a PhD Thesis (Score:2)
People have to die first. (Score:4, Insightful)
Sad, really.
and even then (Score:2)
"well they were just idiots..."
"I bet they were lying..."
"It won't happen if I make just this one little call..."
"I bet the plane won't really crash..."
"hey, they didn't actually take the phone away, so if we crash it'll be their fault...
"... and I can sue!"
how many common rationalizations can you think of that people commonly use to avoid responsibility or make the convenient not illegal?
Have I missed something here? (Score:2)
Do cell phones also "interefere" with SPELL CHECK? (Score:2)
Do cell phones also "interefere" with SPELL CHECK?
Equipment malfunction != crash (Score:2)
Until we start replacing pilots with minimum wage aircraft operator trainees, the crash conclusi
Bull. Bull, bull, bull... (Score:2)
This is cobblers, and even it it wasn't the correct answer is to shield the cockpit, not rely on everyone obeying the stewardess.
J.
Re:Bull. Bull, bull, bull... (Score:2)
>the correct answer is to shield the cockpit, not rely on everyone obeying the stewardess.
Good insight. You'd also have to look at the shielding of the miles of wiring running through the passenger compartment, so it does get harder, but counting on hundreds of people to all do the right thing millions of times in a row is not sane
About that GPS receiver (Score:2)
This is pretty amusing, really. Commercial aircraft flew just fine, and with an excellent safety record for over 50 years before GPS technology was introduced.
Then, the GPS system was added - ostensibly as an aid to safe navigation. But the quote in the summary implies that it has become a single point of failure, which can result in an accident. ("CAUTION: Loss of aircraft may occur").
I know this article is about cellphones, not GPS systems. But am I the only one who has a vision of a dog chasing its
Re:About that GPS receiver (Score:3, Informative)
Airliners today use not only GPS, but INS (inertial navigation - which requires no external inputs once it's set running) as well as old-fa
I guess I don't really care what the reason is (Score:2)
Here's some older research (Score:2)
It is a small number, but it is non-zero.
Especially worrying are the cases where the glideslope indicators were being "misled" because of apparent electronic interference from the back.
This was also discussed at length on PPRuNe a while ago.
two things wrong with this "article"... (Score:2)
two, the original source is of, ahhhh, developing trust, and not availiable for independent study.
puts this in the realm of "anomalous results in deuterated metals," shall we say.
If the airlines really thought.... (Score:2)
That said, I am a person who travels by air frequently, and the last thing I want is some person sitting next to me screaming into his cell phone. The once in a blue moon someone uses that 27.00/minute phone in the seat back is enough. Some self important guy uses his cell to call home and bitch at his employee/vendor/wife/kid/dog, and I'd punch him in the nose.
Re:If the airlines really thought.... (Score:2)
Most cell phones have issues tracking cell towers as they move fast. My cell phone is almost never turned off.
Yet another uninformed article (Score:2, Interesting)
A modern jetliner has redundant GPS receivers, fuel systems, hydraulic systems, etc. If a 767 can run out of fuel and the pilot land the aircraft safely using non-powered backup instruments and almost
And, in other news... (Score:2)
More Information (Score:2)
Amtrak's Quiet Car [amtrak.com] is a success for a reason. People are increasingly irritated by rude cellphone users to the point where I've seen encounters between passengers on trains prompted by someone refusing to exchange their "cellphone voice" for their "indoor voice". It is also the reason why I,
Whatever (Score:2)
Shenanigans.
Watch out for the wookie. (Score:2)
What amazes me is... (Score:2)
Next to locked cockpit doors this seems like a no-brainer. Sure, it will be costly to fix, but not as costly as a couple downed aircraft.
Then Riddle Me this CM . . . (Score:2)
Oddly enough, the plane still managed to find its way.
So redesign the cockpits... (Score:2)
It's the same situation in hospitals - If cell phones can interfere with medical equipment then people's lives are at risk and they should redesign the equipment... not try in vain to beg everyone to remember to turn off their cell phones.
Already checking? (Score:2)
It was worded it such a way that my colleague and me were wondering if they were indeed monitoring the GSM frequencies within the airframe.
On the other hand, the number of calls already made on the surveyed flights kind of prove the added risk of mobile phones to the control of the plane is negligent. With a cell base station on bo
What?!! (Score:2)
Re:Useful! (Score:2)
They aren't. [physics911.ca]
Re:GPS? (Score:2)
Re:GPS? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:GPS? (Score:2)
Re:GPS? (Score:3, Insightful)
Glass cockpit displays are wonderful and all that, but no pilot I know will use them exclusively. At the very least, there will be two of these displays in the cockpit and they will be powered by two completely independent electrical systems. It also normal to have a basic altimeter, airspeed indicator, and artificial horizon with some other indpendent power source (such as a vacuum line).
Re:Does This Mean We're Authorized to Slap the Mor (Score:2)
No need for violence! (Score:2)
Re:Does This Mean We're Authorized to Slap the Mor (Score:2)
Re:Thank the gods (Score:3, Funny)
yeah! (Score:3, Funny)
For a while I thought I was a psyker and was actually utilizing precog, and it was manifesting as "speaker noise". But then a coworker said she heard it too, and she's so dumb she can't be psychic. It's debateable whether she's even sentient, if you ask me. Which you didn't. But you were going to. Hey, maybe I'm psychic!
Re:yeah! (Score:2)
But seriously- even if cell phones pose zero risk, if they are going to have them on planes, I hope they have cell phone sections, like smoking sections used to be. My guess is that no one will sit there, because while many people want to be able to use their cell phones whenever, wherever, they
Thoughts on 'quiet travel' (Score:2)
And the best part (and what relates to the topic here)
Re:Not surprising (Score:2)
GSM interference to GPS? I doubt it. (Score:2)
The question is, can GSM phones (using the 850, 900, 1800, or 1900 MHz bands) actually interfere with GPS, which is on a completely different frequency? Civil GPS is currently on 1575.42 MHz and 1227.60 MHz - far enough away from the cellphone frequency bands that any well-desig
Re:I've experienced interference (Score:2)
I
Re:I've experienced interference (Score:2)
GSM vs CDMA -- need to clarify (Score:2)
The phones that use CDMA (Verizon for ex.) transmit c
Re:GSM vs CDMA -- need to clarify (Score:2)
Somehow I'd suspect the networks wouldn't be quite so willing to cut off the rather lucrative money-spinner that is international roaming. And, the GSM networks have the feature that the !GSM ones can't offer - seamless intern
My cell phone does this. (Score:2)
Re:What airlines allow this... (Score:2)
Re:An obvious solution...? (Score:2)
And a significant number of currently fying aircraft were designed and built before such devices became popular.
Re:Cell phone questions? (Score:2)
Why not let technology do its thing, and then let people decide for themselves how to use it?
Re:Cell phone questions? (Score:2, Insightful)
Yep, I had to use the phone once on a flight. I found the phone conveniently located in the seatback in front of me to suffice. I used at my convenience and was careful not to disturb my fellow travelers. I took great care that I was not responsible for worsenin
Re:old news... (Score:2)
The problem is actually certification.
The FAA requires that every bit of electrical equipment on the plane be certified to fly before the plane can carry passengers. There is a very specific set of criteria for determining airworthiness, including interference levels. Thus, every piece of equipment installed in the plane is hardened against radio interference before the plane is delivered