Next DVD Format War Still Wide Open 253
An anonymous reader writes "Despite the wishes of partisan players like Sony and Toshiba, many consumer electronics manufacturers are opting to support both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray discs in upcoming media players." From the article: "Consumer electronics maker LG Electronics and PC maker Fujitsu-Siemens both said on Thursday they would keep their options open after computer giant Hewlett-Packard said last month it would back HD DVD as well as Blu-ray. Bjorn Sehrm, senior director Digital Home of Fujitsu-Siemens, told Reuters: 'We are planning to put both in. We don't take a stand in that fight, and actually we're very sorry that fight is happening.'
Who wins? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Who wins? (Score:5, Insightful)
Im not one to boycott products, but there is always a first. I will as long as possible, refuse to buy any product built around HDCP. Sadly, that means HD-DVD, BluRay, the PS3, etc... I sure as hell am not going to buy a new monitor and video card to support Vista. This doesnt mean no Vista, but from the sounds of it, it does mean no Media Center.
This is one time where consumers should unite and say a collective "Fuck you!".
Re:Who wins? (Score:4, Interesting)
Another concern is that newer media formats might not have the life cycle of CD and DVD. CDs are still useful and have been around a couple of decades, CDs are scratch tolerant, etc. DVDs still work, but are more fragile. How well do Blu-Ray and HD-DVD stand up?
Re:Who wins? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Who wins? (Score:5, Informative)
They actually came out with a new polymer covering for the Blu-Ray that's highly scratch-resistant. They did a demo a while back trying to jam a screwdriver into the disk and it was still fine. It's really quite an improvement.
>> "how much will your fingerprint or speck of dust stop the player from reading properly."
Possibly, but on the other hand that's not permanent damage
Re:Who wins? (Score:3, Insightful)
Daniel
Re:Who wins? (Score:2)
Re:Who wins? (Score:2)
Great, finally my Netflix discs will play properly!
Re:Who wins? (Score:3, Interesting)
What I was wondering is if perhaps vendors could use the high capacity of this new generation of optical media to put a redundancy on the disk. I know that this would cut down on the maximum capacity of the disk, but, as far as I'm concerned, the current data capacity works just fine in 90% of all cases. Adding a data redundancy (perhaps at a reduced qu
Redundancy on DVDs and CDs (Score:3, Informative)
After re-reading your post, it sounds like you're suggesting an additional layer of redundancy, but with the way the discs are encoded with error correction right now, an unrecoverable scratch would prob
Re:Who wins? (Score:3, Interesting)
Not even a matter of boycotting (Score:3, Insightful)
* Consumers who are aware of the limitations won't purchase the equipment until they have displays capable of using them
* Consumers who are unaware of the limitations (arguably, the majority) will purchase the equipment, discover that it does not work and then return it
* Other consu
Re:Not even a matter of boycotting (Score:2)
Re:Who wins? (Score:2, Insightful)
both win, and maybe consumers too (Score:2)
So they fight. To encourage adoption, they have to keep down the licensing fees. That means other electronics vendors get a "good" deal (pay an arm only, not the leg too).
In the end the royalties are split between the two groups and everything supports both formats.
Of course, the whole royalties thing is sick, but currently a given.
Re:Who wins? (Score:5, Insightful)
If we're expecting a straightforward repeat of VHS vs. Beta, then it will go something like this: The first round of Early Adopters will buy both systems in quantities roughly proportional to manufacturers' established market shares {Sony and Sanyo made Beta kit; JVC supplied cheap VHS machines, built under licence in sewing-machine factories, to rental companies for badge-engineering}. One system will eventually come to dominate, for a reason ultimately determined by neither the consumers nor the manufacturers {VHS recorders, which were mainly supplied on a rental basis, were more easily field-maintained than the technically-superior Beta system}.
However, this time around there will be a crucial difference. When Beta died out, and customers renting Beta machines had to be supplied with VHS replacements, the rental companies took it upon themselves to copy users' accumulated tape libraries onto the new format {Macrovision had not been invented then}. This time, owners of the "failed" format will simply be expected to purchase their favourite films again, to the benefit of the movie studios.
So you bought a film once on VHS, again on VHS because the first one wore out, then on DVD, then once {if you picked the winner of the new format wars from day one} or twice {if you didn't} on the new, high-definition discs.
The crucial deciding factor with cassettes turned out to be field-maintenance. I'm guessing that this time, with new high-definition discs, the crucial deciding factor will be how easily any intended consumer-shafting measures {under the colour of copy-prevention} can be defeated. The important company to watch here is Sony, because they make the discs and the players; so they are unlikely to make copying easy on their players, since they would be shooting themselves in the foot. Player manufacturers who are not involved in the content industry have less to worry about {and the people working in their labs, who are ideally-placed to introduce backdoors, enjoy a movie as much as the next person
Re:Who wins? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Who wins? (Score:2)
IMHO producers are not interested in a clear winner for a format war. If there is no clear winner the first drives supporting hd or blu ray only will be obsolete when the hybrid drives begin popping up at reasonable price.
Re:Who wins? (Score:2, Informative)
Yeah, there's SED (Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display) coming out fairly soon (probably 2007). That's basically flat CRT, with each pixel being an individual mini electron emitter (a la LCD).
Toshiba pushing HARD (Score:5, Interesting)
Most consumers seem to be blown away. I think that being first to market ("later this month") will be a big win for HD DVD.
Sony might have blown it with PS3 delay (Score:4, Insightful)
-Eric
Re:Sony might have blown it with PS3 delay (Score:2)
One thing that I noticed at the Toshiba demos was the recognition that the term "HD DVD" was getting. Consumers know both HD and DVD separately so this is a huge advantage over "Blu Ray".
The demo was a split screen comparison of SDTV compared to HD DVD. On a big TV, that made HD DVD look real impressive and most onlookers were eating it up. When I suggested that the rep compare DVD with HD DVD, he just shrugged and said that they di
Re:Sony might have blown it with PS3 delay (Score:5, Insightful)
Since when is Sony "the good guys"? With all the DRM on both formats, I'd say they're BOTH the bad guys. But, given choice of the lesser of two evils, I'd definitely go with almost ANYONE over Sony. With the recent rootkit debacle and their inexplicably fanatical obsession with preventing any hacking of the PSP, I wouldn't trust them to take out my trash much less design a new media format.
-Eric
Re:Sony might have blown it with PS3 delay (Score:2)
But their heavy DRM schemes really constrict both standards.
I'll probably only be interested in them once the burners are available at reasonable prices so that I can make nice HD home movies on my Mac. As of now, with the current limitation
Re:Sony might have blown it with PS3 delay (Score:2)
But even if you disregard the price, since Sony won't be the only manufacturer of Blu-Ray, the format is looking less and less shiny.
From the past experience (betamax, minidisc, memory stick, atrac) maybe consumers should automatically pick their competition as the winning standard...
Re:Sony might have blown it with PS3 delay (Score:2)
Re:Sony might have blown it with PS3 delay (Score:2)
Yeah, same here. The only exception? Microsoft... who just happen to support HD DVD.
If HD DVD wins, Microsoft are going to control your living room just like they control most PCs today. With Bluray, we have a chance to get some good open source tools for hacking the Java based software and menues.
Re:Sony might have blown it with PS3 delay (Score:2)
Re:Toshiba pushing HARD (Score:4, Insightful)
HD DVD on Vista
Toshiba releasing a laptop reasonably soon with HD DVD
cheaper MSRP ($499 vs $999 and $799 vs $1799)
Sony is releasing first round of writable blu-ray disks that are slow (2x) and smaller than first release HD DVD (25 GB vs 30 GB)
Studios and electronic manufacturers increasingly hedging their bets.
Delay of PS3
I'm really beginning to believe that, once again, Sony competition (HD DVD) will become the "normal" standard with Blu-ray being the standard for those with a Sony PS3 or Sony-compatible hardware. Statistically speaking, that's exactly what has happened in the past with various degrees of success (Beta, Memory Sticks, Mini-discs, UMD, etc.)
Re:Sony's culture is a disaster for this (Score:2)
Without speaking to the "statistics," it sure does seem like whenever you go with Sony you have to swallow hard about the more expensive format of whatever it turns out to be. Just about the only exception in my life is my cheaper, kids' camcorder -- which happens to be the one case I've considered where they went with the same digital tape, and compression, ever
Re:Toshiba pushing HARD (Score:2)
Umm pardon me if I've missed something, but is the first generation of HD DVD burners dual layer? Or are you comparing the 30GB pressed platters to 25GB writable? And given how dual-layer DVDs have turned out, I'm not so sure if that's a big issue...
DVD still King! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:DVD still King! (Score:2)
Re:DVD still King! (Score:2)
Then I could watch recorded HD shows on my DVD player.
Re:DVD still King! (Score:2)
Both DivX and XviD comply to the MPEG-4 Advanced Simple Profile (ASP). H.264 is also known as MPEG-4 Advanced Video Coding. There are many parts to MPEG-4, and each part has different profiles; I'm a little unclear on all the boundaries. However, all three DivX, XviD, and Apple's implementation of H.264 are standards based.
The only way to sell your product (Score:5, Interesting)
By supporting both, you can convince people to buy, because no matter which format it's going to be, you will be able to play it. If they cannot see where the balance is going, they will not buy at all. Not having something is still better than having something that has no support anymore in a year.
Thus the strongest pushers in one or the other direction, insisting on supporting only one format, are not going to sell many of their players.
And, in turn, of their consoles. Sony will most likely only support BluRay in their PS3. If BluRay loses the format war, this would be a serious blow to their sales.
Re:The only way to sell your product (Score:3, Insightful)
DVD != Computers (Score:2)
It is very true that the first to come will be the first to be bought. Especially HD-DVD has a huge advantage, having the well known "DVD" in its name. The connection "HD-DVD == new DVD" will be made more easily than "BluRay ==
Still it isn't as bad as it is in the comp
Re:DVD != Computers (Score:2)
Good point, possibly because most people today remember something of the VHS vs Beta fiasco.. then again, someone had to buy those last few Betamax machines off the line.
GOOD! (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole war died when everybody started supporting both formats. Here's hoping the HD/Blue war will die without a shot fired.
Re:GOOD! (Score:2)
I convinced myself that + was good, and - was evil, so supporting + was a good thing. Now with the dual drives, they sort of cancel each other out. It is sort of like google's motto "do no evil" - sure that is ok, but not as good as "
Re:GOOD! (Score:2)
DVD -- schmevedee (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyway, that's todays rant about the state of modern culture all done with. I feel better already.
Re:DVD -- schmevedee (Score:5, Funny)
Re:DVD -- schmevedee (Score:3, Informative)
You do know the resolution of a printed book is an order of magnitude greater than any screen, yes?
Re:DVD -- schmevedee (Score:2)
Oh wait, weren't we supposed to be talking about something else? I recall something about blue disks...?
Re:DVD -- schmevedee (Score:2)
I agree with you, I could care less for commercial movies, but it would be nice to make home movies in HD.
Re:DVD -- schmevedee (Score:2)
In My Father's Den [imdb.com] One of thousands of recent movies worth watching.
Just because something isn't advertised on T.V. doesn't mean it's illegal.
Re:DVD -- schmevedee (Score:5, Funny)
How many? (Score:5, Insightful)
I imagine most /.ers will avoid both formats until there is a clear winner, and the prices drop.
Re:How many? (Score:2)
Maybe this would be a good thing, if a lot of people buy them, and then return them when they don't work. Might get some people thinking.
None. (Score:2)
Re:How many? (Score:2)
You'll be require to hook them into digital jacks just to make it work....
on a side note...I so totally agree about people with fancy equipment hooking into legacy jacks. I have a Cisco buddy that has his Xbox and dvd player connected via composite cables. He then wonders why my xbox on the same 65" tv looks so much better....component video wonderful stuff.
The new DVD formats suck (Score:2, Insightful)
sorry to burtst your bubble (Score:2)
Upgrade to the more constant Xvid format! (Score:5, Informative)
The unfortunate part is that you can't buy these superior Xvid files, because none of the companies that sell TV shows are willing to sell such a great product. Luckily, "torrent sites" have filled the gap in the market. They're against the law (assuming copyrighted content, that is...), but superior.
Re:Upgrade to the more constant Xvid format! (Score:3, Interesting)
No, you can't buy them because you studios can't put any kind of DRM on Xvid files. That makes it a no-brainner for them.
No DRM = No studio support. End of story
-Eric
Re:Upgrade to the more constant Xvid format! (Score:2)
You can put a DRM wrapper on any type of file you want.
End of story.
Re:Upgrade to the more constant Xvid format! (Score:3, Informative)
No you can't, smartass, because Xvid is open-source under a GNU GPL license. That means you couldn't wrap the format in any DRM format which restricts its open-source nature. In other words: Use Xvid, can't use DRM.
End of story.
-Eric
Re:Upgrade to the more constant Xvid format! (Score:3, Informative)
More important, as the other poster said, you could always simply use a different container, that included DRM, and drop Xvid and AC3 into it. You can embed Xvid
Re:Upgrade to the more constant Xvid format! (Score:2)
Re:Upgrade to the more constant Xvid format! (Score:2)
You CAN do it, sure. But it would be a violation of the license. Whether you had the $$ to fight it out in court or not is the practical issue (I seriously doubt any open source project could put up much of a legal challenge). But why bother with all this when you could just use a proprietary format?
-Eric
Re:Upgrade to the more constant Xvid format! (Score:2)
Now, do I put these Xvid files on HDDVD or Bluray disks? Instruct me!
Re:Upgrade to the more constant Xvid format! (Score:2)
And the market hath spoken, and it was good.
Amen.
Whichever format has 1st cheap enough burner wins (Score:5, Insightful)
This must mean an 8.5 GB Dual Layer price drop! (Score:2, Insightful)
Upsampling DVD trumps all... (Score:4, Informative)
You can buy an upsampling DVD player at your local electronics store for a tenth of the price of a blu-ray or hd dvd player, and then you can sit on the sidelines and watch the current format war wage, and save yourself some money.
Re:Upsampling DVD trumps all... (Score:2)
Thanks, Professor! :-)
Re:Upsampling DVD trumps all... (Score:2)
Re:Upsampling DVD trumps all... (Score:2, Informative)
That said I won't be buying one for quite a while as I think it's going to be a long, stupid, battle until one format finally emerges as a
Re:Upsampling DVD trumps all... (Score:2)
Re:Upsampling DVD trumps all... (Score:2)
Re:Upsampling DVD trumps all... (Score:2)
Re:Upsampling DVD trumps all... (Score:3, Informative)
My old set created extra horizontal and vertical lines that were halfway between the surrounding real lines. So if you had
blk|wht|blu
blk|wht|blu
red|wht|blu
it would upsample to
blk|gry|wht|ltb|blu
blk|gry|wht|ltb|blu
blk|gry|wht|ltb|blu
dkr|rgr|wht|ltb|blu
red|pnk|wht|ltb|blu
The result was seamless video that looked excellent.
Re:Upsampling DVD trumps all... (Score:2)
True, but there are better ways to go about upscaling (various interpolation algorithms) than simply making the pixels bigger (nearest neighbor). See Gleicher, Michael. A Brief Tutorial On Interpolation for Image Scaling. 1999. [wisc.edu]
That is to say... (Score:4, Insightful)
I other words "Still No News on the DVD Format War".
I'll just pick up a Playstation3 and hope Blu-Ray wins out.
Re:That is to say... (Score:2)
Won, Hell?!?! Neither one of these has even been RELEASED yet.
Hell, no one has even *SEEN* a PS3. It will probably be another year before it is even released in the U.S.
Blu-ray was once the clear leader in the format race. But in the last few months, it's been one misstep after another for them. HD-DVD is looking better and better.
-Eric
The purchasing public is pretty smart... (Score:5, Interesting)
I think the new generation of what becomes the evolution of the digital versatile disk [wikipedia.org] will have to pass the BetaMax test. Most folks who have the money to purchase "the next big technology" of video interaction have either experienced or heard about the VHS vs. BetaMax battle. Without exception, the people to whom I have spoken (about next-generation "DVD") have said, "I'm waiting until the dust settles, and then I'll start thinking about buying one of the new-technology devices." The second thing they have said (again, without exception) is, "I hope the players will play my stack of old-format DVDs."
I have the strong feeling that the manufacturers and implementers will fight it out, and the consumer will watch and wait. Whomever wins out will get the lion's share of the "going forward" business.
Something that is very important to me: I hope that the "battle" will be short-lived. Here's to hoping that once things settle, the economies of scale and availability will make the next generation DVD-type disks (and players) quickly affordable.
Re:The purchasing public is pretty smart... (Score:2)
In the end, this looks like it might turn out like the DVD-R/DVD+R battle. General consumer confusion and annoyance until everybody just goes out and builds dual format hardware.
Cost difference? (Score:2)
So if manufacturers make devices that will support both HD formats, how much more expensive will those be than devices which support only one format? (Obviously most if not all the devices will support legacy formats from CDs to DVDs).
Re:Cost difference? (Score:2)
This is the reason why manufacturers were much happier about HD-DVD than Blu-Ray--they can produce HD-DVD on the same lines with much the same equipment as normal DVDs. Blu-Ray requires muc
So - (Score:4, Insightful)
After all, these competing standards only matter if you have a HDTV (which I don't plan to have until around, oh, 2009 or so - about when the current one dies and I need something else to play "Final Fantasy XVI" on - or hopefully "Zelda: Twilight Princess" by then.
So I plan on just sitting back, letting both sides make asses out of themselves, and maybe this will wind up like the original Divx - a technology that nobody really wanted to buy.
Of course, this is just my opinion - I could be wrong.
Uhh, wait a minute (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is Blu-ray even interesting? Because sony supports it? I realize it is a superior format in terms of technology (not price), however, with companies jumping off the exclusivity bandwagon, HD-DVD may have already won. Sony must realize this.
Re:Uhh, wait a minute (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Uhh, wait a minute (Score:2)
Besides, being proprietary and overpriced has never stopped Sony before. Does anybody still have a Memory Stick or two somewhere?
Let the fight go on! (Score:4, Interesting)
Benefits of new format:
Disadvantages of new format:
If people start buying these things in droves, then the studios will be able to stop DVD production, and force the rest of us to use them too if we want any new content.
But, a combination of lack of clear benefits, together with excessive DRMing, and lack of a clear format winner, will hopefully mean that these players will be ignored and flop. In which case the studios aren't going to stop making DVDs even though they'd like to.
If they do take off, I can't wait for the first mandatory firmware upgrade that breaks a whole bunch of players. I'd love to see the studios explain what they are going to do about that.
Unless the DRM is removed (which isn't likely), then the only interest I have in this technology is watching it fail as a film format, then become available as a cheap data storage format for computers. Shame really, cos I like films.
Z.
Re:Let the fight go on! (Score:2)
And maybe they'll start being consistently encoded to fit 1 on a 4.7 Gig DVD or 2 in 4.7 or somehting like this and motivate them to stop encoding for the 700 mb traditional pirate format.
Re:Let the fight go on! (Score:2)
+/- RW all over again -- but there's a cost (Score:3, Interesting)
The whole DVD+-RW thing was a mess, but at least they're relatively similar formats, and a drive supporting both can be made reasonably cheaply.
The format war will fizzle -- but wouldn't it be better for everyone, including device manufacturers, if we skipped the nonsense this time?
HD on Regular DVD! (Score:3, Interesting)
Otherwise the larger format should win! (1 season = 1 disk sounds good to me)
Re:HD on Regular DVD! (Score:3, Informative)
enrichment (Score:2, Insightful)
Asked if consumers would have to buy their favorite movies again, Blu-ray spokesman Simonis said: "Of course! But it will enrich your life."
try, instead -
"Of course! But it will enrich [my corporation]."
Physical Media? What's That? (Score:3, Insightful)
You could make money out of this in the future (Score:2, Interesting)
Why ? Because there will be a day people cannot play that particular DVD-format because it has become obsolete. And if the content is very valuable (eg. family pics, movies, data) people will be willing to pay large sums of green to you if you are able convert it.
Not getting burned again (Score:5, Insightful)
Fast forward 4 (or 5) years. This format war is meaningless to me because neither player will work on my TV. I don't have any DRM enabled inputs because my TV was built before they existed.
I have an upconverting DVD player that only works with my tv because of some almost-hacks that disable HDCP and macrovision to allow the upconvert over component. Unless i can find a similar player that will allow me to bypass DRM, (I know, dream on) I won't be going HD DVD or Blu-Ray.
I'm the customer they want, but they can't have me since they stabbed me in the back last time.
Re:Not getting burned again (Score:3, Informative)
Reach around. You'll find it's a paperclip in your back, not a knife.
If you have a 4-5 year old set, it's probalby a 720p display, or a 1080i CRT.
If you have a disc that uses analog downrez (ICT), your image will get scaled down to 960x540 before being scaled up for output. Still more image data than DVD (720x480), with every pixel perfect (since each is nicely scaled down from 4 soure pixels). For a set of your vintage, you probably won't miss much with ICT.
Also, I
If they really don't want to affect the outcome... (Score:3, Interesting)
While including both isn't supporting one over the other, if they really don't want to influence the outcome, they should offer PC's with neither, either, and both, and let consumers decide.
By standardizing on both, they can affect the format war by pushing us towards a permanent lock-in on both standards. If people's PC's have both players anyway (without an option to save money and only get one), they might as well buy disks of either type, right? They can play them. Then they're never going to want to upgrade to new equipment that won't play all the disks they already own...
Supporting both is not an entirely neutral position. There are a lot of comments here about people waiting for someone to win the format wars before they buy. No one's ever going to win if consumers end up forced to support both formats if they want to support either.
Why no open-source format to answer these? (Score:3, Interesting)
Really, why not? There's already an open video codec (Theora) and people around here seem to have a pretty good idea of what they want (no DRM, as high-definition as possible).
Re:Who cares? (Score:2)
HDDVD and Blu Ray require more different hardware (most obviously being the lasers), making supporting both more expensive. I'd much rather they settle it and I only have to pay for support for the format that ends up mattering in the end.
Re:Who cares? (Score:2)
Try explaining this to my parents who just plain don't care that the disc is region coded. They expect to see a movie. Afterall it is a DVD, right? They have a DVD player, right? So why can't they play their content.
Given this, the whole Blu/HD battle is silly since most consumers won't care for either if they can't just go to the store and buy any movie.