Answers from 'Our Man in Jordan' 181
At the beginning of this month we sent your questions to Isam Bayazidi of Amman, Jordan. He's a Slashdot reader, founder of the Jordan Planet blogging community, and (I know this from personal experience) knows the best places to buy discount-priced computer components in his home town. Enjoy!
(1) Arab and Israeli communitiesby Yonkeltron
Is there any collaboration between the Arab and Israeli communities when it comes to blogging, Free/Open Source Software or general computing?
Isam:
I will start with the Open Source Software: Arabic, Farsi and Hebrew languages have many similarities which make them overlap in some areas with language support. Example is general Multi-Lingual support, and the BiDi (Bi-Directional) support of applications. Such similarities made it reasonable to communicate and collaborate in certain projects. A great example is the FriBidi library which was introduced by 2 Iranian developers, and now used by many open source projects, some of which originating from Israel. As well, there are Open Source volunteers from Israel who are working in BiDi support in applications (Ex. Wine) and one can find communication between individuals working on similar projects... Another example is the Arabic Wikipedia, as Arabic language is an official language in Israel, so there are contributors who work in both Hebrew and Arabic wikipedias..
As for Blogging, I am not sure if it would be accurate to call the blog collective from countries a community, because basically they are people with totally different opinions, each expressing it in his/her own space, so it won't be fair to characterise and generalize them. Nevertheless, you would see small blogger-interactions such as comments, track backs, tagging, and pingbacks happening between bloggers from Israel and other parts of the Arab world.
Now I am not sure I would call this "community-level" or "individual-level" interaction. I know that it is happening, because it makes sense in some cases. Nevertheless, I think that with no final solution for the middle-east issue in horizon, such cooperation will stay mostly limited, and won't rise to be a community-level cooperation..
(2)Straight Outta Casablanca
by Doc Ruby
You have solid credits for several "Arab versions" of modern software. The Mideast was where many technologies, like writing, urban living, astronomy and symbolic math were invented or mastered. What new uses of the Internet and open SW do you see originating in Mideastern hands? Which brand new apps are people in your world using in a way more familiar in the Mideast, which could make the jump to global popularity the way so much Western tech already has?
Isam:
In my opinion, the Arabs are in a completely different state than when those technologies were invented or mastered. At that time, It was the prime time for the Islamic culture, where other parts of the world were busy hunting witches and wizards. Today, Arab countries is in a knowledge crisis (Ref: Arab Human Development Report 2003) which appears in information reach, technology use, and thus effecting innovation. We should be more worried about meeting basic needs when it comes to knowledge and education, than to think about global reach, and having larger world influence.
Now talking about Internet and software, while there are a number of innovators from arab countries, leading in certain segments, niches. As well, you would find a general state of imitations for successful models and businesses, example: Arabic versions of many of the popular softwares and services: search engine, blog services, photo-sharing, iTunes-like music stores, arabic-centric versions of many of the Mashups, and so on. Once imitation is done, uniqueness may start to emerge, which is very likely to have global visibility and reach. I do not see that happening in the next 2-4 years, but again, who knows.
Regarding Open Source software, as long as adoption for the software is limited to individual level, and do not reach cooperate or governmental or even academia levels, I do not see that we will be seeing successful sustainable projects, as individuals and pioneers are met with great challenges and resistance from those who are supposed to support their efforts.
(3) Credible Sources for Arab Bloggers by tabdelgawad
As a founder of an Arabic (Jordanian) blogging community, what do you perceive to be the source of news most popular/trusted by Arab bloggers? Is it local, Arab (AlJazeera, etc), European (BBC, TV5, etc), or American (NY Times, Washington Post, CNN, Fox News, etc)? Is the Arab blogging community a large echo chamber for the latest and greatest western conspiracy theories, or is there genuine diversity of sources and opinions?
Isam:
With the aggregation, tagging, and news alert systems we have today, Internet as a whole is considered the primary source. It became easier to watch and track 100s of sources from all over the world, and filter what you might be interested in. Most of the Bloggers today are Internet savvy people, monitoring the media in general.
Nevertheless, Arab news sites such as Al-Jazeera, Al-Arabeya, and elaph are on the top Arab news sites that people refer to, comes along with them BBC Arabic service (which many consider the most credible).
It is needless to say that bloggers have a more open eye to the media of the west than the English speaking media in Asia, Africa, or Latin America. Reason would be a combination of both 1) International visibility for those western media 2) Arab bloggers being more focused and concerned about how the west perceive them than other parts of the world.
(4) Down to earth... how does it feel?
by TINGEA77
As an Arab, a Jordanian, a regular Slashdot reader, and a computer addict my self, I feel compelled to ask this question. But first a little about why I'm asking... I started my addiction when I was in Jordan at an early age in the mid 80's, and moved to the United States in the late 90's. So I think by now I'm out of touch with how things are advancing in our part of the world. I used to be considered as a knowledgeable geek, but that was a long time ago when I had more time on my hands. :(
My questions are (really it is the same LONG question:)
Now that online communities and computer volunteering (especially OSS) is growing on the highest rate in the western part of the globe, how do you see participation and understanding of such participation in Jordan in specific, and the middle east in general?
Do you see the Arab population is going toward a more active role, or maintaining a technology consumer role as it used to be in the old days? Do you feel that you are a loner in what you do and contribute? Or do you get a whole lot of "Hey man that is soo cool, how would I start contributing like you do?"
Last but not least, from your day-in-day-out interaction with the local-online-communities, when do you see us (Arabs) technologically maturing to a level where we can be a major contributing force in the OSS global community... is it happening now?
Isam:
Volunteerism within computer and online communities could be within the same levels as you would find in the west. But considering the Internet penetration, and number of people with DSL lines, you would find the number to be low. You would find many volunteer-based community sites on the Internet, ranging from general forums, community-news, Sport fan sites, tech support, mobile tips, and so on.
As for OSS volunteerism, one of the big challenges is the language barrier... it is almost a prerequisite to have good English language to be able to participate and contribute. This causes many of those who are potential volunteers to be driven away to communities that do not have this language prerequisite. Another aspect, is the university educational systems, which do not encourage, in fact some time discourage, students from being active in Open Source projects and communities. Lack of understanding and knowledge from most of the academia about what is Open Source, its benefits to their students and them, causes having generations of students who lack the understanding, or even sometime fear the participation.
A good thing is that there are some communities rising in Arab countries, with the focus of promoting Open Source and activism in the community. Example is Arabeyes project, which focuses on adding Arabic language support to Open Source programs, as well the NoISA project that came out of Jordan LUG, and many other projects that came out of LUGs (Egypt-Lug, Linuxegypt, Saudi LUG). As well, the Arabic Wikipedia is growing in size in terms of articles and community, making it one of the successful examples of collaborative projects in the Arab world.
One thing to note, is that I am no longer active, or having a leading role in either of the projects I was involved in before: Arabeyes, Jordan LUG, or Arabic Wikipedia. I still maintain good ties and relation with those communities, but I am no longer involved as I am shifting focus into different fields and communities.
(5) Exportation of Technology
by DaedalusLogic
A lot of people in the states are familiar with anti-export warnings on encryption technology:
Are their any technologies that the government of Jordan specifically mandates not be exported outside of its borders?
OR
How common is it that encryption technology that the U.S. Government asks not be used overseas is actually implemented "against their will"?
Isam:
I am no expert in that field. To start with, the top technology companies in Jordan are Microsoft/CISCO/HP/Oracle partners. The government itself have a partnership with Microsoft and CISCO on the high levels. Nevertheless, there are restrictions applied with exporting technology to Jordan from US companies. I am not aware of encryption-related restrictions and how they are handled. But I know that US export policy prevents having servers with large number of processors sold to companies or even universities in Jordan, powerful computers are just not present in server rooms here. The alternative had always been having multiple servers, with load balancing or clustering, to do a task that could have been done in one powerful machine.
I am not aware of any Jordanian export restrictions related to technology. Infact, some of my friends found that question funny when they read it in slashdot.. Jordan limiting export to US :) .. There are hardly any software or technology-related house here that could be working on sensitive projects, and even if they do, US funding and partnership will be a part of that project.
(6) Dilbert by Lev13than
I'm going to guess that office and IT environments around the globe probably share more in common than their superficial differences (language, decor, degree of automation etc...) suggest. Indeed, petty politics and general insanity are going to raise their heads regardless of your office's time zone. As such, how well does Dilbert [ dilbert.com], the quintessential North American corporate satire, translate into Arabic? Do you see your office in these cartoons? If not, is there an Arabic version that does a better job?
Isam:
Although I regularly follow Dilbert, because I didn't have a long office-work experience (I worked as on-my-own consultant for most of the time) I do not really relate to most of Dilbert management/office-related cartoons, nevertheless, most of my friends who are in the IT field, or large telecom companies tell me that they really relate to it, and swear by it.
Unfortunately, comics or cartoons are not very popular in this part of the world. There are no office/IT related cartoons known in the Arab world, as well, Dilbert is not even translated to Arabic. You won't find a half or full page of comic strips in Arab newspapers, but rather the political one-big cartoon.
(7) Stereotypes and those who would further them... by d3ac0n
Ok, Two-parter here...
1)As an Arab in today's world, how do you deal with those in the Western world who further the stereotype of "Arabs As Radicals"?
Isam:
What saddens me the most, is that the Media plays a great part in forming this image, and the general public do not take an extra step to verify or validate such image. The stereotype of Arabs go beyond the image of being Radicals, it starts by the believe that we are "totally" different, out-of-this world. Once people buy this, then any other mis-information will just easily get in the minds of ordinary people.
Another problem is the way the media highlight and focus on nationality, for example, every time Abu Musaab is mentioned, he is mentioned as "The Jordanian" or "Jordan-born" Abu Musaab, while in positive contexts, it is rare to have nationality mentioned, you won't hear in any news "The Jordanian Dr. Rima Khalaf Assistant Secretary General and Regional Director of UNDP" or "Jordan-born Usama Fayyad, the chief data officer and senior vice president of Research & Strategic Data Solutions in Yahoo". Such success models from Jordan (and I can go on and on for other Arab countries) are rarely associated with the country of origin when referred to in the media, making it easy for anyone to have a visual image of a radical when I first tell them that I am Jordanian, as they would think Abu Mussab, rather than Dr. Usama Fayyad.
d3ac0n
2) In addition how do you, as a forward-thinking Arab, address the issue of those in the Middle Eastern world that would seek to further the radical elements of Islam for thier own purposes, regardless of the consequences or the stereotypes this may create in the West? In other words, how does one function as a concientious objector in Middle Eastern Society?
Isam:
I had something like 3 drafts to answer this question, and I came to the conclusion that I am no expert in that field to be able to give a good answer for that question... short answer: politicians and those seeking power would use anything, including religion, to empower themselves, and weaken their opponents.. We've seen this all over the world through out the history, not only in Islamic countries..
(8) Which is more important to develop...
by Viperion
A communication infrastructure, or a transportation infrastructure? I ask this because what my American viewpoint sees of the middle east is the seeming lack of mass-transportation systems like we have in American (highways, railroads, and the like.) The Middle East also seems to lack a stable communication infrastructure, especially to rural areas. Which do you think is more important, communications or transportation?
Isam:
Transportation comes first. Being able to go to school or work, have goods and food reach you is part of life basics.. once that is fulfilled, definitely communication comes.. with proper communication it doesn't matter where you are working from.. Talking about Jordan, we currently have a good road infrastructure, and an acceptable transportation system, so now there is great focus on communication. There are many projects in that field, such as inter-university fiber connection, the broadband-to-schools, and PC-to-every-home projects.
(9) Cartoons and website defacement
by Weaselmancer
So, what's your opinion on the arabic kids who are defacing websites in protest to the Mohammed cartoons?
Isam:
Crackers who found an easy target .. Just like many others who point their guns on the wrong people. Myself, as much as I find the cartoons in question offensive, I think that the reaction caused even more damage to Muslims image than what some silly cartoons may do..
(10) Arabic hacker food by DarkClown
Pizza and some caffeinated beverage with an occasional foray into sushi are typical geek food in the west - what is finding its way down the typical arabic chair dwellers gullet?
Isam:
Arabic and Turkish Coffee comes as the top source of caffeine from most geeks, as for food, a mixture of Falafel and Shawarma would be the applicable food for Jordanians. I am not sure about other parts of the Arab world.
(11) Impact on lifestyles
by tomhudson
I know that here, many people are spending an inordinate amount of time on the computer, to the point where it has negatively impacted their time spent with people in social settings (iow - people are becoming less social). Blogging is yet another time sink, on top of the web, email, etc.
Do you foresee the same negative long-term effects in the middle east as we've experienced?
Isam:
Well, people here are extra-social, so maybe being less social will introduce some balance :) kidding.. well I am sure that there will be always those who spend the days and nights of their weekends playing World of Warcraft (I know one :) ), spend their evenings writing or playing with PEAR components, or read and digg blog posts .. but I do not see a "long-term" effect happening because of this as technology spread is limited, at least for the foreseeable future. From what I see, from people I know and myself, spending time in front of a computer took time from TV or book reading rather than socializing..
(12) Arabic-translated open source software
by typical
I know that a number of people work on doing translation work for various languages -- as a whole, what is the state of Arabic-translated open source software? Is it possible for someone to work on a Linux desktop fully within Arabic, or is it necessary to use English?
Isam:
Arabeyes Project is currently leading the Arabization of Open Source software. When the project first started, it focused on the GUI interfaces (KDE, Gnome) and lots of effort was put into it (99% of KDE is translated, while only 43% of Gnome is, probably because it wasn't updated to the most recent version of Gnome). Today, volunteers focus more on the major applications, such as "Debian Installer", "Firefox", "OpenOffice" and so on. Looking at the statistics and activity today in Arabeyes, I would say that the lack of awareness of the importance of the project had caused having small numbers participating. Many of the translation projects are inactive, or with very small activity, making it lagging specially that Open Source software have a short release cycle, making a 8 months old translation out-of-date. Another problem is that that Arabic translation projects need is to get the interest of other profiles of users. Currently most of translators are in the IT-related field, and most are students.
Now while it is possible to work on GUI linux in Arabic and have almost all the basic application in arabic interface, with the fast advance in the Open source applications, and the slower movement in the translation effort, the gap might go large at certain times of the software and release lifetimes.
thanks isam (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:thanks isam (Score:2)
Re:thanks isam (Score:1, Insightful)
Jesus, why do people have such a hard time understanding other people? It's so simple, just step back, and look in the mirror.
Re:thanks isam (Score:3, Interesting)
Also, I'd like to add that much of the media at least in the west has essencially become a governmental entity (not ruled by the government, but they have quite a bit of control over the opinions and ideals of the general populace), and as such are just as much power-hungry as the political class, in that they will exploit most anything in order to gain attention and standing. I think this is one of the reasons cultural misconceptions have kept gaining ground recently, especially now
Re:thanks isam (Score:3, Insightful)
In the US government there are lots o
Re:thanks isam (Score:2)
Re:thanks isam (Score:2)
Re:thanks isam (Score:2)
Re:thanks isam (Score:2)
The whole social experiment of the United States was to destroy the link between economic class and heredity. From your list above (three out of nine) it would appear that the experiment is working- until you notice that the ENTIRE list was extremely wealthy before 1975, and that all of these men spent millions on their campaigns that had to come from someplace. Let me know when a guy who spends $100,000 on his campaign gets elected to
Re:thanks isam (Score:2)
It's more the sum of past experiences for a person and availability of new experiences as well as attainability of different material goods.
Thus Ronald Reagan would be considered solidly upper class post-acting-career despite being born low class.
Class mobility is much easier here (in America) in that sense, the studies indicating class mobility is difficult and/or getting more difficult are mainly reflecti
Re:thanks isam (Score:4, Informative)
I'll bite - all of them!
George W. Bush: $13,000,000
Bill Clinton: $930,000
George H. W. Bush: $2,000,000
Ronald Reagan: $4,800,000
Jimmy Carter: $2,200,000
Gerald Ford: $1,100,000
Richard Nixon: $1,300,000
Lyndon Johnson: $19,000,000
That's 40 years' worth of presidents. Info courtesy of Forbes, from their estimates of presidential wealth when in office.
-h-
Re:thanks isam (Score:2)
A few possible explanations:
Clinton not even a millionaire??? Yes, Arkansas is a poor state, but come on, he was Governor for how long? I would think his private residence (if any) would be worth ~$1 million [e.g. an old southern large home]. Something is really fishy here... [Unless Hillary owns all the property, LOL].
And I question Bush,Sr's w
Re:thanks isam (Score:2)
Cabinet secretary salaries are about $170,000 a year. Running the CIA probably qualifies for that pay level - it definitely doesn't pay more. Good money, but nothing to build a vast fortune with.
Incidentally, the president's salary is $400,000 per year - again, pretty good money, but that's not why they ran
Re:thanks isam (Score:2)
As you said at the end, "folks are folks, wherever". Does you really need evidence to show this?
Geek Fuel (Score:3, Interesting)
Great! So much for working fuel. How hard is it to get beer?
Re:Geek Fuel (Score:2)
Beer in Jordan? I'm pretty sure it's legal. It's not Saudi Arabia or anything...
Re:Geek Fuel (Score:2)
I had a few when I was in Aqaba. The story that I got was that there is only one brewery in the country. It wasn't good beer, but it was cold and wet. It also had a picture of King Hussein on the label.
-h-
Re:Geek Fuel (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm hardly an expert on Islam, but iirc the different sects have differing levels of strictness with respect to alcohol (e.g. some forbid everything, others are ok with the fermented stuff like beer/wine). Jordan is a constitutional monarchy, not a Sharia state, so afaik there would be no a priori restriction on it from an official standpoint. Of course, (according to the cia world fact book, fwiw) the population is about 92% Sunni. I don't know what their cultural attitudes about it might be and what th
Re:Geek Fuel (Score:2)
Re:Geek Fuel (Score:2)
Re:Geek Fuel (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Geek Fuel (Score:3, Insightful)
to Muslims.
Re:Geek Fuel (Score:1)
Re:Geek Fuel (Score:2)
Re:Geek Fuel (Score:2)
I realize that Muslims differ on their interpetations of this, but teetoalling doesn't necessarily imply fundamentalism. It may be possible to make a guess in some contexts (e.g. Turkey), but not generally. I know some rather liberal muslims who won't even touch food that has had a dash of wine in it, even though the amount of alcohol you get is probably less than you'd get fro
Re:Geek Fuel (Score:2)
If a jew does not go out on the sabbath they are called "orthodox" which to me is no different then "fundamentalist". The same for muslims that don't drink. They are relying on a strict interpretation of an ancient text.
Re:Geek Fuel (Score:2)
Northern Africa used to (and still does in lots of places) produce (and consume) lots of wine and various liquors for example.
It's under the recent (a few tens of years) hardening of religious rules that the interpretation changed to totally forbid alcohol.
Re:Geek Fuel (Score:2)
You mean the concept of underemployment hasn't hit Jordan yet?
From the Dilbert question: (Score:5, Funny)
I see our man in Jordan is a fan of understatement.
Re:From the Dilbert question: (Score:2)
Re:From the Dilbert question: (Score:2)
Re:From the Dilbert question: (Score:2)
Re:From the Dilbert question: (Score:2)
Cheapest computer store in town (Score:1, Funny)
I have no problem finding the best place to buy my computer components in my home town... there's only one computer store.
Re:Cheapest computer store in town (Score:2)
Jon Katz (Score:2, Funny)
Saddens him most? (Score:3, Insightful)
I find this rather insulting, and rather telling. It saddens him the most that the media is forming the image? How about the freaking TERRORISTS that form the image? And it doesn't "sadden him the most" that there is so much arab radicalism that causes all arabs to be painted with the same brush?
(Almost) everyone knows that not every arab supports the terrorists. But to deny that there are grains of truth at the core of the portrayal of Arabs is to deny reality. Arab radicalism is a huge problem right now, and it's going to take Arabs like him to stand up and tell their own people to shut up, sit down, and stop killing people.
Gah! It angers me to see things like this, like it's some western conspiracy to paint Arabs in a bad light.
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:3, Insightful)
Truly, your post was hilarious, although I'm not sure if you meant it as a caricature of racism, or if it reflects real hatreds you have.
Original comment: It saddens me to see the media paint the billion arabs as evil, because a few fight back against the US, sometimes in hideous fashion
Your comment: But, they're almost all truly evil, because of what I see on the media, so how can you criticize the media?
Hehe, hilarious.
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:4, Informative)
Radicals? You mean like the reformed government of Afghanistan, who now has a man on trial for converting to Christianity over a decade ago, and are now trying him for this crime against Islam. Punishment being sought? Death.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/21/afghan.
Yes, the media sucks... but sometimes the source of their hype sucks worse.
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Saudi Arabia (Score:2)
And how has this money changed the Saudis? Osama Bin Laden was born into billions. I spent a lot of time in Saudi Arabia. What I saw was a 5 years old boy crashing and dying while driving an expensive Toyota Land Cruiser because mom wasn't allowed to drive. I saw a very classy shopping mall that only Saudis could shop in, the indentured slaves had to shop in the slum district. I saw an
Re:Saudi Arabia (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Saudi Arabia (Score:2)
1) The immigrant is taken advantage of and comes to resent it.
2) The job replaced is not a throw away job. Yes a citizen might want more money, but if the job is needed it will be paid and the cost past on. Americans have done manual work for years just look at miners in West Virginia, the idea that they are doing work citizens won't is stupid.
3) Many illegal
Re:Saudi Arabia (Score:2)
You are aware that many workers are banned from entry because of their religion or lack of. Athiest, Jews, Bahai's are
Re:Saudi Arabia (Score:2)
What the hell kind of reasoning is that?
Are you saying that repression of women is (more) OK, because men are
Re:Saudi Arabia (Score:2)
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
This is both good news and bad news.
On the one hand, Iran is a highly-educated society that values learning and knowledge, which I think is important for sensible political development.
On the other hand, the fact that you've met so many such people is a symptom of the brain drain that has been going on for decades now. Smart, capable Iranians leave the country, because their talents are
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:5, Insightful)
Basic math skills will show that the vast majority of Muslims are not involved in this radical behavior. Try this: Total Number of Suspected Terrorists in the Muslim World divided by Total Population of Muslims. Then compare that with: Total Number of American Incarcerated for Violent Crime divided by American Population. You'll find that the second number is larger than the first. Do you go around saying that Americans are blood-thirsty savages? Do you talk about the Irish the way you talk about Muslims based on the behaviour of the IRA? How about the Basque because of the ESA?
Note I'm not saying Muslim radicalism isn't a problem. I'm saying it is unfair to criticize Muslims in general for the actions of a small minority. To paraphrase Ann Frank: "What one Christian does is his own responsibility, what one Muslim does is thrown back at all Muslims."
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm sorry- but my reading of the Koran suggests that this would be 100%. But then again- I think the same thing of Christian Fundamentalists.....I don't know any truly moderate Muslims. Anybody who thinks being called "People of the Book" isn't an insult is far more fundamentalist than most Christians I know, for instance.
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2, Insightful)
Take for example the "cartoon riots". Now, the rioters are themselves a tiny minority. What about THEIR supporters? The very limited response condemning the riots suggests that for every active rioter there are thousands who consent to and support the riots tacitly, morally, and verbally within their communities.
What rioter is going to act against the censure of his own c
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Not to Goodwin this thread or anything, but...
It only takes a handful of radicals to lead a greater moderate majority into doing some of the worst atrocities of all time. Just because the majority is moderate, doesn't mean that they will go along wiht the extremists.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Ge rman_Workers_Party#General_membership [wikipedia.org]
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
As a Japanese man, I find it funny how many western geeks seem to think Japan is a country of sex-crazed otaku who live with realdolls and whack off to rape porn. Of course, Japanese think westerners are evil sex fiends because so many westerners who go over there seem to be obsessed with such things, or sex, or Asian women, and because of some high-profile rapes commited by American servicemen. Eac
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2, Insightful)
The difference is intent (why do I need to explain this? It's insane). The suicide bomber intends to kill civilians. The US intends to kill a military target. It's an unfortunate truth that sometimes civilians are killed along with a military target, but the true blame likes with the cowardly terrorists who hide among civ
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2, Interesting)
This has to be a troll, but it raises a wonderful philosophical argument: Who is worse? The man who kills of rage, or the man who kills of apathy?
It's also true that these "civilians" that are killed aren't all that innocent
Must really fuck up your day when you're having a meal and your fri
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2, Insightful)
No, if you know that by doing something you're going to - or likely to - kill civilians, then you have intent. I mean, isn't that what happens in criminal cases? If I intend to kill you and I miss and shoot your brother, I'm guilty of his murder. If my gun goes off by accident and kills him, it's not murder.
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2, Troll)
Not quite right. Here is how it is.
The suicide bomber intends to kill civillians because he lacks weaponry to attack military targets.
The US does not care if it kills civillians and is willing to kill as many as it takes if it MIGHT result in the death of target.
Of course the US is also willing to round up human beings all over the world and then ship them off to be tortured but that's another topic.
"It's also true th
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
I wish. If this were true, the Iraq war would have been over VERY quickly- in about the time it would have taken to retarget an ICBM, launch it, have it travel halfway across the world and the 12 cobalt warheads disperse around Iraq. If the key was simply to kill the target, that would have been the easiest way to get Hussien. It would also be the easiest way to get bin Laden
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
We destroyed a lot of the Iraqi infrastructure the first time we went on a rampage there. This of course caused widespread dysentery and disease because people no longer had access to clean water and sewage facilities. We of course didn't care because we had no intention of taking ove
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Yes, but apparently not enough- we had to return 10 years later.
This time around the goal was to occupy the country so we refrained from doing things like launching ICBMs and massive arial bombard
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Bush Sr made a decision to leave saddam in place and put the population under the worst kind of misery he could imagine. The idea was that if the people were miserable they would overthrow him. He miscalculated or he was dumb. Even though he was able to successfully destroy many water treatment plants, electricity facilities, sewage treatment plants, public buildings, hospitals, roads and bridges the people never took up arms. He also starte
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Surprisingly, it is still called "terrorism" when a suicide bomber detonates him/herself amidst Israeli soldiers. Those are not civilians, and being in a state of war, they are "legitimate" targets. (Note: I'm not advocating war or killing in any way, I'm just responding to your comments using the same logic).
The US intends to kill a military target.
And this makes it ok to kill a couple dozen innocent civilians in the process?? Using the same logic, is i
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
EXACTLY my point. As long as we respond to terrorist acts by attempting to bring "democracy" and "a better standard of living" to the area- those attacks will be seen as a success, and the attacks will continue. We must make it clear that the families of terrorists end up worse off, not better.
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
The problem there is that fighting terrorists is an all-or-nothing proposition; we would either have to commit genocide on a level never seen before in this world (and given our rather inadequate-to-the-job army, that would require nukes) or we need to disengage from the area completly, and leave the Arabs to deal with their own problem. I used to be for the second, but now I think we've gone too far with the inept,
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Wow, talk about skewed history. Now, if you want to say that Prescott Bush helped to fund the Nazis, you might be able to back that up with a few conspiracy theories, but you really managed to come up with something bizarre here.
-h-
Re:Saddens him most? (Score:2)
Not really- the first oil deals in the middle east were all arms for oil deals- and Prescott was up to his ascott in them. It's what created the wealth that both Georges eventually used to become President. Without those deals- we not only would not have had 9-11, but Ronald Rea
uh, fribidi was started by an Israeli (Score:2, Informative)
http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/fribidi/fribidi/AUTH ORS?rev=1.11&view=markup [freedesktop.org]
Dov Grobgeld
* Initial author.
and is now maintained by an Iranian.
Behdad Esfahbod
* Current maintainer, Added explicit bidi support, fixed all
conformance bugs, changed the library to use bitmasks, rewrote
many things, removed glib dependency.
Re:uh, fribidi was started by an Israeli (Score:4, Informative)
Our man in Jordan? (Score:3, Funny)
Brain Balance (Score:5, Insightful)
Meanwhile Europe and America have local labor who don't want to compete with Arab visitors who subsidize their lower costs with time spent back in cheaper Arab countries, invest in homes and retirements there, etc.
Is there a mutual development benefit to restricting foreigners from joining EurAmerican labor pools, rather than taking the easy way out with only small benefits to Arab workers? And if Arabs had to grow their own domestic info societies, would they also grow their own local democracies, to reflect the increasing power of their middle class?
Is the balance of benefit to the actual workers in each country closer to staying home than to the current brain drain? Is there a better way to get that balance than just keeping foreign labor from visiting the more developed countries?
Re:Brain Balance (Score:3, Insightful)
For every "brain" gone West there's a lot of management and technology and entropy in general that comes from the big companies that come into the country.
All those brains would have done almost nothing without the big companies to allow them to use their potential.
My country (Romania) is in the same position: a lot of talk about brain drain but nobody stops to think that neither windows nor linux not mobile telephony not even the simplest computer would have been
Re:Brain Balance (Score:2)
In the case of the EU, the question is really moot. Anti-immigration politics has been on the rise for many years now, and you'll only have a chance of immigrating if you're a refugee(*), have close family here(**) or can find some company who's really really good at selling you as a rocket-scientist-needed-for-innovative-economy. There's simply no places left to tighten immigration policy.
(*) And people
Re:Brain Balance (Score:2)
Arab humour (Score:5, Interesting)
They were some of the funniest people I ever met. They were able to come up with some hillarious puns in English even though it was their second language. How is that for a language skill? I've always been amazed at the mastery of the English language by Arab students, but I digress...
What gets me is the portrayal of muslims in the west, as people completely devoid of any sense of humour. It really could not be further from the truth.
If more westerners mingled with them, they'd realize just how sociable and interesting Arab people are. Of course, they have their own culture but they are much more open minded than the western media would make you believe. In fact they are far more open minded than most westerners I know.
Re:Arab humour (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd venture to say you didn't get a very accurate picture of the attitudes of the average Jordanian or Syrian (who likely is barely literate in his own language, and has no secondary education or meaningful exposure to a humanist worldview.)
Remember, anecdotes are not evidence.
Re:Arab humour (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Arab humour (Score:4, Insightful)
MY GOD, ARABS ARE PEOPLE!!!!
Re:Arab humour (Score:2)
Yeah, except you'd never have guessed that from the way they're shown in the western media.
Re:Arab humour (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd venture to say you have a very inaccurate picture of the average arab, you know, there are schools and universities in Jordan and Syria. They're not all peasants, the litteracy level in Jordan is over 90%
It doesn't mean all schools compare to Berkeley or Stanford, but it's much better than you think.
Re:Arab humour (Score:2)
Newsflash: (Score:2)
Re:Arab humour (Score:2)
Re:Arab humour (Score:2)
Good God, are you REALLY that stupid? Or was your post meant ironically, as in: "I have no exposure to a worldview of any sort"?
Re:Arab humour (Score:2)
Re:Arab humour (Score:2)
Re:Arab humour (Score:2)
Re:Arab humour (Score:2)
Re:Arab humour (Score:2)
You make it sound as if the West were out to portray muslim societies in a distorted way. But it's the way Arab societies present themselves: rules about drab clothes, clerics running the government, and severe penalties for minor transgressions, punctuated by the occasional raving lunatic terrorist on TV.
This is not the way the West traditionally viewed Mu
So how is this different? (Score:2)
This is different how? I have seen the same thing in how the media showed people in Northern Ir
cide them all! (Score:2)
You are absolutely right. A geocide is so much more final than a plain old 20th century genocide.