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Nintendo Shares Up, But Do Devs 'Get' the Wii?

Zonk posted more than 8 years ago | from the no-one-recognizes-a-revolution dept.

157

kukyfrope writes "Nintendo shares have jumped over six percent since the Wii's unveiling at E3 last week." Despite both Peter Moore and Phil Harrison recommending you should get a Wii, the future of Nintendo and the Wii aren't assured. Next Generation reports that third party developers may not really 'get' the ambitious console.

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Good Point (2, Interesting)

MBCook (132727) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338295)

I saw this earlier and he has a good point. There haven't been many games announced for the Wii by 3rd parties. Red Steel, Madden, Super Monkey Ball, and Sponebob are all I can think of off the top of my head. There will be more, but not at launch (we're not even sure about the above).

Nintendo will have a ton of great games (good for them, they usually have a few, things are looking great here) but while EA made out like a bandit on the 360 launch (Madden, Fight Night, Burnout, whatever) there is just Nintendo here.

Of course, if they could get Super Smash Brothers out at launch (instead of a few months later as I think they said) then they could really cream the competition.

A $200 system (just a guess) with a new Mario, Super Smash Brothers, Zelda, Metroid, Wario Ware, and a few other titles at launch. What gamer could possibly resist that?

Re:Good Point (4, Informative)

AuMatar (183847) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338317)

EA is also working on ports of its sports games. They are porting to the new controller as well, its been mentioned that in Madden passing will use the remote as a pointer and a tossing motion for the throw. It might make that the first Madden game I've bought in years.

Re:Good Point (1)

MaineCoon (12585) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339652)

From what I've seen and heard, its not a tossing motion, but a snapping motion; you just need to snap the controller forward like you were snapping a whip, rather than arcing it over your shoulder.

Re:Good Point (5, Funny)

scd (541350) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338402)

What games could possibly resist that?

The ones who are too mature, and need violence/sex all the time, that's who...

Re:Good Point (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338494)

Wow why don't I have mode points when I need them? That is one of the funniest things I have seen for a long time.

Re:Good Point (1)

Kirsha (201264) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339548)

The ones who are too immature, and need violence/sex all the time, that's who...

There, fixed it for you.

Re:Good Point (1)

scd (541350) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339581)

The bold was intended to denote sarcasm, which the 'funny' mods will attest to.

Frankly, I'm surprised it got modded so highly...

Re:Good Point (1)

minus_273 (174041) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338462)

Final Fantasy? Dragon Quest? both are major series.

Re:Good Point (2, Insightful)

Parham (892904) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339027)

As far as Final Fantasy goes, I don't think Crystal Chronicles is as popular as the main series. I don't see many Final Fantasy gamers bragging about that branch of the series, even though I think it was a pretty good game.

Re:Good Point (1)

badasscat (563442) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339425)

Final Fantasy? Dragon Quest? both are major series.

It's getting non-canonical side versions of each. A sequel to Crystal Chronicles, which is sort of FF-lite with multiplayer elements, and an action hack-and-slash version of Dragon Quest.

Neither of those games is going to move systems. The people who really want to play FF and DQ will still be buying the PS3, because that's the system Square Enix is going to put the proper games on. The people who buy FF:CC2 and the DQ sword game on Wii are going to be the people who only have a Wii and have no other choice if they want a taste of those series.

Re:Good Point (4, Informative)

Lave (958216) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338576)

There haven't been many games announced for the Wii by 3rd parties. Red Steel, Madden, Super Monkey Ball, and Sponebob are all I can think of off the top of my head. There will be more, but not at launch (we're not even sure about the above). The top off your head isn't the best place to decidie things like that. This is the official upcoming games list announaced at E3 As you can see they have a lot of support. 77 games announced before launch is amazing compared to the gamecube. (FYI: These aren't launch titles but are the first announced - they plan to have 20 titles at launch.) Disclaimer from the Nintendo press site - someone was kind enough to post their login details on a forum I use. These are copied and pasted from a pdf - hence the formatting problems - I'll bold the developers but I cant be bothered to arrange them:

Tony Hawk's Downhill JamTM MarvelTM: Ultimate Alliance Activision Call of Duty® 3 AQ Interactive Boxing Action

Atari Dragon Ball Z Budokai: Tenkaichi 2

Atlus Trauma Center: Second Opinion

BANPRESTO Family Action Game Disney's Chicken Little: Ace in Action

Buena Vista Games Disney's Meet the Robinsons

Capcom Resident Evil series SIMPLE series

D3Publisher Original Action Game

Eidos Title TBD Madden NFL '07

Electronic Arts Medal of Honor Airborne

EPOCH Title TBD From Software Action Game Genki Title TBD BOMBERMAN LAND

HUDSON SOFT Flight Game

JALECO Title TBD KOEI Sengoku Action Elebits

Konami Digital Entertainment Soccer Game Majesco Bust-A-Move Revolution BOKUJO MONOGATARI Heroes KAWA NO NUSHITSURI Marvelous Interactive Original Simulation Mastiff Mr. D. Goes to Town (working title) The Ant Bully

Midway Games Happy Feet New Vertical Scroll Shooting Game

MILESTONE New Action Game Character Action Game MTO SAN-X All-star Revolution FINAL FURLONG Mobile Suit GUNDAM SD GUNDAM G BREAKER DIGIMON ONE PIECE UNLIMITED ADVENTURE New Action Game New RPG TAMAGOTCHI

NAMCO BANDAI Games Title TBD

Natsume (developed by Marvelous) Harvest Moon Disaster: Day of CrisisTM Excite TruckTM Fire EmblemTM Metroid® Prime 3: Corruption Project H.A.M.M.E.R. TM Super Mario® Galaxy The Legend of Zelda®: Twilight Princess WarioWareTM: Smooth Moves

Nintendo Wii Sports Super Monkey Ball Banana Blitz

SEGA SONIC WILD FIRE

SNK Metal Slug Anthology Necro-Nesia Spike Jawa CODENAME: FINAL FANTASY® CRYSTAL CHRONICLES: Crystal BearersTM

SQUARE ENIX DRAGON QUEST SWORDSTM: The Masked Queen and the Tower of MirrorsTM Turn IT around!! Let's go by train!

TAITO Cooking Mama -Cooking with International Friends-

TECMO Super Swing Golf PANGYA The Game Factory Title TBD Avatar: The Last Airbender SpongeBob SquarePants: Creature from the Krusty Krab THQ Disney/Pixar Cars Action Game

TOMY Battle Action Open Season Rayman Raving Rabbids Ubisoft RED STEEL Vivendi Universal Games Title TBD

Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment Title TBD

Re:Good Point (2, Interesting)

MBCook (132727) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338701)

Those are all announced. While there are quite a few there, I don't think many of them will be big "must have" type titles. More important though is which of those are launch titles. We actually know very little about what is a launch title and what is not right now.

Re:Good Point (1)

badasscat (563442) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339483)

Natsume (developed by Marvelous) Harvest Moon Disaster: Day of CrisisTM Excite TruckTM Fire EmblemTM Metroid® Prime 3: Corruption Project H.A.M.M.E.R. TM Super Mario® Galaxy The Legend of Zelda®: Twilight Princess WarioWareTM: Smooth Moves

Wow, Nintendo's putting a lot of trust in Natsume and Marvelous to be outsourcing all those games!

Your list has more than formatting problems. These aren't third-party games, and you've also got Nintendo listed separately as a developer. So that's more than 10% of your list off right there.

Plus, most of those titles just aren't very exciting. I mean maybe some people are waiting for "Happy Feet New Vertical Scroll Shooting Game", "Sengoku Action Elebits", "Cooking Mama -Cooking with International Friends" or the ever-popular "Entertainment Title TBD", but I don't personally think this is a very impressive list.

I'll break it down for you a little bit, and separate out only third-party titles. The only games on this list that I think are worth waiting for at all are:

Super Monkey Ball Banana Blitz
Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles 2
Metal Slug Anthology (though this is hardly exclusive)
Sonic Wild Fire

If you're a mainstream gamer, you'll also want:

Madden 07
Tony Hawk's Downhill Jam
Call of Duty 3
Medal of Honor Airborne
Resident Evil

Possibly add Red Steel to that list (though it didn't have a very good showing at E3), maybe Rayman. But nothing else really jumps out at me.

There are some niche titles there that might find an audience in the US - Harvest Moon, maybe even something like Pangya! Golf - but these won't move systems.

Outside of Nintendo's first party stuff - which always seems a given for the reason why people buy any Nintendo system - there just aren't any real A-list titles. There's nothing with the power of a GTA or a true Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest or anything like that.

So what you're left with is pretty much the same situation as the GameCube. Remember, the GC had Madden at first, it had RE, it had Monkey Ball, it had Sonic, it had FF:CC, it had a lot of these titles and also other ones to fill some of the same niches as the smaller ones here.

So, you know, feel free to get excited about "Disney's Meet the Robinsons" or "Chicken Little: Ace in Action" - I won't stop you - but don't blame the rest of us if we're hoping for more.

Re:Good Point (1)

PyroMosh (287149) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339929)

There are some niche titles there that might find an audience in the US - Harvest Moon, maybe even something like Pangya! Golf - but these won't move systems.

Why? Because it's not to your tastes, and you represent gaming's "core"?

Nintendogs moved systems. It's hardly something that "core gamers" clammored for. It's hardly a game at all. This is Nintendo's stradegy. Games for everyone. Not "E" for everyone. Games that appeal to non-gamers and casual gamers and the hardcore alike. There will be titles for everyone.

Personally I'm excited about that Pilotwings looking game, Mario Galaxy, Bob Ross Painting, Super Monkeyball, Animal Crossing, Disaster, Bomberman Land, Zelda, of course, Warioware, Wii Sports, and Traums Center.

I could see myself buying as many of these games on launch day as are available and I can realisticly afford.

It's looking like it'll be a good launch. Half the titles I listed there could move systems. Mario games have before. Zelda has. And many of the others are the kitchey type of games that have sold so many DSes so far.

I think they'll do okay.

Re:Good Point (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15338599)

What gamer could resist? How about those who actually want to game instead of use a tacked-on gimmick. I'll take the PS3 any day, thank you very much. Then I know I'll get a hard core game console with traditional controllers like EyeToy and Dual Shake instead of something originally made to prolong the death of Gamecube.

Re:Good Point (1)

croddy (659025) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339150)

It took a while for developers to "get" the mouse as a gaming controller, but after iD released Quake, the mouse/keyboard combination has been the only FPS controller setup worth mentioning. Likewise, it will take a while for developers and gamers to accept the demise of the unwieldy playstation-style controller.

Re:Good Point (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15339459)

That whooshing sound that just went past above your head, that was the joke.

Re:Good Point (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15338680)

Spongebob Squarepants will be out sometime early in the Wii's life, but it won't be a launch title.

However, Rayman by Ubisoft will be.
As will Elebits by Konami.
As will Dragon Quest Swords.
As, most likely, will Call of Duty 3 by Activision.

Coming up before too long are an exclusive Final Fantasy title and an exclusive Sonic title, and if EA isn't already planning to give all their sports games the Madden Wii treatment they may decide to do so if Madden Wii sells well.

So, assuming no announcements are past or coming that I haven't heard about, the Wii lineup of 3rd party launch exclusives (assuming nonstandard control schemes allow me to count COD3 and Madden as exclusives) will be "just" Red Steel, Madden, Super Monkey Ball, Rayman, Elebits, Dragon Quest Swords, and Call of Duty 3. That's seven games from six different publishers. Seven games is as many games as the entire DS launch lineup in America. I'm not sure I see what the problem is here.

Re:Good Point (1)

Threni (635302) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338858)

> A $200 system (just a guess) with a new Mario, Super Smash Brothers, Zelda,
> Metroid, Wario Ware, and a few other titles at launch. What gamer could possibly
> resist that?

Good question. However, unless they are going to make a regular joystick available the answer is probably going to be "quite a few people". It looks a bit crap to me.

Re:Good Point (1)

XenoRyet (824514) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338895)

You may change your mind when/if you actualy get your hands on the new controller. It works much better and more intuitivly than you think it does...

Re:Good Point (0, Flamebait)

Threni (635302) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338993)

I'm sure all the motion detect stuff works great if you're into fishing or golf or whatever, but it is any good for normal games. It's bad enough that consoles don't include mice, but no decent joystick now?

Re:Good Point (1)

rjung2k (576317) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339033)

There's an analog stick on the nunchuck attachment. Nunchuk in left hand + remote (with buttons) in the right hand = regular gaming controller.

Re:Good Point (1)

pembo13 (770295) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338880)

According to Wii Ign:
  • August 2006 Madden NFL 07 Electronic Arts Sports
  • September 2006 Open Season Ubisoft Action Adventure
  • Fall 2006 SpongeBob SquarePants: Creature from the Krusty Krab THQ Action
  • Fall 2006 Disney's Chicken Little: Ace in Action Buena Vista Games Action
  • Fall 2006 Avatar: The Last Airbender THQ Action
  • October 2006 Blitz: The League Midway Games Sports
  • November, 2006 Midway Wii project [untitled] Midway Games
  • November, 2006 Trauma Center: Second Opinion Atlus Software Simulation
  • November 2006 Happy Feet Midway Games Adventure
  • November 2006 Disney/Pixar's Cars THQ Racing
  • November 2006 Ant Bully, The Midway Games Action
  • Rev Launch - November 2006 Red Steel Ubisoft Shooter
  • Q4 2006 Rayman Raving Rabbids Ubisoft Platformer
  • TBA Soulcalibur [next-gen sequel] Namco Fighting
  • TBA 2006 Killing Day Ubisoft Shooter
  • TBA 2006 Elebits Konami Action
  • December 31,2006 Dragon Quest Swords: The Mask Queen and the Tower of Mirrors Square Enix Action
  • TBA 2006 Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07 [TBA] Electronic Arts Sports
  • TBA 2006 NBA Live 07 [TBA] Electronic Arts Sports
  • TBA 2006 Metal Slug Anthology SNK Playmore Action Compilation
  • TBA 2006 Marvel: Ultimate Alliance Activision Action RPG
  • TBA 2006 Tony Hawk's Downhill Jam Activision Sports
  • TBA 2006 Sonic Wild Fire SEGA Platformer
  • Q1 2007 Medal of Honor: Airborne Electronic Arts Shooter
  • May 2007 Spider-Man 3 Wii Activision Action Adventure
  • Q2 2007 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2007 [Untitled] Ubisoft Action
  • Q3 2007 Transformers (2007) Activision Action
  • Q3 2007 100 Bullets D3 Publisher Action
  • TBA 2007 Pirates of the Caribbean 3 Buena Vista Games Action
  • TBA 2007 TNA iMPACT! Midway Games Wrestling
  • TBA 2007 Disney's Meet The Robinsons Buena Vista Games Action
  • TBA 2007 James Bond 007 Project [Activision] Activision Action
  • TBA 2007 Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 2 Atari Fighting
  • TBA 2007 Sadness *TBA Action Adventure
  • TBA 2007 Bob Ross: The Joy of Painting *TBA Productivity
  • TBA 2007 Call of Duty 3 Activision Shooter
  • Summer 2008 Beijing 2008 SEGA Sports
  • TBA 2008 Madagascar 2 Activision Action
  • TBA Simpsons [next-gen], The Electronic Arts Action
  • TBA Raid Over the River *TBA Shooter

They Will, Eventually (5, Insightful)

knight37 (864173) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338305)

Remember, when the DS first came out not that many third parties "got" the DS either, but now they do, and we're seeing tons of titles coming out for it. Developers will figure Wii out, and since it's such an innovative platform, developers will WANT to develop for it. I can see Wii having much better third party support than the GameCube did, even though it was generally easy for a quick "port" to the cube. We won't see those cheap ports on the Wii, but we'll see some actual games developed specifically with the Wii in mind. Sure, we'll see some gimmicky crap too, but "90% of everything is crap".

Re:They Will, Eventually (1)

foundme (897346) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338374)

I think if Wii really sold 10 million units in the first year, any dev will 'get' it.

Re:They Will, Eventually (1, Redundant)

christopherfinke (608750) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338499)

I think if Wii really sold 10 million units in the first year, any dev will 'get' it.
For the Wii to sell tons of units, there will probably need to be a good amount of third-party games. If no third-party games come out until many units are sold, then that would be a catch-22.

Re:They Will, Eventually (1)

ticacms (848481) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338644)

For the Wii to sell tons of units, there will probably need to be a good amount of third-party games. If no third-party games come out until many units are sold, then that would be a catch-22.
And that's why hype is THE thing console makers are loooking for... Just read this discussion and you'll see. Nintendo has nothing to fear.

Re:They Will, Eventually (2, Interesting)

BenjyD (316700) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338665)

Considering that the Wii launch titles seem to include the new Zelda, the long-awaited new Mario and Metroid Prime 3. That's got to be 5 million sales right there.

Re:They Will, Eventually (1)

falcon5768 (629591) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339059)

thats generally bullshit. The PS2 and the PS1 had absolutely NO third party support when they first came out. Infact I bought a PS2 without even buying a PS2 game because there where 6 games that launched with it, one being a shitty Square rushjob, and the others being sports titles.

Not to mention at that time Sony had NO first party games.

It was Sonys lower licensing pricing in comparison to Nintendo at that time, that got the third partys, something thats completely different this time around with the Wii being extremely cheap to license and develop for and the PS3 costing over 20,000 dollars just to get one dev machine and every one of the dev houses saying the PS3 is the hardest thing they have ever had to code in their lives.

Not really (1)

Midnight Thunder (17205) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339792)

For the Wii to sell tons of units, there will probably need to be a good amount of third-party games. If no third-party games come out until many units are sold, then that would be a catch-22.

Nintendo has already stated in the past that people often buy a console because of one title. If there are two good games for the Wii, then that will be enough for me. If the price point of the console is around $200, then it will be enough for a lot of people to put money down, simply because it won't hurt too much, even if they do get it wrong. On the other hand PS3's price point is enough to make anyone hesitate, so Sony depends much more on killer titles.

Nintendo DS (2, Interesting)

conigs (866121) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338306)

Wasn't this the same issue with the DS when it first launched?

If I recall (I'm too lazy to look anything up and I'm about to leave work), the DS had limited (if any) 3rd party support at launch. Everyone claimed the device was gimicky and no one would use it. It took a while before we saw games that took real advantage of the hardware.

I believe this is the case with the Wii as well. The first year of the device will see a lot of 1st party support with interesting games, but the 3rd party developers will use that time to figure out what the hell to do with it. Don't get me wrong, I fully intend on picking one up on or near launch (which I've never done for anything). However, I fully expect to only have a few titles that really make use of the new control scheme.

Re:Nintendo DS (1)

Rifter13 (773076) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338357)

I don't thikn that is 100% correct, but pretty dang close. :-) Most developers think in terms of what the controller can do. The Wii has a controller that no one really knows WHAT it can do. It is changing the face of video games... just like the DS, in many ways, changed how we view hand-held video games. The Wii should be successful, despite anything else Nintendo does to mess it up. (though, with their track record, they generally don't mess up).

It took them a while to "get" the DS. (2, Insightful)

blibbler (15793) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338318)

It took quite a few months before games that really took advantage of the DS's capabilities (the two screens as well as the touch capabilities) came out, but now the market is full of them, and the PSP is largely being ignored. It might take a while for developers to appreciate what the Wii can do, but hopefully they will make the most of it when they understand its potential.

Re:It took them a while to "get" the DS. (1)

uncoveror (570620) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339541)

And Nintendo themselves don't get the WeeWii. [uncoveror.com]

Oh, of course! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15338334)

They are *sure* to get it! $$$$

The problem is vastly different capabilities (5, Interesting)

DrDitto (962751) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338367)

The big problem is that game developers like to develop a game for all the consoles in a given generation. The hardware capabilities between the PS2, Xbox, and GameCube were different, but in the same ballpark.

Now I'm not a graphics guru and could be wrong, but to my understanding, this greatly eases the art pipeline-- for example textures and polygon counts could be the same size.

The problem with the Wii is that it is not in the same class as the Xbox360 and PS3.

Many people don't realize that for a given game, as much as 3/4 of the manpower goes into art and *not* code. Most developers leverage existing game engines. A friend of mine is on a project where they have ~ 40 artists and ~ 10 coders.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (1)

flooey (695860) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338447)

Many people don't realize that for a given game, as much as 3/4 of the manpower goes into art and *not* code. Most developers leverage existing game engines. A friend of mine is on a project where they have ~ 40 artists and ~ 10 coders.

I wonder if that has to do with the relative difference in automation and replication? For instance, you mention leveraging existing game engines, but as far as I know (which could easily be wrong), most models and textures are generated from scratch for each game. Perhaps there's an opening for "stock texture" companies in the game industry, along the lines of the stock footage companies in traditional media?

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (1)

James_Aguilar (890772) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339436)

When was the last time you saw a movie with any stock footage? No, even with game engines if the games feel too alike (I.e. not enough modification on the engine), then people end up feeling gyped. Certainly reusing textures is not a possibility, at least until we get to the point where we can use too many art assets for the user to remember, even subconsciously.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (4, Insightful)

egomaniac (105476) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338505)

You could just as easily argue that this is an advantage of the Wii -- games can be made by smaller teams on tighter budgets. That's one of the reasons Nintendo's handhelds enjoy such strong third-party support: it isn't a huge investment to develop a game for the GBA or DS, at least compared to the home consoles.

So if Wii is cheaper to develop for and has innovative features which get people excited about gaming again, it may mean that developers will be more amenable to the idea of developing for it. After all, nobody seems to mind that the DS doesn't have the same horsepower that the PSP does -- if they likewise don't care that the Wii doesn't have the same horsepower as its competitors, then developing for it is going to look very attractive.

Speaking only for myself, I don't really give a rat's ass that the Wii isn't as powerful as the competition. Sure, high-def support would have been nice, but saving $350 by getting a Wii instead of a PS3 is damned nice too. And as a jaded adult with a wife and kid who has very little time for gaming anymore, it's been really hard to get excited about games lately. Sure, I bought a GameCube and a PS2 and (eventually) an XBox, but I don't remember being really excited about any of them. The Wii, on the other hand, has me positively giddy with anticipation. I'll get a PS3 and an XBox360 after a few price drops when I have nothing better to do with my time and money. I'll get a Wii at midnight on launch day.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15338870)

After all, nobody seems to mind that the DS doesn't have the same horsepower that the PSP does

Actually, I heard that was the reason that the proposed Katamari Damancy DS got cancelled - the DS couldn't handle all the stuff that goes on in the levels and the changes in scale. This is why there's a PSP version, when the DS obviously has controls that are much better suited to it.
This probably applies to a lot of other games too. Look at all the games that get released on 2 or 3 home consoles plus the PSP... the DS would be on that list too if it could handle the same graphics.

Ultimately, I'm very happy with the DS, I'll trade horsepower for battery life, and the limited 3D encourages developers to keep making 2D games, and games that are tailored to the system (Nintendo has produced lots of amazing first-party stuff). However, missing out on all the cross-platform goodness like Outrun 2006 is a shame.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15339774)

There is nothing stopping anyone from developing a game with equally small teams and budgets on the 360 and PS3. There is no requirement to take maximum advantage of a console.

Development for Wii is only going to look very attractive if a lot of consoles are sold. If there is no one out there to buy your game it doesn't matter how cheap it was to develop. If PS3 ends up dominating this generation as well, it will be more profitable to develop for PS3 and port to 360 than make a game only for Wii, and that of course means fewer games for Wii.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (2, Insightful)

3.14159265 (644043) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338515)

as much as 3/4 of the manpower goes into art and *not* code.

Well, it seems to me that is precisely the game industry's major faux pas.
Everybody's just trying to copy bloody Hollywood instead of doing what they should: games.
Won't anybody think of the games??

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (1)

7Prime (871679) | more than 8 years ago | (#15340000)

Well, it seems to me that is precisely the game industry's major faux pas. Everybody's just trying to copy bloody Hollywood instead of doing what they should: games. Won't anybody think of the games??

Partly true. I don't think the main problem is an art vs. coding issue, but more of a design vs. development issue. So much of gaming is based off of very "safe" and tried and true conceptual designs, and then most of the time and effort is put into the development, be it visuals/sound or code. Gameplay elements are standardized, artistic theme and style is virtually pulled out of a grab bag of prefabricated concepts, etc. What's needed is a bit more risk taking in the design department, something that many large companies are afraid to do. Many times, smaller developers have the capabilities, by nature of being small and agile, and with less to lose, to be able to take more design risks... though their developement is usually sub-par, and their marketting is non-existant. Then it's up to the larger company to recognize a good idea, swoop down and put those ideas to good use (call it stealing if you want, intellectual propery rights are beside the point), give the game a budget where the development and marketting can be flushed out. With such a low premium on dev kits for the Wii, there will be a lot more small developers, a lot more undeveloped games with no marketting, but a much larger pool of designers for the larger companies to survey.

Hear me out, the Wii will probably have an incredibly huge number of crappy games, much more than any system to date, but out of that may come a lot better high-end games. A console is always judged by it's highest escellon of games, after all, how many people judged the NES by "E.T" or the slu of Barbie games that were released for it?

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15338572)

Want to know a Secret?

The Wii really isn't much less powerful then either the PS3 or the XBox 360, and in some ways (single thread performance) is more powerful. What the Wii's weakness is, is that the Wii contains a fixed pipeline on it's GPU; for those people that don't know what this means, the Wii does not support Programable Pixel/Vertex shaders.

If you look at the Red-Steel screens you'll see what I'm talking about; the geometry in the image will be as high as anything on the PS3/XBox 360, the Textures are as high resolution as anything on the PS3/XBox 360 and the Particle effects are as nice as anything on the PS3/XBox 360. When you compare screens you'll notice what is lacking is Normal Maps, and Material effects. Nintendo didn't include shader support because it costs a lot of money to produce Normal Maps and BRDFs (or other material functions).

Games will not be hard to port to the Wii, but they will never look as good as they do on the XBox 360 or PS3.

Mod parent -1 WRONG (2, Interesting)

Solra Bizna (716281) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338637)

The Nintendo Wii's video card does support vertex and pixel shaders. It just doesn't support really really advanced vertex and pixel shaders. Did you see the preview for Super Smash Brothers Brawl?

-:sigma.SB

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (3, Interesting)

Erwos (553607) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338686)

"the geometry in the image will be as high as anything on the PS3/XBox 360, the Textures are as high resolution as anything on the PS3/XBox 360 and the Particle effects are as nice as anything on the PS3/XBox 360"

This is, at best, wishful thinking. The Wii has very little in the way of texture memory - if they do what they did to the rest of the system, about a meg and a half, but let's assume it's really 10mb. The 360 has 512mb of shared RAM - presumably, more than 64mb of this could be dedicated to textures. The CPU is running at 729mhz last I checked, which is 1/3 of _one_ of the 360's cores - good luck trying to generate the same geometry. Even if you could, the comparatively low resolution (480p) is going to make it look like a jaggy mess - and there's not exactly much power to spare for fancy AA.

There is some serious delusion on the part of some Nintendo fans on how well this system is really going to be able to compete in the graphics department. I personally don't think it matters - Nintendo has obviously staked the system on the controller and Virtual Console, not the graphics. Whether that's a mistake or not, we shall see...

-Erwos

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15338778)

The Wii has very little in the way of texture memory - if they do what they did to the rest of the system, about a meg and a half, but let's assume it's really 10mb.

Uh.. what are you talking about? What did they do "to the rest of the system"? The Wii's memory specs haven't even been officially announced yet. It could be 512 kB, it could be 512 TB. No matter what it is, you're placing too much value on raw numbers. The Gamecube had 24 MB of main RAM and about 4 MB of RAM on the video card, and it looked better than the PS2 and comparable to the XBox, which had 64 MB of shared memory. Hell, the Dreamcast's picture quality was better than the PS2, but guess which console got trounced on? Raw numbers mean nothing.

You're comparing those numbers against typical PC specifications in your head, which is completely inaccurate. I remember that MechWarrior 2 was just barely playable under Windows with 32 MB of RAM, and the Gamecube was certainly capable of much, much more advanced games. Did you know that the SNES' main processor had a maximum speed of 3.58 MHz? I dare you to find any other system with a clock speed of 3.58 MHz that could compare.

In short, again: STOP SUCKING SONY'S AND MICROSOFT'S GIANT NUMBER-COCK.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (1)

Araxen (561411) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338923)

You also have to remember the Wii isn't designed a HDTV like the Xbox 360 or the PS3. Games will looks miles better on those systems with a HDTV. On a regular TV I would guess the Wii will look better than the 360 or the PS3 just because the ps3/360 will have to dither the graphics.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (1)

iocat (572367) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339029)

Wii can do 16:9 at 480p. Anyway this article is stupid. Third parties have been hot on Wii since at least December. It may not show at E3, but publishers are in love with Wii.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (1)

Jeff DeMaagd (2015) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339711)

You also have to remember the Wii isn't designed a HDTV like the Xbox 360 or the PS3. Games will looks miles better on those systems with a HDTV.

It looks to me that Sony and Microsoft are betting on an HD display revolution. If it doesn't happen in the next generation, and the Nintendo is a lot cheaper for not being HD or most people won't pay for HD, then Nintendo gets a strong advantage.

On a regular TV I would guess the Wii will look better than the 360 or the PS3 just because the ps3/360 will have to dither the graphics.

Dither the graphics? I suppose that would have to be a use of dither that I'm not familar with. If you meant scale, then OK, but with good downscaling of 720p to 480p (or 480i) shouldn't net noticibly inferior image such that an image generated natively would be a significant advantage, expecially on 480i when most NTSC sets aren't that great anyway.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (4, Informative)

Cadallin (863437) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339232)

There are several things wrong with your post:

1. Texture memory - Yes, the Revolution has less memory overall, (estimates about final numbers are between 96-128MB. HOWEVER (!) this memory is all 1T SRAM, i.e. it's really fucking fast, and the system is using a UMA, plus each of the individual components have reasonably big on-die caches, so the Revolution has a very decent, SPEEDY (Faster than DDR2, and RAMBUS), memory sub-system.

2. Information indicates that the revolution's main CPU is a faster clocked version of the chip in the Gamecube, which is a slightly customized POWERPC G3 chip. On the other hand, the cores of the Cell, and the Xbox 360 are known to be the same design and are in many ways extremely cut down, to such an extent they they are less capable than the initial 1993 PowerPC cores. The Revolution's G3 has a MUCH higher IPC than the CPUs in the competition. As a result a more accurate comparison would be to say that it probably around 1/2 as powerful as one such core.

3. Given the Gamecube GPU's proven graphical prowess, and that it is known that the Revolution's GPU is a faster version of that chip, YES, there will be power to spare on AA, especially at 480p. Also, you seem to be confused, Jaggies get worse as you INCREASE resolution. So all things being equal, at 720p a scene will look more jaggy than at 480p.

That lower resolution also means that requirements are lower across the board. One can simply look at GC titles like "Resident Evil 4" and the release screen for Twilight Princess, plus the knowledge that the Revolution has headroom to improve on that, and rest confidently that the revolution will look just fine

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (2, Informative)

Erwos (553607) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339639)

The 360's RAM is higher bandwidth than the Wii's. 1T-SRAM was impressive when the Gamecube came out - it's not so much anymore.

The 360 (and PS3) is also using a PowerPC architecture chip, but architecture does not inherently impact IPC. Your entire point makes no sense. Unless you can give us some actual benchmarks, it's easier to simply assume they have the same IPC. In any event, it has 1/6 of the power according to your calculations, so I don't see your problem.

Jaggies get _better_ with resolution increases. Start Quake3, and then try running it at 640x480 and then 1600x1200, no AA. If you think there's fewer jaggies at 640x480, you need to get your eyes checked.

-Erwos

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (1)

Cadallin (863437) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339898)

You need to read the articles on the Power Processing Elements at Ars technica. "PPE" being the name IBM is marketing the Power component in the Cell, and the Xenon CPU.

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360 -2.ars [arstechnica.com]

The PPE is an extremely stripped down POWER design with significantly fewer resources than the G3 in the Revolution.

Higher resolutions tend to mask jaggies somewhat, except they also cause them to pop out and crawl much worse during movement. Additionally FSAA is easier at lower resolutions, obviously.

And the 1/6 processing power estimation assumes that that all three cores are at 100% utilization, which is a pretty bad assumption.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (1)

Wdomburg (141264) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339764)

You'd think by now people - at least the ones who read slashdot - would get that MHz != performance. The PPE elements in the Xenon are clocked high, sure. So was the Pentium 4, which was abandoned in favour of the slower clocked Core architecture. And the individual cores are in-order, only two issue, and the L1 caches are fairly small (32k) considering they're servicing two threads and only two way associative. The L2 cache is a bit more advanced, but again it's fairly small (1MB shared) and runs half-clocked (1.6GHz in this case).

It seems confirmed that the Broadway will be an evolution of the existing Gekko architecture, but that's about it. For all the information out there, this may even be a multi-core version of the processor. Regardless, what we know about the last generation is that it combines an eight-way associate L1 cache with locking, on-die full speed L2 cache, and is designed around the use of 1T-SRAM, which makes a lot of the "tricks" employed in the Xenon (and Cell) to minimize latency (1T-SRAM has latency in the 5-6ns range, compared to 50+ for traditional DRAM technologies).

As for texture memory, the 360 and PS3 will almost certainly trounce the Wii. They need to, they're trying to push HD resolutions. Both systems, though, store texture in external memory, whereas the Wii will undoubtetdly have texture cache integrated into the GPU (btw, the Flipper had 3MB, so expect at least that much. :P)

How does it all translate into real world performance? There's no way to know. Even if Nintnedo published every last detail, it's nigh impossible to predict how games will run until they're running. I'll bet dollars to donuts that it will fall short in raw horsepower, but will be plenty competitive at SD resolutions. Smart move, if you ask me. By the time HD sets are really pervasive it'll be time to launch another generation, and hardware to support it will be commodity by then.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (1)

pilkul (667659) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339206)

So you're telling me the entire ~350$ dollar difference between the Wii and the PS3 hardware (more like ~450$ when you consider that the Wii controller will probably cost 100$ on its own) comes down to only the presence of a shader? I don't know that much about the specs of these systems but I call BS. I expect much stronger performance across the board from the Wii's competitors.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15339402)

I think you're over simplifying what was said.

Nintendo's approach with the design of the Wii was to produce a (reasonably) powerful system based on conventional technology. The result was that the CPU is very similar to the Gekko (the Gamecube's processor) in that it is a modified Single Core Power PC processor with excellent single thread performance; by being single core it is cheaper, smaller and produces far less heat than the XBox 360's or PS3's processors. Ultimately in theoritical floating point performance it doesn't stack well against either of those processors, but neither the XBox 360 nor the PS3 can reach their theoritical performance.

By dropping the Shaders from the GPU Nintendo has saved a remarkable ammount of money on the system; most (modern) GPUs have far more transistors dedicated to programmable hardware than for the rest of the processor; consider that the XBox 360 has 48 programmable pipelines on its GPU.

The Wii doesn't have a hard-drive but instead has a 512MB flash card built into the system; while 512 MB of flash memory may still have a decent price tag associated with it whey you're buying them by the Million they're reasonably inexpensive.

The Wii doesn't have a High Definition DVD player (or any DVD player for that matter) so they save a ton on both licencing and on the Hardware costs. Even the Wii's controller is not that expensive, the chips that are used in the Wii's controller are used in a lot of devices (including laptop hard-drives so that the hard-drive knows whether it has been dropped).

Ultimately, with the XBox 360 and PS3 you're spending extra money on brand new technology, that is theoritically great but has not been proven.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (1)

pilkul (667659) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339508)

Hmm, thanks for the additional explanation. I see the point better now.

The advantage is vastly different capabilities (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15338595)

>Many people don't realize that for a given game, as much as 3/4 of the manpower goes into art and *not* code.

And that's the problem right there. When I play a game, I want to [B]play a game[/B], not look at pretty graphics.. If graphics were everything, then Guild Wars would have way more players than World of Warcraft. It has better graphics and doesn't require a monthly fee.

But WoW, despite its monthly fees and "lower quality graphics", is still the winner in terms of total number of players.

The fact that the Xbox 360 and PS3 [B]require[/B] more graphists (because of the higher-resolution textures) just makes games even more expensive to make.

Which is where Nintendo has the advantage: the console costs less to buy (players), costs less to develop for (games).

Besides, not that many people have an HD display. IMHO HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will both flop just like SACD and DVD-Audio.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (1)

CSMastermind (847625) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338627)

Well you're absolutly right about the artist vs. programmer ratio. I'm trying right now to think of an analogy that would correctly compare the arists and programmers of video games to people who work with movies...but I don't know enough about how movies are made so let me say this: while developers do like to produce a game for all three consoles (which they should, it maximizes their profits) that doesn't mean that they'll shy away from the Wii. What it does mean is we'll see less small name, low budget ports on the Wii. It also means that there will be a handful of third-party games for the Wii that won't be seen on the other two systems and the other way around too. Specialization is good for everyone. If all the consoles played all the same games then the market would saturate much quicker...that's why it's so important to have a strong first-party lineup of games.

If you get a completely different expirence from playing one console than the other then you're more likely to buy both of them. If you're strapped for cash or only want one system this time around then you'll pick which one gives you more of the expirence you're looking for. Maybe that's Nintendo, maybe it's not. The important thing is that by seperating themselves from the competition Nintendo actually greatly improves their chances of success. I'm not saying it's a sure thing but it was a smart move. I don't feel the need to go real in depth into possible ideas for Nintendo this time around or how video games are actually made because the overlying conecept of this post is this: I'm not disagreeing with just adding to what you said, that the differences aren't nesscarly a bad thing.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338636)

probably not that big of an issue.
They have to create textures of different resolutions anyway. depending on how far the object is you use a differn't resolution. For the Wii you will just use a lower resolution texture for each distance.
What you could see is more games being written for the Wii or being released sooner since the cost for the art work will be less for the Wii.
It will all come down to numbers. How many people buy the Wii next Christmas vs how many people buy the PS-3 and XBox 360.
My money is on the Wii.
This is how I see it breaking down.
Parents buying for kids. Wii all the way. It is much cheaper than the PS-3 or the 360 and has a lot of fun games.
Early Adopters. They will have a choice to make. They can buy a Wii and have some cash left over for some hot titles for the Wii and their 360 or they can pony up $600+ plus for a PS/3. Why did I say $600+? Simple I am betting that most PS/3s will be sold as bundles like the 360 was.
Hard core PS/2 fans? Well nothing else but Sony will do for them. The question is will this group plus about half of the really hard core early adopters be enough?

If I worked for Sony games I would be very busy trying to get some killer titles ready for launch.
If I worked for Microsoft I would be working really hard to improve Live.
If I was was worked for Nintendo I would be working really hard to make sure that everybody that wants a Wii for Christmas can get one and to make the sales price $199.

Problem or advantage? (1)

everlong (804799) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338884)

This reminds me of an old Ars Technica article, http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/cr ossplatform.ars/ [arstechnica.com] . It says that:
* The growing cost of development for games on next-gen platforms will increase demand from publishers to require new games to be deployed on many platforms.
* Increased cross-platform development will mean less money for optimizing a new game for any particular platform.
* As a result, with the exception of in-house titles developed by the console manufacturers themselves, none of the three major platforms (Xbox 360, PS3 and Nintendo Revolution) will end up with games that look significantly different from each other, nor will any platform show any real "edge" over the others. Many games will be written to a "lowest common denominator" platform, which would be two threads running on a single CPU core and utilizing only the GPU.
If that's the case, the Wii will see the greatest profit from this "lowest common denominator" development model, having not wasted money devoloping and subsidizing the sale of an HD-enabled machine.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities (1)

BooRolla (824295) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338925)

Umm ok.

If the Wii will take less artists (= time = money), why wouldn't more developers develop specifically for the Wii?

You make an advantage sound like a detractor...

Go back to sleep, Zonk (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15338396)

No, Zonk, of course developers aren't interested in the Wii. After all, why would they be? Nothing could ever stand up to the developer heaven that is your precious XBox 360. The author of the blog you link is right, even though he's apparently never heard of EA [google.com] or Activision [google.com] .

The massive outpouring of launch exclusive support by EA, Ubisoft and Sega unlike anything we saw directed at Nintendo at any point during the Gamecube era is just a coincidence. And not such a big deal either. After all, as the article puts it, nobody's getting involved in the near term except Sega and Ubisoft (merely two of the biggest game publishers in the world), and it isn't like any important names are getting involved (like, y'know, EA or anything), so what good will it be? Spongebob Squarepants Spongebob Squarepants Spongebob Squarepants.

Go back to sleep so the rest of us can look forward to Red Steel and Super Monkey Ball in peace.

Yeah right (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15338399)

Tell me if I'm wrong, but this Pachter guy sounds like he doesn't know what he's talking about.

"no publishers would be able to take advantage of the installed base because they haven't fully committed to the early life of the platform"

How does that make any sense? Even if this were true, I believe there were 25 Wii games shown at E3? I'm pretty sure not all of those games are being published by a small number of publishers. Nintendo seems to have plenty of 3rd party backing for Wii.

Do devs get the Wii? (2, Funny)

spun (1352) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338429)

Only if they are lady devs. otherwise, they give the wii.

Sorry, I thought I had that out of my system already ;-)

Wiirst post! (read: worst post, not first) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15338438)

It's a controller that senses every move you make with it, and every mistake seen at E3 has been discussed in public to no end (like Red Steel not having totally free-form sword fighting). I'm guessing that those who didn't get it in the beginning certainly get it now, especially after playing Nintendo's own games.
Almost everyone who's not bound by contracts with MS and Sony will want to get in on this, who are they kidding? This is the most fun thing in gaming since.......... ever.

Lack of Developer Support? (5, Insightful)

DeadCatX2 (950953) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338453)

Say what?

There are lots of games [1up.com] coming out for the Wii.

And just because big third parties aren't frothing at the mouth doesn't mean anything. I'm FAR more interested in titles like Sadness. These less-known developers are going to take risks that you won't see any big third party developer take.

Re:Lack of Developer Support?... (2, Insightful)

Jinky Williams (975076) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338992)

...I doubt it.
DeadCatX2: And just because big third parties aren't frothing at the mouth doesn't mean anything. I'm FAR more interested in titles like Sadness. These less-known developers are going to take risks that you won't see any big third party developer take.
Agreed. And the SDK (development kit) will only be $2,000USD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Revolution) , whereas the PS2 SDK was $20,000 at time of launch (same website), which will allow indie developers with considerably less venture capital to develop games and allow them to take more risks with innovative and different ideas. Yes, there will likely be tons of crap out there because of the bar being lowered, but the market will take care of that. I'm looking forward to the variety of games that will come forth for the Wii.

Re:Lack of Developer Support? (1)

Jeff DeMaagd (2015) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339614)

I wonder if the developers that don't "get" Wii (I don't get the name though) are the kind that like to rehash existing concepts and increment the version number.

Ask the right question. (2, Interesting)

Ant P. (974313) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338458)

What are Nintendo doing to get the devs? Part of the reason they've historically had poor 3rd-party support is because they make it _hard_ for outsiders to get in.

Re:Ask the right question. (3, Interesting)

Traiklin (901982) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338533)

well for starters they are making their devkit cost only $2,000. if that doesn't make developers go "sure we will make a game for you" I don't know what will.

Especially since Microsoft's devkit costs around $50,000 - $100,000 (last I read) and the PS3 devkit is something like $16 million.

Re:Ask the right question. (2, Interesting)

the_humeister (922869) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338818)

Any links? Perhaps my googling skills aren't up to par, but I've not been able to confirm any of those figures

Exaggerating a Little? (3, Interesting)

Swordsmanus (921213) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338932)

Uhh according to this article - http://www.gamespot.com/e3/e3story.html?sid=614915 4 [gamespot.com]

"THQ president and CEO Brian Farrell spoke about developing for the Nintendo Wii, touching on a number of topics including THQ's first reactions to its Wii games..."

"...[The Wii] wasn't a whole new programming environment," Farrell said. "So we had a lot of tools and tech that work in that environment. So those costs--and again, I hate these broad generalizations--but they could be as little as a third of the high-end next-gen titles... Maybe the range is a quarter to a half."

Re:Exaggerating a Little? (2, Insightful)

LordKronos (470910) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339255)

I can't speak about the accuracy of his figures for the dev kits (I haven't a clue about that issue), but the comment you quoted doesn't seem to be talking about the dev kits to me. It seems to be talking about the expense of purchasing upgraded game engines or developing the upgrades to in-house game engines in order for them to take advantage, as well as related upgrades to development tools (editors, modeling tools, stock resource libraries, etc).

Re:Exaggerating a Little? (1)

Swordsmanus (921213) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339674)

That's a very valid point.

Re:Ask the right question. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15339160)

Actually, X360 devkits are in the $10,000 range for companies that have the money. For companies that don't, Microsoft has given away some devkits for free. My roommate got two so he could port a PC game that he developed to the X360 and put it on the Live marketplace.

Companies with money got the first devkits, of course, but now there are enough to go around.

Cut my chest open and throw my liver to the dogs. (0)

NRAdude (166969) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339839)

and the PS3 devkit is something like $16 million.


Who modded that up? I can barely break +1 on the moderation scale, and someone modded that up without confirming facts.

There are available pictures of the PS3 development kit on HOME.BTCONNECT.COM [btconnect.com] . There is an article with a strategic view of the PS3 development kit on WWW.TECHEBLOG.COM [techeblog.com] . Yet, there has been no price shown. For under USD 2000, one could just buy some Dell PC's and cluster them for a better solution to anything Sony could pull out of its proprietary mind. Why stop at USD 16000000? I say the development kit could be as much as Sony is worth. I'm impressed Sony is advertising PS3 as a Linux solution bending to an 100% open-source environment, yet at the same time BOUGHT its solution from Microsoft--nope, not surprised. If I'm uptodate on my studies in gray-area politics and economics, two competitors can build their products for eachothers benefit to prevent use of their IP (think Blu-Ray) while competing like dogs in a market.

For conclusion to the matter above; The PS3 Development kit WIKIPEDIA article [wikipedia.org] yiels that Sony purchased technology from Microsoft that would provide access to GNU development tools on the Playstation 3! (I kid you naught!) And within that article, the Playstation 3 is not limited to a game console but a complete multimedia entertainment center -- this would propose it not to be a shabby little game device like the competing Nintendo Wiivolution and Microsoft XBOX.

The sad truth is, that I and many others may only buy a controller of a certain gaming system, and just theme the desktop chassis of our computer and theme the visual presentation through an X or DirectFB solution to "have it better than the real thing" while we run an emulator.

Sony and Microsoft have been turds since they ever started competing, no exceptions. Nintendo appears to be an honest venture, having evinced to not choose any intellectual properties that conflict with their customers' and stockholders' interests and securities.

Anyone asking me for a suggestion; I recommend they choose the lesser of two Wiivels...

Smash Brothers (3, Interesting)

EdwinBoyd (810701) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338555)

The delay for Smash Bros. may be intentional. This was a 'must have' game for the Cube but as mentioned previously does not really take advantage of the Wii's unique features. Perhaps Nintendo thought it best to launch games that highlight the controller first before bringing in the tried and true favourites.

Re:Smash Brothers (1)

pembo13 (770295) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338905)

I doubt. As I seem to remember, they started development late.

Re:Smash Brothers (2, Interesting)

edwdig (47888) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339885)

The lead producer of Smash Bros left Nintendo (the HAL division specifically) within the past few years. Nintendo didn't ask him to head the new Smash Bros project until after their announcement last year that there would be a new Smash Bros at launch. They didn't even start forming a development team until about a year ago, so it was extremely optimistic to expect the game to be ready in time for the launch. SSBM was an *extremely* well polished game, so I really doubt they'd want to rush the followup.

Sure (0, Flamebait)

cubicledrone (681598) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338556)

the future of Nintendo and the Wii aren't assured.

FUD

Next Generation reports that third party developers may not really 'get' the ambitious console.

FUD

Any questions?

See, it's no longer a question of building a better product, which Nintendo obviously did since they pwned E3. It's getting past all the dockers-wearing bullshit shovelers with the truth. Of course, Nintendo's name was an act of simple pure genius, since even the skeptics (who are always wrong, ALWAYS wrong) can't stop talking about it.

Nintendo and Apple are the same company. They consistently build better products and consistently build a better business while the nasal voices of criticism for the sake of criticism keep trying to shout them down.

Short version: Nintendo owns your sorry ass. Shut the fuck up.

Re:Sure (2, Funny)

jinzumkei (802273) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338585)

Nintendo and Apple are the same company. They consistently build better products and consistently build a better business while the nasal voices of criticism for the sake of criticism keep trying to shout them down.

meanwhile their fanboys flock to slashdot and post tired comments.

Re:Sure (0, Flamebait)

cubicledrone (681598) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338603)

tired

You misspelled truthful.

Re:Sure (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15339212)

No, he misspelled 'obnoxious cunt'. Now shh.

Yes I got a question. (3, Interesting)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338655)

Do you know what FUD means?

I see it a lot nowadays mostly as an indicator someone doesn't agree with something. That doesn't mean it is FUD. Anymore then someone having a different opinion is a troll or someone having an argument is flaming.

Nintendo consistently builds better products? WHAAAAHAAA. Yeah right. That is why Sony took them for a ride with the PS1. Sorry but no. Nintendo screwed up badly in the past and had to pay the price. But then you mention apple. So I get my own word that lost all meaning to rebutt your fud.

FANBOY.

Re:Yes I got a question. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15338699)

That is why Sony took them for a ride with the PS1. Sorry but no. Nintendo screwed up badly in the past and had to pay the price.

Well, no. Nintendo screwed up, but it wasn't with the system. The N64 was technically superior to the PS1 in every way except for storage media -- and even though CDs proved to be more popular in the end, cartridges still have their advantages. Nintendo screwed up by losing all of their third party support, which was largely due to marketing (the Mortal Kombat incident on the SNES stained them with a "kiddy" label that they're just now managing to get rid of) and treating developers poorly in the past. Face it, even Sony acknowledges that Nintendo is technically superior -- that's why they've copied everything Nintendo has done in the past. They took the cross-shaped button layout, shoulder buttons on a controller, a controller with both analog and digital control sticks, rumble capability, and so forth. The PSX itself was even originally planned to be an add-on for the SNES, until negotiations between Nintendo and Sony fell apart. Sony has done nothing but copy Nintendo's innovations and put a "cool" label on them. Lately, they've even been copying Nintendo's old strategies for dealing with developers.. and guess what, they're losing ground. Just look at things from the recent E3; a lot of developers are jumping ship on the PS3 and going to the Wii.

So, yes. Both of the statements that the original poster referred to as FUD are, in fact, FUD. They're blatantly not true; they're wild accusations by people who don't know Nintendo and aren't paying attention to the state of the industry. Their only purpose is to try to convince people that Nintendo isn't doing as well as they really are.

Re:Yes I got a question. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15338721)

Nothing funnier than two fanboys engaged in a flamewar.
PS1 sold better than the N64, yup. Big news there, Nintendo dropped the ball when they didn't use CD as storage with N64, BIG mistake. I really don't know who will "win" this time, but I'm guessing Microsoft with the Xbox360. Sony are living dangerously with the PS3 right now, and Nintendo is taking a huge risk. Of course, Nintendo will make a profit no matter what, I suspect. Microsoft however are playing it safe and going with technology without gimmicks, and I think it's gonna pay off.
I'm gonna get a Wii, personally, it's the only one in my price range this year. :-P

Re:Yes I got a question. (0, Flamebait)

cubicledrone (681598) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339201)

Do you know what FUD means?

Yes. Here are two examples. Ready?

"the future of Nintendo and the Wii aren't assured."

"Next Generation reports that third party developers may not really 'get' the ambitious console."

Nintendo consistently builds better products? WHAAAAHAAA. Yeah right.

Scoreboard. They just got through owning E3.

That is why Sony took them for a ride with the PS1.

Oh you mean back when Nintendo invented the console market? Baserunners don't win games. Nintendo just cleared the bases. There's nothing left but a vapor trail.

But then you mention apple.

Oh yeah, the other company that wins in every market.

So I get my own word that lost all meaning to rebutt your fud.

I have a better word. PWNED.

That's why I'm getting a PS3 too (1)

Deorus (811828) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338574)

I'll definitely buy the Wii as soon as it's launched because of the Nintendo exclusives and the backward compatibility. I still regret missing the chance of having a Nintendo 64 back when it was relevant and won't miss it again.

For third party games I'm considering the PlayStation 3 for two reasons: the Sony exclusives and the possibility of running Linux on a relatively cheap Cell implementation.

Nintendogs Wii should be good.... (2, Funny)

Rifter13 (773076) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338692)

You can use the motion activated controller, and toss it for your nintendog to go and fetch. Of course... you will have to fetch the actual device yourself, but it will help you shed a few pounds.

The fact is... (1)

dummyname12 (886454) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338733)

The fact is, if enough consumers "get it," then you can bet that the developers will "get it."

Drooling fanboyism (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15338822)

Okay, so this is off topic, but...

My friends and I were at the arcade last night playing House of the Dead 4 and we couldn't stop talking about how awesome that game would be for the Wii. For those who haven't played it, HOTD4 uses motion sensors in its light guns to achieve a number of effects, from throwing off zombies to opening doors. The controller has a trigger and a grenade button, which map perfectly to the trigger and A button on the Wiimote.

How much fun would a 4-player home edition of HOTD4 be? Are you listening, Sega? Get on it!

You do know those demos werent running on wiis (1)

majortom1981 (949402) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338835)

I wouldnt compare graphics right now. There are pictures floating around that showed that the demo stations were actually modified gamecubes and not the wii console it self. You cant compare graphics right now because they havent showed anything using the final console yet.

Depends on their name... (0)

chrisjbuck (950790) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338843)

If the developer is named Ben Dover they get the Wii all right...
Nobody expects the Wii in the middle of the night!

And yes, after playing Groo,
This is the best I can do.

It will take time to gain momentum (5, Insightful)

LordZardoz (155141) | more than 8 years ago | (#15338988)

Regardless of how great the Wii turns out to be, Nintendo is going to need some time to overcome the less then impressive image they have gained from the N64 and Gamecube. Part of it is that not many companies are going to be eager to bet on the guy who came in 3rd place in a 3 way race. Gamecube did better in Japan then the X-Box though, and that is why your seeing alot more Japanese publishers giving it a shot.

Aside from that issue, another more insidious problem is that people tend to hold grudges, and Nintendo has alienated many developers over the years. It took most of 2 console cycles for Square to do anything with Nintendo after Yamauchi said that Squares RPG games suck. And Nintendo also managed to drive away Silicon Knights shortly after the Metal gear port was done. There are many more companies that just dont much care for having to work for Nintendo.

The last issue is that even once the console starts to take off, most 3rd party games (except probably for those done by Sega) are just not going to feel as good to play as most of the Nintendo titles will. While the SDK is cheap, its going to take a while for the designers to get their head around the sort of things that are possible. WarioWare: Smooth Moves will be the best demo title for the sort of things someone can try with this console, and Metroid will point the way for FPS games. But beyond that, its going to take a while before 3rd parties come up with the sort of Original titles that will truly sell the system.

Its like playing a Texas Hold-em poker game, and your starting hand is 7 Jack, when your opponents have pocket aces and pocket kings. You will win once the flop comes down as 7, Jack, Jack, but its going to be a while before everyone else at the table watching the game realizes it.

END COMMUNICATION

Re:It will take time to gain momentum (1)

edwdig (47888) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339931)

And Nintendo also managed to drive away Silicon Knights shortly after the Metal gear port was done.

Nintendo and Silicon Knights were a HORRIBLE match for each other. If you read interviews with Dennis Dyack, he goes on and on about how storytelling and presentation are what matters about games, and practically dismisses gameplay as meaningless. If you play Eternal Darkness, you'll realize rather quickly that the game is all about the story, and that the gameplay is very simplistic.

Nintendo is constantly talking about how gameplay is what matters, and worries less about technology.

They probably just got tired of bickering over their conflicting approaches and decided to split ways.

Spinning a way out of E3 (4, Interesting)

killbill! (154539) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339082)

Whenever I hear both Microsoft and Sony advising consumers to buy a Wii as a second console, I hardly see that as an endorsement. Instead, I can see fear in their eyes. Fear that consumers are going to buy a Wii first.
The huge splash Nintendo made at E3 has spin masters frantically running for cover. They're trying to downplay the Wii as good enough only as a secondary console. But even they feel the former Revolution is going to be a coup.

As for third-party developers, I'm planning to buy a Wii on launch day and at least 4 games (Metroid, Mario, Zelda and Red Steel, maybe Wii Sports). That's enough quality gaming right here to prevent me from actually seeing the light of day for the next few months, and I'm not even counting the countless classics on the Virtual Console.

The Wii is not suffering from a lack of titles. Actually, it already has too many strong launch titles to even let me try an unknown third-party game. Out of my 4/5 launch titles, only one is from a third party. The publishers that missed the boat have only themselves to blame.

$200 price point announced (1)

BTWR (540147) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339210)

The Wii Talk [thewiitalk.com] is posting a Miyamoto interview that hints at a $200 price at launch to be announced in September at the Tokyo Games Show.

That's quite alright... (1)

csoto (220540) | more than 8 years ago | (#15339604)

...because new developers that DO will take their place, and do quite nicely to boot.
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