New Clues for Antikythera Mechanism 183
fuzzybunny writes "The Register reports that British and Dutch scientists located a previously undetected word on the Antikythera Mechanism which seems to confirm its nature as a tool for astronomical prediction. This device is one of the world's first known geared devices; while its purpose is still not 100% clear, according to the article, 'Athens university researcher Xenophon Moussas is reported as saying the "newly discovered text seems to confirm that the mechanism was used to track planetary bodies."'"
Not just the first known geared device (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Not just the first known geared device (Score:2)
No... (Score:2)
Re:Not just the first known geared device (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Not just the first known geared device (Score:3, Funny)
Obviously pieces of some elaborate boardgame. One player would be 'Intel', the other would be 'AMD'. The rules are not known to us, but we presume that they bear some resemblance to checkers. This theory is supported by the Pacific-Northwest legends of a tribe called 'G4m3ers'.
Re:Not just the first known geared device (Score:2)
Re:Not just the first known geared device (Score:2)
Since ancient times, however, our record-keeping has become astoundingly prolific. Instead of just one library, that burned down, there are hundreds of thousands of libraries around the world, any one of which is likely to have all the references you need to understand the basis of all our current tec
Re:Not just the first known geared device (Score:4, Interesting)
This predates the current inventions by nearly 2 millenuim.
Actually, it seems, the current differntial gears even took data from the Greeks for the same.
They really knew what they were doing.
If a civilization knew maths, they knew quite a bit.
Makes me wonder how much information would have been lost of the earlier civilizations, esp. the Indus Valley civilisations etc
The civiliztion which was the epitome of mathematical knowledge at the time.
Re:Not just the first known geared device (Score:2)
Bloody Romans! What have they ever done for us? (Score:3, Insightful)
XERXES: Brought peace.
REG: Oh. Peace? Shut up!
(If you don't know what that's from, well, hand in your geek card on the way out.)
Re:Not just the first known geared device (Score:3, Informative)
80BC Antikythera mechanism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism [wikipedia.org]
2000BC South pointing chariot - a geared mechanism with a differential.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pointing_Chario t [wikipedia.org]
The south pointing chariot subtracted the number of revolutions of one wheel from the number
Re:Not just the first known geared device (Score:2)
Let's stick with fact, not legend (Score:5, Informative)
2634 BC According to Legend, Huang Di, the Yellow Emperor designs the South Pointing Chariot. It is built for him by the craftsman Fang Bo.
I'll point out that the Yellow Emperor is also credited in Chinese lgeend with inventing the cart, the boat, and the calendar. He's a culture-hero and myth, not history to be cited. The Duke of Chou is similiarly legendified.
Note that the 'reinvention' of it (most likely, the actual invention) dates well after the Antikythera mechanism. And even then, there don't appear to be any surviving plans or carts, and at least one claim that it was an actual person in the cart, not a mechanism.
Re:Let's stick with fact, not legend (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other hand, even today, in a team of scientists discovering something new, the head of the project gets most (or all) of the credit...
In any company, managers take credit for the work done by others, but blame them if anything goes wrong.
I wouldn't say things have changed that much.
Too quick with the Submit button (Score:3, Insightful)
Forgot to mention... how many of Edison's inventions were really his own, and how many (should have) actually belonged to some lab worker/assistant in his labs?
Art (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Art (Score:2)
Re:Art (Score:2)
Portable Sky (Score:5, Interesting)
The really interesting question is how that portable machine relates to the ancient monuments like the Pyramids, Chichen Itza, and Angkor Wat which replicate star patterns on the ground for the ages.
One possibility... (Score:2)
Another po
Clear Skies (Score:5, Informative)
The Pyramids aren't "incorrectly placed" to represent the stars of "Orion". Their positions are different from Orion's exact shape today, but are exactly correct for their slightly different positions 13.5Ky ago - and again about 12Ky in the future. Discovering that correspondence allowed the discoverers to find 2 previously undocumented pyramids buried nearby, corresponding to other stars in the constellation. FWIW, the "Greek" who knew the Earth was round, even calculating its circumference within 1% accuracy, was Eratosthenes, actually an "Egyptian" (or neighboring "Libyan").
Angkor Wat is sync'ed to "Draco", also 13.5Ky ago. Other global monuments reflect other constellations, including all kinds of Greek monuments.
Stonehenge wasn't merely a sundial, but rather a calibration to various celestial events throughout the year and the centuries.
These devices were used to navigate around a global civilization that shared a celestial framework. Not just markers, but also a consistent framework of stories of supernatural characters that ensured their perpetuation across the world and through time. Because that knowledge was accepted on faith by most, just like most people accept GPS, watches and Web reservation systems on faith today, they're "religious" objects. I hope our exposure to more ancient versions will help us examine our own mystification of current practices at least as much as it demystifies ancient practice.
Re:Clear Skies (Score:2)
Even today, humans prefer to dwell on coasts (which is also why ocean levels rising due to global warming would be such a disaster...). Both US coasts have a higher population density than the middle.
Has something to do with easy access to transportation (boats), food (fish) and moderate climate (not the extremes you find in the middle of continents).
And if you consider towns and cities in the middle of a co
Re:Clear Skies (Score:2)
Yeah, but you'd still think there would be something surviving from that time period (that's more conclusive than the Bimini Road etc.). Just as today, not everyone lives on the coast.
Of course, I did read something in a Charles Berlitz book about how some people did a core sample in Asia (India?) somewhere, and found a layer of fused glass remarkably similar to that produced by an atomic bomb (and if this "global civilization" was ended by a nuclear war, that could explain the lack of artifacts, I guess).
Re:Clear Skies (Score:4, Insightful)
The idea of a nuclear war in antiquity is preposterous. They didn't have atoms back then. =)
Re:Clear Skies (Score:2)
Carved Granite comes close. So does soil depletion in farming areas (3000-year-old Anasazi fields in the American southwest are still visible because the vegetation in them grows thinner). I would imagine our massive landfills would be hard to mistake for natural formations, even if excavated 10,000 years down the line. While many of our massive earthworks are coastal, and might be flooded in your scenario, many others are clearly not (Cheyenne Mountain? the Powder Rive
Re:Clear Skies (Score:4, Insightful)
Knowing that there is iron in the concrete may lead to the conclusion that someone put it there, but not necessarily to why. One of the limitations of archaelogy is that the most believable story that incorporates all of the evidence wins. Knowing that something was a 3000 year old Anasazi field may be somewhat interesting, but generally isn't the level of detail people are looking for. While that may be true, it only tells us a little about how they lived. It doesn't tell us much about their culture, other than they farmed, which means they likely weren't nomads.
I remember an example used in class of how this process would work if it were applied to us. Some future archaeologist who came across the remains of our society would find most of it destroyed. Artifacts are rare, which is why they need a story to fill in the blanks. Many of the bodies found from our time would have groups of trinkets in close proximity, or in the clothes if they were still in tact. The number and types of these trinkets may be associated with someone's social status or religious beliefs. It would be curious because each group of trinkets would have similarities, but be different. In fact, no two identical sets of trinkets would be found across all of the bodies found. Someone could look at all of this and conclude that these were indications of social status and develop some intricate theory. Without someone from the present time to say "these are keys, they go in locks, we lock things because we don't trust people", the theory may sound solid.
Re:Clear Skies (Score:2)
Re:Clear Skies (Score:2)
I don't know about Hancock's 12.5Ky-old cataclysm. He's a recent investigator selling books. But he used the Pyramids/Orion existing data of stars and pyramids to uncover 2 "new" pyramids, which is successful deductive science that validates his model. Moreover, his Pyramid model is robust, revealing a cohesive principle for the Pyramids th
Re:Clear Skies (Score:2)
Re:Clear Skies (Score:2)
Some years back, I ran across a quantified version of this claim from some demographer whose name I've forgotten. He commented that if you measured out a 100-km strip along the shores of the oceans and any lakes and rivers to be "navigable" enough to support commercial traffic, you would have about 5% of the world's land, and about 90% of its humans. He also observed that in most places, the densly-inhabited s
Re:One possibility... (Score:2)
I don't see why you call that a "possibility", since the Greeks were perfectly aware the Earth was round (they even knew its size), a few had speculated that it moved around the sun, and several suggested that the "fixed" stars were not in fact fixed.
Re:One possibility... (Score:2)
Re:One possibility... (Score:2)
You may be inclined to think it is absurd but is not without merit; religion and spirituality are very important for creating culture and cohesion in any civilization. Moreover, EVERY SINGLE CIVILIZATION has some sort of mythology underlying their beginning and the beginning of the universe as they know it. Even m
In other news, Scientists exaggerate findings (Score:2, Interesting)
"The outstanding results obtained from X-Tek's 3-D X-rays are allowing us to make a definitive investigation of the Mechanism. I do not believe it will ever be possible to do better."
Scientist Two: "newly discovered text seems to confirm that the mechanism was used to track planetary bodies"
Scientist One:"It's still up in the air, and there's plenty of work yet to be done.""
"'What was the device actually for?' Was it a used to predict calendars? Was it simply a teaching tool?"
The last question
Re:In other news, Scientists exaggerate findings (Score:2)
Without the modern scientific method, there was no way to arbitrate disputes, which were probably dogmatic. If you claimed to really understand the motion of the heavens, a device like the Antikythera device was a powerful debating tool to have on your side.
Re:In other news, Scientists exaggerate findings (Score:2)
("Who cares if it's tossed together in VB^D^D low-grade bronze? It's not like anyone's ever going to look at it hard.")
Re:In other news, Scientists exaggerate findings (Score:2)
Oh for mod points to give you an 'insightful'...
80 B.C. (Score:3, Funny)
For somthing so old, it looks remarkably similar to my grandpops 1900s pocket watch.
Not Surprising (Score:2, Insightful)
What is it with Scientists not releasing findings? (Score:4, Interesting)
It was inscribed with a text of over 2,000 characters, of which about 95% have been deciphered. The full text of the inscription has not yet been published.
Why? Go on, I DARE you... publish the text. Let's all have a look, particuarly if it says "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" over and over... Tell us what it says. We can handle it.
Scientists seem quite keen on delaying the release of their findings until such time as they Know Everything There Is To Know about [insert whatever it is here]. Haven't they heard of beta?
Beta to a scientist == HIGH risk (Score:2)
Try that with your career. These guys need to publish to stay employed and they have to be right as often as possible.
Obviously for monetary gain (Score:2)
Wouldn't be the first time. (Score:2)
Right. Or more likely, they're afraid that it might somehow cause peop
Re:What is it with Scientists not releasing findin (Score:2)
Re:What is it with Scientists not releasing findin (Score:4, Informative)
Re:What is it with Scientists not releasing findin (Score:2)
Sorry, I don't buy that.
The Word (Score:5, Funny)
What's new? (Score:3, Insightful)
Check out the Wikipedia article.
So if these guys have really learned something new - they are failing to communicate whatever it ACTUALLY is that they've found.
Re:What's new? (Score:3, Funny)
Obligatory (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Obligatory (Score:2)
My officemate had this has his 'honours thesis' (Score:4, Informative)
Overall, it's a fascinating find - I never cease to be amazed at the complexity of many pre-industrial artifacts.
I'm curious as to what sort of mechanical insights - not just inscription reading - the new analysis technique can provide.
I'm amazed (Score:5, Interesting)
The Antikythera Mechanism is either JOYOUSLY UPLIFTING or SOUL-CRUSHINGLY DEPRESSING. It isn't funny.
Uplifting because the human race developed the differential gear and incredibly intricate machinery TWO THOUSAND YEARS earlier than we thought, and used that technology for science.
Depressing because the human race then lobotomized itself and we practically went back to living in caves.
We had something amazing, and we lost it so utterly that we forgot we'd ever had it. Go humanity.
Re:I'm amazed (Score:3, Insightful)
Not to mention, there's a tradition of automata similiar to this
Re:I'm amazed (Score:3, Funny)
Reminds me, I have to go finish my documentation...
Re:I'm amazed (Score:2, Interesting)
David Gay
Re:I'm amazed (Score:2)
it's like global warming--large variations can exist in small areas, but one needs to look at the global picture to understand the trends.
Re:I'm amazed (Score:2)
Re:I'm amazed (Score:2)
Re:I'm amazed (Score:2)
Re:I'm amazed (Score:2)
This is the period of great Byzantine growth, of the rule of Heraclius, of the rule of Justinian and his famous laws, and of the construction of the Hagia sophia--Ayasofya today--one of the most magnificent buildings I've had the pleasure of visiting.
Also of the splendor of the Mesopotamian city of Ctesiphon and the Persian Empire that expanded east to the Mediterranean, west towards India, south to Oman and Africa and north into the caucuses. Many magnificent ar
Re:Dark wasn't dark? (Score:2)
The "Dark Ages" weren't as bad as you think they were. It's true, that tiny corner of the globe--the European peninsula--may not have been quite so orderly as during, for instance, Roman times, but neither was it bereft of civilization, lear
The rich tapestry of life. (Score:2)
It's such a shame the impact at Chicxulub completely destroyed these fascinating creatures. I wonder where they would be today, had they survived the K-T boundary event."
All things in the
Re:The rich tapestry of life. (Score:2)
I'd say we would likely have had steel sooner, seeing as how war tends to drive technological advancement.
Re:I'm amazed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I'm amazed (Score:2)
Re:I'm amazed (Score:2)
Please enlight us...
Re:I'm amazed (Score:2)
Even more depressing, is - maybe it's not the first time the human race lobotomized itself. Still more depressing: it may not be the last time.
Re:I'm amazed (Score:2)
The series is called "The Adventures of Conrad Stargard" and is published by Delrey(Ballantine).
The premise is what would happen if a modern engineer wound up in 13th century Poland just before the mongol invasion (the series starts about 9 years before and goes to some years past it).
All kinds of fun and not so fun things happen over at least 6 books as Conrad winds up industializing Poland, creating a modern-ish arm
English grammar (Score:5, Funny)
May I recommend the present perfect simple [wikipedia.org] tense? I think you'll find that nuanced grammar adds a delightful twist to the English language.
For instance:
Slashdot contributors and editors have discovered that applying simple grammatical principles can significantly enhance their audience's comprehension of stories posted on the site
Re:English grammar (Score:2)
Re:English grammar (Score:2)
Curious (Score:2)
Re:Curious (Score:2)
It definitely predated Ptolomy's ptime, as I believe he made reference in one of his discourses to "the astrological instrument". This could have referenced the Antikythera device or some form of astrolabe ("star-taker", an analogue timepiece based on star elevation, which see) or quadrant, but it's pretty clear that some form of star-oriented calculator predated 60AD.
As an aside, "Astrological" in this sense was equivalent to "Astronomical", for it's
Re:Curious (Score:2, Informative)
The device is inscribed. The typography is the sort that was prevelant in the later half of the first century B.C. So are the words and the grammatical structure.
Two independant means of dating accord with each other.
The specific figure 80 B.C. comes from an estimate of its age being 65 B.C. +/- 15 year
Re:Curious (Score:2)
Years B.C. are essentially negative numbers, so 80BC was 2086 years ago and 50BC was 2056 years ago. So their estimate is really the oldest it could be.
Re:Curious (Score:2)
The hands stopped at five past six, March 3 80 BC.
How ironic (Score:2)
No, we don't know what they knew (Score:4, Insightful)
And what makes us think that most Greeks believed in a geocentric universe? We know precious little about what they knew back then, since we have only a handful of their writings. To insinuate that we have anything like a complete map of the intellectual landscape of the time is sheerest puffery.
A minute's thought might convince us that a heliocentric model was available to them: They knew the earth was a sphere; they knew its size; they knew the sun was far enough away that its rays arrived parallel for all intents and purposes. Add to that that as soon as someone tried to build something like the Antikythera Mechanism they must perforce have noticed (as did Kepler a millennium and a half later) that it's far easier to model the heavens if you place the sun in the center rather than the earth.
Even this mechanism itself cannot be unique, as some articles about it have hinted. An automaton/clockwork/astronomical model this complex cannot have leapt full-formed from the mind of a single inventor. There must be an entire lineage of similar devices. That we have only a single example is simply a hint that there was much more to their technology than we're currently aware of. It's also an indication of how easy it is for a cultural calamity to erase collective memories of high tech; a warning for our times if nothing is. Not to mention that the correct ideas are not necessarily those which survive such a calamity. After all, when the Roman Empire fell, Medieval Europe inherited the Ptolemaic model. Of course, by then Ptolemy was writing (ca. 150) he probably had to work without the benefit of the bulk of the Royal Library at Alexandria [bede.org.uk] so he may have been left to his own devices when considering a model of planetary motion.
Re:No, we don't know what they knew (Score:2)
I particularly love how we treat these ancient cultures as monolithic and do not make allowances for multiple popular theories. They either 'Are' heliocentric or they 'Are Not' heliocentric. We love to take one find
Re:No, we don't know what they knew (Score:2)
I didn't. The mechanism was most likely intended to model planetary motion. Whether it was used as a navigational device is unknown. (It was found in a shipwreck, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was used on shipboard since it may have been part of the cargo, a possession of one of the passengers, etc.)
Besides, you meant "astronomy". The mechanism has nothing to do with cosmology.
My God! (Score:2, Funny)
Sorry, had to.
Anyone noticed the Arab racist troll? (Score:3, Interesting)
"It also adds support to the idea that there was an ancient Greek tradition of complex mechanical technology which was later transmitted to the Arab world, where similar but simpler devices were built during the medieval period. Of course, they had to copy it. Jawas would never come up with such a white device on their own."
I couldn't believe what I was seeing, and I refreshed, and it dissapeared. But I found it again in the edits [wikipedia.org] and that blew me away.
Shame on the racist troll asshole that put that up. (NB: it wasn't me!)
Anachronism (Score:2)
I have the decode here (Score:2)
This proves it's art, not a device. (Score:2)
Re:Its an analog computer... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Its an analog computer... (Score:2)
Nah... Back then Beowulf ran only on stand alone kings.
I'm pretty sure the command line went something like this:
500AD Beowulf@Denmark: sudo kill Grendel
500AD Beowulf@Denmark: grep Ale&Whores
Yes, but it was pre-Beowulf cluster so who cares? (Score:2)
Re:Its an analog computer... (Score:3, Funny)
Most likely, it runs NetBSD. The 2006.1 release of Gentoo Linux will support it too.
Re:Its an analog computer... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Its an analog computer... (Score:2, Funny)
I call moderation shenanigans! (Score:3, Interesting)
labelling me redundant when I was the first comment.
I call Shenangians!
Re:Very cool... (Score:2)
Re:Very cool... (Score:2)
Re:the fun part... (Score:2)
Re:Is it just me? (Score:2)
Nerdy types were renowned in the ancient world for providing people who asked for directions with cleverly deceptive answers, hence the saying "Beware of geek's bearing grifts".
Re:Unfortunately that word was... (Score:2)
*Tosses Antikythere overboard*
Re:First Name (Score:3, Funny)
It is far worse than you think. (Score:2)