Toshiba Subsidizes $200/Unit on New HD Player 222
WestTexasWaltz writes "According to a teardown analysis, Toshiba is losing $200 per unit, of its new HD DVD player, in order to gain some marketshare. Interesting that integrated circuits account for more of the cost than the drive itself. Also, this particular analyst concludes that Blu-ray and HD-DVD will "not be a repeat of VHS vs. Beta" and that a stalemate is the likely outcome."
Stalemate means consumers LOSE (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Stalemate means consumers LOSE (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Stalemate means consumers LOSE (Score:2, Insightful)
Give it five years, and I can guarantee there won't be a stalemate. Consumers or industry will not want to deal with both, and someone will find a way to make one format rise to the top. Let's home DRM is killed off by then.
Re:Stalemate means consumers LOSE (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Stalemate means consumers LOSE (Score:2)
I actaully thought DVDs were the opposite and limited it on the digital ones.
Don't Confuse /.'rs with Videophile Early Adopters (Score:5, Interesting)
All that proves is that you are NOT a Videophile and are certainly NOT a Audio/Videophile early adopter. The fact is Stores are having a hard time Keeping the Toshiba HD-DVD's on the shelf. People are buying them, and the price support is is helping that I am sure, the price is not too bad the PQ is awesome and they do a heck of a job upconverting. And us Videophiles DO care about SD vs HD. I can't certainly tell and enjoy the difference in PQ betwee SD and HD on my fine display.
Re:Don't Confuse /.'rs with Videophile Early Adopt (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Stalemate means consumers LOSE (Score:2)
To me this seems to be a logical thing to do until the execs can remove there heads from their rectum.
Re:Stalemate means consumers LOSE (Score:2)
No, Stalemate means consumers WIN (Score:3, Informative)
Even if that comes to pass, don't bet on the big players seeing DRM as a major factor in the formats' demise. However, if they watch a boatload of R&D capital go down the drain while outlets of unencumbered content (e.g. mp3tunes.com and emusic.com) gain market share, who knows - perhaps a light could go on somewhere, or perhaps a foundation or open consortium could s
Re:No, Stalemate means consumers WIN (Score:2)
Is it safe to assume that these players can play non-DRM formated HD movies? In that case the only problem is the MPAA monopoly that will only sell DRM'd movies, ie a non-hardware issue.
You should be able to download a HD movie from a torrent, and record it to a HD disk, correct? I am guessing you will have to pay-up a second license for a license to encode a disk, tha
Re:Stalemate means consumers LOSE (Score:2, Funny)
All we have to wait for is... (Score:3, Insightful)
It's DVD-R and DVD+R all over again. Only with slightly better picture quality, if you have the right setup.
The best part (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The best part (Score:2)
Re:The best part (Score:2)
As soon as one format takes a lead and hardware producers are tempted to drop the other one, royalties for that one will magically approach zero.
Royalties might even end up cheaper overall with two rivaling formats than with one format monopoly.
Re:All we have to wait for is... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:All we have to wait for is... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:All we have to wait for is... (Score:5, Informative)
The only difference there is spindle speed, 1.2:1 difference to be exact, DVD+R to DVD-R. The underlying technology and interface are exactly the same beyond that.
Wrong. There are significant differences in tracking, linking, and error management.
HD-DVD uses a standard red laser operating at a much lower wavelength of light
Swing and a miss. Both Bul-ray and HD-DVD use a 405nm blue laser.
Beyond the cost for a blue laser system, you then have to support two dual chip sets for processing HD-DVDs and Blu-Ray discs because of the completely different DRM standards being used.
Nope. Both Blu-ray and HD-DVD use AACS.
And yes, this is hardware decoded in consumer devices so you're talking about quite a cost if you wanted to build custom ASICs to do both in one chipset, in licensing fees alone!
You clearly don't understand the IC market very well. There are ASICs that handle the vast majority of the needs for a DVD player, including drive servo / spindle control, MPEG2 decoding, multiple different audio formats (MP2/AC3/DTS, often MP3 and WMA as well), video scaling, OSD generation, and, in many cases, even incorporate a microcontroller.
Extreme integration is very common for a market this size.
Chineese make crap remotes... (Score:3, Interesting)
* crap looking designs, made by engineers that probably only have used remotes themselves in the last 5 years, not from 1985 when they were kids. Having
that indirect experience of good/crap remotes help in design.
* week IR power, why is it their remotes are so damn week, needing 30deg field or 5ft distance? Do they use crap LEDs or bad software reading it?
Are their test clients living in closets? Common, get with it, even in 1990 we had son
Re:All we have to wait for is... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:All we have to wait for is... (Score:3, Interesting)
region locking and forced content (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't give a rat's ass about HD-DVD or BluRay or any new format... until a player comes out (third-party hacked or not) which overcomes the MPAA's nefarious ideas about region encoding or forced chapters. If you want some market share, grow some balls and deliver a machine that plays the media *I* purchased anytime that *I* want to, without sending a colorectal scan to the governments and corporations of the world. And while you're at it, make false advertising phrases like "Own it on HD-DVD today!" completely off limits.
Re:region locking and forced content (Score:2)
May not have region locking (Score:3, Interesting)
One nice thing for those in the US is that even with region coding on, for Blu-Ray Japan and the US are considered to be the same region. Great for games and just as good for anime.
Re:region locking and forced content (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:region locking and forced content (Score:2)
blu-ray can play movies from Japan and the USA when it's released in those countrys (Region 1), but neither can play the PAL format (Region 2) or any other country's (Region 3-5)
as for HD-DVD last I had heard is it was exactly like DVD in everyway just bigger, so we would still have the exact same region codings as we have now.
Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD, the winner is... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD, the winner is... (Score:2)
Re:Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD, the winner is... (Score:2)
Re:Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD, the winner is... (Score:2)
I think the winner will be determined by what ships by default with the most computers, as that is the number one place people currently have the capability to watch HDTV* and so they can burn/back up their data. DVD isn't enough for this purpose anymore, but I think HVD (if it's not vaporware) will provide a bigger capacity at a lower price than Blu-ray/HD-DVD.
*Nearly every computer monitor had the resolution for ages or at least the last 5-8 years.
Re:Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD, the winner is... (Score:2)
Re:Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD, the winner is... (Score:2)
Re:Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD, the winner is... (Score:2, Insightful)
If I recall correctly, the data storage is 25 GB per side, whereas HD-DVD is 15 GB. In this respect Blu-ray is a given winner simply because it has more space, say for archival reasons. What would you archive? pr0n!
But seriously, this will become handy...why were 2 GB HDs and 16 megs of ram good 10 years ago?
What's it going to be 10 years in the future? 4.2 GB is gonna be tiny!
In this respect, Blu-ray wins; HOWEVER, the only way these two formats w
Linux (Score:5, Funny)
Since it's a standard Pentium 4 PC design, it seems pretty obvious that the player software will be "liberated" eventually.
Re:Linux (Score:2)
Re:Linux (Score:2)
Yeah an embedded product should be able to do better, but either way it's going to take a lot of cycles.
My guess is they're just using a P4 for now because there's already x86 -- mmx, sse, sse2, etc, optimized algorithms available. Probably in the future after the format war dies down we'll see custom chips designed specifically for decoding the HD signals, which will drive the price down to a more reasonable l
Re:Linux (Score:3, Interesting)
Hm (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyway I for one will just sit and wait a few years until Samsung finally gets their way and gets to start making hybrid players that support both HD-DVDs and Blu-Rays. Samsung's said they want to, they're just being held up by consortium politics. I think those consortiums will get a little more lenient once time passes and they realize everyone's still just buying DVDs.
Re:Hm (Score:2)
Sony, on the other hand, seems to be betting the entire company. Sony needs to succeed in selling players, selling PS3s, and selling films.
Re:Hm (Score:2)
So, is the fact that they're massively subsidizing the HD-DVD players a sign of trouble for Toshiba, or like everything else is it only a bad thing when Sony does it?
I'm not sure that Toshiba's subsidies are a bad sign; hardware manufacturers have done this for years to gain marketshare for software, accessories, etc. I think the bad sign is that this week at Best Buy, Blu-Ray 'DVDs' are buy 3, get 1 free.
Anyone planning on buying HD-DVD or Bluray? (Score:3)
So, the best test I can come up with is asking early adopters if they plan on buying either player, or if a dual format player if it were available. Slashdot tends to have a lot of early adopters, so how about it? Is anyone chomping at the bit for these things, or will the format war and the "good enough" state of current DVDs relegate this product to the likes of Laserdisc and Sony Minidisc?
Re:Anyone planning on buying HD-DVD or Bluray? (Score:5, Insightful)
Blu-Ray with PS3 (Score:3, Interesting)
Having had a taste of HD video (on Dish, which I eventually cancled due to repitition of content) I actually am looking forward to some movies in true HD. Even 720P looks so much nicer than even normal digital cable, you don't need to get a 1080p set for dramatic effect.
I'm putting off buying the new Star Wars box set until a re-release in a higher definition format.
Re:Blu-Ray with PS3 (Score:2, Funny)
I'm putting off buying the new Star Wars box set until a re-release in a higher definition format.
You mean the version where neither Han, nor Greedo shoot and have a tickle fight instead?
The one after (Score:2)
Or perhaps that will be after the 3-D versions are released in HD... (not kidding).
Re:Anyone planning on buying HD-DVD or Bluray? (Score:2)
Saying "DVD is good enough" is the same thing as saying "SD TV is good enough resolution, nobody needs the resolution provided from HDTV".
But that's dead wrong... consoles have decided that SD is not good enough. OTA TV broadcasts, cable and satellite have decided that SD is not good enough. WM9 and Quicktime have decided that SD is not good enough.
There's so much HD content available already that eventually, >50% of people will buy an HDTV.
Re:Anyone planning on buying HD-DVD or Bluray? (Score:2)
OTA TV broadcasts, cable and satellite have decided that SD is not good enough. WM9 and Quicktime have decided that SD is not good enough.
But have consumers decided that SDTV isn't good enough? I don't see many people buying HDTVs. There's some, but really SDTV is fine for the price HDTVs are going for. DVD is even better resolution than SDTV, so people are really settling for less quality than DVD can offer.
There's so much HD content available already that eventually, >50% of people will buy an HDTV.
Pick A Winner (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Pick A Winner (Score:4, Insightful)
Blockbuster and Netflix have an interest in seeing one win, but thats because they don't sell hardware, so they only get the negatives of dual inventory, not the profits.
Re:Pick A Winner (Score:2)
Re:Pick A Winner (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Pick A Winner (Score:2)
Netflix and blockbuster will choose on the basis of what machines are sold. It does them no good to stock something if only four people have the machine. When the PS3 begins to sell, and blockbuster starts renting the games, it would ma
Re:Pick A Winner (Score:2, Informative)
Wrong vendors (Score:2, Insightful)
HD-DVD Target Demographic...Is Where? (Score:3, Interesting)
The battle was fought last year. HD-DVD lost badly. The studios have rallied around BluRay. As 1080p TVs fall into the sub-1000 dollar range over the next year there will be a battle between people sticking with the old DVD format. And then life will move on with BluRay until the next standard comes about a few years later.
Re:HD-DVD Target Demographic...Is Where? (Score:2)
Re:HD-DVD Target Demographic...Is Where? (Score:2)
What are you smoking?
Why would Toshiba do this? (Score:3, Informative)
Since I don't follow Blu-ray vs HD-DVD too closely, is Toshiba the only manufacturer of HD-DVD? What is their incentive for marketshare in this area?
From the article:
I heard that video game consoles being loss leaders was an urban legend, perhaps due to faulty analysis. The companies, especially Nintendo, break even pretty much at time of launch. Or may take a slight loss but nothing like $200 per unit.
One year of -$200 for 10+ years of +$50 (Score:2)
Re:Why would Toshiba do this? (Score:3, Interesting)
This article is an ad for iSuppli Corp and their teardown services. Having read their similar analysis of the XBox 360 [linuxelectrons.com] and iMac Core Duo [appleinsider.com], I'm underwhelmed with everything that's come out of them. There's a lot of estimates based on the general going rate for buying things, but I don't see any reason to believe iSuppli has real insight into the part pricing scale a company like Toshiba receives on their
Re:Why would Toshiba do this? (Score:2, Insightful)
Royalties. (Score:3, Interesting)
Loosing a few bucks on initial HD DVD shipments is chump change in comparison.
Wow. Deep thinker. (Score:3, Funny)
Wow, such insight. Given that the reason we had to "choose sides" before was that VHS and Beta were analog systems and were physically incompatible, I don't understand why anyone with half a brain would compare it with this. It seems downright obvious that what we're probably going to end up with is combination HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players. Evidence DVD[-RAM|-R|+R] drives. The only argument left is whose obnoxious DRM is going to ruin the party.
Re:Wow. Deep thinker. (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, that's just retarded
"History be damned! No one will win *this* format war. The merits of these products are similar, and these things are always won on technological merit."
Wow. Brute force approach. (Score:3, Insightful)
Is that overkill or what? Sounds like they don't have all the decoding hardware ready, so they went with that. Otherwise, all decoding could be done on a specifically designed chip, not needing anything as powerful as a P4, and I don't really see what they want that much RAM for. The flash size can probably fit the required parts of the OS without any trimming. Either that, or they've got lots of graphics there.
Re:Wow. Brute force approach. (Score:2)
My guess is to cache A LOT of the video in RAM since it will have to be software decoded and it would be quicker that way. There most likely will be a buffer of decoded video as well that is stored in RAM. It still seems like a lot of RAM but it may be necessary for the hack job they put together.
What argument is there against a Blu-Ray win? (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes the PS3 is expensive. Put that aside for a second, does anyone doubt that millions will sell in the US alone within months of the launch? That then in turn is a few million consumers that will be able to play Blu-Ray media, and you know Sony is not going to pass up a chance to push Blu-Ray along with the PS3 including some Blu-Ray media in the PS3 box.
Contrast that against the still very expensive Toshiba player, and less than thirty HD titles. How long will it take to even get 100k units sold?
Studios would seem to agree with this assesment as there are more studios backing Blu-Ray than HD-DVD.
On the computer front for storage alone, why would you buy an HD-DVD burner when Blu-Ray discs hold more data, and the blank discs themselves seem to be cheaper (in a Slashdot study of Japanese HD media a few months back the HD-DVD 20GB media was more expensive than Blu-Ray 25GB media).
I can't see personally how the situation looks anything like a stalemate. It looks like a rout in the making. Would HD-DVD even be around if Microsoft was not still backing it? And would HD-DVD even still be pushed by Microsfot if it was not for HD-DVD using Microsofts own menuing system for movies (for which they would of course collect licencing fees), not to mention Blu-Ray using a menuing system based on a form of Java? Microsoft seems to be backing HD-DVD more out of hubris than anything else.
Re:What argument is there against a Blu-Ray win? (Score:3, Insightful)
If you'll look at the released Blu-ray movies, you'll note that somehow they mostly have fewer features on them than their supposedly smaller DVD counterparts. The released HDDVD's on the other hand, all have at least the same amount, and some of them have movie length added features.
How could this be? with Blu-ray's huge storage advantage? For that, you need to look closer at what they've actually managed to ship.
Shipping: HDDVD - 30GB dual layer discs. V
Quality argument is moot, and you got it wrong too (Score:2)
A
Wait a sec - your "space advantage" is nil! (Score:2)
First Movie Titles and Disc Capacity.
In a recent column, I observed how much disc space was utilized by eight HD DVD titles. Even though all eight titles relied on the latest video codecs--VC-1 and MPEG-4 AVC, both of which are more efficient encoders than MPEG-2--most of the titles showed signs of pushing HD DVD's capacity limits. The Last Samurai topped out at 27.3GB, Mel Brooks's Blazing Saddles at 25.4GB, The
Consider the implications of your statements (Score:2)
Agreed. Let's say only 5% of pS3 buyers actually buy Blu-Ray media out of the gate, with 3 million units sold. (a figure I think is terribly underestimated).
That's still 150k people buying Blu-Ray media!
Now the other side of the coin you are not thinking of is POTENTIAL market. Marking is all about "what is the size of the potential market I can reach". It's not considering how many PS3 owners are actually buying Blu-Ray discs so much as how m
Toshiba has decided to Win the War (Score:3, Insightful)
It's that simple.
Look, the major revenue is not the players themselves - it's the licenses for the patents from the manufacturers, the license fees from the people cranking out the discs (HD-DVD or Blu-Ray), the license fees from the music, the movies, the motion
You get the drift.
You can either play to win - or you can lose and look good doing so.
Usefulness (Score:2)
Except that $500 box can let me play Assassin's Creed [eurogamer.net], while the Toshiba box lets me see some 30 different HD titles most of which I have already seen.
Not to mention that I get games with a wider range of textures and environements and content due to the increased storage offered. There is benefit to gamers beyond just beign able to watch movies in HD.
Your thoughts that Sony has decided to loose the way by offering a b
Re:Usefulness (Score:2, Insightful)
Not everyone likes to spend more than $500 on a lark.
[caveat - I liked the E3 demo so much, I sold my 400 shares of MSFT and
Wii looks great as well (Score:2)
But once you've seen real HD video on a good screen... well it's worth some bother. And there's nothing wrong with wanting a system with as unique games as the Wii will have along with a system built for sheer graphical power like the PS3.
$500 is not a lark if you plan to use the system for many years. It's a carefully considered gaming upgrade.
Re:Usefulness (Score:2)
I highly doubt this will be an issue. A dual layer HD-DVD maxes out at 30GB which, yes, is 20 GB less than a dual layer Blu-Ray disc but I highly doubt any games will come close to using that much space with the majority of it taken up by textures and environment details. The only thing that I can think of that would be able to fill that space up rather quickly is HD video clips
More to game video that cut-scenes (Score:2)
Hundres of dollars of UI (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes that would be nice, but I can live with a somewhat poorer interface for a savings of hundreds of dollars. I would like a blu-ray or HD-DVD player but I simply cannot justify a standalone unit, while I can justify a Blu-Ray and game console together (especially one that can replace an aging P
Stalemate? (Score:2)
Stalemate my ass! There can be only one [imdb.com]! On the other hand, none of those films have been released in HD-DVD or Blu-Ray yet.
Does that mean sony is making a tidy profit? (Score:3, Interesting)
Good guess (Score:3, Insightful)
I honestly cannot see Toshiba grabbing a lot more marketshare with a $500 player than Sony with a $1k player; Given how few titles are out at the moment both are impractical for the average (or even not so average) consumer.
The first one that can be copied (Score:2)
Re:The first one that can be copied (Score:2)
That is so evil it might just work!
Wait and See (Score:5, Insightful)
I can wait. Specifically, I can wait until they issue "Apocalypse Now" and other cinematographer's triumphs in 1080p and you can get a large 1080p TV and a player for it (that either plays the winning format, or both formats if the War is protracted) for a total under $1500.
With DVDs, I note that one can currently get computers (MythTV, etc) that will ignore all the playing restrictions. Here's my "horror" story on that.
I have a nice Pioneer DVR/DVD player (520H) that never met a DRM instruction it didn't obey slavishly. Not only will it not so much as record from a protected video tape, or tape made from DVD (that THAT, analogue hole) but it won't FFWD during the FBI warning or any of the corporate logos, or *ADS* if they choose to put that rule on their disc. The screen shows "That Operation is Forbidden by This Disc" when you hit the remote button repeatedly while waiting some minutes for your movie to actually start.
The other day, I popped in a disk while some news was on, and it started loading. Just at that moment, major breaking news hit the TV channel...and the DVD screen started showing the FBI warning. Frantically, I hit the STOP, then the EJECT buttons on the remote. But no, even those just got "That Operation is Forbidden By This Disc". Nothing could make it stop showing the FBI Warning and go back to the TV feed.
On discs with trailers and ads you can't skip, I've learned to pop in the disc and walk away from the TV for several minutes, because I get so mad if I stay. It's so great to put DVDs in my computer upstairs, where Kaffiene cheerfully skips all that crap and goes right to the movie I paid for, when I hit "go to Menu".
Maybe the computer world will defeat the DRM on an HD disk enough so that I can be the one to say what the computer is forbidden and allowed to do; that would make me opt in to this new technology, too.
But for a couple of years, I'm just going to wait and see. See DVDs. With a Linux media-computer that puts me in charge of my own damn living room.
Re:Wait and See (Score:3, Funny)
I believe that that "that" was not that that you intended.
Not worth it. Check it out at your local store... (Score:3, Informative)
I think both HD-DVD and Blu-ray are a bust.
How accurate are their numbers? (Score:3, Informative)
anyways, they could be taking a loss per unit, but i am really skeptical about the numbers being given in the parent article.
Plain Old DVD Is Just Fine By Me... (Score:2)
Re:Where's the DoJ's Anti-Trust Division? (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh and it doesnt count anymore if you sponsor the party of the president. (better sponsor both candidates)
Re:Where's the DoJ's Anti-Trust Division? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Where's the DoJ's Anti-Trust Division? (Score:5, Informative)
Selling below cost may not be "dumping" (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, that's correct. (Score:3, Informative)
It's kind of like how owning a gun is only illegal when a convicted felon does it. Do you complain about the injustice there?
Like a gun, it's not predatory pricing itself that's illegal. It's what you do with the predatory pricing that's illegal. Toshiba is in this case not doing anything anything in their actio
Re:Where's the DoJ's Anti-Trust Division? (Score:2)
Re:Yay (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Odd (Score:2)
Er, name them. I've been looking for such a box for a long time with no luck.
Re:Doing the Math (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Stillborn (Score:2)
The real question is - will the average consumer consider the increased resolution to be enough of an improvement to repurchase movies?
DVDA as a format really only appeals to audiophiles with high quality equipment. The mass market consumer driven product competing with CD players turned out to be MP3 players - which produce lower quality audio. Convenience trumped quality.
Initially HD-DVD and BluRay as well as HDTV are still priced on the h
Re:Stillborn (Score:2)