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Surprising Burning Crusade Details for WoW

Hemos posted about 8 years ago | from the good-move dept.


Heartless Gamer writes "There is quite a few surprises waiting in World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade. The raiding scene in World of Warcraft is going to dramatically change once Burning Crusade is released. Here's the long and short of it: all of the new high-end raid content will be capped at 25 heads. Indeed, all the raid content that was mentioned in today's demo, with the exception of Kharazan (which is designed for 10 players) is being designed around a force of 25. Blizzard has completely done away with 40-man raiding; Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, the Temple of Ahn'Qiraj, and Naxxrammas will still exist, of course. There just isn't going to be any new 40-man content. How's that for earth-shattering?"

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"How's that for earth-shattering?" (4, Insightful)

keyne9 (567528) | about 8 years ago | (#15895411)

I prefer the term "sanity."

Re:"How's that for earth-shattering?" (1)

wwiiol_toofless (991717) | about 8 years ago | (#15895780)

I think this will be great for all the casual guilds having trouble mustering for the 40-mans.

Re:"How's that for earth-shattering?" (0, Troll)

WCD_Thor (966193) | about 8 years ago | (#15895881)

Not earth shattering at all, considering I find WoW pretty dumb, thank you very much. And from an outside perspective, 15 less players isn't that big of a deal, but thats just me.

Earthshattering? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895414)

How's that for earth-shattering?

Since this is /. , and there still isn't a comment crying about these forthcoming changes, I guess not too earthshattering.

Big deal (5, Insightful)

Aadain2001 (684036) | about 8 years ago | (#15895422)

There won't be any at launch time, but that does not preclude Blizzard from adding 40 person raid content later. Remember, WoW had only a single 40 person raid when it was released: Molten Core. Over the past two years, we have seen the addition of three more 40 person raid instances, and two 20 person raids. It would not suprise me at all of Blizzard caves into the raiding minority and releases several 40 person raids in a row, each following the same pattern as before: give out the best items and best store lines to raids with 40 people.

Re:Big deal (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895487)

It's always possible, but it's definitely not the focus for the Burning Crusade expansion. As we add new content to the game, it's influenced heavily by everything that we've learned from past design implementation. From a design standpoint, there is much more we can accomplish in creating smaller raid environments. From a player's standpoint, it represents a greater potential for less time devoted to downtime and also allows for easier and faster coordination.

We're still very focused on creating epic raid encounters that provide epic challange, and from what I've seen we're dead on course. So, to answer your question, there are no plans at this time to create raid environments that exceed a player-cap of 25, however, we will always evolve this game in the direction that we feel is most beneficial and on a long enough time line, it's difficult to state what's in-store.
Eyonix: ow-general&t=9480853&s=blizzard&tmp=1#blizzard []

Basically what it comes down to (3, Insightful)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | about 8 years ago | (#15895732)

Is they'll do what they feel makes their players the happiest, and thus keeps them playing the longest. My guess is that their experience with their current raid instances shows people like the 20-man concept more. If there's demand for 40-man raids though, they'll come back.

Translation : (1)

MMaestro (585010) | about 8 years ago | (#15895746)

So, to answer your question, there are no plans at this time to create raid environments that exceed a player-cap of 25, however, we will always evolve this game in the direction that we feel is most beneficial and on a long enough time line, it's difficult to state what's in-store.

Translation : We got bitched at by the majority of players for making end-game too hardcore. We're gonna try going with a 25-man cap and see what happens seeing as the 10-man runs turned out to be a total waste of time due to sheer difficulty and poor rewards.

And for the record, yes I do subscribe and play WoW.

Re:Big deal (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895678)

Well, I for one left WoW because of how it seemed that Blizzard was only developing for those people who were in very large (organized) guilds. I have always prefered to be in a small (10-30) person guild where everyone knows each-other than these massive (200+) person guilds; it seems like you have to be in a reasonably large guild just to be in a position where you can "punch-in" at 5:00pm on thursday to raid.

High end raid content made WoW far more boring than my job, so I quit WoW.

Re:Big deal (1)

Aadain2001 (684036) | about 8 years ago | (#15896050)

That is why I canceled my WoW account as well. This news about smaller raid content does have me excited and looking foward to renewing my account when the expansion is released. The raiding content currently in game is too much like a job to be fun, hence why I canceled my account last month.

Damn, now I'll have to get a girlfriend (0)

andrewman327 (635952) | about 8 years ago | (#15895427)

I think that this will not affect things too drastically, although it will take some getting used to. Maybe this will make people spend a little more time in that mystical "real world." Oh wait, no it won't.

OMG (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895431)

That means 15 people in my guild are now expected to go out and get jobs and girlfriends instead of raiding?!? INSANITY!!

Re:OMG (1)

wakaru (981372) | about 8 years ago | (#15896141)

yea this is my concern to for raiding guilds. Alot of guilds are based on a 5 per class standard so they take 5 of each class on every 40 man raid. with addition of shamen and paladins to cross factions this adds a bit of chaos. then with the 25 man we are going to have to have 15 ppl sit out. or we are going to have to run 2 25 man instances at the same time and recruit more ppl or something.

wow = horrible game (2, Insightful)

brennz (715237) | about 8 years ago | (#15895436)

WoW is a horrible game.

The vast majority of endgame play revolves around endless rep farming, honor farming in BGs, and doing yet another instance run.

So many PVPers played WOW, only to find out how bad the PVP system really is. Risk free pvp. Nothing remotely comparable to UO during the tank mage era. Instead, overgeared dimwits burning cooldowns. != skill. This led to a huge PVPer exodus from WoW.

Soon, there will be a huge exodus of the sheep out of WoW, I'm not sure to which game yet though.

Promising candidates include: [] [] php []

Re:wow = horrible game (4, Insightful)

Incoherent07 (695470) | about 8 years ago | (#15895454)

Do you really, honestly think that the "sheep" you talk about have any desire whatsoever to play a game that demands any more out of them than WoW does? (Vanguard, I'm looking at you.)

Re:wow = horrible game (3, Insightful)

brennz (715237) | about 8 years ago | (#15895490)

WoW's requirements for nonstop grinding instances isn't fun.

MMO gamers want balanced skill-based pvp, functional economies not exploited by chinese-farmers, the freedom to create unique player-made content (like Shadowbane/EVE-Online), and to determine their own friends/enemies rather than being forced into pre-made "factions".

WoW fails in all those regards.

MMO gamers would move, provided a good improvement emerged.

Re:wow = horrible game (3, Insightful)

MuNansen (833037) | about 8 years ago | (#15895536)

lol. I love how someone proclaims that "MMO gamers" want everything that the #1 MMO in the world fails to give. Thank goodness game development is left to the professionals and not the average board poster.

Re: your fallacious logic (4, Insightful)

brennz (715237) | about 8 years ago | (#15895575)

Popularity does not mean satisfaction.
Primacy in the market does not mean superiority either.
It could be merely because a better alternative does not exist, or how horrible the other competing solutions are, or a game learning curve issue.

Considering how many MMOs have actually been a market success versus the recent number of failures, perhaps the average board poster should be more involved in game development or requirements solicitation?

Re: your fallacious logic (2, Interesting)

drsquare (530038) | about 8 years ago | (#15895841)

So if MMO players like games like Eve and not WoW, why are they all playing WoW and not Eve? Perhaps you've miscalculated what most MMO players want, assuming your own preferences are universal.

People like WoW because it's easy. You don't need to think, there's no risk, nothing surprising, you can zone out, go afk, anything, and still progress.

Talk about pvp is irrelevant. I for one like pvp, but I'm in a minority, most people don't like it as it's unpredictable and you can lose even when you do everything right. People like fighting predictable mobs.

Re: your fallacious logic (2, Funny)

angel'o'sphere (80593) | about 8 years ago | (#15896081)

So if MMO players like games like Eve and not WoW, why are they all playing WoW and not Eve?
E.g. because Eve has no Mac client.


Re:wow = horrible game (5, Insightful)

tacarat (696339) | about 8 years ago | (#15895606)

WoW's requirements for nonstop grinding instances isn't fun.

MMO gamers want balanced skill-based pvp, functional economies not exploited by chinese-farmers, the freedom to create unique player-made content (like Shadowbane/EVE-Online), and to determine their own friends/enemies rather than being forced into pre-made "factions".

WoW fails in all those regards.

MMO gamers would move, provided a good improvement emerged.

What I want is for MMOs to make a lot more variety in the lowbie quests. Doing the same lame little quests in the begining just to same quests at level cap isn't fun. It kills replayablity. I'd like long term, story driven choices. Hell, I'd even support having a server where everybody started off maxxed out (rocket server, anyone?).

I'll agree with everything else but the farmer bit and WoW being a horrible game. I personally don't care about the farmers as long as they don't harass me, at which point they're just being individual pricks and should not represent the entire community. I've known enough gold farmers that mind their own business and grind, not bothering anybody. Many of the people who complain about farmers driving up prices the most are the first ones to snatch up the cheap, mass farmed goods and then resell at higher prices. If not, they're the ones ignorant of how prices would be if it was 100% player orientated. Supply and demand, plus the farmer's need to sell quickly, benefit many players, whether they admit it or not. This is especially true of commodity items like cloth, skins and even potions. Every time that the prices on those skyrocketed, it was due to "regular players", and was always brought back down by farmers that continued to sell at the lower, older price or cheaper. There are problems with quest mobs on occasion, but that happens with regular players who are farming the quest mob for the drops. The only difference between them and the regular farmer is the language barrier.

As far as WoW being a horrible game... Well, I liked it. I got bored eventually, but that's true of all games. I was heavily into CoH before that. Just because a game can still be improved on doesn't mean it 100% sucks right now.

Re:wow = horrible game (2, Insightful)

garylian (870843) | about 8 years ago | (#15895608)

Actually, considering that most players that play MMOs tend to pick PvE servers as opposed to PvP servers when both are offered, that we can easily poke holes in your assumption that "MMO gamers want balanced skill-based pvp".

WoW has been successful because the casual gamer can play it easily. It isn't for the die-hard PvP'er.

Since Shadowbane has been a major flop as a primarily PvP game, I would hardly call it a great model. And V:SoH is going to be mostly PvE, with PvP servers offered in limited amounts.

Yes, WoW offered little but grind at lvl 60. So did EQ at lvl 50 initially, and at lvl 60, too. It wasn't until there were AAs and the ability to customize some gear with stats/resists that things got better.

And if gameplay in UO was so great, how come they were losing so much marketshare that they had to go to a model that allowed people to not be PK'ed? Sure, that killed the remaining population off, but they were losing the subscription battle to EQ already, and numbers were dropping.

So, in MY opinion, most MMO players don't want PvP at all, or limited PvP. Which is what WoW offered them. You might not like how it turned out, but a whole lot of others did, to the tune of the best subscription numbers for a North American MMO ever.

Re:wow = horrible game (2, Interesting)

brennz (715237) | about 8 years ago | (#15895722)

Most MMO players want PVP. Although more Americans want PVE type of servers, americans as a percentage of total MMO players cannot shift the balance towards PVE thanks to our asian MMO brethren that prefer PVP. (There is a study on this, but I don't have a URL for it)

Casual gamers are not competitive in WoW. They may hit 60. They will never have the big raid content, or obtain highend PVP rewards. If they were obtaining those things, they wouldn't be casual gamers because of the massive time contributions required for those rewards.

Shadowbane failed because of it's poor engine and sb.exe (notorious client error). Wolfpack made a huge mistake trying to roll their own...... Mythic's DAOC had a far superior engine at that same time, yet SB stole a large amount of market share from DAOC until the client flaws killed it.

UO had a great PVP system during the tank mage era. This was for PVPers, against other PVPers, and so people without adequate skills became cannon fodder.

Your opinion about North American MMOs is accurate, but as a whole for the overall MMO market, PVP is preferred.

Re:wow = horrible game (1)

Duncan3 (10537) | about 8 years ago | (#15895754)

"functional economies not exploited by chinese-farmers"

Sorry, those days are long gone. Now MMO players just hope for games not completely controlled by chinese-farmers. Those games too are getting very very rare.

Re:wow = horrible game (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15896102)

Vanguard is definitely going to require about 10x more time commitment than wow. And that's just to run to the first quest!

Re:wow = horrible game (1)

Emetophobe (878584) | about 8 years ago | (#15895551)

I agree with you, WoW end game is the reason I quit. I had finished all the bg grinding (got all the exalted rewards in AB, WSG and AV for my rogue). I just got sick of having nothing to do end game other than farm for gold to use for repairs/etc while farming molten core once a week. It's just repetitive and Not Fun(tm).

Re:wow = horrible game (1)

grasshoppa (657393) | about 8 years ago | (#15895553)

Bitter much?

I hate to break it to you, but 1-60 is actually pretty fun. I love it. The dungeons, the small groups, the pvp ( the possiblity of getting ganked on a moment's notice ).

Once I hit 60 I retire that character. The 60+ farming isn't fun, I won't argue that. Oh, I may pull him out to do one of the lower 60 dungoens a couple times, but I refuse to grind.

Re:wow = horrible game (1)

brennz (715237) | about 8 years ago | (#15895593)

I'm not bitter.

WoW has its merits, primarily pre 60.

However, the endgame is a continual sore point.

If you compared this to UO endgame, or Shadowbane endgame, those games actually *BEGAN* at level/skill softcaps. Hitting 60 in WoW starts the instance grinding softcap instead.

Re:wow = horrible game (5, Insightful)

Wildclaw (15718) | about 8 years ago | (#15896012)

Raiding is one of the absoulte worst inventions ever. While at first, it may look like an excellent idea, it suffers from one serious flaw. It effectivly limits every single character(class) to what they are absolutly best at. (And if they are an all-round character they can just go home)

What you end up with is heal bots, buff bots, tank bots and damage bots. Whereas in a five man group, players will need to use their secondary skills because there isn't anyone in the group that has that skill as a primary. Five man groups also can contain more interesting combinations, while a raiding group always is constructed after the same formula.

The absolute worst part about raiding is how it tears the community apart. Unless you whore (whoring is the correct term since you effectivly is selling your body and soul) yourself out to a raiding guild, you will have no access whatsoever to the high end content. A pickup group of 5 people is workable. 10 people is possible, but tough. 25-40 people is impossible.

World of Warcraft had two big selling points. Excellent level 1-60 solo/party fun. Secondly it is a Blizzard product which automatically created a big fanbase (Although Blizzard has lost most of its original developers by now). After the release they have added a lot of raiding, and simultanously destroyed PvP due to messed up items strengths. Level 80 items doesn't work when you have level 60 special abilities, where some of the abilities scale with item strength, and others don't.

It also suffers from the same flaw as other MMORPGs. Beginner areas quickly empty, and at the end you end up with all the people in high level zones (Or instances). This is however something that I have no idea how to fix.

Re:wow = horrible game (2, Interesting)

Oopsz (127422) | about 8 years ago | (#15895566) []

Which has proved to me that great gameplay, clever writing and an absolutely huge community can make up for graphics in a MMORPG.

Re:wow = horrible game (1)

secolactico (519805) | about 8 years ago | (#15896006)

Which has proved to me that great gameplay, clever writing and an absolutely huge community can make up for graphics in a MMORPG.

People keep saying that. And I've been meaning to find out whether it's true, but a horribly slow site always makes me throw my hands up in frustration. I've never been able to sit for more than 20 minutes in this game, and the ocassional puns and wordplay that I've seen doesn't make up for it.

I know it's free and all, but I've never been able to find out if its enjoyable enough to patronize it (and even if I do, will that improve my game experience)?

Re:wow = horrible game (1)

Ghaun Hellborn (984560) | about 8 years ago | (#15895607)

Don't forget text based muds like Realms of the Dragon at

Re:wow = horrible game (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895629)

So if I leave WoW now then I am a sheep? What if I left last month (which I did)? Am I still a sheep?

Re:wow = horrible game (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895630)

Having never played an MMORG.. I didn't understand a word you said?
How times have passed me by!

Re:wow = horrible game (1)

Rayonic (462789) | about 8 years ago | (#15895634)

Why would people leave WoW? Didn't you read the article? They're totally revamping and expanding the PvP system, and nicely adding onto the raidgame.

Expect a surge in subscribers when the expansion is released.

Re:wow = horrible game (1)

ultranova (717540) | about 8 years ago | (#15895748)

Soon, there will be a huge exodus of the sheep out of WoW, I'm not sure to which game yet though.

I'd say Sociolotron [] . You can't beat sex as an attractor, and after grinding WoW for a few years I doubt they're looking for another fighting game.

Re:wow = horrible game (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895924)

after grinding WoW for a few years I doubt they're looking for another fighting game.

Why would the mass of gamers suddenly stop wanting fighting games now?

Re:wow = horrible game (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895814)

Yeah its horrible, so horrible that you played it all the way to the endgame!

Re:wow = horrible game (3, Insightful)

Shivetya (243324) | about 8 years ago | (#15895978)

and yet the continue with numbers that many games would be happy to have 10% of.

WOW isn't for you. It also isn't all about raiding, let alone PvP. It never was. I know people who have played multiple characters to 60 who don't see PvP or raiding as the game. To them its the world. See, not everyone looks to be uber. Many people, and probably a majority considering their numbers, look for an engrossing world that is fun to play in with friends. WOW succeeds brillantly because it is easy to play.

So many comment on the need for "hardcore" or difficult games. Well news to ya'll, they are already out there and most of them are floundering. Why? Because its a game. It isn't supposed to be work. The raids of WOW offer that *IF* you choose to devote time to it. There are many "simple" raids that can be done with friends and those are good enough for a lot of people.

If wow lost 1 player for every claim an exodus was coming because of PvP and Raiding there would be no one left. Fortunately some of the people making the claims do leave. People who cannot be satisfied in a game should not play a game.

Re:wow = horrible game (1)

Zutfen (841314) | about 8 years ago | (#15896005) []

Shards of Dalaya is an absolute blast to play. Sure it's got dated graphics by WoW's standards... but the storyline, loot, zones, is 100% unique and much more fun than the game it was derived from.

Winter's Roar may have been halted 14months ago, but it came back with a vengeance (a legal one, I might add) a few months later, as Shards of Dalaya.
Incentives for getting friends etc to play is a nice touch, too. It all adds a unique experience (pun intended) to MMORPG'ing.

Not to mention that the development staff is also working on a new, standalone MMORPG, called Dawntide.

Re: Surprising Burning Crusade Details for WoW (5, Insightful)

drivinghighway61 (812488) | about 8 years ago | (#15895440)

So you still have to treat WoW as a second job to play in the end-game? Great. Hopefully Blizzard will introduce some good non-set items in 5 or 10-man instances. I don't have the time to invest in raiding for 10+ hours a week, nor do I even have that desire. I do, however, have a few real-life friends that I'd love to be able to play with through the end-game. I realize Blizzard can get away with the crappy end-game WoW currently has, but it would be great if it were possible for players like me and thousands of others to still be viable without having a second job.

Dude! The endgame isn't FOR you (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895994)

The OTHER 85% of the content in WoW is for people like you --- people with jobs, lives, and no desire to spend 40 hours a week grinding the same instances time and time again in WoW.

Endgame content is for hardcore players, period. It HAS to be, because those players max out their characters the fastest and complain the loudest, that the game is boring because there is nothing for them to do. If you make it any easier or any less time-consuming, it will be too easy for the hardcore players and it won't consume the massive amounts of time they are willing to throw at the game.

Honestly -- up to about level 55, WoW was one of the more interesting MMORPGs I've played (it was certainly better than EQ, DAoC, CoH or SWG). You can actually solo all the way to 60 in WoW, and also do interesting instance encounters that should keep a casual group of players occupied for MONTHS.

If you played through to 60 in the first month and are now complaining about raid content, don't expect much sympathy from me. I spent almost a year in WoW getting my first character to 55, and I enjoyed it nearly all of that time. (Then I quit.)

CmdrTaco (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895447)

I heard that CmdrTaco had to change his name.

WTF?? (1)

October_30th (531777) | about 8 years ago | (#15895460)

Ok, so I am getting old and probably senile, but what the hell is this article about?

I've read the story on Slashdot and I've RTFA and I still don't get why it's such a big deal that "raiding will be different"?

Re:WTF?? (1)

0racle (667029) | about 8 years ago | (#15895489)

Because raiding is all WoW offers.

Re:WTF?? (3, Informative)

brennz (715237) | about 8 years ago | (#15895504)

Raiding, rep farming, and honor grinding = sums up all of WoW endgame.

Could someone remind me.. (0, Troll)

The Hobo (783784) | about 8 years ago | (#15895464)

Why this is on Slashdot? I'm sure this is on a ton of WoW-centric messageboards, and rightly so, but this is a forum on science and technology, not about one particular game that just so happens that the site owners play.

Re:Could someone remind me.. (2, Insightful)

Das Modell (969371) | about 8 years ago | (#15895538)

Have a look at the left sidebar. There's a Games category in there.

Re:Could someone remind me.. (1)

barfooz (936184) | about 8 years ago | (#15895547)

Slashdot: News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters.

Re:Could someone remind me.. (1, Insightful)

snowgirl (978879) | about 8 years ago | (#15895568)

Because maybe this is CmdrTaco's personal blog that just happens to be visited by everyone and their techie mother?

Seriously, if you don't like what's posted on Slashdot, don't complain about it, because the site isn't here to serve your personal desires. It's here to serve the personal desires of the editors. :P

Re:Could someone remind me.. (3, Insightful)

0racle (667029) | about 8 years ago | (#15895580)

News for Nerds
WoW is the current favorite. Just like not too long ago you heard all about Half-Life, and before that Doom, and before that ...

The Science and Technology is only one aspect of what the site is about.

Re:Could someone remind me.. (1)

drsquare (530038) | about 8 years ago | (#15895883)

There are many popular MMORPGs around, I don't see why WoW gets all the coverage.

Re:Could someone remind me.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15896066)

1: It's the most popular by a decent margin.
2: It doesn't get all the coverage. Eve Online gets a ton.

Re:Could someone remind me.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895625)

...but this is a forum on science and technology, not about one particular game that just so happens that the site owners play.

You must be new here! ;)

MMORPG (2, Interesting)

LParks (927321) | about 8 years ago | (#15895466)

When I played WoW, I liked the idea of large raids. I would've liked to see larger than 40 man raids IF the server and clients could handle it. I was in a guild that frequently had to turn away players from 40-man raids.

I think it is conducive to the idea of a MASSIVELY Multiplayer Online RPG to have large scale raids. It gives an epic feel.


Emetophobe (878584) | about 8 years ago | (#15895866)

Have you ever tried to manage a 40 person raid? Now try and imagine managing 80 people... In most raids all it takes is 1 person to fuck up and wipe everyone. Dealing with 40 people is bad enough, let's not get crazy now.


ZiakII (829432) | about 8 years ago | (#15896031)

Have you ever tried to manage a 40 person raid? Now try and imagine managing 80 people... In most raids all it takes is 1 person to fuck up and wipe everyone. Dealing with 40 people is bad enough, let's not get crazy now.

I used to mange 72 people raids in everquest, back when there was no spiffy raid tool, and btw back then god help you if one of your raid members screwed up the whole raid died (80% of the time).


Spikeles (972972) | about 8 years ago | (#15895953)

Just look at what happened at the opening of the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj....


Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895973)

You should play Dark Age of Camelot. Sometimes in RvR (Realm vs. Realm) you can see 50-150 people on each of the three sides fighting against eachother.

Major PvE raids tend to be as large or larger than those in WoW, although many DAOC players view them as a nuisance. But in DAoC it's not too hard to do some PvE to get the stuff you need then devote all of your time to RvR.


AlXtreme (223728) | about 8 years ago | (#15896200)

I agree, I don't see the 'massive' aspect of MMORPG's currently. Sure, 40-man raids can get chaotic, but 40 people, Quake could handle that number concurrently years ago. Guess it's a balance between the number of people able to fight together and the complexity of the gameplay.

I tried WoW 18 months ago, it was great fun having large-scale inter-faction raids, but all the instanced extra PvE/Battleground content more or less stopped all of that. In time, I do hope to be able to pick up my sword again and charge at 1000+ orcs. Roleplaying is fine and all, but being tiny part of a giant onslaught, the blood and gore flying through the air, wave upon wave of men and beast crashing in upon eachother... now that's MMORPG'ing.

who cares (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895480)

is anyone actually suprised by this? The idea behind the new levels was to make the 10 levels take as to get as the 60 before it.. the levels themseleves are going to create huge gaps in strength every time.. mc and the likes are going to be the equivalent of BRS before long

And Naxxrammas is...? (4, Informative)

Psionicist (561330) | about 8 years ago | (#15895493)

For all you three reading this wondering what this is all about: An instance in WoW is a dungeon cut off from the rest of the WoW-world, sort of like a mums basement for the ubergeek. You and your friends enter an instance, and you can be completely alone in there, killing NPC-monsters (and get nice equipment) and not having to deal with those outside the instance.

The most difficult instances require up to 40 players to complete. Molten Core is a Dungeons & Dragons-like dungeon full of fire-monsters. Blackwing Lair (more difficult than Molten Core) is a place full of dragons. Naxxrammas is full of undead, spiders etc, and is probably the hardest instance atm. Chances are that previous friend of yours you haven't seen for the past 16 months run around in Naxxrammas, killing bosses such "The Four Horsement".

Of course, requireing 40 mans to complete, these instances are usually reserved for the "hardcore". Since WoW's success is because it was casual friendly, it doesn't surprise me Blizzard concentrate on 25 man stuff, that is probably easier for the casual to join in at.

Re:And Naxxrammas is...? (2, Funny)

snuf23 (182335) | about 8 years ago | (#15895698)

Why thank you. I always thought Naxxrammas was prescription medication for severe hemarhoids. Good thing I didn't "ask my doctor"! Guess I'll have to find something else to tame my Molten Core.

The more important question: (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895498)

Why are we sitting around here being fanbois for the latest drivel from a company of jackbooted thugs that used an unconstitutional law to shutdown an open source project?

WoW not for Linux (1)

repruhsent (672799) | about 8 years ago | (#15895523)

WoW isn't for Linux, so why are we discussing it? I thought Slashdot was about Linux and open source.

Don't give me that "but it should run in Wine" bullshit either. It's not supported, and performance is crap compared to running natively in Windows. Anyone who plays WoW on Linux is a hypocrite anyway.

The Dumbass Probablity. (3, Insightful)

Zephiria (941257) | about 8 years ago | (#15895571)

The real problem that MMO's face, like Warcraft and in my case in Guildwars is the dumbass probability.
IE the more people you have in a group the greater the chance that one of them is going to be a dumbass.
Which requires that you somehow vet all the players, otherwise you have to go through a very long process to get decent players.
Allot of complaints people have about MMO's is that sometimes its nice to log in, blast about then log off, not wait about for an hour to get a group and then only to find out that because its a random group you have X number of dumbasses that get you killed 5 minutes or less into it. Or god forbid just at the very end of it.

I think that their needs to be a kind of rating system for players, so other players can rate them based on their experiences with them.. Sure it could be griefed... but I think overall it would be good.

Re:The Dumbass Probablity. (1)

MartijnL (785261) | about 8 years ago | (#15895687)

That's why they invented guilds. Guilds that are good enough for the end game content usually lack dumbasses.

Re:The Dumbass Probablity. (1)

Zephiria (941257) | about 8 years ago | (#15895719)

Yes I know :)
But you still have problems there.. Either not everyone is on.. or theirs not enough for a full party etc.
You still usually end up having to pick up a few people, and the people who only play a few hours a week are either in a very loose guild or not in one at all.

Re:The Dumbass Probablity. (1)

Wildclaw (15718) | about 8 years ago | (#15896054)

In my experience guild members are elite whores that love to wiggle their behinds at those who aren't in the guild, so as to show their "superiority". And even if they don't do that, they will demand that you be online atleast x hours per week at specific hours, and do the same thing over and over. Not really my idea of fun. There are of course exceptions. There are guilds that don't do this, but they won't be able to play the endgame because those interested in the endgame will flock to the elite guilds like sheep.

Blacklisting is a far simpler way to track dumbasses, that doesn't require guilds that usually create more problems than they are worth.

Guilds may on the surface seem like they build communities, but if you are not careful they actually segregate the community. If people group with the same people all the time, they will never meet any new people. That is the opposite of creating a social environment.

Re:The Dumbass Probablity. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895755)

We like this idea and we will be patenting within a few days.

We were looking to move our $699 tea bagging cocksmoker fee into new markets and I think we just found one.

Thanks for the support!

-- Sir Darl Q. McBride, Esq.

Re:The Dumbass Probablity. (2, Interesting)

discord5 (798235) | about 8 years ago | (#15895888)

I think that their needs to be a kind of rating system for players, so other players can rate them based on their experiences with them.. Sure it could be griefed... but I think overall it would be good.

Such a system will be abused. Suppose a really good player (player #1) makes a constructive remark to a less good player (player #2) on improving his skills. Player #2 is agitated, and puts a bad review on him with "steals items" as an explanation. Player #1 notices this and puts up a bad review with "needs to learn to play". You can see where I'm going here, right? Never doubt the immaturity of the audience of a game (or for that fact, people in real life). You can't fathom how upset people can get over virtual "property", until you've had some kid whine for an hour at you for having something he doesn't. Hell, I've even seen someone threaten to kill (yes, in real life) another person over virtual "property". Some people take videogames way too seriously, and a system like this would do more damage for good players than for bad ones.

A guild, corporation or clan easily weeds out bad players. In WoW, high ranking guild members tend to notice when people incessantly nag about items (even though there is a DKP system, or other thing, blah blah), don't pay attention in raids, etc... Most of the time, you'll find out what kind of player you're dealing with before they actually go on a raid.

And for the majority of us with you know, lives.. (0, Flamebait)

Gothmolly (148874) | about 8 years ago | (#15895589)

More importantly, who gives a shit?

Re:And for the majority of us with you know, lives (2, Insightful)

Microlith (54737) | about 8 years ago | (#15895688)

Go remove Games from the categories you want to see.

No need to be an ass, but I guess that's par for the course with this article.

News for Nerds, STUFF THAT MATTERS! (-1, Flamebait)

Borgschulze (842056) | about 8 years ago | (#15895611)

This is /., not the forums. Stick to your slogan please, WoW isn't news, and it doesn't matter.

Re:News for Nerds, STUFF THAT MATTERS! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895628)

News about WoW is news, and just because it doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter to other nerds.

So nya.

Re:News for Nerds, STUFF THAT MATTERS! (1)

Borgschulze (842056) | about 8 years ago | (#15895632)

NASA doesn't matter to me, but in no way is WoW on a level of news, it's more information than news.

Re:News for Nerds, STUFF THAT MATTERS! (1)

snuf23 (182335) | about 8 years ago | (#15895723)

"it's more information than news"

One man's information is another man's news. It is news in the sense that they have released additional new information about the game. For WoW players or those interested in WoW, this is news.

See the definition [] :

2. New information of any kind

Re:News for Nerds, STUFF THAT MATTERS! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895666)

It doesn't appeal to me, therefore it shouldn't be on slashdot!

PLZ HLP K THX (0, Offtopic)

GET THE FACTS! (850779) | about 8 years ago | (#15895616)

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Not the first time... (1)

SpiritGod21 (884402) | about 8 years ago | (#15895680)

UBRS was once a 40-man instance. Then it got put down to 15. Now I believe it is 10. How exactly is WoW changing the amount of people that can enter an instance "news?"

Re:Not the first time... (1)

kwerle (39371) | about 8 years ago | (#15896109)

UBRS was once a 40-man instance.

No, you could run the instance with 40 - but you could not complete quests that way.

Then it got put down to 15. Now I believe it is 10. How exactly is WoW changing the amount of people that can enter an instance "news?"

WoW has about 6.5 million players, last time I heard, making it the most popular MMO ever - by about a factor of 10. Big changes to WoW are news for nerds the same way changes to Star Trek are new for nerds.

What's more, RTFM. They are not changing the number of people that can enter an instance (again), they are declaring that they are changing the style of the new top end instances they are making (and other big changes).

Why this matters (4, Funny)

Lord Aurora (969557) | about 8 years ago | (#15895700)

As long as there are people like this: []

we know that WoW is a very important and integral part of everyday life, worth every second and every screamed WTF!

May make things easier for raid leaders (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895786)

Less people means less room for error, and less chance of people getting away with stupid crap.

How about an interesting expansion instead? (0, Offtopic)

Pinkoir (666130) | about 8 years ago | (#15895793)

For those who are utterly tired of WoW and wish not to hear any more about it try reading this link [] instead. It's about the upcoming "Kali" expansion to CCP's EVE-Online. A game that actually gets better the more you play it. Who could have thought?


Re:How about an interesting expansion instead? (1)

Wildclaw (15718) | about 8 years ago | (#15896062)

THe problem with EVE-Online is that it starts so boring that almost noone stay until it gets better.

WoW is better at the start, and therefore they got the subscribers. Basic psychology. A drug needs to be addictive from the start. Once you are hooked, there is no turning back even if it gets worse.

Re:How about an interesting expansion instead? (1)

Tony Hoyle (11698) | about 8 years ago | (#15896108)

EVE Online was the most boring game I ever played... no grouping, no real interaction with other players at all (might as well have been a solo game), and the 'tasks' are all 'take this box from here to here'.

OTOH I only played it for a month. If they deal with the absolute lack of content maybe it might be worth trying again if as you say the problem is that the first few months are the boring ones.

i am sick of... (5, Insightful)

jimfinity (849860) | about 8 years ago | (#15895794)

people constantly complaining about how this stuff "isn't news" or "doesn't belong on slashdot" just because you aren't interested in playing world of warcraft doesn't mean other people won't find this interesting. I don't care at all about, say...VOIP, but i don't start threads saying "HOW IS THIS NEWS?!?!?!" whenever a VOIP article comes up. i just don't bother reading or posting on those topics. please try to understand that while you don't care about this game, there are more than 6 million people out there who do.

Why... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15895802)

...does this summary read like and endorsement?

Raids take too long (5, Insightful)

EvilMoose (176457) | about 8 years ago | (#15895858)

So you're at 60 and what do you do? Join a raiding guild. The trouble is, most of those guilds raid for 4-7 hours a night and require you to have a 40% raid attendance or be kicked from the guild.

That's on top of your usual requests from the guilds to get NR, Frost or Fire resists up. They need to somehow figure out a way to force guilds to trim the time down.

Let's also not forget that most guilds either run a DKP (Dragon Kill Point system) or Zero-Sum. Which adds to the madness because you're never going to get any loot unless you attend every single run.

4-7 hours a night is too much for one video game. Some of us have other things... 2 hours is cool. Blizzard would be really nice to implement some new scheme for loot, one that is a mixture of raids attended and luck.

Also, ever notice the "females" in guilds tend to get free loot even when they don't even have a microphone. I was halfway tempted to create a female character with no voice communication to get loot, then seduce all of the men in the guild with a fake picture I picked up from Google. But alas, I quit before attempting that.

Improvements in paradigm? (1)

Millenniumman (924859) | about 8 years ago | (#15895894)

WoW needs improvements in how it works. As it is, you get in a guild, and go around killing monsters to get items that let you kill more monsters. The monsters all come back to life, and so do you. How about a MMORPG where there is a significant story that you play a part in? e.g.:

You start out as a soldier/merchant/etc. for some faction (e.g. Alliance or Horde). If you do a good job, you get promoted/become more powerful and maybe get to have some choice in what you do. At the beginning, the people in high positions would have to be bots or admins, but eventually players could get those positions. As your faction, which starts out around equal to all the others, accomplishes its goals, it will become more powerful. Conversely, if it does poorly, it can be eliminated. Factions are not necessarily built in and are created dynamically. You can choose to be neutral.

You wouldn't be restricted to "he is a monster, attack or run?". If you disobey orders or steal, and you get caught, others players/bots/admins will then try to drag you to jail or kill you. You can pick a fight whenever you want to, with whomever you want to, and the consequences will differ. You can work as a spy.

If you go on some sort of mission, and it changes the situations of the different groups, it affects everyone in the game.

Re:Improvements in paradigm? (1)

IKnwThePiecesFt (693955) | about 8 years ago | (#15895955)

That's one of those "great in theory, terrible in practice" ideas. What's to stop a griefer from getting to the highest level first (it's almost always griefers that power level early on). What's to stop lower ranked players from disobeying higher ranked ones? Also, the major reason why an MMO character can never be as significant as a standard RPG character, and I think SWG displays this best when compared to KOTOR. In KOTOR, you are a jedi, along with like 5 other people you'll ever run into. That means that jedis are the shit and powerful enough and rare enough to be respected. In SWG, you would see hundreds and hundreds of Jedi, which all have to be balanced with the non-jedi, making a traditional position of authority for Star Wars disvalued.

Re:Improvements in paradigm? (1)

Millenniumman (924859) | about 8 years ago | (#15896061)

Someone could get to a high position and start betraying people, if he didn't reveal himself beforehand. There wouldn't really be griefers, they'll just be people who are secretly working to thwart others. A bunch of other players will have to team up and kill him. If a lower ranked player disobeys a higher ranked one, the higher ranked one still has authority over others, and allies with such authority, and has them apprehend the disobedient one. All of the people in a group will have to work together to spot spies and traitors and keep order.

There are only so many positions of authority. If a group makes everyone a general, it will be eliminated. They will have to work to structure their groups properly. There could also be a bot system (e.g. mercenaries a group can hire) to fill in roles that real players don't want.

Re:Improvements in paradigm? (1)

jjohnson (62583) | about 8 years ago | (#15896113)

As someone below said, "great in theory, lousy in practice", though the problem isn't griefers. The problem is that persistant storylines and such sound great when you're starting, but offer far less benefit to grinding the story than grinding for yourself. In short, few players really get into advancing the story in their direction. If you force players to adhere to the story arc, you cut your pool of players to nothing; if you don't force players to do so, the ones who don't play the story get pissed off when the game world changes in response to story events, if they're not actively gaming the story for their own benefit. Bartle goes into a lot of detail on this in Designing Virtual Worlds, and how every MMOG starts out with a plan to have a world-spanning story that has great consequences, thus putting the players inside a strong narrative; in every case, they water down the story to meaninglessness just because enough players don't play the story in good faith.

The best example I've seen of your idea is Eve Online, where major corporate wars have significant effects on the availability of space due to corporate allegiance. However, Eve's subscriber base is still pretty minor, comparatively, and this is one the things that tends to cap it.

Work it out (2, Interesting)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | about 8 years ago | (#15896119)

Your rant sounds like a small child fantasizing about how live should be. That is great but don't expect an adult to do anything but pat your head and ignore you.

A new type of MMO with a different core of gameplay then the current PvE grinds and PvP un-balanced balancing act would indeed be nice if for no other reason then the novelty value.

But it requires more then just a vague rant.

The problem with a promotion system is that there can only be one person at the top of an army, yet in this army all the soldiers are paying to be in it. So how are you going to sell peeling potatoes to a person paying 14.99 a month? This is the problem with any ranking system.

But okay, let other players create the missions you take. EVE does this in a way I believe with its bounty system but can you base a game on this? Would you really pay to follow my insane orders?

And how many order givers can there be versus order takers? If you ever been part of a guild you would know that there are plenty of generals but very few soldiers. Nobody wants to be the grunt send to charge that goblin tank and give it hell while the general goes for the loot chest.

Dynamic sounds nice but it is hell in real life. Unless you reset the world every so often how do you give new players starting on the loosing side a fair chance? Would you really want to spawn as say a japanese soldier in your hometown of hiroshima, report for your first mission on august 6, 1945 in World of War 2.0?

You say it yourself, every faction starts out equall, yet this would not last long in a dynamic world. Unless offcourse every player is a faction but then this is closer to one of those empire building games. They exist and have to deal with the problem of how to protect newbie players from the longer super powerfull players.

A lot of this has already been done in FPS games. Why do you think these maps reset after side X controls Y points or has made X kills? To maintain balance. Good now you got all the bases, start all over again.

In MMO land this is even harder. Already the simplest problem is how to deal with population inbalances. SWG, EQ1/2 and WoW all have larger "good" populations then "evil".

Just write your idea down on paper and then try to make it work in simple game logic.

You will quickly see why all the MMO games are so much alike. WoW and EQ2 could be twins, just one became popular and the other didn't.

It is not because nobody wants to do something different but because nobody yet has found a good way of doing it.

(Oh and please do not mention EVE. I played the free trial and fell asleep during the tutorial. God that game is boring)

New WoW server type? (1)

SHaFT7 (612918) | about 8 years ago | (#15895986)

me roommate and I were discussing the other night the need for more REAL pvp in WoW, like back in the good 'ol text mud days. If you guy, your corpse can get looted, and you have to get your stuff all over again, things like that...

our idea was this:

new WoW server type: hardcore pvp
if you die, then the other guy can raid you corpse. Now, honestly, letting them have all your stuff would be crazy, because it takes too freaking long to get it all, so...let them take a percentage of cash, (or not) and importantly, they can pick any one item from your iventory (epics and higher included) and take that as well, or maybe two items.

something along those lines, where it really DOES cost you to die, would appeal a different crown than the current carefree model.

What about Soulbound? (1)

Myria (562655) | about 8 years ago | (#15896090)

If you did that, the Soulbound system would interfere. If you could not loot someone's Soulbound items, your system is meaningless: you'd get a Major Mana Potion at best. Players would put things they care about in the bank.

If you could loot someone's Soulbound items, then you could go to Gurubashi Arena to move Soulbound items between characters, so they wouldn't really be Soulbound anymore.


Think it through (1)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | about 8 years ago | (#15896153)

So the better PvP would get the best gear by looting it from the lesser player and since WoW PvP results are heavily based on gear that losing player has now even less of a chance of winning while the winner will have become even stronger?

That is called Forumle 1 racing and it is getting boring as hell with the organisation trying everything possible to level the playing field again before they loose their audience.

A slashdot example would be say MS vs oh say ah Novell. Because MS is the biggest, it gets the most money so it can spend the most to help it be the biggest. Novell on the other hand can't spend enough, therefore doesn't get as much and therefore can't spend anymore.

In the real world that is just life but this is a game and both players pay an equal fee.

Do you want to pay to be the looser? To get your one rare piece looted by a decked out player?

Perhaps you do, but blizzard caters to the crowd and I think most people do not want this model. Enough for one server? Perhaps but is it worth the extra development and support?

Shadowbane (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15896040)

Besides the client bugs, the other reason Shadowbane failed to have mass appeal is that it's a game that lets people kick each other's asses more profoundly than in games like WOW.

It's possible to lose Shadowbane, in a major way. Not so in WOW. Most gamers can't handle this, and so WOW derives much of its mass appeal by limiting the amount of grief players can inflict on each other, in order to create a "cozier" environment.

Unfortunately this also creates dumbed-down gameplay.

Starcraft (1)

SeanFromIT (990059) | about 8 years ago | (#15896104)

Know your roots...await the day Blizzard makes a new Starcraft...they have one lone hacker in a dark back room working on it, you'll see...

Don't belive them (5, Insightful)

Archimonde (668883) | about 8 years ago | (#15896162)

Blizzard always said that wow is a casual friendly game. I have 130+ days played on my warlock (main) and rogue (alt), and I can without shadow of a doubt say that this game is hardcore gamer only. There are 2 things you can do in the game:

1. level character(s) to 60
2. raid at lvl 60

Leveling is to be honest boring an repetitive. 98% the quests can be summed up in this scheme:
a. Kill X number of mobs Y on location Z.
b. Kill mobs Y until they drop N number of items I.
c. Take item J and take it to place P.

And once you leveled your char to 60, leveling another one will lead you doing the same quests all over again. True, if you reroll on another faction (horde/alliance), you get different quests, but only superficialy, not fundamentaly.

Then when you hit lvl 60 there is only one way to progress: getting better gear.

Better gear can be obtained through raiding 5, 10, 20, 40 man instances. You get best gear in 40 man instances. Comparing gear from 5 man instances, and 40 man instances is like comparing tiger to a cat. Considering equal skill, player with 40 man "raid eq set" will eat another player geared in 5-20 man instances.

Well, there is another way to get good gear and that is by doing pvp. To get comparable gear from pvp to 40 man (purple=epic) gear, you will have to get a pvp team and farm pvp battlegrounds whole days. Problem is you are competing against whole server, and to get first part of the epic/purple set you need at least 2 months of weekly full-time pvp-ing. And that is far from easy and casual.

Well, one would ask: "Why don't you farm 40 man instances then?". This is easier to say than do. Consider:

1. You have to be in end game instance farming guild
2. Be active (4-8 at least hours/day)
3. Have good gear
4. Raid every day, only with toilette breaks, from i.e. 6:45PM, to 1:00AM
5. Compete with other players from your guild that have the same class for points which you get from attendance, because points get you the loot/gear you want.
6. Farm money/materials(herbs, ore etc), so you can raid in the evenings.

And belive me this isn't casual, nor pleasant.

To be honest, in the game I always liked pvp most. But the problem was: Battlegrounds imbalance. Problem is simple:
1. Premade groups>>pickup groups (game is over in 10 minutes or less, if you are in a pickup group, you get nothing, premade gets all: honor, reputation etc. and 3x more faster than you)
2. Premade vs premade (they exit battlegrounds if they meet each other because fights are "too long" and premades need pickups so they can utterly destroy them)
3. Pug vs pug: I was the unlucky one which rolled alliance warlock. On our server horde pug beats alliance pug 9/10 of times.
4. It is not easy to have a good premade group.

One thing to note is this: few patches ago (2 or so), when you were in a pug and faced a premade group (who will eat you in 10 min and you will get next to nothing), you could "go afk", or in other words exit battleground and rejoin some other battle. This was bad for premade farmers so they complained and blizz introduced Deserter debuff. So if you exit battleground you get that debuff and you can't rejoin another one for 15 min. So when faced against a premade as a pug, the most dominant tactic was to do nothing and be killed as many times possible in 5 min. You get nothing, but at least you didn't get debuff. Premades were very happy because they could farm pugs more easily that way. And premades got smarter: when the battleground was open for their group, they would send one player which would scout if another group is premade too. If it is, nobody would join and that scout would exit, and the group would just rejoin another battle. That way, premades didn't fight each other, and the farmed non-deserting pugs. And this is very very unfriendls and uncasual. Blizzard as to this day did *nothing* to help casual pvper against premade groups. More so, they did exactly the opposite.

So I joined good pve guild once I hit 60 because I was one of the few warlocks in the time. During 1 year I got excellent gear and in pvp I destroy and humiliate equally skilled players just because of gear difference. Then after some time I was a bit bored with only warlock and I rerolled rogue on the same server and side. I leveled it to 60 quite fast because I did all the same quests with my warlock 6 months ago. But after pvp-ing a bit with my rogue, few days ago after trying to quit many times I finally managed to uninstall the game. Why?

With warlock as my main I need to farm nature resistant gear so me and my guild can progress through an instance (Ahn'Qiraj), which is really boring and feels like a second job. With rogue, I could pvp but the problem is, horde destroy us. So I have to spend at least 3 times more man hours to get the same result as equivalent of an horde player. And this is not fun, this is downright frustrating.

So to conclude my post, I'll give you an example why wow is gettin ever worse by every content patch to a casual player. I will only note 40 man instances because they are the end game content.

1. Molten core, first 40man instance. Can be done except last boss with relatively casual (fresh lvl 60) gear. Last boss requires fire resistance gear.
2. Blackwing lair. Added as a second 40man instance. Much harder than MC, second boss is gear dependant. (requires gear that drops from MC)
3. Ahn'Qiraj. There was a big, server-wide "event" to open this instance. Every server needed to farm rediculous number of material s to open the gates. (not casual). Bosses are gear dependant, and require nature resistant gear. NR gear can be crafted and materials cost *alot* and farming those materals isnt fun nor casual friendly.
4. Naxxramas. Newest instance. Insanely hard for a non nolifer ("pro") guild. Requires frost resistant gear which is crafted for insane amounts of money and materials. Even less casual friendly. Well, not casual at all. Requires at least blackwing lair gear and preferably AQ gear.

So there you have it, every new 40 man instance they added are *less* casual friendly then the last one. So when blizz says that expansion is going to be casual friendly, everything they did in current wow tells otherwise. So I really can't say I belive them.

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