The 25 Greatest PCs of All Time 207
theodp writes "As the IBM PC turns 25, the editors of PC World present their list of The 25 Greatest PCs of All Time (IBM & others) and the rationale behind their picks. What, no IMSAI 8080?" And my favorite compaq luggable is missing too. Clearly this subjective and arbitrary list is subjective and arbitrary!
Oh No (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Oh No (Score:5, Interesting)
If I wanted random lists of stuff I would visit Listable [listible.com]. On the other hand, I see this as a guide to some of the best computers with the reasons that they are great. I have never considered PC World the last word on technology.
sponsor (Score:5, Interesting)
Case mods wouldn't count, so... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Case mods wouldn't count, so... (Score:2)
We bought our third computer from a local mom-and-pop company that built beige boxes from standard parts, and supported them. It was nice to have a company like that locally, that one could drive over to see the guys personally instead of shipping things off to a central support center to get repairs. I'm sure it provided more employment to geeks around the country
Re:Case mods wouldn't count, so... (Score:2)
Furthermore, you don't get the bundled software crap, and you can chose your own operating system.
Re:Case mods wouldn't count, so... (Score:2)
Why disclude the Frankenbox? I find that being able to do a custom build/os install upstages all other options.
I understand that is not an option for some users, but I try and stretch it as far as I can.
Re:Case mods wouldn't count, so... (Score:2)
Re:Case mods wouldn't count, so... (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's see...
Perhaps because it was one of the first proper and usable laptops?
Because Thinkpads are some of the most dependable laptops you can find?
Because they have always been and always will be quietly stylish (black is always cool) instead of in-your-face?
Because Thinkpads are the laptops most often chosen by companies whose employees depend on their laptops working perfectly all the time?
I have a T42 myself, and the only laptops currently available that I would even consider switching to are:
A) A newer Thinkpad, preferably an X model.
B) A Panasonic Toughbook (One of the "semi-rugged" ones).
or
C) A Macbook (If they finally figure out how much thermal paste to apply and sort out a few other bugs in the process).
It may not be flashy, it may not have all kinds of silly features or ultra powerful graphics or a super high resolution monitor, but it's built tough, every built-in function works perfectly every single time, the bundled Windows software is actually useful, the keyboard is the best laptop keyboard ever made, the Linux support is second to none and the configurability is very nice (4- or 8-cell battery in the main battery bay, DVD-drive can be swapped for another type of drive or an additional battery).
Yes, I am very happy with my Stinkpad. It runs Windows XP and GNU/Linux better than any other brand of laptop I have encountered, and it does what I need perfectly.
Re:Case mods wouldn't count, so... (Score:5, Informative)
The crew of the Space Station has around a dozen A31Ps that are used for both non critical office type tasks (those run XP) and critical command and control functions (those thankfully DO NOT run XP, they run RedHat). There's a few elderly 760XDs and 760EDs onboard that are used for some specialized functions that aren't worth certifying on faster machines as well.
The Russian Segment also has a suite of Thinkpads (which, given the practical nature of Russian engineering to use what "just works" - is probably the biggest compliment).
Re:Case mods wouldn't count, so... (Score:2)
Maybe the phrase in general saves this sentence, but you seem to be forgetting the single most spectacular failure in the history of software development [house.gov] belonged to IBM.
Well, I considered it spectacular, anyway. At least when I've failed to deliver a project on time I wasn't dragged before a House subcommittee!
My only complaint about this choice... (Score:4, Informative)
The 600 series was the first to have official instructions on the IBM website on how to install Linux. (Red Hat, for the curious.) There was always a problem with the quirky sound chip, and it took IBM years to put out a driver (F/OSS, to their credit) for the MWave modem chip. Red Hat actually "certified" the 600 series Thinkpad, in spite of those problems.
The 600 "DNA" was transfered to the T series of Thinkpads, a series still in continued manufacture by Lenovo. Whether the T60 is a worthy member of the line is something the jury's still out on, but the T4x series remain classics.
Yes, the 700C was first. The 701C with its "butterfly keyboard" had more panache, and might have been a better choice for the Thinkpad niche. But the 600 series would have been the best choice of all, because it's the beginning of a continuum of perhaps the "best of the best" of the whole line.
Re:Case mods wouldn't count, so... (Score:2)
I still miss the TrackPoint which is, in my opinion, the most usable pointing device ever invented. And yes, I know many don't share my opinion, but it's also fair to say that many do.
Other than that, I'm a very happy PowerBook user. I'll probably switch to a Macbook Pro sometime this year; I'd like to see the next generation processor come out, and that appears to be imminent.
The PowerBook runs a little hot but I wouldn't make
Re:Case mods wouldn't count, so... (Score:2)
Yes, the homebrew PC market showed consumers that they could in fact afford a computer at home. Without it, people would likley still think that only rich companies could aford computers. They would have this stigma that if the sound broke,
WTH? (Score:3, Interesting)
The Amiga 500!
Re:WTH? (Score:5, Interesting)
The 500, while still a cool box, wasn't a great technological leap forward. It was merely a mass-marketing-wrapped version of the 1000. (And Commodore poorly mass-marketed it!) As the easter egg [eeggs.com] hidden inside one of the later versions of Workbench said: "We made Amiga, they [Commodore] f*cked it up".
If they wanted to glorify Commodore in this list, a better representation might have been the Pet. That was probably the pinnacle of Commodore's technological achievements.
Re:WTH? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:WTH? (Score:4, Informative)
Actually the firmware that has that message stored inside it is pretty rare - as the message was discovered by the public shortly after the launch of the A1000. You'd have to have an early model A1000 as Commodore management recalled most of them. The A500 was in fact designed by the West Chester group probably because of that incident and most certianly wouldn't have contained roms that had that particular message in it.
Re:WTH? (Score:2)
I agree, but they list the Mac Plus instead of the original Mac. It, too was an evolution. And like the Amiga 500 over the 1000 before, it got just enough things right that weren't quite there on the first try. For consistency, I would think the list should contain the A1000 and original Mac.
Wow. Just thinking of my belo
'Personal computers', but not 'PCs' (Score:5, Interesting)
Sinclair ZX Spectrum 48K
Psion Series 5
And yes, I am British. What gave it away?
Re:'Personal computers', but not 'PCs' (Score:2, Funny)
Hear hear for the spectrum (Score:2)
And the one I learnt to program on!
Re:Hear hear for the spectrum (Score:2)
Thanks to exchange rate/wholesale shenanigans the 48K ZX was $399 australian at the time, whereas in the UK it was selling for closer to A$200-$250.
I was in a WA Speccy club for 4-5 years, membership wa
Re:Hear hear for the spectrum (Score:2)
I still have my speccy and tapes, although I seriously doubt many of them would actually load these days.
Re:'Personal computers', but not 'PCs' (Score:2)
The BBC Model B beats it hands down, so does the Commodore 64.
AMSTRAD 1512 (Score:2)
rus
Re:AMSTRAD 1512 (Score:2)
IBM PC not #1? (Score:3, Interesting)
No, cause the original IBM PC was a piece of crap (Score:2)
I have never met anybody who owned one. Everyone I know who had a computer at home had a C64, an Apple, or a Trash 80.
~Philly
Re:No, cause the original IBM PC was a piece of cr (Score:2)
The PGA graphcis "card" was actually a multi-card assembly. It took up two 16-bit PC/AT slots, on
Re:No, cause the original IBM PC was a piece of cr (Score:2)
Of course, I lived in Endicott, NY(1), at the time.
I still had my Apple ][+ which I felt was superior.
(1) For those that don't know, IBM started in Endicott, NY and employed, in the early 80s, somewhere in the neighborhood of 5% of the *total* population (not working population) of the area.
Who modded this? (Score:2)
I don't know where you're coming from, any Amiga I owned in the 80 could smoke any IBM in the same timeframe for about a quarter of the price. The first time I was truly impressed with an x86 PC over an Amiga wasn't until a few years after CBM went belly up.
Only middle/uppermiddle class and above bought a "computer" back then, but it was the IBM-PC (and later, the "100% compatibles")
Re:IBM PC not #1? (Score:5, Insightful)
The IBM-PC and PC/XT just weren't designed to be home machines. In the US, Commodore, Atari and Apple computers were all more affordable than the PC. IBMs were equipped more for business use. Monochrome graphics were standard on the IBMs, and they often had HDDs in the 10-30 MB range, not really needed in home apps then. You could get CGA color for IBMs, but it really wasn't worth it -- the home computer world is more than green, puple, black and white. 16 color C=64s and Ataris were far better for home applications where more colors was more important than higher resolution.
Even an XT clone like a "Leading Edge" was very pricey at $2000 or so in the middle of the decade. A Commodore 64 around the same time could be had for $300, another $300 or so for the floppy. A TV would do for a color monitor if you didn't want to spend another $200 for a dedicated S-Video monitor. If you bought a C=64 or an Atari for home use instead of an IBM PC, you'd have money left over to get a printer and modem and a subscription to compuserve or Q-Link. And your non-IBM comptuers had sound!
IBM tried to crack the home market with the PCJr in the 2nd half of the decade, but this annoyed and insulted home users more than anything. The keyboard, in particular, was a huge failure with the wireless interface and chicklet keys.
I'm not knocking IBM PCs. They were great business (personal) computers, and the clones made possible by the "openness" of the bus design did greatly influence home computing later. They just weren't a good choice for most homes (in the 1980s) where computers might be used to play games, run education software, some word-processing and maybe a little finance, in that order -- sort of upside-down version of what the IBMs were good for.
the PC shouldn't be #1 (Score:2)
The IBM PC was marketed as a business machine and sold mostly to businesses because IBM was the definition of business computing at that time. It wasn't really popular as a home computer until later, so you can't even say it brought the PC to most ho
Re:IBM PC not #1? (Score:2)
At least one classmate back in 85 or 86 owned an IBM at home. Don't recall if it was a PC or XT at the time.
Re:IBM PC not #1? (Score:2)
No Amstrads? (Score:2)
No Commodore 64 or VIC-20? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:No Commodore 64 or VIC-20? (Score:5, Interesting)
No Commodore 8-bits, even though they reached critical mass in the United States. No Sinclairs, even though they reached critical mass in the UK. But a 6-month old Toshiba makes the list because it has an HD-DVD drive that almost nobody can use today?
Yeah, I agree with another poster: This Top 25 list was brought to you by Toshiba.
Re:No Commodore 64 or VIC-20? (Score:2)
One of many "missing" (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:One of many "missing" (Score:2)
Re:One of many "missing" (Score:2)
Re:One of many "missing" (Score:2)
You're also forgetting the other great features of the Next; razor-sharp B&W monitor, and Mathematica. Their software development environment was slicker th
Re:One of many "missing" (Score:2)
I consider the NeXT boxes to have been more Workstation than Personal Computer.
Nobody ever bought a NeXT Cube as their home computer, except for supergeeks, and some regular geeks whose workplaces or schools were offloading surplus equipment.
Workstations aren't disincluded. (Score:2)
Re:One of many "missing" (Score:3, Insightful)
You jest, but remember that Mac OS X is a direct decendant of NeXT. When Apple bought them, several of the key management positions (esp. CEO (Steve Jobs), but also VP of Software Engineering and
Arbitrary? (Score:2)
Subjective and arbitrary on /.? You must be new here.
IMSAI 8080 (Score:2)
Good to see they didn't forget the Commodore Amiga.
I gotta say it (Score:5, Funny)
RTFA (Score:2)
~Philly
Re:I gotta say it (Score:2)
Commodore 64, The Nintendo before the Nintendo (Score:3, Insightful)
It took us a while to find out: LOAD"*",8,1 or sometimes only LOAD"*",8
But once we unlocked all those games, it was a party time that finally broke the era of boring Atari 2600 games. Commodore rocked so hard. Then came Nintendo 8 bit which didn't entirely blow C64 out of the water, but was the 2nd biggest step in gaming, the first being Atari2600 or Colleco(from your vantage point) to C64.
I loved my c64 and would have kept it if someone didn't offer me $300 for it in 1993 when internet PCs were just starting to make it for the public.
Clearly a contentious list (Score:5, Interesting)
A friend who used to work at Lockheed told me how they once developed a communications bus that worked on the 64's parallel port and allowed the computers to be used as a multi-node supercomputer. They used the rig to calculate "safe" trajectories and orientations for a stealth fighter jet when flying through hostile radar zones. They bought the machines at Toys R Us.
Re:Clearly a contentious list (Score:2)
Re:Clearly a contentious list (Score:2)
The C64 had a number of things going for it. For many it WAS a breakthrough in technology for the simple reason that it's affordability meant that they could actually own the technology for the first time. I learned assembly language and Forth on a C64.
The "serial bus" was a collection of digital I/O lines under software control. The floppy drive had it's own CPU and could be reprogrammed. That lead to the fastload cart which converted the slow serial interface into a faster 2 bit connection. In addition,
Atari 800! Yay! (Score:3, Interesting)
I learned everything on that little guy. Kyan Pascal. Deep Blue C. Action! (a C-like language tight enough to write side scrolling shooters in) Atari Basic and later a version of BASIC that would compile to machine code for decent speed (QuickBASIC???). 6502 assembler. Even FORTRAN and Forth.
Christ on a cracker, I feel old. :(
Re:Atari 800! Yay! (Score:2)
Can't say whether you're old or not, but I'm 27 and cut my teeth on the Atari 800. My favorite was the "READY" prompt. It felt so powerful.
Of course, I didn't understand all that hex in the DATA statements. I just typed them in.
Later in life I actually met one of the engineers who worked at Atari. That company had an interesting life!
If the Apple II is so great... (Score:2)
Wait! Something is wrong here.... (Score:2)
Wow. We have 12 of those. (Score:5, Funny)
Ok, now for -my- list, and... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Ok, now for -my- list, and... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Ok, now for -my- list, and... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Ok, now for -my- list, and... (Score:2)
Apple has made a lot of progress since then. You don't need to plug cards in to fry eggs on the back of the case anymore!
the emate (Score:3, Insightful)
This is not to insult the Newton dev team. The Newton was never intended to browse the net anyway, and never had any internal acceleration for text manipulation and rendering. And the environment - whoa. It's the prettiest thing since LMI and Symbolics. NewtonScript is an ease to hack. If you care you can code up c++ snippets and call them from within Newtonscript. So, you can write fast stuff - but you're still limited to NewtonScript to interact with the OS for drawing and datebase access (no filesystem, a relational db for data storage instead). Actually, I bet the relational db is part of why the Newton is so slow too.
The Newton has a lot to teach for UI consistency and streamlined design. It really was a beautiful product. I look at Squeak and think: THAT should be the next Newton. Not Gnome, KDE, or Windows XP Tablet edition (Never mind CE). *sigh*
Want to have fun? Check out Einstein [kallisys.com], a Newton emulator for MacOS X and Linux/ARM: You'll have to use your nefarious hax0r sk11z too find a Newton ROM and then you too can learn 'bout the Newton (and emate) without having to ebay one.
What, no Packard Bell? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:What, no Packard Bell? (Score:2)
Mac IIci (Score:2)
Small, lightweight, stylish, powerful for its time, and easier to get into its case than any computer I've seen before or since.
Wow. No one mentioned the TRS-80 Model 100? (Score:2)
TRS Model 100 (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:TRS Model 100 (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, in fact going to 80x86 was rather disapointing in contrast. The TRS-80 model 100 had hell of alot of battery life, somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 hours or so, on 4 double aa batteries. You could at least get some work done if for example you were on an international flight, and can get away without having extra batteries.
Oblig. Simpsons quote (Score:2)
A Very American List (Score:4, Informative)
In the UK in the late 70's and early 80's a very different computing buzz was going on, so I'd like to mention the claims of two other machines: the BBC Micro and the Sinclair ZX Spectrum.
The Spectrum was the machine (even more than the ZX80 and 81 before it) that switched lots of kids of my generation onto computing. And it's why, to this day, we have some of the best programmers, developers (and games people) in the world. It may not have had the graphics and audio power of the C64, but it took ingenuity to squeeze perfomance out of Uncle Clive's little rubber keyed wonder. A huge kitechen sink games market grew up around the Spectrum and many of us learned to program on it.
The BBC Micro was damn near ubiquitous in British schoools in the 1980's and is probably the one thing about Margaret Thatcher's time in office that she called absolutely correctly: the need to get computers into schools. Sincalir came very close to winning the contract to supply BBC-badged computers to put into our schools (as apart of an initiative to introduce home computing to the masses), but in the end Acorn (later to become ARM) got the nod. For the time, the Beeb was a pretty powerful and expandable machine, with probably the best version of BASIC on the market.
Both of these machines helped to kick start computing in the UK, but never really made it across the pond (though the Speccy was badged as a Timex sinclair and sold in the states). A whole generation of kids used the Beeb at school and came home ot a spectrum (the best seller here). Before the IBM ear, these were the machines that defined home comuting in the UK.
ah TRS-80 Model 100 (Score:2)
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:WTF? (Score:2)
Re:WTF? (Score:2)
Re:WTF? (Score:2)
Re:WTF? (Score:2)
a PC is by definition a Personal Computer. In common usage it's often used erraneously to specifically talk about IBM compatibles, but that's hardly the definition of the term.
Re:WTF? (Score:2)
Re:WTF? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:WTF? (Score:2)
Re:WTF? (Score:2)
S: (n) theory (a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena) "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"
I.D. is not testable, and is thus not a scientific theory. I figured some douchebag would use the "a theory is just an idea" nonsense that the ID-lovers like to sp
Re:WTF? (Score:2)
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Interesting)
I would have modded this -.5 Naieve instead of Troll. Oh well.
In the olden days, what we call PCs were called IBM Clones. Everything else was called PC in some form or another. (As memory serves, it was usually spelled out as 'personal computer'.) Over time, x86 machines took over and marketshares for everything else were in the single digits. The term PC, by de-facto, became 'a Windows machine using an Intel or AMD processor'. I'm not saying the definition was/is super-strict, (Linux boxes have been called PCs, for example...) but when you see mags like PC Gamer, you start building a new impression of what PC commonly refers to.
What parent poster is saying isn't totally false. We've all heard of Mac vs. 'PC' debates. I don't think the current generation is as aware of why the PC distinction took place originally. Back in the olden days, a computer occupied a huge room and only the gov't or big corps had them. Maybe I'm being a little dramatic here, but the reason my definition of PC changed was because I've been reading a lot of Asimov. His stories were rather vague about people having their own computers, but there was always some big major computer (Multivac) that everything was centralized to. It wasn't until.. what.. the 70's until people actually had significant computing power in their homes.
I think we should cut the guy a little slack. It probably would have been a little clearer if the title had said Personal Computers instead of PCs. (Though I'll grant that his post was superficially nitpicky.)
Re:WTF? (Score:3, Interesting)
As the article states, there is plenty of debate over whether the Altair was the first personal computer, but most of that debate isn't arguing whether or not an earlier computer was called a "personal computer" but rather whether or not it took the role of a personal co
Re:WTF? (Score:2, Informative)
I'm not responsible for your definitions. PC is simply an abbreviation for "personal computer" and that's the way IBM used it. IBM did not sell 5150 "PC"s. They sold "IBM PCs."
KFG
Re:iMac? (Score:2)
Re:iMac? (Score:2)
Re:iMac? (Score:2)
Re:iMac? (Score:2)
Re:99er Magazine (Score:3, Interesting)
Another great one that is missing is the Timex/Sinclar 1000 [oldcomputers.net], a $99 machine with 1k of
Re:99er Magazine (Score:2)
Synthetic Speech was always TI's bag, they were and likely still are #1 in this field. If
Re:Error! (Score:2)
Totally wrong, but still a fascinating delusion.
Re:Error! (Score:2)
I guess I have to explain that the IBM PC released in the UK in 1981 was a piece of junk even in comparison to the products then on the market. Machines such as the Sirius and Vector microcomputers, even manufacturers like Northgate, all used MS-DOS 1.x and made much better, cheaper boxes. The IBM PC was hideously expensive and sold only as separate components. You got next to no memory as standard, and there were no hard drive options. Even Commodore 8000's had external hard drives at the time. The
Re:Obligatory disgruntled comment (Score:2)
Disclaimer: This comment is meant to be funny, please take it as such.
Dear sir:
We regret to inform you that this comment was deemed Unfunny.
Sincerely,
The Moderators
Re:Obligatory disgruntled comment (Score:2)
Dear sir:
We regret to inform you that this comment was deemed Unfunny.
Sincerely,
The Moderators
Dear sir:
So was this one.
- Mods
Re:VAXmate? Rainbow? Pro 350? (Score:2)
Re:The XT was not a 16 Bit PC (Score:2)
Another form factor the XT brought us was the drive bay. "Half-height" drives were the same physical dimensions as CD-ROM drives today.