EVE Online Rocked by 700 Billon ISK Scam 154
Martin Spamer writes "The space MMOG EVE Online, where mining rock plays a big part of the economy, has recently been hit by a huge in-game scam. The aftermath of the EIB scam... was 700 Billion ISK, which might raise some $119,000 USD if sold on Ebay. (The current conversion rate is 100M ISK to 18 USD.) These events have prompted claims of player deaths, death threats, and speculation about What Would You Do With 700 Billion ISK?"
Er... (Score:3, Insightful)
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http://padbot.net/eve/the-big-scam.html [padbot.net]
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The worst part was, he was happy trading for a while, and those that wanted to PK gimped the ability to get away, so he out-pirated the pirates.
Re:Er... (Score:5, Informative)
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I've managed to identify a few people like that from my acquaintances through the years. Every once in a while I get the willies wondering if there have been other sociopaths that I didn't spot.
Regards,
Ross
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The sad part is that one day he'll be president.
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I was drunk, a'ight? Anyway, I usually just go by "155360".
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"
500 - Internal Error
The server was unable to process your request.
Support personel has been notified, no further action is needed."
And from the second link in TFA:
"This thread does not exist."
Apparently they have more problems than a scam, I can smell server smoke from here!
I don't know if it's related to the taking over of accounts of other MMORPG's or not.
My buddy's son had his WoW account hijacked last week, totally wiping out all of his character's inventory- he found his
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Eve is a trust game where there are no police should you default.
Pyramid Scheme (Score:5, Informative)
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But hey, there's a lot of suckers in the world that just wanna 'get rich quick'.
Re:Pyramid Scheme (Score:4, Insightful)
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but at the end of the day.. you're putting something at risk.
Exactly. And for FDIC insured banks in the USA, the associated risk of a bank account has been reduced to less than the risk of keeping your money under the matress at home.
Unfortunately, EVE Online has no real governing body to secure banks. "But what about CCP? Couldn't they secure it?", You say? The game has really brought out the worst in some people. If there were real banks, "secured" by them, I have no doubt that it would just rem
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Thats one thing that makes municiple bonds attractive to some. Especialy if they are from a different country.
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T-bills, bonds, OTOH, are bound by contract and laws to be repayed. They work in the way you described but if ever comes a day when we don't sell enough to
The guy who ran the scam's video can be found here (Score:2, Funny)
Personally I think this is what makes the game EVE more facinating than others.
I hope the guys running it don't step in, but rather I hope the players can in-game construct an appropriate response to the guy.
It'll be very interesting to see if this springs up new insurance companies in EVE to protect against it -- or perhaps a new type of organization to certify banks -- or, etc. In EVE the p
Re:The guy who ran the scam's video can be found h (Score:2)
I think that's the biggest problem with this kind of scam -- at least IRL, you can't just leave (well, not without a fair amount of effort, anyway).
big $, small thrill (Score:1, Informative)
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However, cases such as these where online property can be worth substantial amounts of money will probably end up in the books getting rewritten at some point in the not too distant future.
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1. There's no guarantee that the dude's going to sell it on eBay. Assuming he doesn't attempt to ditch it through TOS-violating activities such as selling it for real life money, he's not doing anything wrong. See:
2. EVE isn't every other MMOG. There's no handholding, and short of scamming on activities that involve real life money (character transfers, game timecard purchases) or violate game mechanics, caveat emptor is the rule. That said, it's not as horrible as some make it out to be - day to
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In EVE, it's not illegal to steal someone's ISK. The fact that the ISK can be sold for real-world money is irrelevant.
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CCP does NOT condone selling ISK on eBay, and if they saw an auction go up and a large amount of ISK change hands, they could well step in and make sure both parties go home crying.
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In a real world where everyone sues everyone for every imagined injustice, where games are full of people whining about others robbing them and complaining to the GM, it's a relief to play a game where the response to a whine is 'you learned your lesson, don't be so stupid in the future.'
Meh (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Meh (Score:4, Insightful)
If you're playing the game, you're playing a fantasy. Eventually one of the stronger players will find you at just the right moment and wipe you out. Everyone who isn't the strongest is just bait. At some point the hundreds of hours you've invested in the game are going to be flushed away by one guy who just loves being an asshole, and there's nothing you can do about it.
On the other hand, that would create a good in-game limitation against getting too addicted. Nothing breaks the addiction like being dumped back on square 1. Heck, even if you are the strongest with the biggest guild, there's always the chance that a bunch of other guilds will band together and take you down, or they'll send in spies to destroy you from the inside. A wild west atmosphere means occasionally getting shot and dying.
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In Eve, pla
"Reasonable amount of time" and MMORPG don't mix. (Score:2)
It's an MMO game. The point is that taking a 'reasonable amount of time' is contrary to the design philosoph
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Having said that, there's lot of safe space to play in for a long time that never requires brutal PvP action, and you're under no obligation to invest in scams like EIB. Carebears, as they're called, get along just as well as pirates.
Obvious (Score:2, Funny)
Trade it for a frist post, of course.
Re:Obvious (Score:4, Funny)
(sorry)
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Apparently.... (Score:5, Insightful)
All I have to say is kudos for getting this story on slashdot since I don't even believe we can call it news. Let's try to at least explain the random stuff we are putting together, or at least keep the topics on stuff a little more mainstream then Eve if we don't want to spend the time actually putting an explination of the facts together.
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I'm not sure about how you'd define 'legit' in this case. There are no in game functions available to allow for player run banks. Basically, you can whip up a web site, just ask people to transfer you ISK, and sha-zam. You're a bank. People got fooled because they wanted to get fooled. I've never touched any of the so-called Eve "Banks", and I don't intend to util the formal contract system goes in (if then).
As all of the "banking" organization t
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Can you transfer money from other people into your own posession? Can you transfer it back out to other people? Guess what... That's all the functions you need to run a bank.
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They even talk about this sort of thing in the glossies
Spies, cheats, scams it make the game just that little bit more interesting
Anyone can set up a corporation or alliance.
A while back during one war, a spy infiltrated our Corp.
He flew with us for over 6 months, He became a close and trusted friend to many of us
before cleaning out the Corporation lockers.
Ahh well such is life
Betrayal, Intrigue, injustice, Loyalty, Nobility
These are things that the game mechanic pretty muc
The Scam (Score:4, Informative)
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According to the guy who perpetrated the scheme (he's come clean, so why would he lie), EIB started out legitimate. It's perfectly believable, there are plenty of ways that a shrewd investor can make money in EVE. The best ways ingame to make lots of money are very capital-intensive.
In the end, Dentara Rast (the main character of EIB's founder Cally) decided that rather than running an investment bank, they just wanted to
I love it (Score:5, Interesting)
There are three main features of Eve that create this situation.
1. Easy-to-use player run capitalist system. (It's easy for anyone to start up and manage a business)
2. Zero laws against corporate fraud (As pure as capitalism gets)
3. Anonymity from victims. (It's a lot easier to rationalize ripping off people in a virtual world.)
Combined together these factors have lead to some amazing corporate frauds and espionage.
I don't have time/effort myself to invest in Eve, but it's still fun to read what determined Eve players go to lengths to achieve.
(A thought occured to me while typing this. Someone should offer some sort of contract in Eve. Either it can be done through CCP with GMs backing it and they could even charge for it, or a sufficiently large and militarized corporation could sell contract enforcement. Maybe this has already been done, otherwise feel free to steal this idea and try to make some isk with it.)
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Idiots and every day people lose money and life goes on.
Re:I love it (Score:5, Insightful)
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--Nick
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All law ultimately boils down to military or police force. Just see what happens if you start out with a minor infraction, say driving 10 mph over the limit, and then ignore or resist the progressively more forceful efforts by the government to make you comply. As for the mafia? Internally, it is not anarchy. It couldn't thrive without a code of conduct that amounts to "law." At the same time,
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Some laws help the market to function more efficiently. People are more likely to take out contracts when there is a device in place to enforce them. Some laws make the market less efficient. In the end, though, laws only affect markets; they do not define them.
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[[ N.B. the world could work a whole lot better once we get away from this notion ]]
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Please cite how this is capitalism? Feel free to peruse Hayach or A. Smith for evidence.
Or was this just something you learned at Slashdot University?
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The GP did not equate lack of laws with capitalism, but rather stated that lack of laws (state enforced restrictions?) gave one a purer capitalism. At least thats how I read it.
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The guy is essentially equating 'lawlessness' with capitalism. Lack of laws do not give anyone a purer capitalism - it is the type of laws.
The system you see in Eve does have some free market qualities but has more in common with anarchy and it's natural outgrowth - fiefdom - than with capitalism.
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I always snicker a little when people think that all inventions where brought about by monetary motivation. The number of altruistic inventors is to long to list, but names like Carver, Turing, Torvalds, Cierva, Hadley, Lun, Einstein, Tesla, Archimedes and Pythagor
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Ponzi... (Score:4, Informative)
Get investors to your "bank" and pay them a high rate of return on their investments.
Use your "success" to get bigger investors. Use their capital to pay out your early investors.
Get more even bigger investors. Use their capital to pay out most of your investors.
As soon as you think you can't widen the parymid, close up shop and keep all of the investors money.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme [wikipedia.org]
Wow, people still play this game? (Score:1, Insightful)
Boring as hell. Space is an empty wasteland and so is this game.
Perpetrator confessed to it (Score:5, Interesting)
More interesting, he's set a bounty on himself of 1.2 bil and gone out looking for fights. (You collect the bounty if you blow up his ship, then catch his pod and blow that up too. A little tricky, but not impossible.) With 700bil in the bank, he can afford pimpin' ships and the best gear, and not worry about when he loses them. He's already been found and podded once (by some members of the Mercenary Coalition, if anyone's curious), not sure if he's going to keep bountying himself. Given his attitude, I suspect he will, since he's looking for a fight and pvp experience.
Re:Perpetrator confessed to it (Score:5, Interesting)
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Provide the setting, the worlds, the tools, and the toys to the players, and let the content manifest itself. In essence, the players make the plot.
You're right in your statements, this kind of thing is the perfect justification of that concept.
For tons of EVE-related ongo
Re:Perpetrator confessed to it (Score:4, Insightful)
Full details from the scammer himself (Score:5, Informative)
But it's basically 'yay i win eve'.
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What a small small world. I get this video thanks of the link you post in this comment and a few hours later you revive me in Urban Dead.
So thanks for the revive!
-Papa Schultz
PS : Thanks to your revive I'm now holding alone a NT building right in the middle of the Big Bash at [93,40].
Lesson learned? (Score:2, Informative)
But then again most of tech stocks before the bubble burst were essencially Pyramid schemes. The only way to make money off of them was to sell before the bubble burst and leave someone else holding the bag.
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I'd love to see anyone try to see someone try to do this in WoW.
Blizzard bans accounts for trading gold while running an in-game poker mod.
Blizzard accounts for transferring large quantities of goods from one character to another with no gold transfer.
Then again, Blizzard will ban your account if you log into anyone else's account, regardless of whether that person gave you permission or not.
They will also ban you for
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obOfficeSpace (Score:5, Funny)
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2 cents,
QueenB
Re:obOfficeSpace (Score:4, Funny)
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Not on YouTube (Score:3, Funny)
Should EVE send him an 1099-B? (Score:2, Funny)
This could be construed as "income from a barter exchange" by the IRS. EvE should send him a 1099-B form at the end of the year, showing that as income. In the words of the IRS:
The Internet has provided a medium for new growth in the bartering exchange industry. This growth prompts the following reminder: Barter exchanges are required to file Form 1099-B for all transactions unless certain exceptions are met. Refer to Barter Exchanges for additional information on this subject. IRS tax topic "Barterin [irs.gov]
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This appears to be legit game play... (Score:2)
This was basicly an in-game version of a pyramid scheme or ponzi scheme. You can read about pyramid schemes here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme [wikipedia.org]
Hardly "Rocked" & The Joke Is On The Scammer (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, imagine the work it takes for one person to run a scheme of this size, dealing constantly with investments, withdrawals, and dividends. Sure, it racks up a lot of cash, but the perpetrator probably had to "play" 23/7 for six months to pull it off, constantly dealing with minutiae. So, yes, well done in terms of a scam, but it takes a hell of a lot of work. Is 700 billion units of virtual cash worth it? Maybe, when you consider how much it could be transferred into real currency if he bought time cards with ISK and sold them.
However, here another economic curiosity comes into play - the number of people selling time cards is a limited number (you cannot buy time cards from CCP with ISK, someone has to pay CCP real money and then put them up for sale in ISK). Cashing out would spike the sell price of time cards in *ISK* through the roof. He would have to deal both the minutiae of buying and with selling hundreds if not thousands of time cards, which would also drive the cost of time cards down *in real currency*.
Basically, when you figure it all out and divide the final take in real currency by time spent to do the scam and then transfer it all, I doubt the hourly pay is impressive. So, sorry folks, no get rich quick scheme here.
Re:Hardly "Rocked" & The Joke Is On The Scamme (Score:2)
Is the game robust enough for players to create such laws and enforcement/oversight groups?
Re:Hardly "Rocked" & The Joke Is On The Scamme (Score:2)
That would get rid of the person maybe (they could always create a new-anonymous character and get him/her the money),
Re:Hardly "Rocked" & The Joke Is On The Scamme (Score:2)
What's interesting is whether or not those involved in the scam would have just as easily perpetrated it face-to-face with players, whether if something of this nature happened in real life, it could have gone as far, and what that says about people and their virtual lives. Do you trust more in your fake
ISK is not so low (Score:2)
Dentara Rast (Score:2)
The more i hear about this game... (Score:2)
The more i hear about this game the less i want to play it.
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EVE Online has an incredible economy that would be very good training for real world brokerage. Therefore it doesn't surprise me that the same scams as occur in real life could occur in EVE. I
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Re:What was the scam? (Score:5, Informative)
Phase 1: Cally opens up EIB and does an IPO on it. Many people get excited, lots of people invest, lots more people begin to store saving there.
Phase 2: Cally builds reputation and Bank starts to seem like one of the cornerstones of Eve's burgeoning investment market. To this day it's not clear how much of that was legitimate and how much was pyramid goodness.
Phase 3: A character named Currin Trading runs a scam and makes off with 30 billion ISK (the largest scam ever at the time)
Phase 4: Word gets out that Currin Trading was a scam, Currin Trading posts a very long explanation of the whole scam and ends it with another shocking revelation: EIB is also a scam! He recognizes all the signs because it's so much like his own scam.
Phase 5: Forum drama.
Phase 6: Insane forum drama.
Phase 7: Cally's faked a) hospitalization, b) incarceration c) death in very short sequence.
Phase 8: EIB is revelaed to be a scam, Dentara Rast is revelaed to be Cally's main (players can have up to three character per account) much gloating occurs. He puts a billion ISK bounty on his own head and goes out to fly PVP with the most expensive ships and equipment he can find (in Eve, if your ship blows up you lose it entirely).
Phase 9: Slashdot!
It should be noted that scams are an accepted part of the Eve game mechanics. Eve is ruthelessly PvP in combat and in the marketplace. It seems as though this was an entirely legitimate (in an EULA sense of the word) scam and that Dentara Rast will get off free and clear.
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BPO is a monopoly on an in-game item. (Well, there's 12-20 BluePrint Originals for each rare item). You normally win them in the in-game lottery, and it's the gift that keeps on giving. For WoW players, it'd be like purples not dropping and only being available from 1 player crafter per shard.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Informative)
Not quite. To clarify to others: BPO means "Blueprint Original". To produce any item in EVE, you need a blueprint and raw materials. Originals may be used for production, may be researched to reduce material costs and production time to a certain degree (the limit being the maximum reprocessing value of that item. i.e. if a maxed out refiner reprocesses an item that was produced with no material wastage due to good research and producer skills, no materials are lost.) Last, BPOs can be copied.
Note that copies cannot be researched, cannot be copied again, and are limited to a certain number of production runs before they go poof. At one point copies could be used for unlimited production, and this killed the economy for at least a year and a half. While CCP made all new copies limited-run within a matter of a few months, the unlims were left ingame for at least another year before they were all converted to maximum-run-count copies.
In the game, there are currently three main classes of items:
Tech 1 - The baseline. The Tech 1 (referred to usually as T1) variant of any item is typically the worst variant (except for some items which have "Civilian or Basic" variants) T1 BPOs are one of the few things that can be bought off of the NPC market. There is an effectively infinite supply, so any player with enough money to invest in a T1 BPO can start producing it. For a while there was almost no money to be made in T1 unless you were first on the market (see the above comment about unlimited copies, from here on referred to as BPCs) Now that all BPCs are limited-run, there is now money to be made from T1 items, although not huge amounts.
Named items - All better than T1 variants, with increased effectiveness and reduced fitting requirements. They are NPC drops only, and no BPOs exist. Occasionally BPCs for these may be given out in various manners.
Tech 2 (T2) - T2 items have improved effectiveness at the cost of increased fitting requirements. (The exception being ships - they are just plain Better, and also are designed for specialization.) Some named items are better than T2 variants, although this is rare. T2 items can only be produced from BPOs that are essentially given out in a lottery, where lottery "tickets" are purchased by running missions for special NPCs in the game to gain what are called research points. There are only approximately 20 BPOs for any given T2 item in existence in the game. Additional BPOs are only given out if a BPO owner gets banned or CCP finds that they have gone inactive or have left the game. (i.e. the BPO isn't being used.) Due to the limited supply, T2 BPOs mean massive profits even though the material costs can be quite high. The thread linked to is talking about potentially buying out all (or most) BPOs of a given item, establishing a full monopoly on that item. You may see references in the thread to HACs - That stands for Heavy Assault Cruiser, and that particular type of ship is increasing in popularity but supply is not changing, so HACs are climbing steadily in price (and profit for the BPO owners).
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Also, ISK is pretty easy to come by, there are probably hundreds of in-game corps that move billions of