Redmond Yawning at Apple-Google Alliance? 214
Debra D'Agostino writes "Despite the media hype around Google CEO Eric Schmidt's appointment to Apple's board, CIO Insight Executive Editor Dan Briody says it's not that big a story. 'Apple and Google are already plenty tight,' he says. Arthur Levinson, CEO of Genentech, has been on both boards for years. And Al Gore and Intuit Chairman Bill Campbell are both Apple board members and advisors to Google. 'While it's fun to speculate about what an Apple-Google alliance could produce (GoogleMacs? MacGoogle? GoogleTunes?) this move is far from an alliance,' Briody writes. 'And even if it were, it wouldn't be first time that two upstart powerhouses have joined forces in an attempt to unseat Microsoft. Remember AOL-Netscape? Boy, they just steamrolled the team from Redmond, didn't they?'"
this article is tiresome (Score:5, Funny)
What adult writes like this?
Blogs are the new Op-Ed page, only with no journalistic standards.
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To be fair, the portion of the article that you quoted is infact objectively true, and not editorial at all. If I were as upset with the current state of blogs as you obviously are, I would have quoted the following gems from this article:
The truth is, Apple and Google are already plenty tight. (perhaps true but badly phrased)
or
Well, duh. That's the business model in Redmond. (badly written and possibly misleading; several reputable companies have headquarters in Redmo [wikipedia.org]
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I would say Donald Rumsfeld, but he would have used the term "Microsoft-Hating Nazis" or perhaps "Macintosh Fascists" instead.
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I was about to say "any journalist", but then I wondered if, by "adult", you intended some connotation that would exclude them.
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>> These are exciting times for Microsoft Haters. Google is growing in strength, serving up online ads by the bucket, even making headway in the corporate software market.
> What adult writes like this?
Substitiute "democracy" for "Microsoft haters," and it sounds a bit like pretty much anyone in the Bush administration, actually.
so... (Score:5, Funny)
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Oh wait, maybe he meant "Uppity".
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Apple Computer is NOT an upstart. Hell, Apple started the home personal computer. Though, some may argue that issue.
Google is an upstart company. They are relatively new and have large sums of cash. Apple has alot of cash on hand but they have been around awhile.
Question from a Mac user (Score:5, Insightful)
Not to mention... well... ALL the rest of Google's software.
I'm not blaming Google specifically, mind you.... Apple should hurry up and fix those Javascript bugs in Safari already so that stuff like Writely will finally work.
Board connections != product collaboration (Score:5, Informative)
If Apple and Google are so tight, where the hell is that Mac-compatible Google Talk voice chat client we were promised a year ago?
Likewise, how come Intuit has waffled back and forth over Mac support during Campbell's tenure on Apple's board? How come the presence of Ellison on Apple's board never resulted in any staggering Oracle+Apple ventures?
Boards of directors are supposed provide outside perspective and serve as a safeguard for shareholders. Whether they actually do this in the era of the massively overpaid chief executive is debatable, but it seems obvious that membership on a board doesn't lead to actual strategic connections between the two companies.
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If Apple and Google are so tight, where the hell is that Mac-compatible Google Talk voice chat client we were promised a year ago?
Apple and Google could work together more closely, but what is their major strength is that both work with open standards quite a bit (although not quite enough to satisfy me). For example, OS X ships with ichat that supports Jabber and several open standard voice and video protocols. OS X server ships with a Jabber server. Google uses Jabber for their talk protocol. I use iCh
Re:Question from a Mac user (Score:5, Informative)
They don't actually use KHTML. Instead, they use a codebase called WebKit [webkit.org], a forked derivitive of KHTML.
Apple doesn't use much new code from KTHML anymore, but does contribute some back, although merging it into the KHTML tree is hard, because of the way the WebKit team makes patches. See the Wikipedia article on KHTML for more info. [wikipedia.org]
If you want stuff fixed in Safari, report bugs to the WebKit team [webkit.org].
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WebKit is a fork of KHTML. Safari passed ACID2 well before "modern KHTML"-based browsers did because it is now a rather different beast - so different that many of the patches passed back to the original KHTML team are practically unusable. Making KHTML better at this point is nice, but unlikely to directly affect Safari.
Besides, sh
I'd say it's in the middling stage right now (Score:2)
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Possible, but I don't think that particular chair-thrower takes Eric Schmidt very seriously. Remember, in that very same chair-throwing conversation, he called Eric Schmidt "a pussy."
-1 Troll (Score:3, Insightful)
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It's not Wikipedia, idiot. Crawl back into your mother's basement.
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MS Threat (Score:5, Insightful)
The key to "beating" Microsoft is the OS. Something that's easy to use, runs on cheap/common hardware, and compatible with current software.
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The age of the OS is almost over. Remember in the mid-90s, what you did when you wanted a computerized map of some place you'd never been? You went to the store, bought a CD-ROM, put it in your computer, ran the installer, and checked the map. The CD had to be for the right OS (meaning Windows most of the time) or the whole thing wouldn't work.
How do we check maps now? We go to googlemaps.com. It doesn't matter what OS you use for this.
The internet is making whole classe
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No matter how much you like Redhat or Mandrake or any other flavor of Linux, they're not as supportable as Microsoft or Apple. Remember what it was like before plug and play? Most people couldn't handle installing hardware like speakers and scanners
Re:MS Threat (Score:5, Interesting)
History does not agree with your premise. If ease of use was so important, Apple would be dominating the industry. MacOS had far superior "plug and play" support well before it came to any environment Windows ran on ("Microsoft" and "Apple" are not OSes). And even with the state that WinXP is in today, there is still a very large market for supporting end user desktops. It would seem that Windows (and even OSX) falls short of your ideal. Don't get me wrong - Linux (since you brought it up) as a desktop platform does have various short-comings. But I don't find "supportability" as much an issue as you make it out.
Apple lost in the early years because IBM lost. When IBM lost control of its "personal computer" architecture and it became a commodity platform, it set the stage for Microsoft's success and the demise for Apple who managed to "win" and keep control of its own platform. Tough break for Apple. They failed to bootstrap their own version of a commodity platform years later. And I'm not so sure any attempt today to support the x86 platform today would be successful (not that it wouldn't be interesting to see it attempted).
You're assuming that Microsoft has to be unseated at the OS level. I disagree. What has to be done is to remove the OS as the lynch-pin to any given strategy. Web apps would be one piece to that - although I'm not convinced that alone will do it.
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Just the clarify the point... you began your post with:
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Apple's lead on the market had nothing
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Windows won the OS war because it was cheaper because it could be installed on pretty much any manufacturer's desktop PC. IMHO Apple made the superior product (and I think it still does, but YMMV). But Wintel was "good enough" and cheaper. Apple is never going to compete at the bargain basement cheap box level, but then again the people who buy those sorts of computers are unlikely to care about the OS as long as it works and it is "good enough".
Window
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Are the companies that are making noise about pre-installing Linux doing just so that they can get a better discount from MS? What if they're serious? There's a real advantage to OEMs to never have to pay for software again. At the top of the
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For one, applications on the desktop are much more mature than their AJAX and Java counterparts - Writely.com and Google Spreadsheets, for instance, don't even pretend to replace Microsoft Word and Excel at this moment. This will of course ch
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That's not to guarantee that Apple will ever shift from tying its OS to its hardware. Just saying this to keep the other option of licensing their OS open.
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Seriously.
Do you think it theoretically can't be done? That's pretty much ridiculous. Sending images back and forth over the web isn't that hard, the only tricky parts are the bandwidth and CPU power required. Well, if YouTube can stay alive while burning barrels of cash to send videos to client for free, then AjaxAdobe2.0 can stay alive charging customers about the same price per year as Photoshop to send images back and forth to clients. Googling "buy photoshop" the first ad says, "Buy Photoshop -
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Dell's Back-To-School special was a $279 XP Home system. Word Perfect. Monitor. One-Year Warranty. You can't get much cheaper than that.
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The key to beating Microsoft (Score:4, Interesting)
If Apple was serious about unseating Windows then they would copy Microsoft's strategies. Microsoft can see threats coming. The Playstation was a trojan horse into the living room. MS pumped a lot of money into putting a machine into people's living rooms that would stop them from needing to buy a Playstation. This is a long term strategy.
What Apple should do is buy Sun and put those hardware engineers to work on making the worlds best game console. That console should be a server with thin clients around the house, it should serve up great games and movies to the tv, and also let you wirelessly connect a Monitor and keyboard thin client and use Googles internet office suite for working on all your work like needs. TV and music on demand would be served up through Apples iTunes store. With this strategy Apple/Google/Sun could take over the entire household computing needs. And you know it would be cool because it comes from Apple.
Of course in the meantime I'm going to end up buying Vista, Office 2007, a Nintendo Wii and think about an Xbox 360.
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I never said I would buy Windows for Office. I actually do all my word processing on a Mac. Its split between Pages and Word, but I don't know a lot of people using Pages. I do have windows installed for gaming and software development. I a
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A typical home user trying to use linux would pay money. They will buy a distro at the local store which often charges for their update service and technical support as part of the price. Most of them are not tech savvy enough to pick another distro with free packages or compile software.
I don't mind buying OS upgrades from apple because I tend to like at least
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Sun's engineering expertise centered around providing software and hardware for large organizations. I don't think they can take that expertise and apply it well to consumer electronics. Save for Java, nothing they have done has come anywhere near consumer conciousness or use, and even then, Java is pretty well hidden.
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A game console is a platform, the Engineers wouldn't be creating the content. I think that taking the Engineers from Sun and giving them a problem formulated by Steve Jo
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Empires climb and fall. Fortunes come and go. In this life the only constant is change.
The vast majority of businesses don't long survive the end of their founders' direct participation, and I expect Microsoft is no different. Shortly after Bill Gates loses interest Steve Ballmer will have a stroke trying to sell proprietary software to Venezuela and it will all be over. A series of absurd follies, operational errors and legal decisions will drive the company to receivership. It will be a
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What makes you think Sun engineers are qualified to do a game console or that they'd hang around to do it? Sun is successful today on the strength of their servers. Game machines couldn't be more different. Not that you game console idea is credible anyway.
yeah right (Score:2)
Imagine having an Atari 2600 / 8 Track / Beta video / 9600 baud modem machine integrated into your house...
Or even if its not part of your house, you still bought all this crap and invested in it... you're going to want to hold on to it for as long as possible, probably to the point it just
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Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
MacGoogle (Score:5, Funny)
You make the computer yourself, or the bad guys get away.
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If only I had seen this comment before my moderator points disappeared...
Somewhere in Cupertino... (Score:2)
Crush Microsoft? (Score:4, Insightful)
Namely, their hardward platform. Let OS X/Tiger/Cheetah/whatever run on the same commodity hardware Windows has for ages and watch uses start to drift. Of course there's give and theirs take, Apple will have lost the ability to micromanage the hardware like they always have (mostly for the better I think) but then there are a lot of people like me who have invested heavily in PC hardware (built from commodity/specialized PC parts) who wouldn't dream of scrapping the whole system to change the operating system.
Then there's the question that *really* puzzles me. I always heard the story of how Apple makes most of its revenue off its hardware sales, and that sounded reasonable enough, then (for testing, my company does web-app development) we get an Apple and find out even point releases are sold seperately as upgrades. Is it just me or does that make it look like Micrsoft is really doing *me* a favor, namely by continuing to update and support their software platform until its end of life?
Thats a legitimate question by the way. I'm not an Apple basher (I'd pay $120 or whatever the going price is to see if I liked it on PC hardware), I do use Windows (XP Pro, on Workstations) and I manage more Linux servers (RHELu3) then any and all of that combined.
But in business Micrsoft is kind and not just because its the right OS (although that it and always has been Microsofts target market). Take any mid-sized business, inventory their hardware and tell me how much its going to cost to replace each system? Because you can't just do one, one there, thats where the compatibility issues come in. Say we've got 100 workstation no at EOL, nobody is going to sign off on a purchase order to replace all those functioning systems unless they have a lot of extra cash and a serious bias. Because in business sense it just doesn't add up. Then remember those EOL systems, you know, the ones the interns use, file stores, backup systems, whatever. Companies invest a lot of capitol into a solution like that and you're absolutely right, its going to be hard to topple.
I'm still not sure what Apples strategy is with the move to Intel, but so far it seem clear that moving into Micrsofts territory is not on the map. Things could change, I'd like that, or Redmond could be the 10,000 lb gorilla they aren't willing to challenge.
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Apple charge for milestone releases (eg. 10.3 to 10.4) whereas the point releases are really 10.4.1 to 10.4.7. It's their naming strategy that makes it look like a smaller release, probably because they want to stick with Mac OS X for a bit longer before going to 11, but updating from 10.2 to 10.4 is a pretty massive upgrade even though it just looks like "2 point releases".
Re:Crush Microsoft? (Score:4, Insightful)
1) What is the primary problem with Windows stability? One word: drivers. There is no way that a company, even one with as many resources as MS, can support every possible config out there. Windows would be a hell of alot more stable if people didn't run it on so many crappy rigs. Unfortunately, they do, and MS gets the bad press for it. True, they contribute to the problem, but you'd have no idea how many times I've seen a BSOD induced by bad RAM or a shitty driver. You probably can guess how many people blame that on MS instead of their decision to buy third-rate hardware. If Apple released OS X for generic PC's, then this would undoubtedly be a problem. I do not doubt for a second, that many people here could build machines with hardware combos that work well with OS X. I also know that most average users won't build their own system, let alone pick components that will work perfectly with OS X.
2) Developers. Balmer wasn't lying when he made his "developers, developers" speech. They really are what makes a successful OS... well... successful. If OS X is released for generic x86 boxes, think about it from a developer's standpoint. Suddenly, developers have two PC markets to target. Those with Windows, and those with OS X. Now, as much fun as it imagine that the majority of users will dump Windows (and all their applications, etc.) and flock to run OS X and OS X only, it is very much a dream. Instead, many people will dual-boot OS X and Windows. Now, switch back to developer perspective for a minute... You know that most OS X PC users have Windows anyways, therefore, does it make sense to make a special OS X PC version of your software? No. Instead, you drop _all_ OS X support, and tell the users to simply boot into Windows when they want to use your software. Suddenly, as most dev. houses follow this trend, we see the majority of application support for OS X just shrivel up and die. Not good. For a practical example of this, witness OS/2's integration with Windows 3.1 and the effect it had on developers.
3) Hardware. Apple is a hardware company. Repeat that: Apple is a hardware company. They happen to know how to make great software, and, as a result have gained recognition for it's ease of use. However, despite their software-making abilities, hardware makes up over 80% of their revenues. What's in that other 20%? iTunes Music Store sales, boxed copies of OS X, etc. In short, without hardware (and I mean actual computers and iPods), Apple can't survive. Period. As optimistic as it is to assume that OS X PC could take on MS well enough to replace hardware as a revenue stream, it is just not going to happen. Also, if anyone could buy and install OS X on a commodity PC, why would they buy the shiny boxes for 10-20% more?
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I would suggest reading up on OS X on the developer site. Read up on Core Audio, Core Data, Core Image, Core Video and the new Core Animation framework. Before the .NET framework was 1.0, Apple had "frameworks" galore for developers to develop against.
Your post perfectly illustrates how Mac people [often] can't imagine the perspective of others. I am a dyed-in-the-wool Mac user, posting this from one of my two Internet-facing Mac OS X servers.
What you don't get is that Apple may one day to decide to m
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Let me help solve your little puzzle here. It is all about marketing. Apple's OS were numbered before 7...8...9 etc.
OS X (OS 10) was so very radical (because it is really Next's Unix OS) that they changed numbering conv
nothing to see here (Score:5, Insightful)
It's just that the media and a lot of lame bloggers make a big hype out of this. Everybody else just yawns along with Redmond.
Apple and Google? (Score:2)
"two upstart powerhouses" (Score:2)
WTF ?
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upstart powerhouses? (Score:3, Informative)
Let us look at the definitions of upstart from Princeton Wordnet:
1. an arrogant or presumptuous person (Sounds more like Microsoft then Google, I cannot attest for Apple.)
2. a person who has suddenly risen to a higher economic status but has not gained social acceptance of others in that class (Apple is almost as old as Microsoft and unless my mind fails me, they had a graphical OS first. Google might be closer, but look at Google's core tech. They are considered the top, ahead of Microsoft, and have gained social acceptance.)
That handles the nouns. Now since they used it as an adjective:
1. characteristic of someone who has risen economically or socially but lacks the social skills appropriate for this new position.
Seriously, a horrible use of the word. If anyone lacks the social skills appropriate for their position it is Microsoft. We all know their tactics are less than admirable, and there are plenty of jokes about their social skills with regards to chairs. I just wish people would stop acting like Microsoft is some untouchable entity. I can only hope that I get to see the day they have a great fall.
Crap title, perhaps crap article too... (Score:2)
The Point (Score:2)
Just illustrates... (Score:2)
Now let me adjust my tinfoil hat.
We've Got That Too! (Score:2)
Microsoft Quotes (Score:3, Funny)
- Bill Gates, 1995
"Microsoft has had clear competitors in the past. It's a good thing we have museums to document that."
- Bill Gates, 2001
"I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operation system, and possible program, of all time."
- Bill Gates, 1987
"There are people who don't like capitalism, and people who don't like PCs. But there's no one who likes the PC who doesn't like Microsoft."
- Bill Gates
Percpetion != reality (Score:5, Interesting)
I think a lot of people bought and listened to MS because they were the biggest and seemed to be leading the way, so you bought their stuff and did things their way because that was the easiest... Now with two giants providing a different path, MS will start to look far weaker and people will feel that they are now entitled to make non-MS decisions.
Re:Percpetion != reality (Score:5, Interesting)
If anyone really thinks that Google and Apple were not well known a few years ago they really need to have thier heads examined. Granted that Google search took a while for it to catch on but at lesat by 2002 it was well known enough. And Apple... don't even get me started.
But on more relavent note, M$ knows what's going on between these two at least as well as the general public, if not better. And I assure you they are not yawning at what's happening, but what precisely do you expect them to do? Go cry to their Mommies and Daddies? Microsoft is doing the only thing that any good company can do when faced with someone better than you catching up with your tails and trying to knock you down. Looking for what to do next. Not trying to hide from what's coming. They are also going one step farther and trying to learn what they can from these two companies. Weather or not they are succesful is something that can be debated amongst your selves.
On a more hopeful note, if Google and Apple ever made any sort of actual loose partnership, it's be the coolest company ever.
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I love this (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Slashdot lies. (Score:4, Interesting)
Seriously, I've known Apple fanboys to be zealous to the point of failed logic, but I've never known a mac user to be outright stupid (lookin' at you, AOL).
Meanwhile, Google is ubiquitous and powerful, with a number of good web-apps that are challenging to MS's model. And the pair of them are at the (to date) height of their power with very little overlaping in the finger-to-pie categories.
If there's a plan, I hope it's a good one.
Re:Slashdot lies. (Score:5, Funny)
As a mac user myself, who reads and posts on many mac-centric websites....
You obviously haven't looked very hard. I've seen apple fanbois who would brag about the opportunity to bend over and have steve jobs fuck them in the ass with a baseball bat with the letters "DRM" spelled out in razor blades.
Re:Slashdot lies. (Score:5, Funny)
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Still, that's zealotism to the point of failed logic. Have you seen them do the kinda shit AOLers are famous for*?
* Script-kiddieism; excessive and post-useful typing in l33t; LOL@URMOM!!!!; the bad habit of ruining their computers with ad/spyware in the space of minutes**; being the worst forum trolls in the universe; and finally, installing AOL
** I swear, AOL'ers and post-AOL'ers are primarily responsible for windows users' reps as typhoid users
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This just isn't the same as Windows fans, who *generally* either buy the cheapest (Dell) machine or need it for work. So don't say there are many / more Mac idiots, just more outspoken and obvious ones... partly -becau
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actually, such silly behavior is no different from the linux and bsd zealotry that is just as prevalent on places like slashdot. But for whatever reason it's somehow cooler to be a linux zealot than a mac fanboi.
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Well... "cooler" in the tiny world that is Slashdot, perhaps; but as far as the rest of humanity is concerned, there aren't many things that are less cool than a Linux zealot. (Or should that be a GNU/Linux zealot?)
Re:Slashdot lies. (Score:4, Insightful)
You're kidding right? Do you really think most of the world can tell what particular sub-genus of nerd you fit into?
Clue for you - we're all just computer guys to most people.
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AOL Never Wins (rightly so) (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyone that partners with AOL goes down the tubes. If AOL were a
An "iGapple" company would at least be the guy who always gets "first post", and sums up the entire following reaction in 1 line. The number of their +5 moderations would eventually get so boring, that the only thing newswort
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AOL: We abuse our users! They don't know any better! We put in place some false protections that are actually worse than the problems they cause themselves (quite a feat, if we say ourselves)!
Netscape: Ok, we'll offer our browser for free! ??? Profit! (this model works better when its open source. Instead of paying lots of developers and bandwidth, you pay for a couple of lead developers and bandwidth)
Apple: We sell the best price point for high-end hardware and personal mp3 pl
Re:Slashdot lies. (Score:5, Interesting)
Where do you guys come from with all this venom and FUD? God, complete with a $. Your type really seem to think so much alike that I'd swear every one of you are the same person. It's so ironic, it's sad.
Anyway, getting to the point: Maybe I agree or disagree but you should provide some reasoning along with a statement.
Let me try: I don't think there is an alliance, and even Google and Apple together are not going to just "crush" Microsoft. MS' sheer size, marketshare along with its diverse involments in many more markets that Google nd Apple combined coupled with its admittedly dubious business practices are going to ensure they'll be around a *long* time.
Microsoft's Two Big Weaknesses (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft has at least two achilles heels: Windows and Office. This is so since these are the only two money makers for Microsoft, the rest of their 'diverse involments' lose money hand over fist. If Microsoft were to be harmed in either of these two markets then it would be a severe blow.
I'd guess that the first of these weaknesses that will be exploited is in the Office market since it is easier to switch to another suite, i.e. OpenOffice, then it is to switch operating systems. Switching over to other non-Microsoft products paves the way towards helping people rid themselves of Windows as well.
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You mean like the fact that, currenty, virtually Google's entire revenue is based upon their pay-per-click business model?
Microsoft Games must be doing pretty well. And XBox 360, like the XBox, will come back to eventually bring those business units into the black.
"losing money hand over
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It's funny that with so many Office/Windows wannabes this keeps happening *not*.
Most Linux/Apple fans assume Windows users feel desperately trapped into Windows/Office and wanna switch the moment th
Widows Vista... pending..... (Score:4, Funny)
Pending? Its more like: pending, pending, hype, pending, shedding features.... pending, more hype, pending, shedding some more features...... but we know it's coming.... right???? pending, pending, even more hype, pending, shedding even more features.... any moment now!!!! pending, pending........
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You know, TBH, I disagree. Looking at the number of 40 - 65 years old people in my workplace who have been using the same word processor (or at least, the same company) since DOS, people who know -all- the keystrokes, -all- the menus, -all- the edge functionality that you never even knew anybody needed, let alone
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MAYBE it could now. but for many years there was a constant debate in redmond whether or not to even keep msn alive. i know this for a fact because i was peripherally affected by that decision.
plus, microsoft threw a shit-ton of money at msn search; around $100M if i recall correctly. so to say that msn could "stand on its own" isn't exactly accurate because their search technology would never stand a chance to catch google if they didn't have the rest of the
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Venom and FUD....... (Score:2)
sarcasm [sahr-kaz-uhm]
-noun
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms.
[Origin: 1570-80
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You mean like Apple's start-up beep?
"...yet any sort of alliance between a competitor and the world's most popular search engine isn't news?"
It's not an alliance.
"With attitudes like that, I just want M$ to go the way of the Dell laptop a bit more."
You mean like Apple laptops?
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Note: Quickbooks On-Line has to be run in IE.
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