×

Announcing: Slashdot Deals - Explore geek apps, games, gadgets and more. (what is this?)

Thank you!

We are sorry to see you leave - Beta is different and we value the time you took to try it out. Before you decide to go, please take a look at some value-adds for Beta and learn more about it. Thank you for reading Slashdot, and for making the site better!

The US's Reverse Brain Drain

kdawson posted more than 5 years ago | from the laugha-while-you-cana-monkey-boy dept.

Businesses 757

We may have to rethink the assumption that Silicon Valley is the hotbed of innovation in which all the world's best and brightest want to work and live. TechCrunch has a piece by an invited expert on the reverse brain drain already evident and growing in the US as Indian, Chinese, and European students and workers in the US plan to return home, or already have. From an extensive interview with Chinese and Indian workers who had already left: "We learned that these workers returned in their prime: the average age of the Indian returnees was 30 and the Chinese was 33. They were really well educated: 51% of the Chinese held masters degrees and 41% had PhDs. Among Indians, 66% held a masters and 12% had PhDs. These degrees were mostly in management, technology, and science. ... What propelled them to return home? Some 84% of the Chinese and 69% of the Indians cited professional opportunities. And while they make less money in absolute terms at home, most said their salaries brought a 'better quality of life' than what they had in the US. ... A return ticket home also put their career on steroids. About 10% of the Indians polled had held senior management jobs in the US. That number rose to 44% after they returned home. Among the Chinese, the number rose from 9% in the US to 36% in China."

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Sounds good to me (4, Insightful)

Jeff321 (695543) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782083)

More jobs for the rest of us.

Re:Sounds good to me (4, Insightful)

Lemmy Caution (8378) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782129)

More jobs for the rest of us.

Most of the people I have met who have expressed that sentiment lacked the qualifications to fill a job vacancy left by someone with a PhD in a science or engineering field.

Re:Sounds good to me (4, Interesting)

Bruha (412869) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782231)

It's also in some cases after we paid for their educations through government grants, many of which place no requirements on them remaining in the US.

Case in point, my ex attends college here free, working on her PHD. In fact she said that there's so much free money he plans on getting a second masters as well.

It'd be nice when the US Government would invest in it's own citizens.

Re:Sounds good to me (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782309)

It'd be nice when the US Government would invest in it's own citizens.

We do. In fact we spend so much that we don't have enough tax revenue to pay for it all. Eventually we will either have to cut investments in our own citizens, or raise taxes. There are some cuts I wouldn't mind making, but some of the others will be painful.

Re:Sounds good to me (4, Insightful)

Devout_IPUite (1284636) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782371)

I say cut our military spending until it's twice what China's is. That will save us around half a trillion per year.

Re:Sounds good to me (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782259)

"More jobs for the rest of us" my ass.... those jobs no longer exist in many cases.

When I saw the title, I assumed it was about American-born American-educated expertise IMMIGRATING OUT OF the USA. Because guess what? -- that's what is happening. Many native-born who *can* leave (the ones with desirable skills and expertise) are leaving or seriously considering leaving the USA to find work.

Re:Sounds good to me (5, Insightful)

coaxial (28297) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782143)

More jobs for the rest of us.

Yeah, because attracting the best and the brightest from around the world, and having them build the future from here has been such losing proposition from the very beginning of this country.

This is disturbing phenomena. It's not just the the economy marking what would previously be immigrants return home. It's that it is incredibly fucking difficult to get a job if you're not an American. The visa process is notoriously burdensome, and then ties the immigrant to a specific company, essentially indenturing them. Then that doesn't even start the green card and citizenship processes. Canada is super easy. So easy to the point that when you talk to immigrants about immigration, they'll tell you that their friends told them "Why are you going to America? Just go to Canada, it's so much easier, and it's the same!"

Why should we be aid our competition in the international economy, by training and giving all our best ideas to foreign countries, when we used to "steal" their best and have them work for us? The fact that we're no longer a magnet, illustrates just how screwed we are.

Re:Sounds good to me (1)

NewbieProgrammerMan (558327) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782149)

More jobs for the rest of us.

Only if your job can't be outsourced. You think American business management is gonna give you the job just because the better qualified guy moved back home, and can work for even less there than he did here?

Disclaimer: I don't have anything against outsourcing, and certainly not against these folks that are moving back home to take advantage of better opportunities (more power to them). I'm just pointing out a fact about the current US business environment.

Re:Sounds good to me (1)

dreadlord76 (562584) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782195)

Guess what these folks do back in their home country. They go back, use their expertise, and build competitors tot he US companies. Think Toyota vs GM. And you, like the modern day GM worker, will be looking under the rocks for those "More Jobs"

This is news? (-1, Offtopic)

Devout_IPUite (1284636) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782085)

Like, seriously?

Re:This is news? (1)

interkin3tic (1469267) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782229)

It's news that it's for some reason being called "reverse" brain drain.

I guess slashdot editors have already had too much reverse brain drain...

Surprised? (4, Interesting)

Tubal-Cain (1289912) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782087)

Why is this a surprise? Isn't that exactly why they came here in the first place?

Re:Surprised? (5, Interesting)

coaxial (28297) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782109)

Why is this a surprise? Isn't that exactly why they came here in the first place?

In the past most of them stayed. "America is the land of opportunity," you know? Only now it increasingly isn't. The fact that Chinese are returning home for "a better quality of life" really sticks a fork in that claptrap about how financial freedom brings political freedom doesn't it?

Re:Surprised? (0)

Blue Shifted (1078715) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782145)

In the past most of them stayed. "America is the land of opportunity," you know? Only now it increasingly isn't. The fact that Chinese are returning home for "a better quality of life" really sticks a fork in that claptrap about how financial freedom brings political freedom doesn't it?

sorry, i can figure out what connection you mean by that, but i don't see how that discredits the theory that if you don't have economic freedom, you don't have freedom at all.

Re:Surprised? (5, Interesting)

coaxial (28297) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782219)

sorry, i can figure out what connection you mean by that, but i don't see how that discredits the theory that if you don't have economic freedom, you don't have freedom at all.

Economic freedom not only isn't predicated on, it doesn't necessitate, political freedom.

Let me indulge in a bit of history. Back in the 80s and early 90s when Wall Street was lobbying to remove embargos on investing in China, the argument was that the US was actually opening up a giant market, not promoting trade with the regime that just slaughtered a pro-democracy movement, and by opening trade, the Chinese would see how the West lived, and then would force the dictatorial regime to fall. Then it was about how by deindustrializing and moving all production to China, they would get money in their pockets, start to make economic decisions on their own, and soon would stop wanting to only "vote with their wallets" but want to "vote with their ballots" instead. But that's not what happened, now is it? The standard of living along the coast has rapidly improved, but far from weakening the regime, it's actually strengthened it, because the average person (rightly) says, "We've got a good thing going. My life is better. My child's life will be better than mine. Why would I want to take a chance and mess that up?"

Ironically though, China is the perfect lab for what would happen in an unregulated market that libertarians argue for when they want to eliminate the EPA, FDA, and every other regulatory industry [nytimes.com] .

Re:Surprised? (5, Interesting)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782167)

really sticks a fork in that claptrap about how financial freedom brings political freedom doesn't it?

Not really. The number of Chinese living in poverty is still greater than the entire population of the United States. Even the few Chinese who do manage to graduate from college still have trouble finding a good job. Getting a degree at a US university merely puts them at the front of that line. And of course, there are a few in China who are filthy rich. That is everywhere.

And of course, 'better quality of life' is relative.....most parts of China, even in the cities, don't have drinkable water coming into the house. That would be unacceptable to many westerners, but if you don't mind, then it's not a problem.

Re:Surprised? (2, Informative)

micheas (231635) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782291)

...most parts of China, even in the cities, don't have drinkable water coming into the house.

http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news/Drinking-water-in-America-not-all-that-safe-3A-says-report-10757-1/ [bio-medicine.org]

While no more than a third of US households have unsafe drinking water.

Re:Surprised? (4, Interesting)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782361)

OK, you linked to a report by the Sierra Club, a group that has a definite agenda. You need to be careful when doing that.

In this case, they are trying to be sensationalistic by redefining the word 'unsafe' to mean 'potentially unsafe.' They aren't saying that the water is unsafe to drink, they are saying that the water could become unsafe to drink, if there were an oil spill or a chemical spill in the source of the drinking water. Whether true or not, this is not at all the same as the drinking water in China, where you should boil the water before drinking it to avoid sickness.

Try to make sure a study is reliable before citing it.

Re:Surprised? (2, Interesting)

ls671 (1122017) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782189)

Yes I know...

Unfortunately, that perception is fading, especially in the minds of people outside US. I do not think the former US president helped much in fixing this problem.

A considerable portion of US economy is now owned by foreign countries and some countries should start to deal oil, gold and other goods in euros soon when American dollars were previously the reference used world wide.

As wikipedia states ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream [wikipedia.org] ) the American Dream seems to be a fading concept:

"In recent years, the concept of the American Dream as a national ideal has been studied by various organizations. The conclusions of these studies indicate that during the 1990s to the 2000s, a period of remarkable wealth for the U.S., an increasing number of people confess to having lost faith in the American Dream."

Re:Surprised? (4, Insightful)

Idiomatick (976696) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782363)

You are confusing quality of life with inequality. In china and india there is truly a land of inequality. With their fancy degrees education and experience when you stick them in a place that has people starving in the streets they are veritable gods.

Economy is such that people are able to survive but big shot CEOs while in the US might be able to afford a nicer car and a bigger house. In China they can afford a nicer garage filled with cars and a mansion with butlers and maids. While this sounds like quite the opportunity... When you look at the average it truly isn't.

I'd think again before I got jealous of a country where most of the populace doesn't have running water. Even if you knew you would be among the privileged would you really wish that on your people?

H1Bs? (2, Interesting)

PrimaryConsult (1546585) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782089)

Would this be caused by expiring H1-B Visas as discussed previously [slashdot.org] ?

What a surprise! (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782091)

Here's a shocker: we educate foreign students at the cost of displacing domestic students, and then watch as they leave the US and put our industries out of business. Meanwhile, we're left in the cold because domestic students were passed in favor of these foreign students. Who would have thought?

Of course, the people running the graduate programs are from these countries...

Re:What a surprise! (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782151)

Don't worry! Millions of dollars from the stimulus bill are being used to send americans to cosmetology school, where they can learn important skills to advance our nations's cornrows and dreadlocks.

Re:What a surprise! (2, Informative)

Kizeh (71312) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782239)

Actually, foreign students pay around triple, depending on school, the tuition of citizens and residents. In many institutions they in fact bring in the funds to subsidize the Americans that share their classes. Less foreign students means higher tuition for Americans.

Re:What a surprise! (4, Interesting)

Dahamma (304068) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782275)

That's kind of misleading...

They pay non-resident tuition at public state schools, just like any US student who attends a college in a state they don't reside in. And for most private schools, there is no difference at all.

Sure, they don't get the federal grants, but those are so piss poor these days that probably barely matters (plus they may very well get grants or loans from their home country to attend a US school).

Re:What a surprise! (1, Funny)

Renraku (518261) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782303)

I think it's awesome that our universities have a lot of foreign students. I don't think it's awesome that my tax dollars are paying for them to go there, so they can go back to their home countries and live the high lives while we foot the bill. Cut the number of foreign scholarships and grants in half, and increase the number of domestic grants and scholarships.

It's a great time to do it since there's so many people sitting around jobless.

Re:What a surprise! (4, Interesting)

Idiomatick (976696) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782381)

Your tax dollars aren't. Look at how much more you pay if you are a foreign student in your school. And look up how much of your school is funded by your tax dollars. There is a good chance that foreign students are actually FUNDING your education.

Re:What a surprise! (-1, Flamebait)

coaxial (28297) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782305)

Here's a shocker: we educate foreign students at the cost of displacing domestic students, and then watch as they leave the US and put our industries out of business. Meanwhile, we're left in the cold because domestic students were passed in favor of these foreign students. Who would have thought?

Here's a shocker! Some anonymous coward xenophobe doesn't know what he's talking about! We educate foreign students that out compete domestic students for the spot, yet still have the vast majority of the spots reserved for not only domestic, but in the case of public universities, in-state students. Oh yeah, and until now these students stayed because hell, they already lived here 6 years, want a job, and possibly got married, contribute to the growth of the American economy. Meanwhile the domestic students, that aren't as qualified for graduate studies don't get jobs requiring graduate degrees, bitch about the damn foreigners that are actually qualified for the job! Oh yeah, our brilliant All-American White Anglo Saxon Protestant Harvard MBAs scheme up plan to outsource the job that our immigrant that just got hired and put a downpayment on a house, back to the immigrants home country.

Of course, the people running the graduate programs are from these countries...

Are Americans. Yeah fuck Americans, especially when those damn graduate deans aren't admitting people that don't apply.

Re:What a surprise! (5, Informative)

cetialphav (246516) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782347)

we educate foreign students at the cost of displacing domestic students

I would like to see some evidence to back that claim because that does not match my experience. In my CS department, US citizens are almost automatically accepted into the graduate program, while foreign students have to compete with each other to get in. (My professor is on the admissions committee.) The reason is that there are so few US citizens that apply that they have to take as many as they can get. The only people being turned away are foreigners who got beat out by more qualified foreigners.

The fact is that the US has half of the world's colleges and universities. It is the large number of foreign students that allows us to have so many universities and that gives domestic students a wide range of choices.

Re:What a surprise! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782377)

Here's a shocker: we educate foreign students at the cost of displacing domestic students, and then watch as they leave the US and put our industries out of business. Meanwhile, we're left in the cold because domestic students were passed in favor of these foreign students. Who would have thought?

Of course, the people running the graduate programs are from these countries...

Well, foreign students are not educated at the cost of domestic students ... It's just that the foreign students pay more, are mostly the brightest from their countries. America was and is being made by immigrants .. The sooner we realise that, the better it'll be for everyone.

Re:What a surprise! (1)

Draek (916851) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782383)

That highlights a problem with the domestic students, rather than the institutions themselves.

Good, leave, bye bye (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782093)

Until the US federal government stops regulating the US labor market with work visas we will not have a reason to fix our education system.

Also wages will not rise and unemployment will stay high. We need to protect our markets too. We are the only nation that fails to protect its domestic markets. And we are the only nation that imports highly skilled labor the way we do.

Before H-1B wages rose. Jobs used to be great in programming and IT. But since we started H-1b about 12 years ago things have slid and only gotten worse and worse.
The solution is to let the US labor market regulate itself the way its supposed to.

Re:Good, leave, bye bye (1)

Skreems (598317) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782175)

But since we started H-1b about 12 years ago things have slid and only gotten worse and worse.

How do you figure? I work at a great tech company who pays 6 figures for most programming positions, and we still can't find nearly enough qualified people to hire.

Re:Good, leave, bye bye (1)

GeorgeS (11440) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782223)

That's because most Americans can barely afford their homes let alone send a kid to a college to get the qualifications needed for the 6 figure jobs.

Re:Good, leave, bye bye (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782355)

There is no infrastructure in the US to *create* those qualified applicants anymore. Corporations used to budget "training" for example and build their own experts. The average graduate may have a $100K slave shackle loan starting out and no one wants to hire someone just out of college.

Most of the science and engineering majors I know are seriously considering careers outside of the US because that's where a lot of interesting stuff is happening these days.

The US is in a spiral -- it is really unclear whether the political will can decouple itself from the unsustainable game being played by robber barons, excuse me, corporatists.

Maybe because we treat them like criminals (5, Interesting)

HangingChad (677530) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782113)

the reverse brain drain already evident and growing in the US as Indian, Chinese, and European students and workers in the US plan to return home, or already have.

Between Homeland Security and treating H1-B's like slave labor, who can blame them? They can go home and enjoy a better lifestyle than they have here and not get treated like a potential terrorist.

Funny is how many of the teabirthers walking around thinking this is the best place in the world to live and everyone wants to come here.

Not anymore.

Re:Maybe because we treat them like criminals (1, Interesting)

Buzz_Light (1017486) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782199)

Having lived nearly 1/4 of my life outside the US, I can tell you that in my experience, you are completely wrong. Most people I have met and talked with, would still jump at the chance to live in the US. And yes, that is including Europe.

Sure there was a time there where it was cool to be anti-US, but that seems to be passing.

Re:Maybe because we treat them like criminals (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782279)

Obama, fuck yeah? Because he's not Bush. No wait, that was Kerry's campaign slogan.

But for the last 3-5 years, yeah...the world really hated us. Not for the last 8 years since for the start and some/most of his first term Bush administration wasn't seen as some form of monster.

Re:Maybe because we treat them like criminals (1)

carlmenezes (204187) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782317)

Having lived nearly a quarter of my life in the US, I can tell you that I jumped at the chance to get away from it. Wouldn't go back there to live. Holiday, sure - its a beautiful place to holiday in with great people. Live there? Nope. The US media, pre-university education system, health care system, government policies and lobby groups will have to change big time before I even consider that.

Re:Maybe because we treat them like criminals (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782331)

Having lived nearly all my life in Europe, I can tell you that in my experience, you are completely wrong. People who
have roots in some other country do not see the US as anything more than another country.

Not wanting to live in the US has nothing to do with being anti-US. Same goes for living in any foreign country.

Re:Maybe because we treat them like criminals (4, Informative)

wizardforce (1005805) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782267)

Funny how many people forget just how much the government has to do with the hostile treatment that immigrants face upon entering the US. Considering how much red tape and utter nonsense is baked into the system it isn't any surprise that a lot of educated people want the hell out of here.

Re:Maybe because we treat them like criminals (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782307)

you're a fucking moron. wtmkf. PLONK!

No wonder... (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782115)

Have you ever tried applying for a green card in America? You get stuck in a queue and have to wait years before you might finally get permission to stay here. It's no way to plan a secure future for yourself. It's also worse for migrants from certain countries. I have Indian friends who have basically been told that the process may take so long that they'd be better finding other means to change their status (e.g. marriage).

The US makes it quite difficult for talented people who follows the law to stay in the country. It does not surprise me in the least that Indians are returning home.

During and immediately after WWII... (4, Insightful)

Starker_Kull (896770) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782117)

...the U.S. had the greatest rise in its living standards. Scientists, engineers, and other professionals from all over the world migrated here in seach of a better life, the opportunity to live pretty much in peace and quiet, or simply to survive. It was seen as the most desireable place to live in the world, and that seemed to become a self-fulfilling prophecy as 'the best and the brightest' came here to do their best.

I wonder, are more folks returning to their home countries' simply because of money and career advancement? Or do they feel less welcome in the culture? Or perhaps their own home cultures are changing to where they feel they can shape them for the better?

This seems more like an anecdote than a study; but there is something wrong when science and engineering and other technical fields are seen as undesirable by most Americans, and the immigrants who come here to learn them decide that they'll have better opportunites back home to use them.

Re:During and immediately after WWII... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782141)

What the heck are you talking about?

A console game system did all that?

It wasn't even invented here! It's from Japan, you doofus. See:

http://wii.com/ [wii.com]

Re:During and immediately after WWII... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782247)

I really hope you were being sarcastic and not confusing a quadruple V for a double V.

Re:During and immediately after WWII... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782245)

Why is this insightful? I dont find this guys' comments to be of any value other than some speculative, questioning, ignorance and as proof of such he prefaces his blather with WWII!! WTF is that? Does that even have relevance now? I say NO! And he even goes on to say that Americans have some problem with science and engineering..."undesirable" as he puts it...

The problem is: our American culture

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT BLAME OUR GOVERNMENT AND MEDIA!
BLAME BROKEN HOMES AND CORPORATIONS!!

the fact of the matter is: the us is a fucked up place to live but a great place to get a degree...get over it. i personally am gonna get outta the military ( after i get back from iraq ) and finish my EE and get the fuck outta the us and ill prolly never return. so go fuck yerself with yer dumbass hypothesis.

Re:During and immediately after WWII... (1)

TheBilgeRat (1629569) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782345)

Get your EE? Is that the new code for GED?

Re:During and immediately after WWII... (1)

wizardforce (1005805) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782285)

It seems to me that the US is on the road to getting left behind by other major powers in the world and that it could very well be that a lot of the educated people leaving see this as well. China in particular is effectively producing as much if not more than the US is and is growing rapidly. Europe is just about the same way.

moore's law is "reversing" too (0, Offtopic)

Blue Shifted (1078715) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782119)

don't tell Kurzweil, but all of tech is slowing down.... especially the most glorified moore's law (i know, i know, it's not a law, and it's about circuit density, etc)

i've been monitoring different computer performance benchmarks over the years, and back in the days up to the P4, double times were about thirty months. now they are up to three years, or more.

the heartrate of the dream is what is slowing down....

Re:moore's law is "reversing" too (1)

vistapwns (1103935) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782161)

Nonsense, transistors in chips like intels x86 and nvidia's and AMD's gpus are doubling around every 18 months, you see this recently in the 2 billion transistor 5800 gpus from AMD which are twice the 1 billion in the 4800s released June 25, 2008, about 15 months earlier (better than moore's law.) Brain scanning, price and speed of gene sequencing and so on are also on track. Instead of just attacking things from intuition, maybe you could do some of your own research so other people don't have to do it for you.

Re:moore's law is "reversing" too (3, Informative)

Paktu (1103861) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782271)

i've been monitoring different computer performance benchmarks over the years, and back in the days up to the P4, double times were about thirty months. now they are up to three years, or more. the heartrate of the dream is what is slowing down....

That's a pretty bold claim you're making. Let's have a look at some actual numbers, shall we? [wikimedia.org]

This chart indicates that not only are we keeping up with Moore's law, for the past 2-3 years we've actually moved ahead of where we'd expect to be. And the graph doesn't even include AMD's R800 graphics chips, which have even higher transistor densities than RV770/GT200.

Re:moore's law is "reversing" too (1)

wizardforce (1005805) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782293)

There's only so much that you can do with Silicon chips, eventually you start running into barriers created by the engineering and physics of electronics.

Re:moore's law is "reversing" too (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782357)

There's only so much that you can do with Vaccuum tubes, eventually you start running into barriers created by the engineering and physics of electronics.

Moral of the story (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782125)

Here in Quebec, Canada, universities charge a certain rate for Quebec residents, a higher one for students from other provinces and an even higher one for students from outside of Canada (France is an exception). The price ratio is about 1:2 for Quebec:out-of-province and about 1:5 for Quebec:non-Canadian. As a result, we have more "local" graduates who aren't tempted to return to their country after receiving a good education. This doesn't mean that the graduating population is predominantly white, male and heterosexual - it just means that we lose less graduates to their countries of origin.

The moral of the story: education is still too cheap for foreigners in the United States. If you want more US citizens to obtain degrees in these fields, charge much more to people from other countries - this will decrease demand from foreigners and open spots to US citizens.

Re:Moral of the story (2, Interesting)

reilwin (1303589) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782263)

The moral of the story: education is still too cheap for foreigners in the United States. If you want more US citizens to obtain degrees in these fields, charge much more to people from other countries - this will decrease demand from foreigners and open spots to US citizens.

Eh?

Using McGill University and Harvard for comparison:

McGill foreign students tuition fees: about $31k a year.
Harvard students tuition fees: about $34k a year.

Not including administrative fees, club fees or expenses for room and board.

Re:Moral of the story (1)

ls671 (1122017) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782329)

> Here in Quebec, Canada

You mean "up north" like it is referenced by people in the States ? (it's OK, I am from Quebec too... ;-)

I am not sure I follow your logic although, the tuition rate the Quebec Universities get is the same for every student without regards for where the student comes from. The only difference is that the government pays back the universities for the difference they charge to Quebec citizen, so Quebec citizen end up paying less from their pocket.

Americans are not too keen on socialist measures but to be exact, you should have said: "If you want more US citizens to obtain degrees in these fields, have the government finance the US citizen students"

You should also have mentioned a well known "brain drain" problem with Quebec system: The smartest Quebec students get their degrees for almost nothing and end up leaving the country to work somewhere else so they never pay any income tax to Quebec to help finance the costs of their degrees for which the government paid 4/5 of its cost.

Foreigner often get their Quebec citizenship through marriage or other methods to study here for close to nothing and then leave to work somewhere else as well.

Quality of life (2, Interesting)

Concerned Onlooker (473481) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782127)

"...most said their salaries brought a 'better quality of life' than what they had in the US."

I'm guessing that by better quality they mean materialistically. Being a US citizen I would prefer to live in a place where human rights are championed, personal liberty is maximized and freedom of speech and freedom from government oppression is paramount. So, I guess I'm saying where should I move to?

Re:Quality of life (4, Insightful)

coaxial (28297) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782157)

I'm guessing that by better quality they mean materialistically. Being a US citizen I would prefer to live in a place where human rights are championed, personal liberty is maximized and freedom of speech and freedom from government oppression is paramount.

Unless someone is afraid of being randomly assaulted or imprisoned, then no one cares. It's human nature. Bread and circuses you know? I've been to China. It's not Mao's China, not at all.

So, I guess I'm saying where should I move to?

Canada?

Re:Quality of life (1)

bertok (226922) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782353)

I'm guessing that by better quality they mean materialistically. Being a US citizen I would prefer to live in a place where human rights are championed, personal liberty is maximized and freedom of speech and freedom from government oppression is paramount.

Unless someone is afraid of being randomly assaulted or imprisoned, then no one cares. It's human nature. Bread and circuses you know? I've been to China. It's not Mao's China, not at all.

So, I guess I'm saying where should I move to?

Canada?

Canada is cold. Come to Australia! I wore a T-Shirt through most of winter in Sydney, but we've got a couple of token mountains that see snow in the winter for people who like that kind of thing. 8)

Re:Quality of life (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782237)

I'm guessing that by better quality they mean materialistically. Being a US citizen I would prefer to live in a place where human rights are championed, personal liberty is maximized and freedom of speech and freedom from government oppression is paramount. So, I guess I'm saying where should I move to?

Probably one of the Nordic countries.

Re:Quality of life (5, Insightful)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782265)

Somalia. The government is too weak to oppress anyone. Of course, that only works if you don't mind giving up a lot of your personal safety, but hey, you win some you lose some.

You really ought to define what you mean by government oppression. Would you include taxation in that category? Because you aren't going to find many governments that don't tax.....

Re:Quality of life (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782269)

I work in a place where the majority of my colleagues are Indian including both developers and management. I can attest to the trends. I'm the exception by not holding a masters and by being born here. I'm responding because of a false assumption you made. You guessed that the better quality of life is a materialistic quality. For the majority of my friends who moved back to India it was not about that. While that played a role, their wives and families were residing there. It was difficult to deal with the paper work. The cricket matches weren't shown live at 3am. It's a plethora of smaller items which all add up. They aren't from the US and do not necessarily share the same values as you. Think more holistically for a second and you'll understand. It's about living where you are comfortable and are content. That's why my Indian friends are moving back to India and I completely understand.

Re:Quality of life (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782281)

maybe somewhere in europe? http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm [worldaudit.org]

Re:Quality of life (1)

superyanthrax (835242) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782295)

Right, so because you're a well off WASP, you can stand in your Ivory Tower and be your sanctimonious self pretending like you somehow have some higher moral ground, while your compatriots discriminate against Asians, stunting their career advancement, paying them less than whites, laying them off first in an economic crisis, etc, and now you're surprised when our home countries welcome us back with open arms and give us great well-paying job opportunities as well, and so we decide to leave?

I'll bet you the panhandler on the street and the guy that just got laid off couldn't care less about human rights and personal liberty. If China offered them a permanent well paying job and an apartment, they'll go. Of course there is no incentive for us to pay random bums, we're past the era of doing completely unproductive things just to score political points.

Re:Quality of life (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782297)

Apparently you should move somewhere in Europe or Australasia (or Canada).

Denmark, Finland, Sweden and New Zealand are the least corrupt countries in the world (they tend to move a little depending on the year, but they are pretty standard).

Norway, Australia, Iceland and Canada currently top the U.N.s Human Development Index (but there are 38 countries listed in the "very high" group).

The Worldwide Press Freedom Index lists Iceland, Norway, etc. as the most free/least censored (you can check the list).

Basically, in all avenues, the Nordic countries and Australasia tend to come out best in most metrics. I'd stick to Europe though (I'm a New Zealander in Australia) - Australia doesn't recognise gay rights much (no civil unions, no same-sex marriage, a host of other inequalities), has increasing internet and gaming censorship lobbying; New Zealand does have "separate but equal" civil unions, but has companies increasing lobbying for internet and copyright control. Both countries want internet filters in place.

Not sure of the situation in the Nordic countries. But they do champion human rights and have comprehensive social welfare programs (so does New Zealand. I'm a little disappointed in how Australia does it... they fall quite a bit short).

If I had the choice I would move to Europe or Canada (and I've lived in New Zealand and Australia). Of course, my bias is that I'm gay. I believe how countries recognise rights for gay people is a pretty good indication of their stance on all human rights. And I would like to live in a country where I'm not a second class citizen. Your personal preferences may vary ;)

Re:Quality of life (1)

arcade (16638) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782349)

Also remember, although Iceland is a beautiful country - their economy is shot to hell. You probably don't want to move there permanently.

The other nordic countries have hellish tax-rates.

Re:Quality of life (1)

wizardforce (1005805) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782315)

I would agree with you however, the last eight years did a heck of a job destroying a lot of the freedom the US has been known for in the past. The scary thing is that Bush's policies are not likely to be reversed nor be an isolated incident. It's to the point where I've seriously considered leaving the US. The only thing really to consider is where to go...

Re:Quality of life (1)

BikeHelmet (1437881) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782321)

I'm guessing that by better quality they mean materialistically.

Being an American, you would think that. Believe it or not, some cultures don't care much about all that materialistic stuff. It could be the smell of the air(big US city = horrible), travel time to work every day(under 15 mins please!), hostile neighbours, etc.; or the desire to reunite with friends and family from their home country. There's probably a hundred or more reasons that would be right up there with cash.

Being a US citizen I would prefer to live in a place where human rights are championed, personal liberty is maximized and freedom of speech and freedom from government oppression is paramount. So, I guess I'm saying where should I move to?

Canada! =P

No wait - we don't want you. You have too much pride in your own nation. Stay in the US - the only nation with true freedom of speech...blah blah blah.

Re:Quality of life (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782333)

Antarctica? The Moon nice this time of year.... Mars you can have the rights you want till someone else goes there.

Re:Quality of life (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782385)

Somehow, I doubt people at the senior executive level don't have to worry too much about such things...

Who says this is a bad thing? (4, Interesting)

ShooterNeo (555040) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782139)

The reasons for this exodus are straight out of an economics textbook. This is SUPPOSED to happen in a free world with free trade. Overall, this move is ADVANCING human civilization and making things just a bit better for the rest of humanity. Right now, the high tech industry in California is one of the most amazing industries the world has ever known. Among other things, those highly educated people who are returning to China and India are bringing knowledge and skills that will allow them to replicate some of the wonders of California in India and China. How is that a bad thing?

Sure, those Chinese and Indian companies will compete with the U.S. firms...but competition is a good thing for humanity as a whole.

Re:Who says this is a bad thing? (0, Troll)

adolf (21054) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782153)

As an American, I don't give a fuck about "human civilization."

Instead, I care about what's good for the US.

Re:Who says this is a bad thing? (3, Insightful)

dreadlord76 (562584) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782179)

I think it's sad that many people are still bound by these artificial boundaries.

Re:Who says this is a bad thing? (1)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782183)

As an American, I don't give a fuck about "human civilization." Instead, I care about what's good for the US.

The Ugly American appears. No wonder they're going home.

Re:Who says this is a bad thing? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782225)

For those who are dissing this comment, saying how we should hope for a better humanity, and for the boundaries to blur, allow me to explain something.

Graduate schools are in part funded by taxes, which Americans pay. Personally I do not pay taxes to have my quality of life decrease just so that the world can improve.

Additionally, I'm an United States citizen, not Chinese or Indian. Do you think China will protect my rights (or even their citizens' hahaha)? Do you think India has my best interest in their mind?

So long as I want to enjoy the freedom and protection America gives me, I should hope that it succeeds above the other countries.

It's not my mind that has artificial boundaries, it's the world itself, and since I have to live in this world, I know full well that globalization comes with a real price.

If you are willing to sacrifice not only your money, but your rights, to improve a distant corner of the world, then why don't you pay taxes to them to?

If you are willing to sacrifice the regime you live under, to improve one that gives you absolutely nothing, you shouldn't be complaining about censorship in China, or human rights violations.

We (citizens) are American, we pay taxes to America, we have western values, and we many of our rights are protected by our government. If we don't want our way of life destroyed, it's high time we try to protect our country.

Re:Who says this is a bad thing? (1, Offtopic)

adolf (21054) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782283)

Note to mods: There is no "-1, Disagree" moderation on Slashdot. So, just because you disagree with it, doesn't mean that you should pick some other random negative moderation instead. I'm not trolling; I'm stating a very real opinion, and presenting it as such in a very concise way.

Yet, the comment is currently marked as -1, Troll.

Sometimes, I think the mods here are as bigoted as anyone else on Slashdot, only more cowardly.

Re:Who says this is a bad thing? (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782351)

I agree with you on the mods, I read slashdot raw and unfiltered. This completely removes the power from the mods.

They can go fuck cats.

I actually enjoy reading the occasional insightful and funny comment interspersed with natalie portman hot grits, gna posts, stephen king is dead at 47 posts, etc etc etc.

Let's face it, the new slashdot sucks walrus smegma.

and it's seriously become a home for lefty, obama lovers. i hate all the presidents, and when i hate on obama, then want to put me in some kind of box, and label me. "I'm a right wing nut", fuck all of you fucking government suck ups, left and right.

not only is it a zero sum game country-wise....it's a zero sum game at the individual level. all you "it takes a village" mother fuckers on the left and "country first" mother fuckers on the right .....go fuck yourselves.

both camps are delusional ...as if one or the other is out to "fix" america.

stupid motherfuckers.

Re:Who says this is a bad thing? (1, Flamebait)

coaxial (28297) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782171)

Sure, those Chinese and Indian companies will compete with the U.S. firms...but competition is a good thing for humanity as a whole.

Fuck that shit. It's zero sum.

Re:Who says this is a bad thing? (2, Insightful)

dreadlord76 (562584) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782203)

If that was true, then we would still be hunting with long sticks rather than sitting in front of a keyboard.

Re:Who says this is a bad thing? (1)

Jack9 (11421) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782301)

Some of us are still hunting with long sticks.

Different Cultural Values (4, Informative)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782159)

Two comments. First, "age of prime" is 30-33? Is IT really that anti-fogey? Second, degrees above bachelor are generally held in higher regard outside of the US. US companies value what they see as "actual productivity" and will usually trade a more productive BS for a lack-luster MS[1]. In most countries, especially Asia, advanced degrees are simply given more esteem compared to the US. More money AND more chicks.

[1] Those with advanced degrees claim their extra knowledge helps in areas that are less visible to management but still very important. But, that's another story.
     

Multi Cultural Experience , beyond the degree (1)

Bob_Who (926234) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782221)

Internationalization is key in the current world market. Corporations eagerly recruit those with language ability, especially with experience overseas. It seems reasonable that people from Asia, with higher education and work experience in the United States would have particular upper management value to business in Asia, that market or pursue partnership with the Americas.

Reverse? (4, Insightful)

il dus (244149) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782165)

Maybe my brain has been drained, too, but, if all the educated people are leaving the US, wouldn't that be a good old regular brain drain and not a reverse brain drain?

Re:Reverse? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782177)

Only if the States weren't the center of the universe.

Re:Reverse? (1)

Nyeerrmm (940927) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782243)

I think reverse applies in this case because its not US-native students and professionals leaving to go to other places, but rather that the visitors aren't staying as often. Not really an ideal descriptions, but it does effectively imply a difference from what you'd first think of with 'brain drain', and it works pretty well if you consider the original 'brain drain' being us taking the best and brightest from other countries..

Of course, whether or not that is a good or bad thing I leave as an exercise for the reader -- my bias is towards more globalism, but I'm an engineer and not an economist, so I'll leave it for more knowledgeable people to discuss.

Re:Reverse? (4, Informative)

DreamsAreOkToo (1414963) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782341)

In social studies, the "Brain Drain" was something the US was doing to the rest of the world by "taking away their brains." Now, those people are going back to their countries so it is a reversal of the "Brain Drain."

Re:Reverse? (0, Troll)

aralin (107264) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782379)

Let me guess, ... american?

What they leave behind (-1, Flamebait)

symbolset (646467) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782187)

The leave behind the by-blows of countless teens left home alone, single moms dancing to pay for college, and girls who briefly fell in love with a swarthy foreigner whose name they never knew.

In short we've had the best of them, and good riddance to the rest.

This has happened before. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782191)

The Chinese ICBM / space program was started by a man deported from the US in 1958 during the McCarthy era. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsien_Hsue-shen ). You'd think the inherent lesson from that situation would be burning brightly right now, but apparently the US has already deported everyone capable of learning from past mistakes. A nation of idiots, you are.

living in Asia, land of my forefathers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782211)

more than anything else, this portends the end of the American century.

I've come back to Korea to build state of the art mobile applications based on social networking.

The last company my CEO ran grew to employ over two thousand people on three continents. After cashing out he became a very rich man. Now he wants to repeat this success but is starting in Korea.

Because this is where the opportunity is.

Re:living in Asia, land of my forefathers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782373)

North Korea? I hear that's a great growth market, especially in Nuclear engineering and applied rocketry.

Not about Visas (3, Interesting)

lyinhart (1352173) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782215)

From the article: "Some 27% of the Indians and 34% of the Chinese had permanent resident status or were U.S. citizens. That’s right—it’s not just about green cards." It does seem to have everything to do with the economy: "Only 7% of Chinese students, 9% of European students, and 25% of Indian students believe that the best days of the U.S. economy lie ahead. Conversely, 74% of Chinese students and 86% of Indian students believe that the best days for their home country’s economy lie ahead."

Given that the United States has taken the lion's share of blame for the "global economic crisis", this attitude is not surprising. Plus, we're long removed from the heyday of the Silicon Valley, an era in which innovation and idea poaching ruled instead of racing to patent anything remotely obvious. Twenty, even ten years ago, there was little talk of India or China becoming the next economic superpower. So the idea of being both financially secure and being close to your family is really appealing to these folks.

It's not all doom and gloom though - it still speaks volumes that these workers come to the United States to cut their teeth and gain the technical/management experience that they bring back home.

Re:Not about Visas (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782339)

It happens here in Australia too. People work in a stable country to get citizenship, then leave to start a business and get rich. It is easier to do that in Asian countries which are less regulated and where taxes are low. If they stuff up they have citizenship in a stable country to fall back on.

Re:Not about Visas (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782343)

It's not all doom and gloom though - it still speaks volumes that these workers come to the United States to cut their teeth and gain the technical/management experience that they bring back home.

Mayhaps fifty years from now the US will be a country that primarily exports education rather than material goods? A massive school country for the training and development of the leaders of tomorrow?

We could demand compensation from the rest of the world by material goods and so on in return for educating their children. Personally I find such a system to be interesting, but unlikely given the nature of countries, states, prefectures, and so on. The US is unlikely to leave all their necessary material goods to another country and other countries are unlikely to be willing to leave their youth in the hands of another country. Perhaps if we had a more global state of mind such a system would work.

Racism (0, Troll)

ub3r n3u7r4l1st (1388939) | more than 5 years ago | (#29782253)

When you have rising population of white supremacist and neo-cons in this country, who claims that Chinese people are coming over to kill Americans, bringing in loaded guns into an Obama town hall meeting, glass ceiling in corporations (especially defense contractors), I wouldn't surprise this happen, sooner or later.

You could go back to India (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782319)

But then you'd have to live in _India_

why (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782323)

Woow Kizlik bozma [liselikizlikbozma.com]

My H1-B was rejected. (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782327)

I am in this position right now. I am an H1-B holder. I have a Masters in Computer Science. While most of my coworkers worked 40-45 hours a week I was doing 80 and quickly gained higher positions and expertise (hard work pays off in the land of opportunity). I love the US. Its a great place to live and I've lived here since I came to do my Bachelors (Computer Science also). I paid out of state tuition for all 7 years, out of my own pocket (which totaled > 60K).

I recently applied for an extension on my H1-B after my 3 years of working at a company and it was rejected by the government. The initial reason given was that we couldn't prove that my job required a degree so they came back and asked us for more info (called an RFI - request for information). (I am involved in long term projects from architecture, design, development and process analysis). The day I found out that my visa was rejected, my company, a small business of about 30 people also found out that a dept of the state had chosen me to work for them on a project for which they interviewed 30 people from around the US. My company lost that deal because the US rejected my visa and lost out on > 500,000 dollars of revenue over the contract. The company also lost 3 other contracts with clients I was currently with which would have probably panned out to 50k-100k each per year.

The revenue from that contract would have keep me and 2 other co-workers employed for at least 3 years and now my former company is going to probably fire 2 US citizens. This was the height of irony! The government royally screwed my company.

The immigration dept has really cracked down on H1-B visa holders and is rejecting them by asking them to prove stupid claims. Here are a few questions from my RFI.

1. Why does a Senior Software Engineer position require a Computer Science degree!
2. Provide all earning statements for the last 3 years and for all states you had income from.
3. Provide all client contracts that you had in the last 3 years for the full company.
4. Provide a detailed job description along with future contracts (for all 3 years) along with locations, contacts of client companies and images of work areas.

My visa was finally rejected because they feared that I would work in California (where my company doesn't have any clients or a branch). The process is really ridiculous right now and I have started looking at canada, singapore and india. I would prefer to stay and finish my 3 years and get a path to citizenship but if I have to leave, so be it.

The icing on the cake is that since they reject my appeal, I have 10 days to leave the country. So pack your bags, sell your car and belongings (or throw them away) and get the fuck out in 10 days.

Thanks for all the fish O Land of Opportunity!

I will say this to all you US citizen and green card holders. DO NOT SQUANDER YOUR OPPORTUNITIES! The US is the greatest place on earth and if you work hard, you can really live a great life. Peace.

I want to leave the USA and take my job with me... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#29782369)

The GFC and the collapse of the USD mean one thing: living standards are going to drop in the USA. That's an experience I'm happy to leave to the Americans.

Where i work, I'm waiting for H&R to give me the nod so I can export myself and my job (mmm, telecommuniting) out of the USA. I've had enough of needing to drive to work everyday and put up with SFBA traffic woes.

Sure, the weather in SFBA might be pleasant most of the year, but I'd rather live and work in a city where I can walk or use public transport to easily get to/from work.

There will probably be a pay cut in relocating out of the SFBA but I'm not worried: the SFBA is an absurdly expensive place to live, especially in Silicon Valley, when you consider what you get for your money.

And don't forget that the vallue of the US dollar is dropping on a daily basis, back to where it was pre-GFC, so the value of my salary (in real world terms) is also dropping.

To summarise, I can live a much more comfortable life in other parts of the world without having to worry about my retirement fund becoming worthless or the value of my savings/investments being degraded. It is nice to have lived and worked in SFBA but the USA is not a place I want to spend my entire life in.

Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?