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Microsoft Loses Appeal of "Vista-Capable" Lawsuit

kdawson posted more than 5 years ago | from the now-it-comes-out dept.

Microsoft 236

bfwebster writes "Microsoft has lost its appeal to remove class-action status for the 'Vista Capable' lawsuit that has already resulted in some embarrassing internal e-mails being released publicly. As Computerworld reports, in its appeal to the US Ninth Circuit Court, Microsoft argued (among other things) that 'continuing the lawsuit might mean new disclosures of insider e-mails, which could "jeopardize Microsoft's goodwill" and "disrupt Microsoft's relationships with its business partners."' Given what's been released so far (158-page PDF), not to mention Microsoft's history of rather frank internal e-mails, that's probably putting it mildly. There could be some interesting reading ahead."

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236 comments

Goodwill? (5, Funny)

webview (49052) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165138)

Microsoft's Goodwill? Everyone (including ISVs and OEMs) know how to work with Microsoft.

Re:Goodwill? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23165480)

Microsoft 'goodwill'?

"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."

Lies (1)

EmotionToilet (1083453) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165544)

"jeopardize Microsoft's goodwill" and "disrupt Microsoft's relationships with its business partners." Isn't that just lawyer speak for: "Yeah, of course everything we say is a lie, but we can't have other companies knowing about that, or they might not trust us anymore!!! If they don't trust us, they'll never give us their money, and we'll end up alone and poor, which we know we obviously deserve, but there must be enough loop holes in the system for us to rig this so we don't look like the greedy pieces of crap that we are!" Uhh... yeah... that sounds about right...

Re:Goodwill? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23165874)

"jeopardize Microsoft's goodwill" and "disrupt Microsoft's relationships with its business partners" are proofs that Microsoft looks only good at the surface but is rotten beneath. They are nothing more than a lip service. If Microsoft truly had goodwill towards customers and didn't want to distrupt its relationships with its business partner, then they wouldn't have damning internal emails on how to push a bad product on customers and business partners.

Lol, look at your super high UID, jagoff! (-1, Offtopic)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166014)

YOU are a JAGOFF. MAnY PENISBIRDS in your SOUP, FRiEND! LoL!!

We say MOAR now (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23166888)

MOAR penisbirds. It's pronounced MOAR penisbirds now, you lovable throwback to a bygone era.

Does this mean? (1)

jawtheshark (198669) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165162)

Does this mean, I can get a refund on the Turion X2/ATI X1100/1Gig RAM/120Gig HD laptop I got with the Vista Capable sticker? It was on sale (before Vista got out, for a good reason, I think), and I installed Ubuntu on it. I could use a little cash...

(For anyone not getting the joke: No I know I'm not getting cash from a class action suite)

Re:Does this mean? (1)

i.of.the.storm (907783) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166164)

Err, that's a pretty decent laptop so I would probably guess it wouldn't apply anyway. And to be honest, the joke wasn't funny in the first place ;).

Re:Does this mean? (1)

ozmanjusri (601766) | more than 5 years ago | (#23167064)

Nah, I have a Compaq Presario V6000 with the same specs. It has a "Vista Capable" sticker on it, but is painfully slow, and stutters badly with Vista.

Yay! (2, Funny)

symbolset (646467) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165170)

If he wins... we get more coupons for Microsoft products... in 2024.

Re:Yay! (5, Funny)

phillymjs (234426) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165272)

Who cares about the eventual outcome? I just want to read more of the damning stuff that gets uncovered in discovery, and clap my hands together with glee!

~Philly

Re:Yay! (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23165320)

If he wins... we get more coupons for Microsoft products... in 2024.

You sure their next OS will be out by then? They don't plan on releasing it until it's completely finished, you know.

Re:Yay! (4, Funny)

techno-vampire (666512) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165394)

They don't plan on releasing it until it's completely finished, you know.


Are they planning on calling it "Duke Windows Forever?"

"Microsoft's Goodwill" ? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23165202)

"Microsoft's Goodwill" ?

You mean the way they try and extinguish open source initiatives, but don't destroy the developers houses?

Re:"Microsoft's Goodwill" ? (4, Funny)

kurt555gs (309278) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165242)

Interesting how lawyers can put words together that are utterly meaningless.

Microsoft + Goodwill = ?

Those words can not be used in the same sentence in English.

Cheers
 

Re:"Microsoft's Goodwill" ? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23165380)

Microsoft + Goodwill = ?

i'm troll of Godwim co

microsoft +Real bad attitude (3, Interesting)

RiotingPacifist (1228016) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165640)

Oh wait, the shoe is on the other foot now, quick somebody phone JWZ so he can kick!
The thing is at these emails actually have relevance to the case, bad attitude and real bad attitude were nothing other than rants with no technical/buisness dealing in them, and microsoft still subpoena them.

In memory of mozilla, about:mozilla should have something really fitting in firefox 3:

"And then the just as the rage of the hero had been shown when he first fell to the ground, the deceit, lies & horror of the beast were opened for the world to see"
For bonus points somebody at Mozilla could grow some and stick a link to the court records of MSs emails as an update when they're all out!

Re:microsoft +Real bad attitude (1)

calebt3 (1098475) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166596)

Mammon slept. And the beast reborn spread over the earth and its numbers grew legion. And they proclaimed the times and
sacrificed crops unto the fire, with the cunning of foxes. And they built a new world in their own image as promised by the
sacred words, and spoke of the beast with their children. Mammon awoke, and lo! it was naught but a follower.

from The Book of Mozilla, 11:9

Re:"Microsoft's Goodwill" ? (5, Insightful)

owlnation (858981) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165728)

Microsoft + Goodwill = ?
Those words can not be used in the same sentence in English.
Actually they can. However, to make the sentence work, in it you also have to have words like: "none", "no", "without", "never", "abused", etc...

Re:"Microsoft's Goodwill" ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23166210)

In other words, it's "Microsoft - Goodwill"

Re:"Microsoft's Goodwill" ? (2, Interesting)

Loconut1389 (455297) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166586)

Or, Microsoft has shown lots of goodwill by allowing XP to be sold longer and donation kagillions to charity.

Now, I'm no MS fan here (I run OS-X and CentOS), but that's an awfully wide brush.

Re:"Microsoft's Goodwill" ? (1)

AdamKG (1004604) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166962)

Bill Gates has donated kagillions. I'm sure Microsoft has probably donated a lot as well, although I don't know if it's comparably larger than other companies their size. But it's Gates, as a private citizen, that's really been doing the remarkable amounts of philanthropy.

Re:"Microsoft's Goodwill" ? (1)

blind monkey 3 (773904) | more than 5 years ago | (#23167140)

I'd like to have some goodwill too - how about giving me all your money then I'll donate half of it to charity (ducks to avoid hurtling chairs).

Re:"Microsoft's Goodwill" ? (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 5 years ago | (#23167134)

Actually they can. However, to make the sentence work, in it you also have to have words like: "none", "no", "without", "never", "abused", etc...
Not necessarily. Also works in this system: "I got an old machine with Microsoft Windows 95 installed on it at Goodwill."

Hey, at least I tried. :)

Re:"Microsoft's Goodwill" ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23165798)

Interesting how lawyers can put words together that are utterly meaningless.

Microsoft + Goodwill = ?

Those words can not be used in the same sentence in English.

Cheers

Microsoft + Goodwill = ?

I'm not sure that works in math either, Microsoft is real and its Goodwill is imaginary.

Re:"Microsoft's Goodwill" ? (2, Insightful)

neuromanc3r (1119631) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165956)

They can, even though the sentence would probably have to run along the lines of "Wayforward technologies, unlike such major companies as Microsoft, shows goodwill..." (Apologies to Douglas Adams)

Re:"Microsoft's Goodwill" ? (1)

pwizard2 (920421) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166662)

Those words can not be used in the same sentence in English.
Yep, such a scenario would probably make the universe segfault and turn the sky into a giant BSOD.

Re:"Microsoft's Goodwill" ? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23167198)

Well it could mean "goodwill" in the accounting sense. When a company buys another one for more than it's book value, the excess is added to "goodwill" on the financial statements. Maybe they think that the additional value of some of the companies they've bought will evaporate if the public gets a really good look at the cancer-ridden microsoft internals.

Re:"Microsoft's Goodwill" ? (2, Informative)

mythras (997054) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166562)

Goodwill is an accounting term used by companies to place a value on patents, Intellectual Property Rights, Copyrights, Branding, etc. So, apparently Microsoft is worried it will drop further into the negative than it is now.

Will M$ be able to get right for windows 7? or is (-1, Offtopic)

Joe The Dragon (967727) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165204)

Will M$ be able to get right for windows 7? or is it time to start looking at mac or linux?

Re:Will M$ be able to get right for windows 7? or (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23165334)

Oh, please. You know as well as I do that "Windows 7" will be shipped no sooner than 2011, and will maybe contain only one or two of the many, many features they will be promising us in the meantime.

Re:Will M$ be able to get right for windows 7? or (1)

arotenbe (1203922) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165410)

Not true. Microsoft has stated that it will ship Windows 7 at a fixed date and will be including whatever features they can fit in in that timeframe. In other words, your post should have read:

Oh, please. You know as well as I do that "Windows 7" will be shipped no sooner than 2009, and will maybe contain only one or two of the many, many features they will be promising us in the meantime
<sarcasm>Big difference!</sarcasm>

Re:Will M$ be able to get right for windows 7? or (2, Funny)

Adambomb (118938) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165338)

or is it time to start looking at mac or linux?
It wasn't before now? I'm constantly amazed at peoples threshold for tolerating pain as long as they're told it won't hurt =)

Re:Will M$ be able to get right for windows 7? or (4, Funny)

click2005 (921437) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165886)

I'm constantly amazed at peoples threshold for tolerating pain as long as they're told it won't hurt =)

So you're saying Microsoft is like the nurse who lies and says him/her taking some blood wont hurt, right before stabbing you with a massive needle and deliberately scraping the needle against the bone for 5 minutes only to tell you they couldn't find a vein and needs to try the other arm. You make some comment but ultimately you need a blood test to find out if the pound of flesh you had to give up to buy your 5Ghz Core4 PC with 24gig of ram barely able to run Vista has resulted in an infection of some kind.

Re:Will M$ be able to get right for windows 7? or (1)

sc0ob5 (836562) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166232)

I like to think of Microsoft as a cruel kid and windows users as frogs.

Pain threshold is very great when it is applied slowly but steadily.

Re:Will M$ be able to get right for windows 7? or (1)

jawtheshark (198669) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165378)

Well, you do what you want.... But at home (where I'm typing) I migrated to Ubuntu 7.10. At work, I run Debian Etch. Sure, I'm technically not allowed to because it's not my machine, but nobody noticed yet....

You don't need Windows if you're not locked into Microsoft technologies.

Re:Will M$ be able to get right for windows 7? or (4, Funny)

RiotingPacifist (1228016) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165572)

quick reset it! thats the key give away that its not a windows machine >90% uptime.

Re:Will M$ be able to get right for windows 7? or (1)

CycoChuck (102607) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165522)

It might take M$ a while to recover from the Vista mistake. Maybe you should wait for Windows 22.

Depressing: (5, Insightful)

gcnaddict (841664) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165232)

What's depressing is that a number of the execs complained about the Vista Capable thing too (Mike Nash being one of them, but there are others who didn't complain in their emails).

The Vista Capable debacle happened the exact same way both the Challenger and Columbia disasters happened; the only reason those with objections went with the majority decision was due to group suppression of judgment. Psychological conformity, essentially.

Re:Depressing: (5, Insightful)

bhtooefr (649901) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165416)

So, in other words, just like how Slashdot works?

Re:Depressing: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23166252)

Yeah, it's exactly like how Slashdot works. /sarcasm

Wait a minute...Hmm, maybe it is just like... Oh boy, MICROSOFT IS TEH FUXORED!!1!11 W00t!

Re:Depressing: (2, Funny)

AdamKG (1004604) | more than 5 years ago | (#23167036)

You were modded up for noting that Slashdot's moderation was driven by psychological conformity... which, depending on your perspective, could be viewed either as a vindication or as a counterpoint to your comment.

Slashdot moderators became self-aware at 7:29PM, April 21, 2008...

Re:Depressing: (2, Insightful)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 5 years ago | (#23167160)

You're kidding, right?

If Slashdot users were designing a product, it would be in development for twenty years because nobody would ever be able to agree on what the product would actually be, and every feature discussion would devolve into an endless flamefest between people of diametrically opposed opinions.

Slashdot "groupthink" is at worst one of high school cliques, where everyone joins their favorite group and pretends it's the best, but there are dozens of cliques and there's essentially no downside to being part of an "uncool" clique.

The difference is that at Microsoft there is a Boss Man whose personal opinion is the Officially Sanctioned Groupthink, and you need to have some serious stones to speak up against it because it's your job on the line.

What are you risking for going against the "groupthink" here? Some fucking worthless "karma"? Oh wait, you got modded up, I bet you're real surprised too.

Re:Depressing: (1)

Koiu Lpoi (632570) | more than 5 years ago | (#23167172)

Slashdot is about the only place suffering from groupthink that exemplifies the people who point it out.

How Much Really? (4, Interesting)

gbulmash (688770) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165248)

I wonder, though, how much this will really cost.

Some of the machines that said "vista capable" were, some were barely capable. But they've been downplaying the minimum requirements forever. If you had a system with the minimum requirements for XP, it ran like a dog. Did people expect that buying something with the minimum requirements for Vista would generate better results?

In the end, I think some entertainment might come out of the trial, but the financial award will end up being little more than a slap on the wrist to Microsoft. Time will tell.

- Greg

Re:How Much Really? (3, Informative)

Joe The Dragon (967727) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165458)

The Vista Premium Ready requirements are about there for a low end base line but the "core" ones are to low. The core should of been what Vista Premium is and Vista Premium should be moved to 2gb or more ram + HT or dual core or better cpu with a video card with 128 MB or more of graphics memory useing it's own ram.

Re:How Much Really? (4, Insightful)

xouumalperxe (815707) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165606)

I don't think it's fair to expect people today to remember how XP ran in 2001 when it was released. Most users are not, and need not be, technically oriented, and it's been 7 bloody years (Microsoft's fault on that last bit ;). While I personally don't expect things to run perfectly on the minimum required hardware, I do think it's fair to expect them to run decently though.

If the expression "minimum requirements" is defined as "the very least required to run", then the "minimum requirements" announced are probably a fair bit above what Vista actually demands to run, so that's not quite right. In fact, a google search for "Vista minimum requirements" yields a page on Microsoft's site called "Windows Vista recommended system requirements".

Now, you may say I'm splitting hairs or arguing semantics, but fact is, it says "recommended system requirements", and I say it's quite fair to demand companies make sure that the recommended specs suffice for a reasonable experience.

Re:How Much Really? (1)

NullSolaris (1068138) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165718)

>>I don't think it's fair to expect people today to remember how XP ran in 2001 when it was released.

If you want to remember...

Back then, when XP was released, XP had reasonable requirements. Granted, performance sucked with only 128MB of RAM, but 128 more MB made it run like a rocket. Hell, 64MB more RAM made it run a lot better. Vista performance (was, most Vista boxes I've seen have started to suck less) terrible, but thankfully, this is improving. I have 2 friends with Vista boxes they got recently, and Vista runs pretty fast on them. Copying is slow as hell though, and I see a preparing to copy window for extended periods of time now. (70MB copied)

tl;dr: Win XP sys. reqs. weren't that bad when it was released, Vista sys. reqs. are too high for the machines they're being shipped on, but this is getting better.

Re:How Much Really? (1)

MBC1977 (978793) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165800)

Define reasonable? Your reasonable may not be another's reasonable. Another thing to consider is the software load on the system. A bare Vista installation (with the recommended specs) works just fine. Start adding software and depending on the quality of that software and whether or not it was developed for Vista (with those recommend specs in mind), depends on whether you have a turtle or a deer (bad analogy aside).

Re:How Much Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23166442)

hey! that's no car analogy!
unless it's a snapper vs. a john deere, but thats a stretch and a half.

Re:How Much Really? (3, Insightful)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166060)

Let's compare minimum requirements for Vista to the minimum requirements that most game developers come up with. When I used to buy PC games, the minimum requirements got you 640x480 with all the graphics turned down to minimum, along with the sound quality dropped down also. And it only ran at 20-30 FPS. Less if there was lots going on. The experience on Vista with the minimum requirements is about the same. You don't get any shiny graphics, and it runs quite slowly. Quite often the frame rate drops to zero few 10 seconds while it brings up a UAC dialog, but it works, and it is usable, assuming you aren't trying to run a bunch of memory hungry apps. I wouldn't want to run VS.Net or Photoshop on a machine with Vista and only 512 MB of RAM. But if you're just browsing the web and doing some word processing, the minimum requirements are fine.

Re:How Much Really? (4, Insightful)

LurkerXXX (667952) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166024)

Yes, XP with the minimum system requirements ran like a dog. You could do anything you wanted with it, but it was dog slow.

The difference is, with Vista, with the minimum requirements, it not only is dog slow, but there are many features of it that you simply can't run. At all. And others that you can run, but only with reduced function.

That's a huge difference.

Re:How Much Really? (1)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166370)

How is that different from games? With games, the minimum requirements often will give you a very reduced version of the game. A network card isn't in the requirements, but you don't get to play online if you don't have one. That's quite a significant part of many games.

Re:How Much Really? (1)

LurkerXXX (667952) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166376)

An operating system is not a game.

Re:How Much Really? (1)

T-Bone-T (1048702) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166876)

You are factually correct, but your intent(taken from the context of the comment) is not. An OS is not a game, but it does require a computer of some sort.

Re:How Much Really? (0, Offtopic)

0100010001010011 (652467) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166056)

OS X runs fairly well on the 'bare minimum'. So much so some people have hacked it to run on less than the bare minimum. In addition to the fact that each major release has run FASTER on all of my hardware.

I heard KDE 4 is supposed to be like that also.

Why can't Microsoft, who heavily recruits some of the best programmers, manage to do this?

Re:How Much Really? (1)

AvitarX (172628) | more than 5 years ago | (#23167034)

I disagree.

I had first gen mini's upped to 1GB ram and opening apps takes a real long time.

Like is this crashed? no stuff is still going. Oh, it's just balls slow.

In Communist China (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23165302)

Tanks squash Microsoft. No, really!

Are They Serious? (5, Insightful)

Bob9113 (14996) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165330)

As Computerworld reports, in its appeal to the US Ninth Circuit Court, Microsoft argued (among other things) that 'continuing the lawsuit might mean new disclosures of insider e-mails, which could "jeopardize Microsoft's goodwill" and "disrupt Microsoft's relationships with its business partners."'

Are they serious? "We're assholes, and we've been caught, and being caught being an asshole makes the world think you're an asshole, which would be bad for business. Therefore, we should not allow the courts to expose the fact that we're assholes. Our precious money stream relies on being able to be assholes without getting caught." I hope the judge hit their lawyer in the face with a shovel before saying, "denied."

Agreed! Stupid Arguement (4, Funny)

HaeMaker (221642) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165690)

My business would be harmed by a lawsuit? DUH!

It reminds me of "Liar Liar":

Fletcher: Your honor, I object!
Judge: Why?
Fletcher: Because it's devastating to my case!
Judge: Overruled.
Fletcher: Good call!

Re:Agreed! Stupid Arguement (1)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166908)

Fletcher: Your honor, I object!
Judge: Why?
Fletcher: Because it's devastating to my case!
http://www.google.com/search?q=unduly+prejudicial+evidence [google.com]

Evidence gets tossed out of court all the time because, while it may be admissable, it is prejudicial to the defendant. The idea being that jurors may see guilt by association or guilt from inference where none should be found.

Judges can also declare certain lines of questioning as unduly prejudicial and instruct the lawyers not to pursue them.

This is all left to the Judge's discretion and the claim is frequently brought up on appeal.

Re:Are They Serious? (3, Funny)

JordanL (886154) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166022)

That sounds like a CourtTV episode.

MS Lawyer: "Your honor, we move to have class action removed on the account that it's bad for us." Judge: *throws gavel at lawyers face* "Overruled." *smirks* "With prejudice."

Jeopardize MS goodwill? (4, Insightful)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165374)

With whom? OEM manufacturers who were forced to stuff the system with "MS recommended" additional "content" (read: adcrap)? Resellers who were browbeat to sell MS systems, and MS systems only, if they wanted to be able to offer competitive prices? Users who have been subjected to activation procedures and data collection machinations that make even some secret services blush?

Anyone still got MS in high esteem?

Re:Jeopardize MS goodwill? (1)

jawtheshark (198669) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165444)

Anyone still got MS in high esteem?

Anyone not from slashdot? *sigh*

John Q Majority doesn't know.... He's buying a computer.... Microsoft is a pretty big and thus trustworthy brand...

Re:Jeopardize MS goodwill? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23165570)

Because big == trustworthy...

If you believe that, I've got a government to sell you.

Re:Jeopardize MS goodwill? (1)

jawtheshark (198669) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165648)

Because big == trustworthy... If you believe that, I've got a government to sell you.
JFYI.... I was not talking about myself. I'm talking about John Q. Public.

Goodwill with investors (3, Insightful)

EmbeddedJanitor (597831) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165918)

Only goodwill with investors matters. MS does not really consider goodwill with OEMs or customers. They screw them around. The "install base" is just considered a corporate asset not worthy of goodwill.

Re:Jeopardize MS goodwill? (0, Offtopic)

iggy_mon (737886) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166416)

i hold microsoft in a high esteeming pile of shit.

the following is an explanation of a lame joke:
i'm spanish and i remember 2'nd grade english class in puerto rico.
teacher, " espoon, espoon "
kids, " poon!, poon! "
me, " spoooooon! hahaha! "
(give me a break, it was 2'nd grade :-)

i was raised in usa, just went to puerto rico for 2'nd grade

reminds me of Liar Liar (Jim Carrey) (2, Interesting)

v1 (525388) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165542)

continuing the lawsuit might mean new disclosures of insider e-mails, which could "jeopardize Microsoft's goodwill"

That soooo reminds me of one of the memorable quotes in LiarLiar (http://www.amazon.com/review/R2TISC7BK6BUTV)

Fletcher: Your honor, I object!
Judge: Why?
Fletcher: Because it's devastating to my case!
Judge: Overruled.
Fletcher: Good call!


I suppose the short summary of their appeal case was "We'd like you to stop digging because you'll probably find more dirt." No, the legal system is supposed to work that way, thank you. (care to borrow my shovel? how about my backhoe?)

Philosophic foundation of disliking Microsoft (5, Interesting)

shanen (462549) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165796)

I like freedom and competition. Freedom is about my being able to choose what I like and need based on real information about real option--not just the advertising propaganda. Competition creates those options. Together they work to drive progress and the evolution of better products.

Microsoft's idea is that I should only be free to choose some flavor of Microsoft, and Microsoft gets to tell me what me needs are and what the options are. Change? Only when Microsoft has bled the revenue stream dry. Evolution? Only if the better ideas outside of Microsoft are getting too much cursed publicity.

I see this as a philosophic deadlock. However, there is an easy solution. Chop Microsoft into four or five pieces. Give each of them a copy of the source and let them compete with each other (and with Linux and Apple and the rest of the current crop of dwarfs).

Re:Philosophic foundation of disliking Microsoft (1)

homer_s (799572) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166156)

Microsoft's idea is that I should only be free to choose some flavor of Microsoft, and Microsoft gets to tell me what me needs are and what the options are.

I must have missed that. I have been running linux (at home and at work) for the last 6 years and MS has *never* told me what my options are.

This might be a wild guess, but I think they only impose conditions on you if you enter into a (voluntary) agreement with them.

Re:Philosophic foundation of disliking Microsoft (1)

ozmanjusri (601766) | more than 5 years ago | (#23167328)

Or you need to interoperate with people using their products. Haven't you been paying attention to the EU prosecution, the buying of ISO etc?

Re:Philosophic foundation of disliking Microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23167454)

Uhh, that would kind of be how capitalism works; Microsoft are far from alone (as a matter of fact, *any* company in a capitalist system *must* do this). You say that Microsoft have the idea that you should be locked to their product; I *guarantee* you that there is not a single company out to make a profit that would not benefit from consumers being locked to their product.

The point is that *consumers* need to research beyond the advertising propaganda and create freedom despite what the corporations want, generating competition in the process.

This company... (5, Funny)

mr_lizard13 (882373) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165850)

...has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down

Re:This company... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23165916)

How is this not modded to the front page already? This is THE best comment on the entire page.

Re:This company... (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 5 years ago | (#23167174)

How is this not modded to the front page already? This is THE best comment on the entire page.
Microsoft is a frequent Slashdot advertiser? (Oh, c'mon, go ahead, bitchslap me!)

Why doesn't Microsoft follow the lead of the (4, Funny)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165890)

Whitehouse/Government and just "lose" emails?:)

Re:Why doesn't Microsoft follow the lead of the (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23166142)

because Microsoft isn't as corrupt as the US Government... *ducks*

Re:Why doesn't Microsoft follow the lead of the (1)

malchus842 (741252) | more than 5 years ago | (#23167158)

Something about a previous finding against them in court. You know, the monopoly thing. If they get caught destroying evidence, people are going to jail. Not something at the top of Steve Balmers list, I suspect.

Re:Why doesn't Microsoft follow the lead of the (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23167358)

Whitehouse/Government and just "lose" emails?:)
Er, didn't BAT (the tobacco company) do exactly that so the judge ruled in a light favorable to the other side?

In other words, delete evidence and the judge will assume it says whatever's most damaging to you.

Appeal? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23165902)

Microsoft lost its appeal many years ago. This is news?

Microsoft not so tech savvy! (1)

v(*_*)vvvv (233078) | more than 5 years ago | (#23165930)

new disclosures of insider e-mails, which could "jeopardize Microsoft's goodwill" and "disrupt Microsoft's relationships with its business partners.
LOL. What is microsoft doing that we aren't aware of already? Let alone its business partners!

It would be funny if microsoft abandoned email all together and resorted to paper and ink and barn fires for all their communications.

On the other hand, I am surprised that the White House did a better job of destroying emails that were suppose to be open, compared to these internal emails at Microsoft that were suppose to be proprietary!

Jeopardizing Goodwill? (1)

NorbrookC (674063) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166094)

FTA: The company argued that continuing the lawsuit might mean new disclosures of insider e-mails, which could "jeopardize Microsoft's goodwill" and "disrupt Microsoft's relationships with its business partners."

I think that what jeopardized their "goodwill" more than anything was their decision to actually release Vista! A bloated OS, that required major hardware upgrades, along with poor compatibility with many mission-critical software applications, and strong-arm marketing to attempt to force it on people. It's surprising that they think they have any goodwill left!

9th Circuit most often overturned. (4, Interesting)

Coolhand2120 (1001761) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166098)

Don't get too excited the 9th Circuit court of appeals is the most often overturned court int he land. Maybe because they don't actually take the LAW into account when making their decisions. http://www.centerforindividualfreedom.org/legal/9th_circuit.htm [centerfori...reedom.org]

Re:9th Circuit most often overturned. (1)

Hemogoblin (982564) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166384)

I skimmed that link, and I wasn't particularly moved. Getting offtopic, but where did the term "activist judges" come from? Judge's have always had the ability to make law, dating back to the founding of the common law system. Why are people surprised by this?

Re:9th Circuit most often overturned. (2, Insightful)

Coolhand2120 (1001761) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166708)

I'm not sure what country you live in, but in the U.S.A., judges are supposed to interpret the law, not make the law. Legislators are the law makers and the judges are the interpreters. An "activist judge" is someone who interprets the law to favour their own political ideology or other agenda.

I'm actually quite surprised that people didn't know that there is a difference between a law maker and a judge. Judges are sworn to upload the constitution of the state and the laws of the state, as for the federal judges they are sworn to uphold the constitution of the country and the laws of the country.

Just the fact that people obviously think that judges make laws show how easy it is to have "activist judges". I wonder how many other people are ignorant of our system of checks and balances.

Take a gander at this links. http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/legalotln/ [state.gov]

"Courts are central to the legal system, but they are not the entire system. Every day across America, federal, state, and local courts interpret laws, adjudicate disputes under laws, and at times even strike down laws as violating the fundamental protections that the Constitution guarantees all Americans."


The only time a judge may outright ignore a law is if he/she views it as being unconstitutional. Judges MUST uphold the law even if they think it's immoral or wrong. Now show me where it says judges MAKE laws in the U.S.

Re:9th Circuit most often overturned. (2, Insightful)

Hemogoblin (982564) | more than 5 years ago | (#23167170)

I think you're the one who is confused. I suggest reading the Wikipedia article on the Common Law system [wikipedia.org] as a starting point.

Now show me where it says judges MAKE laws in the U.S.
All of Tort law and partnership law for one. There's more too.

Bear in mind, this is the "Ninth" (2, Insightful)

humphrm (18130) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166404)

As with any controversial decision coming from the 9th Circuit, take it with a grain of salt until it passes the next appeal level.

Minimum Requirements are MINIMUM requirements (3, Informative)

CannonballHead (842625) | more than 5 years ago | (#23166894)

I really don't understand the minimum requirements. If you play Crysis with a computer that matched the "minimum requirements" list you'd ... well, the program would RUN. And Vista RUNS. What exactly does a minimum requirement specify then? As far as I understand, it's what is actually required to run the actual program, not even necessarily run it enough to work with it well. I don't like Vista even though I generally tend to be on the defend-XP side - but really, the double standard between minimum requirements for Microsoft and minimum requirements for any other product is frustrating. But then, any anti-Microsoft comment on Slashdot typically gets modded up as insightful or interesting, even if it's redundant. And, by the way, having everyone switch to Linux won't help that much. Linux is easy for computer nerds/techies to use. Windows is a ton easier for a lot of people, and it's not just what you're used to, it's getting your wireless card, sound card, or video card to work right. Windows does it, Linux doesn't always. :)

Re:Minimum Requirements are MINIMUM requirements (1)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 5 years ago | (#23167002)

Minimum requirements are the specs you need to run the software at the lowest usable level. Both Windows Vista and Crysis will run with less hardware than specified on the box as 'minimum requirements'.

With Crysis, if you have the recommended requirements, the software performs reasonably well.

With Vista, if you have the recommended requirements, it still runs like most people would expect it to run if you just had the minimum requirements. I.E. It runs like crap with the recommended requirements unless you turn more stuff off.
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