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Why OpenSolaris Failed To Build a Community

Soulskill posted more than 6 years ago | from the diverging-interests dept.

Operating Systems 280

xtaski writes "Ted Ts'o, one of the earliest Linux developers, points out some serious flaws in OpenSolaris. There is a severe lack of developers, for one. Apparently, after 3 years, the OpenSolaris 'developer community' is still struggling to get the proper tools for developers to develop! Ted also points out some other flaws which make it clear just how disconnected the executives at Sun are from what's really going on in their 'open source communities.' He notes, 'It was never ... Sun's intention to try to promote a kernel engineering community, or at least, it was certainly not a high priority for them to do so.'"

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280 comments

mirror (4, Informative)

asv108 (141455) | more than 6 years ago | (#23186982)

Re:mirror (5, Informative)

tytso (63275) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187226)

Yeah, sorry about that. Thunk.org is a rather ancient machine (> 5 years old) living in a colo facility, and this is how I figured out I had been slashdotted. (The two uptime commands were about two minutes apart):

    14:21:06 up 121 days, 16:47, 2 users, load average: 40.47, 12.41, 4.55
    14:23:05 up 121 days, 16:49, 2 users, load average: 81.43, 36.97, 14.52

  Fortuantely I'm still mirroring my blog onto my old Livejournal account; please read it there for now! The two articles that you want are this one: What Sun was trying to do with Open Solaris and this one: [livejournal.com] Organic vs. Non-organic Open Source [livejournal.com] , if you can't get through to thunk.org.

Re:mirror (4, Funny)

tytso (63275) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187644)

Not so ancient Chinese saying: "It is not enough to install wp-cache2 and activate the plugin; you must go to options->wp-cache and press then "enable" button to REALLY enable wp-cache."

Doh!

(Once I actually really enabled wp-cache, my server seems to have been able to keep up, for now...)

Re:mirror (1)

mrsteveman1 (1010381) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188132)

I've never seen the load on a Linux machine rise above like 6, and by then its unresponsive to anything.

How's it get up to 80?

Re:mirror (3, Interesting)

tytso (63275) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188678)

How's it get up to 80?
Lots and lots of apache daemons. :-)

I've never seen the load on a Linux machine rise above like 6, and by then its unresponsive to anything.
I was disk-bound, because wp-cache wasn't enabled even though it should have been, so it didn't take me that long to recover once I managed to run shutdown the apache server. Then it was just a matter of setting up a firewall rule to only allow access from my home IP address, restarting the server, figuring out that I needed to enable the wp-cache plugin, then remove the firewall rule, and pray.... :-)

But yeah, I was pretty impressed that my 1 GHz Pentium III with only 512 megs of memory running 2.6.16 linux was able to not only survive, but recover from a slashdotting without needing to reboot. If I had only checked earlier to make sure that wp-cache really was enabled, but as the old saying goes, "no one expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

Re:mirror (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23188694)

I've never seen the load on a Linux machine rise above like 6, and by then its unresponsive to anything. How's it get up to 80?


It's a dual processor SPARCstation 20 [wikipedia.org] . :-)

Re:mirror (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23188692)

I was really following along with you until you did the "kiss a girl" quote. I followed the link and noticed the email is from 1996. That sort of destroyed your credibility about the OpenSolaris development right there.

The answer is pretty simple. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23187036)

Frist psot!

Severe lack of...interest? (1, Funny)

digitaldc (879047) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187060)

...serious flaws in OpenSolaris. There is a severe lack of developers, for one. Apparently, after 3 years, the OpenSolaris 'developer community' is still struggling to get the proper tools for developers to develop!

No developers or any tools?
At least we won't have to blame another Solaris bomb on George Clooney this time.

Re:Severe lack of...interest? (1)

hercubus (755805) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187788)

...serious flaws in OpenSolaris. There is a severe lack of developers, for one. Apparently, after 3 years, the OpenSolaris 'developer community' is still struggling to get the proper tools for developers to develop! No developers or any tools? At least we won't have to blame another Solaris bomb on George Clooney this time.

okay, you were going for the joke. but to quote Mr. Lem's Website:

Soderbergh's movie belongs to the category of ambitious, artistic cinema - difficult to crack for the mass audience used to Hollywood pap.

Re:Severe lack of...interest? (1)

mrsteveman1 (1010381) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188162)

There are plenty of tools, just not the kind you are thinking of. These tools have proper names that must be capitalized.

For those too lazy too read the article: (5, Insightful)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187074)

The answer is: "They acted like a bunch of dicks."

OSS is a labor of love. You've got to want to work on the project, and you've got to be able to work on the project.

If you put a big chunk of your time into something and get rudely dismissed, then its hardly likely that you'll continue to contribute.

Not welcoming your Scott McNealy overlord? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23187250)

Be careful who you get into bed with, Lunix FOSSies. That's the lesson here.

But will you continue encouraging IBM to buy up the Lunix community? It's funny how explicit the trust of IBM is, when they were the big oppressive monopoly before, and worse than, Microsoft... and will be again if they can.

Zealots like Richard Stallman are just using the GPL and open source to help IBM seize control of all software everywhere. It's kind of hilarious the FOSSie community joyously follows the plan just so they can "stick it" to Microsoft. Pretty damn short sighted, IMO.

Re:Not welcoming your Scott McNealy overlord? (1)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187432)

Agree. One of my biggest problems with GPL v.3 is the rule to stop TiVoization of GPL products, yet the made sure there was a loophole for IBM do the the same thing. It really setup up a double standard, which is very scarry, it is one of those "I beleave in free speach just as long as you say I want to hear" type of thing. If you want IBM to be your friend then you need to allow TiVoization to continue, or if you really don't like TiVoization then IBM should choose wether they should go the FOSS route or not. But what we have now is a double standard. If you are a big supporter then the rules will fit you, if you are not a big supporter then you should punished for your lack of support.

Re:Not welcoming your Scott McNealy overlord? (1)

mrsteveman1 (1010381) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188202)

The Tivo stuff is a problem because FSF thinks they can use the license to force a company to change.

That company will not change though, they will quit using the software if thats the only option.

Re:Not welcoming your Scott McNealy overlord? (5, Insightful)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187446)

Actually, no.

The lesson here is: If you're going to try to court people active in OSS development, then you're going to have to be nice to them, and you're going to have to let them take some ownership.

IBM is being smart; they're reaping rewards far in excess of their investment. Effectively they've outsourced their development, and while the terms of the "outsourcing" say that they have to share everything that comes out of the project, they're still in a position to steer, and support the product.

I'm not sure how you equate that with "control"; sounds just like more FUD to me.

Re:Not welcoming your Scott McNealy overlord? (-1, Flamebait)

moderatorrater (1095745) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187986)

The lesson here is: If you're going to try to court people active in OSS development, then you're going to have to be nice to them, and you're going to have to let them take some ownership.
And not doing that is being a dick. Sun's open license isn't compatible with the most popular OSS license in the world. They don't have good follow through on opening things up and they generally just aren't that good to work with if you're trying to be, well, open. OpenOffice.org is one big exception to this, but the closing of part of mysql's source is just as big an indicator that they're not committed to being open.

From the small amount I've dealt with them, it seems like they're trying to gather an open source community without being truly open themselves, ie keeping some things proprietary so they can keep earning money from them. They're trying to have their cake and eat it, too.

Re:Not welcoming your Scott McNealy overlord? (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23188180)

"closing of part of mysql's source is just as big an indicator that they're not committed to being open."

You have that story all wrong. Nothing that previously was opensource is closing. MySQL has released open and closed-source products forever. The decision to make a native backup driver and compression/encryption as plugins to the open/public API had nothing to do with Sun's management. That was decided by MySQL prior to the acquisition.

There is 0 change there. It's an indicator of business as usual for MySQL.

Re:Not welcoming your Scott McNealy overlord? (0, Troll)

postbigbang (761081) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187706)

Sticking it to Microsoft is just a side-benefit of opening up source and using 'free' licensing schemes to get things moving. You should be in politics. I hear there's a huge void left when Karl Rove left.

Re:For those too lazy too read the article: (1)

bsDaemon (87307) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187464)

Well, there must have been some serious misthinking involved in this endevour. Its not as if Sun is alien to open source of free software ideas, having been cofounded by Bill Joy, who started the whole BSD thing, wrote Vi, etc.

Sun should have been able to do this right. Frankly, I think that it might have a lot more to do with Linux having already been solidly entrenched by the time they got around to putting OpenSolaris out -- sort of like how Free/Net/OpenBSD now lurk in the shadows, despite whatever technical merit they have compared to Linux.

We already have a free SysV UNIX and that is Linux. Open Solaris is trying to solve a problem no one really had -- but I suspect that it does help out a good bit those who have to administer the systems to be able to see everything inside of them.

There is just really no compelling reason for us to pick it up when we already have everything we want.

At least they seem to be finding their footing again with the news of making Java free software yesterday. There is reason to hope that things might get better.

For all you snobs that didn't read the post above. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23187492)

Solaris failed because it had no porn value. You see, the most popular version of Linux is GNU/Lesbian. You can get it here --> http://lesbian.mine.nu/ [lesbian.mine.nu]

If your OS is not popular yet, then I have some Lesbian Strapon Porno to show to you.

Wait (2, Funny)

ISoldat53 (977164) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187878)

Sun has an OpenSolaris?

Re:For those too lazy too read the article: (5, Interesting)

JerkBoB (7130) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188536)

Speaking as someone on the inside -- you're right. There are a lot of big egos here.

I didn't come to Sun because I like the Kool-Aid, I came by acquisition. I haven't decided yet whether or not this whole "we love Open Source" thing Jonathan keeps plugging is real or a charade. I'm optimistic, but we'll see.

On better days, I like to think that the people way up at the helm really "get it" and are just waiting for the rest of the ship to slowly (slowly!) turn. On not-so-good days, I start to wonder if maybe someone's trying to pull a fast one.

There are lots and lots of people here who really and truly believe that Linux is just an upgrade path to Solaris. In other words... Once people start running Linux on Sun hardware, they'll "want more", and "step into the big league" with Solaris. It's kind of sad, when it's not irritating.

Anyhow... I could bitch for a while, but I won't.

Re:For those too lazy too read the article: (1)

devjj (956776) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188638)

This isn't specific to OSS, obviously. Apple dismissed (arguably rudely, given how poorly worded the rejection email was) many would-be iPhone developers. Who wants to invest time into a platform with no guarantee when or even if you'll be able to sell your product?

Bureaucracy (5, Informative)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187116)

I think Sun underestimated the importance of casual users. A lot of times the people choosing an OS for a project (be it enterprise deployment, inclusion with hardware, or just use within IT) go with what they are familiar with and also what their current interests are. When Sun open sourced Solaris, there was a lot of interest from the Linux and BSD communities. A lot of those people decided to download a copy and give it a try. The difficulty these casual users had in grabbing an installable copy and getting it running easily were significant. A lot of people just said, "meh" and moved on. The last time I grabbed a developer preview I still had to fill out a bunch of forms with my personal data then deal with Sun's "download manager" and then spend significant time getting it to install, even within a VM customized to run OpenSolaris in particular. That is still better than it used to be. I only have a success rate of about 50% in getting Solaris to install to date.

For most people I think it is just too much of a hassle and all the developer momentum is on Linux. I guess when Sun thinks about open sourcing Solaris, they see it as a way to try to stop their hardware customers from moving away from Sun, which is fine, but does little to leverage the real benefits of an OSS community such as Linux has been doing for a long time.

Download barriers (5, Insightful)

SgtChaireBourne (457691) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187508)

Downloading is a royal PITA. The registration is usually a deal-breaker. Almost nothing I've ever run across that's worth anything requires registration for download. However, as a (former) long-time Solaris / SunOS user and major FOSS user, I felt compelled several times to try to circumvent that. But then there's no real way do a network install and othewise week download choice.

That gripe aside, the article is a bit premature. Though time is running out and it could become true if Sun decides to keep downloads off of anonymous FTP, AFS and Bittorrent.

Re:Download barriers (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23188296)

That gripe aside, the article is a bit premature. Though time is running out and it could become true if Sun decides to keep downloads off of anonymous FTP, AFS and Bittorrent.
I agree with that last bit, the article is way immature and innacurate.

If you read the comments of one of the blogs cited, you will see OpenSolaris members clearing up the situation and showing how she was a bit hasty in her comments. At least that's my opinion.

Like signing and NDA for a OpenSolaris User Group meeting. Turns out, even by the blogger's own statement that The NDA was for confidential information in case for instance something got left behind in the meeting room. Since OpenSolaris related information is obviously not "confidential" I don't see the big deal. But if shee happens to notice a binder labeled "x5500 new petabyte server runs on 2watts and this is how we do it" then that would be covered by the NDA. From the comments it seems that this is not uncommon when using corporate/government facilities though it is not always the case. Simon Phipps also seems to be eager to get it resolved.

There were some other issues as well. The funniest is that the original governing body that Sun set up to run the project in the period before the community had a chance to elect their own members was mostly composed of non-Sun employees, but when the community actually elected their own board members, it was mostly Sun employees.

The trademark issues might be a different matter and I can't really comment on them but it sounds like something that should be resolved.

I think this guy is just yelling "the sky is falling" because he wants it to.

I though it was just because it sucks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23187174)

OpenSolaris is seriously convoluted as far as modern UNIX systems go. It's like a throwback to the early 90's when everything was a pain in the ass.

On top of that everything has been Javafied and sucks up resources like nothing else. I installed it on an old Blade that I have and it literally took 2 whole days to run the security updates because it was thrashing the machine so hard.

Re:I though it was just because it sucks (-1, Flamebait)

sethmeisterg (603174) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187738)

Please mod parent down as flamebait.

Re:I though it was just because it sucks (2, Interesting)

harry666t (1062422) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188212)

Why? Last time I tried to install Solaris 10, I couldn't do it in graphical mode because it needed at least 400 (not 384, installer said 400) megabytes of RAM. And even with 256 megs the full install (something like 5 GB of stuff on one DVD)... It took around 8 hours. Damnit, it's just a few gigs of data to be copied from a disc to a hard drive, and then (possibly) set up a little... About 8 hours just to copy some data from one place to another. Even after that, Solaris was slow like a... Vista of some kind. Booting the system took 4 or 5 minutes (compared to Linux on the same machine: 30 seconds? Something like that). When I got the DVD burned I was really excited, since I heard many good words about the OS and stuff, but after trying it out I was just... Really disappointed with its hogginess. Not to mention crappy userland (very old Gnome, no VTs, many minor annoyances, the way stuff is organized within the file system is a total mess...). I really see no real gain from choosing Solaris over Linux (except if you just LOVE the CDE).

Re:I though it was just because it sucks (2, Insightful)

rumith (983060) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188430)

There is some truth in GP's words. While Solaris is full of great ideas, and most of them are pretty well implemented, one must admit that the native userland hardly differs from what it has been in early '90s. Of course, the GNU environment is available, but it hasn't replaced the default one so far. Once that happens, I expect Solaris user base to boost.

OpenWatcom (1)

optikos (1187213) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187192)

perhaps for many of the same reasons that OpenWatcom it not yet a serious competitor to the GNU Compiler Collection

OpenSolaris fails to build community b/c it sucks (5, Insightful)

Jeffrey Baker (6191) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187200)

You have to have a good product before you can have a community. Linux built its early community based on tinkerers and hackers who found it easy to play with. Early Linux distributions, you may recall, were all inclined to integrate well with DOS. Some of them could even be installed _in_ DOS. You could install Slackware and be up and running with an editor and compiler in half an hour. OpenSolaris doesn't follow this example. Using it is a tremendous pain in the ass. Its installer runs for 2-4 hours on the midrange PCs I've tried to install it upon. Once it's "installed" you still have to grope around trying to find familiar tools, which are maybe under UCB or perhaps under GNU subdirectories. It's hard to download software from the 'net and ./configure it. Hardware support is very thin.

To get a hacker community, you have to offer fun. OpenSolaris is simply not fun. It reminds me of work.

Re:OpenSolaris fails to build community b/c it suc (4, Interesting)

Hatta (162192) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187338)

How are the GNU distros built on the opensolaris kernel though? I'm thinking of Nexenta [nexenta.org] specifically. Seems like it would be the best of both worlds if done right. World class UNIX kernel + world class userland utils. But then if it's just thrown together, it could suck too.

Re:OpenSolaris fails to build community b/c it suc (5, Informative)

dotwaffle (610149) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187676)

Nexenta works fantastically - I love it. I would definitely use it for any storage servers, or high availability servers that do your normal Apache/SQL/P* stack.

However, for desktop and non-standard services, it still sucks. If it's not a web server, and it's not a storage server, don't use Nexenta, use Ubuntu Server. Or Debian if you know what you're doing :)

Linux community (2, Informative)

bobs666 (146801) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187350)

Linux had a community. It was the Minux community that was starting to had problems with patches. Since the base code had a bad copyright, and thus could not be freely transmitted. And patching patches or still more patches just got out of hand. The GPL that Linux used ended all that and allowed Linux to take off.

Re:OpenSolaris fails to build community b/c it suc (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23187490)

You have no idea what's coming with Project Indiana. Installs are vastly faster, and the product is much, much better. Take a look once it's released in May.

Re:OpenSolaris fails to build community b/c it suc (1)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187642)

What's it going to do that's better than what I've already got with Kubuntu?

Re:OpenSolaris fails to build community b/c it suc (1)

Jeffrey Baker (6191) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188076)

I'm looking forward to it. I like to give OpenSolaris a spin because ZFS isn't bad at all. If the default shell isn't shockingly unusable, I'll be happier than I was with Nevada.

Re:OpenSolaris fails to build community b/c it suc (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23188554)

The default shell is bash. At least for users. The default shell for root is the bourne shell sh. From what I've read I believe you can change the default shell for root to what you want without any problems. If I remember correctly this has been possible since at least Solaris 2.8. Somehow they set it up so that /sbin/sh gets loaded during automated tasks when necessary but when you log in as root you get the bash shell if I understood it correctly.

The reason is that sh will always be available, for example even in failsafe mode while bash cannot be guaranteed.

Though if you're logging into root all the time you might really want to rethink your security policy.

Re:OpenSolaris fails to build community b/c it suc (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23188316)

I've used various builds of Project Indiana and I haven't been all that impressed. ZFS and dtrace are still the only big features that I'm interested in, and hardware support is still so far behind Linux and FreeBSD that I wouldn't make the switch for them. Most of the improvements have been focused on fixing deficiencies in Solaris and its archaic tools and don't really provide any incentive to make the switch from Linux or FreeBSD.

Re:OpenSolaris fails to build community b/c it suc (1)

thsths (31372) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187628)

> Using it is a tremendous pain in the ass.

I agree. The structure may be close to the "original" UNIX, but where is all the comfort you are used to from any Linux distro off the shelf? The command line is positively hostile, unless you hunt down and install all the typical Linux tools. And on the GUI front things are not much better. It makes a certain kind of sense to write everything in Java, but unfortunately it is horribly slow, ugly and often difficult to use.

Solaris can be a nice system, but by the time you have added all the missing bits, it is hardly different from a normal Linux system.

Re:OpenSolaris fails to build community b/c it suc (2, Informative)

FrozenFOXX (1048276) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188352)

I have to admit that I feel the same way. Oh sure, there are some nice things (Solaris Volume Manager, once you get the hang of it, is actually not bad though I still have some gripes), but on the whole it ends up feeling like I have to go and reinvent Linux from scratch just to get the system working like I think it should.

Good thing I used to run Gentoo otherwise that kind of thing might actually tick me off. ;)

Re:OpenSolaris fails to build community b/c it suc (2, Informative)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187678)

Not only that, but many people will simply ask "why?" There are already several fabulous free/open source software communities gathered around several fabulous free/open source operating systems, each having its own niche:

  • - Linux, which is geared around being the UNIX-like Swiss Army Knife OS for PC people, built around good hardware support and solid application support.
  • - FreeBSD, which is geared around bringing genetic UNIX on a PC (note the not-entirely-semantical difference), which aims for pretty good hardware support and concentrates on being the best UNIX it can for the PC, built around being a good, solid, tested and stable server software
  • - OpenBSD, which aims to be the most secure OS on the face of the planet, built around solid, stable security mechanisms
  • - NetBSD -- Well, nobody really knows what NetBSD is about except for those nutty NetBSD people ;)
  • - ReactOS, which aims to be a complete free/open source Windows replacement OS
  • Haiku and co., which are aimed at reviving the BeOS community


So where does OpenSolaris fit in? It seems to be an OS lacking a niche.

Re:OpenSolaris fails to build community b/c it suc (5, Insightful)

thsths (31372) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187970)

> So where does OpenSolaris fit in? It seems to be an OS lacking a niche.

The niche for OpenSolaris is the 64way mission-critical server. Unfortunately, even ultimate kernel hacking enthusiasts rarely have one of those at home.

Re:OpenSolaris fails to build community b/c it suc (4, Interesting)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188626)

Meh. Having been a Solaris, HP-UX and AIX admin, IMHO, there is no better OS for high availability and high scalability than AIX. Solaris is okay, but it's not any better than Linux in that regard. Moreso now that most of the AIX code that counts for HA and HPC are included in the Linux kernel thanks to IBM. ;) In fact, one might (easily) argue that Linux is rather better than Solaris in the clustering department.

Re:OpenSolaris fails to build community b/c it suc (1)

jandrese (485) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188040)

NetBSD is for people who want to install Unix on their Ukranian made MIPS powered PDA like device.

OpenSolaris was supposed to be for people who really like Solaris but don't much care for official support or something. I've only ever used it once, for a precompiled application that was built on it. It's not really that bad to configure although it did require several trips to google to get everything set up properly. My subjective opinion was that it was kinda slow for the hardware we were running it on.

Re:OpenSolaris fails to build community b/c it suc (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23188116)

Dude! Install early Slackware in 30 minutes? Surely you jest! Slackware was better than the other distributions (SLS, Yggdrasil) but you still needed to be Unix proficient and fix lots of small things. I set up a bunch of Slackware systems in the early/mid 90s, I know.

OpenSolaris installation today is about where Linux was with early RedHat -- a lot of the time it installs without a problem, but it's a crapshoot whether all your hardware will work. And if you have a somewhat non-mainstream motherboard you're hosed.

I know what you mean about Solaris not being fun. I'm a zealot from way back, I loved SunOS 4.1 which was a true Unix and fun to use. Solaris2 was a big drag and was basically unusable till 2.5 or so, and very un-fun. The upcoming version brings back a lot of that hacking fun: all the usual Gnu tools available, compilers included, better hardware support, etc. etc. And the installer is much better.

When you think about ZFS and DTrace, Solaris today blows everything else away. But it will never catch up with Linux/FreeBSD, for the same reason that Linux will never catch up with OS X (or That Other OS) -- non-technical reasons like network effects. And that's OK, more good OSs are always welcome, choice never killed anybody. (Now if we could just get rid of that one really crappy OS....)

(Posting anonymously because I work at Sun.)

Installation problems as well (5, Informative)

gearloos (816828) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187218)

Another issue with opensolaris for me was the installation. Being a fairly experienced *nix user, years of sunos, aix, linux, bsd, etc.. under my belt and a fairly competent programmer. I tried quite a few times to install OpenSolaris and there was always some major problem. I never did get a stable system working and finally gave up. That said, this all comes as no surprise to me whatsoever.

Re:Installation problems as well (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23188278)

use nexenta. Debian installation!

I didnt bother. (0, Offtopic)

Creepy Crawler (680178) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187326)

I tried to download it. Well, it wants all your information, which I wasnt even going to jump through their hoops.. After all, Debian, Ubuntu, Redhat and the rest dont make you do this.

And the hardware support sucks, even for a virtualized environment.

Simply said, Linux works better than Windows, and I enjoy it more. Better hardware support, better fun apps, and things Just Work.

Re:I didnt bother. (1)

marcosdumay (620877) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188134)

Simply said, Linux works better than Windows

We are still at an Open Solaris thread, aren't we?

Re:I didnt bother. (0, Offtopic)

Creepy Crawler (680178) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188222)

Yes, and MSWindows is posix compliant.

Do you think that OpenSolaris lives in isolation from everything else? Hardware support on it stinks. Windows is better, yet even Linux trumps Windows.

Hmmm - Linux Fan Boys speak out.... (5, Interesting)

GuyverDH (232921) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187354)

The OpenSolaris development community is alive and well, vibrant and resourcefull.
There have been a lot of great development work on OpenSolaris in both the x86/x64 and SPARC worlds.

OpenSolaris (much like it's big brother Solaris) does have a list of valid / tested hardware platforms that work out of the box without issue.

If your specific hardware isn't listed and it's fairly well mainstream, document what didn't work, submit it, and it will more than likely get fixed.

I've used OpenSolaris on IBM/Lenovo thinkpads, IBM xServer hardware, SuperMicro / Intel hardware, homebrew systems with rarely an issue.

I've enjoyed the support of the OpenSolaris community as a whole, and found them to be as resourceful as any *inux / bsd community.

It all depends on what you like / want.

For me, gaining the ability to work with Solaris during development cycles to help in some small way guide / assist with the efforts is worthwhile.

Re:Hmmm - Linux Fan Boys speak out.... (4, Insightful)

keithjr (1091829) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187436)

As it turns out, Linux development community members are critical of competing operating systems. How is this news?

The point of picking and choosing your operating system is so that you can pick the best tool for the job. If that tool is Solaris, then use it. If not, so be it.

Since Sun actively develops Solaris (and thus parts of OpenSolaris), do they really need individual contributors?

Instant success (5, Insightful)

mooreti1 (1123363) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187396)

Yes, because Linux was such an instant success! Wait...no, it wasn't. Everyone forgets that any community, either real or virtual, takes time to build. I believe that counting OpenSolaris as a failed community is premature, at the least.

Re:Instant success (1)

realmolo (574068) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187550)

It's not premature at all.

Linux wasn't an overnight success, that's true. But it's a success *now*. OpenSolaris needs to do everything Linux does, but better. Until it can do that, no one will bother with it. The problem being, of course, that if no one bothers with it, it will NEVER be better than Linux. So, yeah, it's dead. Everyone but Sun knew this would happen.

It's the same issue that prevents any truly *new* operating systems from gaining traction. Simply being *technically* better doesn't mean shit. You have to have wide-ranging hardware support, and all the apps that people are used to using.

Re:Instant success (1)

sethmeisterg (603174) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187842)

Wow, so you're agreeing with the parent, but then disagreeing. You can't have it both ways. "If no one bothers, then..." -- come on, dude. Let's cut 'em some slack, huh? Why are you so militantly opposed to the possiblity of OpenSolaris success? Ask yourself that.

Re:Instant success (1)

postbigbang (761081) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187850)

You hit the nail on the head.

Linux drivers, sucky as they can be, are still chugging along because there are hackers that want to make things work. Sun sells hardware, and they have a hardware maker's mentality that the software just sells the hardware, folks. That's partly why they went 'open' in the first place-- but it was a lame attempt at building a community that McNealy couldn't stomach and Schwartz pays lip service to. It's all about shareholder equity-- make no mistake about this. Sun couldn't figure out how to make Java open? No, it's just they put the openness change through so slowly that it didn't really matter. It was lip service. Open Solaris isn't like OpenSUSE or Fedora or CentOS; these non-supported version have traction now where OpenSolaris doesn't and can't get any respect. Yes, it's nice, solid, Unix, and it has no wind in its sails/sales, so as a non-revenue producer, it gets no attention at Sun. Sun hasn't figured out how to make FOSS revenues, unlike numerous other organizations. Buying MySQL didn't give them much of a clue, now that closed-source details are starting to emerge regarding MySQL. They don't get it, and as long as it doesn't have an ecosystem to produce revenues, they never will.

Re:Instant success (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23187638)

Yes, because Linux was such an instant success! Wait...no, it wasn't. Everyone forgets that any community, either real or virtual, takes time to build. I believe that counting OpenSolaris as a failed community is premature, at the least.
"Maybe it will be someday, as some Sun executives have claimed, but itâ(TM)s definitely not a priority by Sun"

Who said that has failed? It _is_ failling.

Re:Instant success (1)

quanticle (843097) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187770)

Well, the community may not be a failure yet, but if Sun continues being recalcitrant in providing dev tools (like a proper code repository) the community may very well decide that OpenSolaris isn't worth the potential benefits and move on to other projects.

Re:Instant success (3, Insightful)

nrozema (317031) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188320)

I guess success vs. failure comes down to what your initial expectations were.

If you were looking for Yet Another Open Source Linux Replacement, and have failed to receive it from a barely four year old project, then sure, I suppose to you that project has "failed".

If, like me, you saw OpenSolaris as a sandbox and open dialogue with the community to shape the next version of Solaris, and not a Linux replacement, then perhaps you aren't so disappointed at the moment.

The development of ZFS in particular has come a long way in later builds of OpenSolaris vs. what you'll find in Solaris 10. The previous development model would have seen that happen in a vacuum, without community interaction and contribution. That alone is a success in my mind.

A simple reason? (1)

tmk (712144) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187404)

Schily

Re:A simple reason? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23188004)

Damn, I was going to say this!
+1 Funny :>

Gnu/Solaris (3, Interesting)

obender (546976) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187406)

Licensing Solaris under the GPL might give it a chance and now is the time. Due to the GPL 2 vs 3 debate it has a good opportunity of becoming the second Gnu kernel.

Well it didn't exactly...WORK!?!??!?!! (1)

jjb3rd (1138577) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187448)

Yeah, I tried it, but it didn't work with SATA, this was like a year ago...hello? I'm a developer and I can't release something that won't install, or is complicated to install. Why should I waste a bunch of time in 2007 (at the time) on an OS that doesn't support SATA (*cough* Windows XP) out of the box? I was pissed I wasted my time downloading it.

Re:Well it didn't exactly...WORK!?!??!?!! (1)

sethmeisterg (603174) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187528)

What didn't work? What chipset? AHCI-based SATA support has been integrated for some time now and installs flawlessly on every system in my lab. For those of you with complaints about hardware support, you really need to take another look at Solaris -- new drivers are arriving monthly.

Re:Well it didn't exactly...WORK!?!??!?!! (1)

jjb3rd (1138577) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188174)

It would have been a nice el-cheapo MSI KM4AM-V with a VIA 8237 chipset. Despite your claim that it's been integrated for some time, I recall doing a little bit of research at the time and there not being good SATA support. I don't really care anymore...YAUV (Yet Another Unix Variant) doesn't it for me anymore. How many ways can we repackage an old OS (same is true for the rest of the OS lineup)? Let's really see some modern libraries that the OS and app developers can use alike. Ironically Microsoft does more in this arena than anyone else despite their refusal to ditch the Win32 API, or at least depricate it.

Stanislaw Lem had a Linux distro?! (1)

Smidge207 (1278042) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187450)

"There are some places man is not ready to go..."

Support Some Hardware? (1)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187452)

How coincidental - I've just spent an hour trying to find out what would be the best card to use to support a bunch of SATA II/NCQ disks for a ZFS box based on OpenSolaris and I haven't come much closer to an answer. I decided to give up on it for a bit and read Slashdot for a few minutes...

Re:Support Some Hardware? (2, Informative)

sethmeisterg (603174) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187574)

Any AHCI-based SATA controller will work. Marvell-based SATA controllers (models 88SX5081, 88SX5080, 88SX5040, 88SX5041, 88SX6081, and 88SX6041), nvidia nforce sata, silicon image 3124. AHCI and Marvell are good choices. There's also a ton of SAS support (e.g. LSI, Adaptec).

of course not (5, Insightful)

nguy (1207026) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187460)

OpenSolaris was an attempt by Sun to throw some sand in the gears of Linux, not to build an open source project. They are doing the same thing with OpenJava.

I mean, who is going to contribute to such a project if (1) Sun engineers keep calling the shots, and (2) anything you contribute needs to be given to Sun so that they can sell it to paying customers?

If Sun were serious about making Solaris and Java open source projects, they'd release them under a single, open source license only. That would probably have to be BSD.

And why not? Solaris was BSD licensed to begin with; it was Sun that made it proprietary.

Re:of course not (1)

guacamole (24270) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187668)

Solaris >=2 is based on SunOS 5 which was derived from closed source system v.

SunOS 4 was indeed based on some kind of BSD, but got killed by Solaris 2 long time ago

Re:of course not (2, Informative)

nguy (1207026) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187940)

Solaris >=2 is based on SunOS 5 which was derived from closed source system v. SunOS 4 was indeed based on some kind of BSD, but got killed by Solaris 2 long time ago

Solaris >=2 still contains plenty of BSD code. Furthermore, System V contains stuff derived from Berkeley as well.

Without BSD, Sun wouldn't even exist.

Re:of course not (1)

Anarke_Incarnate (733529) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187968)

A consistent naming scheme would be nice. Having it live in both the world of 2.5, 2.6, 2.7, 2.8...etc and 5.7, 5.8, 5.9, and 5.10 is silly for the time it takes to explain to management

Re:of course not (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23187674)

It's a shame that you didn't spend enough time understanding how the OpenSolaris community actually works. While it's true that contributions are given back to Sun, they are also part of OpenSolaris, which you're free to make distributions of and sell YOURSELF to make money. Everyone benefits. How fair would it be if Sun couldn't use the open source software that you wrote? Sounds like a double standard to me. As far as I know, the only reason Sun engineers were involved was to ensure that contributions at the earliest stages were of good form and wouldn't hose the kernel when integrated, not to mention the fact that there's still work underway to allow contributors to put back to the source repository directly. I don't think there's any evil going on -- just growing pains due to the early age of the community.

Re:of course not (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23188176)

While it's true that contributions are given back to Sun, they are also part of OpenSolaris, which you're free to make distributions of and sell YOURSELF to make money.

Well, yes, except that I am forced to make my stuff open source, while Sun can ship my stuff any way they like.

How fair would it be if Sun couldn't use the open source software that you wrote? Sounds like a double standard to me.

That's bullshit. It is Sun that is creating the double standard.

If Sun accepted contributions under the GPL2/3 without copyright assignment, that would be fair.

Requiring contributions under the CDDL with copyright assignment creates the double standard. It's evil. And I'm glad to see that people aren't going for it.

Let's hope that Solaris dies a quick death under its own bloat. It should have been put out to pasture years ago.

Re:of course not (1)

GuyverDH (232921) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188250)

You don't pay for Solaris or OpenSolaris, you only pay for media, or support.

You don't even have to pay for minimal patch support. ie security / vulnerability / stability patches are freely available to registered users - without paying for a support contract. This is on their Enterprise Solaris product, not the OpenSolaris product.

Sun has the reigns to make certain that everything works and works well as they end up having to support it on their hardware (and other vendor's as well - Read IBM / Dell agreements).

What does RedHat do with the software written by the Fedora Core community?
Can you even download a copy of RedHat Enterprise Server and use it, with the ability to get patches for free? Last time I checked, you weren't allowed to do that - unless you count the CentOS project.

Re:of course not (1)

nguy (1207026) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188602)

Sun has the reigns to make certain that everything works

Yes, and that's the problem: Sun holds the reigns. Even if they were using that control well, it would be a problem. But Sun engineering and management doesn't know what they are doing, and that makes it worse. Of course, it doesn't matter for Solaris (who cares?), but Java has become so much a part of the computing infrastructure that Sun's continued screw-ups are a real problem.

Can you even download a copy of RedHat Enterprise Server and use it, with the ability to get patches for free? Last time I checked, you weren't allowed to do that - unless you count the CentOS project.

Who cares? The problem is not with companies making proprietary add-ons to open source software; if that was all Sun is doing (and they are doing plenty of that), I wouldn't complain.

The problem is with a company setting up projects such that they obtain special rights to contributions, and using tricks to retain control of projects that they should have lost long ago because of their incompetence.

Re:of course not (2, Informative)

GuyverDH (232921) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188668)

Incompetence?

Dtrace?
ZFS?
Zones / Containers?
Ultra SPARC T1, T2, T2+?

They took their source code and chip designs, opened it up with their version of opensource license, while keeping control of what gets put back into the distributions for the OpenSolaris and Solaris projects, and it's working - quite well.

If opensource were all on an even playing field, there would only be one opensource license.

Considering the numerous versions and variations, there's obviously some things that everyone just can't agree on for a licensing model.

Re:of course not (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23188544)

*chokes on sandwich*

They WHAT? You what? They who? Do what now?

Got some links to all of this where we can see it first hand? I've been following Sun's story and trying out Open Solaris a couple of times, but never knew any of this.

Reasons for this failure. (3, Insightful)

suck_burners_rice (1258684) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187470)

The disconnection between Sun's executives and the kernel developers might be one reason why OpenSolaris is failing to build a community, but I believe a much larger reason is the lack of any substantial need for OpenSolaris in the market at this point. Currently there is so much development around Linux and the BSDs that these projects fulfill most of the users' needs and offer people looking for an OS something quite compelling, with a developer community in the millions of knowledgeable people. OpenSolaris is first and foremost suffering the chicken-and-egg problem that since there isn't much of a developer community, nobody wants to join, and secondly, since Linux and the BSDs can carry out nearly all the functions that OpenSolaris carries out, there's no compelling need for developers to join that community. Let's face it, Sun should concentrate their efforts on improving Linux and selling distributions and support for their custom distribution. Part of this improvement would entail porting the few advantageous features that Solaris has over Linux currently. OpenSolaris would eventually be phased out completely. Otherwise, they are simply throwing good money after bad.

Because Solaris without Sparcs isn't that great? (1, Insightful)

Kenja (541830) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187558)

Only reason I ever used Solaris was for the Sparc hardware. Soon as Sun went Intel based, they where dead to me. Why spend more money for the same level of hardware when the OS has less support then Free(tm) options?

Re:Because Solaris without Sparcs isn't that great (2, Informative)

multipartmixed (163409) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187966)

You know, when Sun started shipping opteron hardware, the sparc stuff didn't vanish into thin air. It's still very much alive and well.

BTW, what white-box linux platform competes with, say, the Sun Fire X4500 + Solaris?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zQ5RLAyA7w [youtube.com]

Re:Because Solaris without Sparcs isn't that great (1)

Kenja (541830) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187992)

Its still around, but its not progressed much or sold with the same fervor. Its a dead platform it seems. Course I'd still recommend it for a massive database platform. Nothing says sexy like hot swappable CPUs.

Re:Because Solaris without Sparcs isn't that great (1)

Digi-John (692918) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188706)

Ooh, we just got one of those in the machine room. If it performs OK during the 60 day trial, I guess they're gonna buy a whole bunch of fully-loaded units.
It's a sexy, if heavy, machine.

Too easy to replace Solaris... (2, Interesting)

i_want_you_to_throw_ (559379) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187622)

We ran Solaris boxes at the government agency I worked for and it was easy as heck to just replace Solaris with RedHat. OpenSolaris = one more free *nix initiative in a world with too many free *nix initiatives as it is.

As a member of the community... (5, Insightful)

saleenS281 (859657) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187626)

I guess I disagree. I'm on several of the opensolaris mailing lists, and they're ALWAYS busy. And not just with people from Sun, people from all walks of life. To claim that opensolaris has failed is preposterous to me. I guess I don't quite understand what this mans idea of *success* is, but apparently having users and contributers from both sun and the public abroad isn't *success*.

Is his complaint that the majority of code comes directly from Sun? If so... let me just say *DUH*. If you have thousands of PAID programmers writing code, nobody is going to waste their free time re-writing from scratch. On the flip side, there's TONS of public side-projects, I can think of several around zfs like the automatic snapshots. Or maybe that little side project called nexenta.

I think I understand what his issue is... he doesn't even know what the opensolaris community is. By his definition, one distribution of linux is a measure if its success or failure. Last I checked, when we talk about linux, we're encompassing ubuntu, redhat, suse, slackware, etc, etc, etc... Guess what, the same holds true for Opensolaris.

So... basically, it sounds like a linux zealot casting a stone because he's most likely upset that Sun wont' release solaris under the GPL so that linux devs can start ripping code.

Re:As a member of the community... (4, Insightful)

tytso (63275) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188508)

Please let me make this clear. I was not disparaging Open Solaris as an operating system. And I was quoting Jon Plocher, a Sun Engineer working on Open Solaris, when he admitted that Sun didn't get the community they were hoping for. So it you can call it failure in terms of Sun being to get the results that it had hoped for when it released (most of) Solaris under an Open Source license. Other people who were major Solaris fans, and who were excited with whatever scraps Sun might throw from the table, might be mightly pleased with what Sun did. But nevertheless, it is interesting that Sun hasn't achieved what they hoped to accomplish with Open Solaris after three years.

The reason why I found Jon Plocher's candidate statement for the Open Solaris Governing Board so interesting was that it was first that I had seen someone from inside Sun comment about the what Sun had been hoping to achieve by release Solaris under a Open Source license that didn't appear influenced by Sun's marketing/spin machine. I don't believe Sun's officially stated reasons (that show up on the CEO's blog, for example) because after three years their words have not been matched by their deeds.

So for me, it's more about correcting the marketing spin. If Sun salescritters want to pay analysts to create Total Cost of Ownership white papers which compare the cost of the most expensive get-someone-on-the-phone 24x7 Red Hat support with a support-by-email Solaris support subscription, I might mock their desperation.

Similarly, if Jonathan Schwartz wants to talk about how wonderful it will be that Open Solaris is Open Source, and how they will reap the benefits of having Open Source developers, but three years later still have processes that result in 0.6 patches/day being accepted into Open Solaris, then I think it's only fair that to point out the chasm between his words and his company's actions.

Besides hard regulation; none where it counted! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23187640)

A whole different problem which I encountered myself several times is that everyone was allowed to spout of several amounts of FUD without ever being told that they did so. Worse yet; the stories sometimes never changed, but it /did/ have a nice "opensolaris" URL attached which has confused people numerous of times. A classic example right: here [opensolaris.org] .

I've seen several people rant about how it wasn't possible to tell (Open)Solaris not to automatically update the hostname and as such you had to change a whole lot of system scripts in order to get this behaviour. This specific (officially accepted so it seems) howto even described on several pages how to best approach the patching of the system scripts.

Total Madness! the only thing people had to do was to change /etc/default/dhcpagent. I've written the author, I've responded in an OpenSolaris forum that this approach is utter nonsense and I've even seen this URL pop up in a few newsgroups [google.nl] here and there.

And this is just one obvious example... For me it was enough to stop taking the whole thing seriously (note: I am a veteral Solaris admin & user). And something tells me I wasn't the only one...

Never received starter kit? (1)

truthsolo (519347) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187740)

Every starter kit I ordered (3) did not show up at my doorstep. When I questioned Sun, they said it was either at the post office (which it wasn't) or it was "lost in transit, feel free to order another kit at no cost." Cheers, thanks Sun.

Re:Never received starter kit? (1)

CapeBretonBarbarian (512565) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188044)

Every starter kit I ordered (3) did not show up at my doorstep. When I questioned Sun, they said it was either at the post office (which it wasn't) or it was "lost in transit, feel free to order another kit at no cost."

Cheers, thanks Sun.
That's strange, I've received every starter kit, or other free media package for Solaris or OpenSolaris I've ever requested. Where are you located? Perhaps they are having trouble with shipping to particular countries/districts.

Re:Never received starter kit? (1)

witherstaff (713820) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188392)

I'll second this. I never received mine either. I ordered two of them in the past 2 years and they just never showed up. While the most recent hardware I have is a sparc 10, it was still worth a shot to try it on. I know Michigan is the backwaters of technology, but our mail doesn't suck that badly.

My answer (2)

Archangel Michael (180766) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187782)

Too Little, Too Late.

There is no need for it now. Linux had already supplanted Solaris

OpenSolaris is a very young opensource initiative (4, Insightful)

blind biker (1066130) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187862)

Give it some time - it's still growing, and while there are some adjustments to be made, the situation is far from catastrophic for its stage of development. After all, there's a number of people contributing to it, and hopefully as processes and community contacts improve, the contributors will increase in number. You have to take into consideration that it's a huge chunk of code and some people are still just lurking to find their place under the sun (no pun intended).

OpenSolaris is an interesting operating system, I don't doubt it'll grow in popularity among developers, however slowly. As I said, give it some time, we have only just begun.

Linux Partisan Disparages Non-Linux OS (5, Insightful)

planetralph (944937) | more than 6 years ago | (#23187880)

This is news?

Yowsa (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23187934)

It seems Sun is screwing themselves, again, many times over.

-Wouldn't let the opensolaris board call the project opensolaris. Probably a legal quagmire of their own creation. The consequences of that lead to this resignation. http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2008-February/004488.html

-There's this gem, most of which I don't pretend to understand. The punchline is on the bottom. http://cryptnet.net/mirrors/texts/kissedagirl.html

-There's this gem, where even Ian Murdock links in suggesting the difficulty is happening above his level. http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/a-solution-for-suns-os-community-problems/#comment-17418

As much potential as Sun continues to exhibit, they still can't turn it into anything.

If I wanted Linux I'd use it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23188046)

Solaris is alive and well on both SPARC & x86 and this is a "failure"? On what planet? Have you stopped beating your significant other?

Thank God for Solaris. It's stable & reliable which is more than can be said for any of the many Linux distributions I've dealt with.

Contrary to what the Linux fan boys may think, having the system lockup is *not* acceptable *ever*. Linux may be better than Windows, but it's still got a long way to go.

One of the big problems w/ Linux is hordes of "kernel developers". I'd much rather have a few good engineers than an army of amateurs.

rhb

Copyright assignment (2)

diegocgteleline.es (653730) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188236)

In opensolaris (just like in openoffice) you need to give your copyright rights to Sun.

I can't imagine why anyone would want to take part of a community that requires the copyright assignment. Yeah, the FSF also uses a copyright assignment, but then the FSF is a foundation, Sun is a company. I mean, I write the code and Sun takes my rights??? (yeah, i can fork opensolaris and keep my copyright, but it just shows how community-unfriendly opensolaris is...)

I'm definitively not wasting time with a project that requires copyright assignment to a copmany....

Re:Copyright assignment (1)

EvilRyry (1025309) | more than 6 years ago | (#23188674)

That is my issue #1, my issue #2 is that Solaris has a single company with a tight grip on it.

I use Linux in the server room. If one vendor really gets me peeved, there's nothing stopping me from going elsewhere. With Solaris there is really only Sun. In that respect, its as bad as Windows.
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