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MySQL Reverses Decision On Closed Source

kdawson posted more than 5 years ago | from the good-on-them dept.

Sun Microsystems 157

krow writes "I am very happy to be announcing that MySQL will be forgoing close sourcing portions of the MySQL Server. Kaj has the official statement in his blog. No portion of the server will be closed source including backup, encryption, or any storage engines we ship. To quote Kaj 'The encryption and compression backup features will be open source.' This is a change from what was previously posted here on Slashdot. I've posted some additional thoughts on my own blog concerning how we keep open source from becoming crippleware. Word has it that we will also have a panel at this year's OSCON discussing this topic. Contrary to the previous Slashdot discussion, this shows Sun's continued commitment to Open Source."

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157 comments

Now change the ZFS license SUN (4, Insightful)

ctdownunder (816383) | more than 5 years ago | (#23317730)

And we will all love ya bro'

Re:Now change the ZFS license SUN (4, Insightful)

E-Lad (1262) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318348)

If you want it in Linux, I'd say that the onus is on the Linux community to change to a more permissive license.

Everyone, including Sun, has the freedom to choose their own license. The Linux community, of all people, should respect that ideal. Unless, of course, you support having a Henry Ford mindset - "Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black."

Re:Now change the ZFS license SUN (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23318488)

ok. in that case we DONT want it in linux. go fuck yourself.

Re:Now change the ZFS license SUN (-1, Redundant)

zsouthboy (1136757) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318790)

Sure, we'll just get permission from EVERY SINGLE PERSON that has submitted any patch to any GPL project (and not assigned the copyright to an organization) to change to a "more permissive" license. Including the dead persons.

Or Sun could change the license.

Or they won't.

Re:Now change the ZFS license SUN (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23319264)

This is why it's important to assign joint copyright to an organization that can make changes to adapt to future needs.

Re:Now change the ZFS license SUN (5, Insightful)

cdw38 (1001587) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318838)

Well said. Sun is not doing anything to try and keep OpenSolaris alive by locking up ZFS. Quite the contrary, BSD is picking up ZFS. Too many people want to sit around and cry about Sun "not allowing" ZFS to make its way into Linux, but at the end of the day its Linux that wants to force its terms upon everyone else.

I don't think so. (1)

twitter (104583) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318974)

If ZFS is worthwhile and not patent encumbered it will make it's way into all free software. Linux, freeDOS and others will eventually pick it up and no further action is required on Sun's part.

I'm glad that Sun and MySQL decided not to close off MySQL. That is all.

Re:I don't think so. (0, Troll)

dedazo (737510) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319072)

If ZFS is worthwhile

Ha ha, good one [lethargy.org].

make it's way

make its way.

no further action is required on Sun's part.

Read the GP of the comment you're replying. It doesn't work that way. Hubris is bad for your health, you know?

Red Hat Global File System. (0, Redundant)

gnutoo (1154137) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319422)

GFS [redhat.com] looks like it does most of what ZFS is supposed to do. There is no hubris in hoping that the nicer parts of ZFS are not patent encumbered - the hubris is in software patents and people who think they can own ideas. If there are no patents in the way, those better ideas will make their way into free file systems.

Re:Red Hat Global File System. (0, Offtopic)

willyhill (965620) | more than 5 years ago | (#23320862)

Anyone posting on this thread should be aware that twitter and gnutoo are the same person.

Re:I don't think so. (1)

twatt3r (1284850) | more than 5 years ago | (#23320806)

You make an excellent point.

However, I shall wait until I hear from inTheLoo, MacTrope, and Erris before making up my mind.

It only makes sense to be well-informed, and to hear all sides of an issue.

Re:Now change the ZFS license SUN (4, Informative)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319754)

Sun doesn't want the GPL anywhere near ZFS -- and for good reason. The GPL ought to be called the "Me Me Me PL". Let's say Sun did release ZFS under the GPL and it's adopted into Linux. Sun is shut out from any changes unless they release SunOS under the GPL as well. With the CDDL, anyone can use the code (without giving up rights to their own code) and Sun gets back any improvements (without affecting their other code). It's like the LGPL, but with much better granularity.

We see this attitude a lot with BSD/GPL conflicts. When BSD code is relicensed as GPL, the original code is denied access to any changes. Think about that for a minute. "We want you to share your code. So we won't share our changes to your code with you." Free as in "free room and board at gitmo".

Re:Now change the ZFS license SUN (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23320508)

Fag.

+1 Mature (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23319190)

Linux has come a very long way, based largely on its license. That having been said I'm damned sick and tired of the Linux fanbois ragging about how everything should be given to them. If SUN (or any developer) wants to keep things locked up it's their right.

Just how helpful is the GPL anyway? Did ZFS come from the Linux camp? No. Did OS X come from the Linux camp? No. You can bet if MySQL AB hadn't sold itself to SUN those bits mentioned would be locked up still.

While the Linux camp was in a royal pissing match about whether Gnome or KDE was better, and similarly important things, both the hated SUN (slowaris? Huh, you think) and the despised Apple (they're so gay) have out-innovated you. And now you come to them with your little tin cup whining that something should be given to you.

This is a point in time where, when you look back, you'll say 'This was a tipping point. This is where we should have got off our asses and worked together.

There's more choices out there than just a church and a bazaar. Or are you trapped in your own bad analogy?

no onus (4, Insightful)

mkcmkc (197982) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319280)

I'd say there is no "onus". Linux has a license that the Linux developers like, and ZFS has a license that its owners like. If it happens that they are incompatible, that's okay. As long as no patents are involved, the Linux people are free to reimplement ZFS, and Sun is free to reimplement Linux. This is a good thing.

As a practical matter, I suspect that virtually no one would switch OSes to use ZFS, but for some users this will be a good tradeoff.

Re:no onus (4, Interesting)

E-Lad (1262) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319368)

You're absolutely correct. That's why I have to wonder about all the "$SOLARIS_FEATURE is not GPL'd" whining. Your good statement helps show that this is more-or-less sour grapes from a community (or a large subset of it) that thought they had it all, either politically or technically.

I'm reminded of a rather large company in Redmond, Washington that carried on similarly throughout the 90's and early 00's, eventually being zapped in the ass for their hubris.

Re:no onus (2, Insightful)

mkcmkc (197982) | more than 5 years ago | (#23320708)

I think it's fair to ask whether Sun has an agenda in choosing one license when they could have chosen another. That's not the same as saying that they don't have the right to choose any license they like.

Personally I don't really care. Solaris is about where Perforce is--they can still make money, but the leading edge has passed them by, probably forever. The thought of using an OS/distribution with which I couldn't install (say) callgrind in 90 seconds is just about unthinkable at this point.

Re:no onus (1)

chromatic (9471) | more than 5 years ago | (#23320736)

The thought of using an OS/distribution with which I couldn't install (say) callgrind in 90 seconds is just about unthinkable at this point.

That thought made me shiver. You're a bad person for even suggesting such a situation could exist.

Re:no onus (2, Interesting)

E-Lad (1262) | more than 5 years ago | (#23320846)

One can also say, with some agreeable degree of accuracy, that RMS birthed the GPL and chose that for his code due to an agenda of his own. Is it a surprise to you that licenses are chosen and nix'd based on how in line they are with the choosing org's goals? That's an agenda dictating things. Everyone has one. The question is, is whether you are amicable towards that agenda, or not. But, yes, some people can be bafflingly dumb and pick a license out of thin air with no purpose or foresight behind why they did so.

Re:no onus (3, Insightful)

mrsteveman1 (1010381) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319424)

Yea, but one of the strengths of open source is that you don't NEED to re-implement stuff all over the place. This however is a political license issue completely voiding one of the strengths of open source code.

In this case with ZFS, GPL is causing problems. There are other operating systems using the ZFS code Sun released, the odd one out is Linux because of the GPL.

Re:no onus (4, Insightful)

dreamchaser (49529) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319750)

That's because the GPL, for all the good it's done, is at the end of the day more of a political statement than a license.

Yes, yes I know I'll get modded as flamebait for this, but the truth hurts. Don't get me wrong, I use tons of GPL software and have contributed to some as well. I'm just sick of the more fanatical among the OSS crowd acting like it's the only license fit to ever use under any circumstances. As others have noted in this discussion it's also held Linux back in a few areas.

Re:no onus (4, Insightful)

mkcmkc (197982) | more than 5 years ago | (#23320684)

As others have noted in this discussion it's also held Linux back in a few areas.
Well, the fact that I'm not willing to give away the fruits of my labor also "holds me back", but I don't look at it that way because I have goals other than just wanting as many people as possible to use my software. The same can be said for the GPL--it's goals are simply not the same as those of Open Source in general. I think you'd have to say that RMS has gone to great ends to make that clear.

Re:no onus (1)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319786)

As a practical matter, I suspect that virtually no one would switch OSes to use ZFS, but for some users this will be a good tradeoff.

Not a switch, per se (I run linux on my NSLU2), but I used solaris when setting up my home RAID NAS server strictly for ZFS. (otherwise, it probably would have been FreeBSD).

Re:no onus (1)

God_Retired (44721) | more than 5 years ago | (#23320644)

But why the fuck would Sun reimplement Linux? If they have binary compatibility with Linux base binaries, what the hell is their problem. I'm thinking about switching my box to OpenSolaris. Have been thinking that for awhile. The only stop, and the same one I had with FreeBSD several years ago, is the license. Yes, I like the code to be free. Yes I have given weeks of my life to GPL'd code. I really don't see what the problem is.

I make my living doing non-code things. It always seems to me that scriptkiddy people are the only ones who are so adamant about the license. Truly skilled make good livings in companies working on systems that it wouldn't make any sense to GPL. No one else would use it. In other words, highly customized code.

I try to only work with code that I have the chance to look at and improve. Then send to my friends, as well as upstream.

Re:Now change the ZFS license SUN (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23319768)

The Linux community CAN'T change to a more permissive license. The decision to use the GPL ensures that, in order to even make a linking exception, permissions must be obtained from every person whose code still exists in the kernel. That's a classic RMS design feature of the GPL. (To ensure that a project cannot be pressured to compromise their principles)

Besides, the problem lies with Sun to begin with. Software patents are just algorithm patents in disguise and it's well established that one cannot patent mathematical algorithms.

Re:Now change the ZFS license SUN (1, Flamebait)

E-Lad (1262) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319944)

The Linux community CAN'T change to a more permissive license.
Welcome to the bed that RMS, via Linus, has made for you. Please - sleep in it.

You're just upset that there's this cool thingy called ZFS and DTrace and you're smarting because your favorite OS cannot have it in part due to a decision made long ago by one Linus Torvalds.

Sour grapes. Linux/GPL zealots need to stop blaming everyone but themselves for things they've barred themselves from accessing. No one in this world is obligated to release code under the GPL, no matter what RMS would have you believe. That is true freedom. I believe that the concept of freedom of choice was a core concept of the Linux/GPL camp before it got too big for its britches.

Re:Now change the ZFS license SUN (1, Interesting)

waferhead (557795) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318816)

It occurred to me driving into work that this might happen after all...

Novell still (almost certainly) owns the SysV code.

Sun bought a liscence from SCO (that is probably invalid)so Sun could release OpenSolaris.

Novells ball...

Novell could easily wave it off with a stipulation that say... ZFS would become GPL or std BSD...

Sun would have the choice of killing OpenSolaris, or marginalizing it via GPLing the only parts of it that gives it any advantage over Linux.

Re:Now change the ZFS license SUN (3, Interesting)

njcoder (657816) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319300)

ZFS doesn't have anything to do with SYSVR4.

Novell said they have no interest in pursuing Unix copyrights.

Novell is trying to get their 95% portion of the license Sun paid to SCO. By saying the agreement between Sun and SCO was part of the APA between Novell and SCO they are affirming the deal between Sun and SCO. Sun actually helped write SYSVR4 with AT&T before Novell bought it. According to Schwartz, Sun paid AT&T about $100million for rights that basically gave them ownership. What was purchased from SCO were mainly device drivers since SCO's UnixWare had the best x86 support.

What is Novell's position going to be to the public? "We're an open source company but we're going to sue a company for releasing open source?" Nothing good can come to Novell if they challenge Sun.

Re:Now change the ZFS license SUN (1)

SpammersAreScum (697628) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319896)

By saying the agreement between Sun and SCO was part of the APA between Novell and SCO they are affirming the deal between Sun and SCO.
I disagree. Novell is saying that the APA means SCO owes them a goodly chunk of the moneys it got it the SCO-Sun deal. It is also saying SCO exceeded its authority under the APA when it made the deal without consulting Novell. Neither statement indicates approval or disapproval of the deal itself, and Novell has not to my knowledge committed either way.

Re:Now change the ZFS license SUN (1)

njcoder (657816) | more than 5 years ago | (#23320258)

I disagree and I'll leave it at that. Except to say that it would have made more sense for Novell to claim that SCO is not entitled to collect that money rather than SCO owes them the 95%.

Anyway, according to Schwartz in a 2003 interview he said:

eWEEK: Some critics are saying that its not just Microsoft funding SCO but also Sun, citing the fact that you acquired another license from them recently, received warrants to buy shares in SCO and are losing the most customers in the migration from Unix to Linux. It thus makes enormous sense for Sun to fund SCO, their logic goes. How do you respond to that?

Schwartz:We took a license from AT&T initially for $100 million as we didnt own the IP. The license we took also made clear that we had rights equivalent to ownership. When we did the deal with SCO earlier this year we bought a bunch of drivers and when we give money to a company oftentimes we get warrants, which is part of the negotiations. I have warrants in 100 different companies, we have a huge venture portfolio. I cant do anything about the perception thats out there and to be blunt, I dont care as those people arent going to drive our futureâ"customers are.
Which makes sense considering Sun developed SYSVR4 with AT&T.

From this article [pcworld.com]:

"We're not interested in suing people over Unix," Novell spokesman Bruce Lowry said. "We're not even in the Unix business anymore."
How would it look for Novell, to sue Sun over an open source project? Especially considering Sun is the biggest corporate open source donor [businessreviewonline.com]. By the way, the article doesn't specify, but if you read the study, those numbers are from the source of Debian. They do not include OpenSolaris, OpenJDK or any of the other open source projects Sun participates in or has released.

While I do believe McNealy and Schwartz shared similar views, McNealy's mouth did tend to get in the way. As we've seen here Schwartz is sticking to his commitment to open source.

It looks to me like Novell is talking about OpenSolaris to bolster their case. Novell's CEO has also been spreading a lot of FUD about OpenSolaris. [sun.com]

Re:Now change the ZFS license SUN (1)

waferhead (557795) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319922)

I'm NOT saying ZFS has anything to do with the old Unix code... directly.

But legally, it doesn't look like Sun bought anything in from SCO in reality that legally enabled the release of Opensolaris.

Novell has leverage, if they choose to flex it or not is up to them.

I'm proposing GPL'ing ZFS as a possible bone for the dog, so to speak.

Re:Now change the ZFS license SUN (1)

njcoder (657816) | more than 5 years ago | (#23320400)

You should read my response above to the previous reply.

In addition let me add some history of SYSVR4 which explains why suing Sun over SYSVR4 is so funny.

In 1988 I believe, AT&T and Sun got together to work on SYSVR4. SunOS was primarily based on BSD at the time and a lot of BSD bits went into SYSVR4. Bill Joy, a founder of Sun was also a leading developer of BSD. AT&T and Sun handed off the rights to a seperate entity, Unix Laboratories, to handle licensing so that others can implement it. Sun always pushed for open standards, before open source was that popular.

Solaris is based on SYSVR4. You can see the relationship here [wikimedia.org]. Solaris developed on it's own after it's SYSVR4 base. As did UnixWare. What Sun needed for Solaris 10 was better x86 support. SYSVR4 did not provide that. UnixWare did. At the time UnixWare had a large i386 deployment and good drivers to support that platform. So it makes sense that if Solaris got anything from SCO it related to UnixWare. Other than the x86 support, I don't think anyone can argue that UnixWare was better than Solaris.

Imagine if somewhere down the line, someone sued Linus over his use of Linux.

The problem the APA has is that it gives different treatment to UnixWare than it does to SYSVR4. Basically, SCO can do what it wants with UnixWare and Novell's lawyers are trying to separate the UnixWare parts from SYSVR4 which doesn't make much sense. It's like if you buy a source license for Windows 3.1 which is built on Windows 3.0 but you don't have rights to the code in Windows 3.1 that is from Windows 3.0.

Another interesting thing, the thing I think has Novell, IBM, and HP worried, is that in that simplified Unix History Tree. Solaris is the only Unix still on there. AIX, HP/UX, Irix are all gone. That indicates to me that Solaris still has value. UnixWare I believe is still on there because of the SCO trial. The original Unix History Tree is a mess and unreadable but you can google it and find it.

Novell and some others would like to get Solaris off the map because they think it would help Linux. To me that's a very short sighted view. I like what Jonathan Schwartz has to say on that issue [sun.com].

glad that sun isn't becoming evil too (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23317734)

we don't need more evil....

ZFS next to be open sourced? (0, Redundant)

axehind (518047) | more than 5 years ago | (#23317742)

This is great to see!
Hopefully Sun will show even more commitment to Open Source by GPLing ZFS.

Re:ZFS next to be open sourced? (5, Informative)

brunascle (994197) | more than 5 years ago | (#23317786)

ZFS is open source, using Sun's CDDL license. the problem is that the CDDL isnt compatible with the GPL.

Re:ZFS next to be open sourced? (1)

axehind (518047) | more than 5 years ago | (#23317810)

Thanks for the clarification. That is what I meant.
It would be great to be able to use ZFS on linux without fuse.

Re:ZFS next to be open sourced? (2, Insightful)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 5 years ago | (#23317954)

I'm sure you could write a patch to get it in the kernel without FUSE, you just couldn't distribute it.

Re:ZFS next to be open sourced? (3, Informative)

Kjella (173770) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318264)

I'm sure you could write a patch to get it in the kernel without FUSE, you just couldn't distribute it.
Actually, nothing could stop you distributing just the patch under the CDDL. You definately couldn't ship binaries, and I'm not sure if they could go together since it's somewhat beyond "mere aggregation". The more likely problem is that you'd need to hook fairly deep into the kernel's subsystems and so keeping a set of zfs-pathces current with each kernel release would be no non-trivial job.

Re:ZFS next to be open sourced? (1)

Sancho (17056) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318780)

So is a patch not considered to be a derivative work?

Re:ZFS next to be open sourced? (2, Interesting)

mysidia (191772) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319568)

So is a patch not considered to be a derivative work?

It is, but you can dual-license your modifications under both the GPL and the CDDL.

You distribute your modifications to the kernel to add ZFS hooks as one piece (dual-licensed).

Then you distribute the CDDL-licensed pieces as a separate package, modified to utilize the hooks you added to interact directly with the separate CDDL-licensed package.

Your ZFS hooks enable the the separate package to be 'loaded' into the kernel after it is compiled from source.

A derivative work is created when the CDDL -licensed package is loaded, BUT this derivative work is created by the end-user, not you the programmer, or you the person distributing the package.

The act of the user creating a derived work isn't prohibited by the GPL, so long as they do not copy or distribute their derived work.

The modified CDDL-licensed package is a derivative work of your own kernel modifications, hence the choice to dual-license the kernel-modification package.

Re:ZFS next to be open sourced? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23317990)

I think it's neat FreeBSD has an advantage over Linux for once. FreeBSD has ZFS.

Re:ZFS next to be open sourced? (1)

claytonjr (1142215) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319828)

ZFS is open source, using Sun's CDDL license. the problem is that the CDDL isn't compatible with the GPL.
That is a two-way street. It could be said that the problem is with GPL, in that it is not compatible with CDDL. FreeBSD or MacOS X doesn't seem to have a problem with the license.

While the GPL is a fantastic license, it isn't always nice, about who it plays with.

Re:ZFS next to be open sourced? (1)

Uncle Focker (1277658) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318004)

Wasn't there talk of Sun possibly doing a port for Linux? That would be much appreciated if they did so.

Great to see? Want to make a bet? (1)

spun (1352) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318174)

How much do you want to bet that when they say: "No portion of the server will be closed source," what they actually mean is: "We will be developing separate closed source backup tools rather than incorporating that functionality into the server, to keep you bitches from whining."

Re:Great to see? Want to make a bet? (2, Informative)

njcoder (657816) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318252)

Click the link and read more

* MySQL Server is and will always remain fully functional and open source,
        * so will the MySQL Connectors, and
        * so will the main storage engines we ship.

In addition:

        * MySQL 6.0â(TM)s pending backup functionality will be open source,
        * the MyISAM driver for MySQL Backup will be open source, and
        * the encryption and compression backup features will be open source,

where the last item is a change of direction from what we were considering before.

The change comes from MySQL now being part of Sun Microsystems. Our initial plans were made for a company considering an IPO, but made less sense in the context of Sun, a large company with a whole family of complementary open source software and hardware products.

Re:Great to see? Want to make a bet? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23318522)

How much do you want to bet that when they say: "No portion of the server will be closed source," what they actually mean is: "We will be developing separate closed source backup tools rather than incorporating that functionality into the server, to keep you bitches from whining."
Sun's CEO has been saying stuff like, [Open Source is] not a cheap complement to throw to the community in order to drive sales of "the real value" [news.com] for quite a while now.

Which is why:
a) It was a shocker that the MySQL division of Sun was going to keep parts of the code closed in the first place.
b) This new announcement is not fluff to keep people from whining.

creators maintain decision to disempower evile (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23317748)

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(Score:-)mynuts won, the king is a fink)
by ourselves on everyday 24/7

as there are no benefits, just more&more death/debt & disruption. fortunately there's an 'army' of light bringers, coming yOUR way. the little ones/innocents must/will be protected. after the big flash, ALL of yOUR imaginary 'borders' may blur a bit? for each of the creators' innocents harmed in any way, there is a debt that must/will be repaid by you/us, as the perpetrators/minions of unprecedented evile, will not be available. 'vote' with (what's left in) yOUR wallet, & by your behaviors. help bring an end to unprecedented evile's manifestation through yOUR owned felonious corepirate nazi glowbull warmongering execrable. some of US should consider ourselves somewhat fortunate to be among those scheduled to survive after the big flash/implementation of the creators' wwwildly popular planet/population rescue initiative/mandate. it's right in the manual, 'world without end', etc.... as we all ?know?, change is inevitable, & denying/ignoring gravity, logic, morality, etc..., is only possible, on a temporary basis. concern about the course of events that will occur should the life0cidal execrable fail to be intervened upon is in order. 'do not be dismayed' (also from the manual). however, it's ok/recommended, to not attempt to live under/accept, fauxking nazi felon greed/fear/ego based pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking hypenosys.

consult with/trust in yOUR creators. providing more than enough of everything for everyone (without any distracting/spiritdead personal gain motives), whilst badtolling unprecedented evile, using an unlimited supply of newclear power, since/until forever. see you there?

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

meanwhile, the life0cidal philistines continue on their path of death, debt, & disruption for most of US. gov. bush denies health care for the little ones;

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/03/bush.veto/index.html

whilst demanding/extorting billions to paint more targets on the bigger kids;

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/12/bush.war.funding/index.html

& pretending that it isn't happening here;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3086937.ece
all is not lost/forgotten/forgiven

(yOUR elected) president al gore (deciding not to wait for the much anticipated 'lonesome al answers yOUR questions' interview here on /.) continues to attempt to shed some light on yOUR foibles. talk about reverse polarity;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article3046116.ece

Oh, my (1)

BattyMan (21874) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318660)

Is there a "-1: incoherent ranting" moderation option?

"Weather control"? Wow.

Please box up some of that shit you're smoking, and send it my way.

Good for Sun (1, Offtopic)

trybywrench (584843) | more than 5 years ago | (#23317778)

Good for them.

Sun has been in the back of my mind a lot lately. I like their Sunfire servers and will be needing a decent 2U server in about 6 months. Maybe i'll buy one from them.

Wow good PR works ;)

Re:Good for Sun (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23318898)

What about this is redundant?

The whole thing was pointless anyway (5, Insightful)

Mark Atwood (19301) | more than 5 years ago | (#23317792)

The MySQL software that was originally proposed to be closed source are portions of the online backup drivers. Each such driver has to be written in close cooperation with the developers of each storage engine. Well...

InnoDB already has an online backup tool, and even if/when they revise their tool to use this new API, it's still going to be theirs, open or closed, not the property of the MySQL Group.

Online backup of the engines for CSV, Blackhole, and Memcached doesn't even make sense. Archive already has a publicly available open source online backup tool.

Online backup makes sense for Maria, I don't see MontyW writing crippleware into his work.

How about MyISAM? I think that work is already done, but, the horse is already out of the barn, in that the online backup drivers for it are already publically available..

Looking even closer, the part that was going to be closed was not even the entire online backup driver set, but just compression and encryption. Any halfway competent developer would be able to hook in the necessary calls to azio, zlib, and openssl, and replicate the work.

So this is a big tempest over something that doesn't matter, and couldnt have happened anyway.

Plus, best practices for backup dont even use or want online backup. The Right Way to backup a real production MySQL instances is via filesystem snapshot, using something like LVM or ZFS.

As a small aside, the Slashdot headline of the original article was not entirely accurate. It wasn't the Sun executives who decided this. It was the MySQL executives. What that means, especially in light of the keynote speeches given by CEO Jonathan Schwartz and VP Rich Green, is interesting, and remains to be publically seen.

Re:The whole thing was pointless anyway (4, Informative)

Rary (566291) | more than 5 years ago | (#23317874)

As a small aside, the Slashdot headline of the original article was not entirely accurate.

Actually, that headline and this headline are completely inaccurate, because both mentioned a decision where none had been made.

MySQL had not decided to use a closed source license. They were considering many different licenses, including a closed source license -- but also including the GPL and other open source licenses. No decision had been made. This announcement is the first actual decision on the subject.

Re:The whole thing was pointless anyway (3, Informative)

Jherek Carnelian (831679) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318332)

No decision had been made. This announcement is the first actual decision on the subject.
Baloney. The former CEO of MySQL even posted otherwise right here on slashdot:

The business decision on this was made by MySQL AB (by me as the then CEO)... [slashdot.org]

The decision was made and then was reversed.

Re:The whole thing was pointless anyway (4, Informative)

njcoder (657816) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319060)

No decision had been made. This announcement is the first actual decision on the subject.
Baloney. The former CEO of MySQL even posted otherwise right here on slashdot:

The business decision on this was made by MySQL AB (by me as the then CEO)... [slashdot.org]

The decision was made and then was reversed.
Read your own link:

Additionally we will develop high-end add-ons (such as encryption, native storage engine-specific drivers) that we will deliver to customers in the MySQL Enterprise product only. We have not yet decided under what licence we will release those add-ons (GPL, some other FOSS licence, and/or commercial)

Re:The whole thing was pointless anyway (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23319032)

Use of LVM or ZFS to backup the on-disc copy is... questionable, as there remains the possibility, ever so slight, of the on-disc image not being completely consistent. Albeit the database journal is supposed to take care of this.

Most "let's have it consistent" approaches involve having it consistent on disc, not necessarily in the in-memory copy (fsync() flushes to disc what is already in memory) currently has in it, which may not be entirely atomic (only if it guarantees that single PAGE_SIZE writes [to memory] are consistent).

On the other hand, maybe the engineers make none of those assumptions and the journal takes care of it all, and the journal commits are sufficiently atomic. However, LVM or ZFS does not guarantee that the application in the above layers has put down a consistent file-image.

Re:The whole thing was pointless anyway (3, Insightful)

Alex Belits (437) | more than 5 years ago | (#23320184)

Plus, best practices for backup dont even use or want online backup. The Right Way to backup a real production MySQL instances is via filesystem snapshot, using something like LVM or ZFS.
(owl goes here)

Databases backups over filesystem snapshots? With the assumption that all database commits are automatically filesystems commits, and there is no buffering between those layers? And with no incremental backups through transaction logs?

Yawn (1)

Rary (566291) | more than 5 years ago | (#23317800)

This isn't much of a change. They hadn't made up their mind regarding what license would be used for the new backup utilities. They just hadn't ruled out proprietary licensing. Now they have.

It wasn't much of a story before, and it's only slightly more of a story now.

Good day for all (4, Informative)

Uncle Focker (1277658) | more than 5 years ago | (#23317808)

Good. I'm glad that Sun was able to convince the MySQL staff to not close source any of the codebase. And yes, as was pointed out in the other thread, Sun wasn't the one pushing the close source move they were actually trying to convince them to go the opposite.

Re:Good day for all (5, Funny)

Jherek Carnelian (831679) | more than 5 years ago | (#23317858)

I'm glad that Sun was able to convince the MySQL staff to not close source any of the codebase.
Totally! Don't you hate it when you buy a company and they won't do what you tell them?
Good thing Sun was able to convince Sun to stick to Sun's official policy.

Re:Good day for all (4, Informative)

Uncle Focker (1277658) | more than 5 years ago | (#23317934)

MySQL was considering the close sourcing of the enterprise stuff before they were acquired by Sun. After being acquired Sun was pushing that they don't go with the close source route as was confirmed in the previous thread. http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=525246&cid=23098626 [slashdot.org]

The business decision on this was made by MySQL AB (by me as the then CEO) prior to the acquisition by Sun, so this has nothing to do with Sun. On the contrary, Sun is more likely to influence this decision the other way.
Troll harder next time.

Re:Good day for all (1)

Jherek Carnelian (831679) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318170)

After being acquired Sun was pushing that they don't go with the close source route as was confirmed in the previous thread.
"Pushing" against whom? MySQL ceased to exist as a separate entity once it was acquired.

MySQL was considering the close sourcing
The business decision on this was made by MySQL AB
Your own quote disproves your claim. The decision was made, not just considered, pre-acquisition.
Post acquistion, the decision was reversed.

Re:Good day for all (2, Insightful)

njcoder (657816) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318666)

"Pushing" against whom? MySQL ceased to exist as a separate entity once it was acquired.
You know that companies are run by people right? Their not some big robot or computer program. People need time to adjust and get familiar with the new vision of their new company. You don't right click on MySQL AB, select Refactor and expect everything to just change.

Certain initiatives that were started pre buyout continued. When it was detected that those initiatives weren't inline with Sun's plans, it was corrected.

All the 400 or so employees that were with MySQL are now with Sun and they need to get used to how being part of Sun frees them from increasing direct revenues from MySQL.

Sun buys an open source company and doesn't force them to change their business practices. Doesn't sound so bad. And when it does get them to change their business practices, it results in being more open.

Re:Good day for all (1)

Jherek Carnelian (831679) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318752)

All the 400 or so employees that were with MySQL are now with Sun and they need to get used to how being part of Sun...
No. Really the only ones who need to get used to be being part of Sun here are the handful of PR flacks who vet public announcements. It shouldn't take much for them to get up to speed on Sun corporate policy and thus be able to hold back any public announcements that are in conflict until the conflict is resolved.

But you go ahead and keep believing the bad management is just part of the normal process of an acquisition.

Re:Good day for all (2, Interesting)

njcoder (657816) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319040)

Are you for real?

An open source company wants to close some of its new features. The "proprietary" software company that bought them wants them to keep everything open.

Somehow, everyone wants to paint the proprietary company in a bad light. The original blog post from the first story never even mentioned Sun but the title on Slashdot was about Sun closing MySQL.

Sun's management has MySQL change that decision and the headline is about MySQL reverting.

There's an obvious bias here that's laughable.

Mickos is the one that needs to adapt here. Though I personally don't think it's fair to give him a hard time about it. I mean the guy just closed a big deal, got a ton of money and needs to do a different job than he was doing for the last 7 or so years. If he does the same stuff in a couple more months, that's a different story.

And this wasn't a "public announcement" it was at a partner meeting. Which is a bit different. And nothing was actually released or finalized, it was just a roadmap to let partners know what to expect. Sometimes these things change but people made a big deal over it.

Most large acquisitions have their hiccups. That shouldn't come as any suprise.

Alternate interpretation of events... (4, Insightful)

Edgewize (262271) | more than 5 years ago | (#23317816)

"Company forced to give up revenue stream due to open-source fanatics who refuse to acknowledge any boundary between open-source MySQL server APIs and closed-source enterprise utilities which call those APIs"

Despite the outcome, this is not a victory for the open-source movement. The original Slashdot story was inflammatory and designed to mislead, and now it has had the desired effect.

Re:Alternate interpretation of events... (5, Insightful)

JustinOpinion (1246824) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318026)

What?

So you not only believe:
1. Sun (a corporation) makes decisions not based on what will bring in the most revenue, but based on what "fanatics" want;
You also apparently believe:
2. The Slashdot crowd has the ability to shape corporate policies to their whims.

I think a reality check is in order.

Sun/MySQL were considering a variety of licenses (including closed source ones). To the extent that comments made on Slashdot (and other online sources) made sense, they were probably taken into account. However, the final decision was undoubtedly what they thought would maximize profits. Yes, maintaining community good-will is probably part of their strategy, since it gives them free advertising (evangelism, etc.) and some free development (patch submissions, etc.).

Frankly I don't see how this isn't a victory for both open-source and MySQL. The community gets open-source code, MySQL gets development and exposure. Win-win.

Re:Alternate interpretation of events... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23318034)

"Company forced to give up revenue stream due to open-source fanatics...
more like open-source saboteurs...

Re:Alternate interpretation of events... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23318066)

The original Slashdot story was inflammatory and designed to mislead, and now it has had the desired effect.
New to /.?

Re:Alternate interpretation of events... (1)

hxnwix (652290) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318068)

Company forced to give up revenue stream due to open-source fanatics
Right; just as the openness of the Linux kernel denies Redhat revenue?

Despite the outcome, this is not a victory for the open-source movement.
The MySQL eco-system remains that much more open. I'm sorry this bothers you, but it's hardly a defeat for OS.

Re:Alternate interpretation of events... (2, Insightful)

njcoder (657816) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318300)

"Company forced to give up revenue stream due to open-source fanatics who refuse to acknowledge any boundary between open-source MySQL server APIs and closed-source enterprise utilities which call those APIs"

Despite the outcome, this is not a victory for the open-source movement. The original Slashdot story was inflammatory and designed to mislead, and now it has had the desired effect.
MySQL AB needed to generate revenue directly from MySQL as that was pretty much their only product. They were looking for an IPO before Sun bought them so they needed to increase revenues.

Being part of Sun, MySQL doesn't have the same pressure to generate revenues directly from MySQL. Sun/Schwartz's plan is to drive revenue in Sun's other lines from MySQL. Hardware sales, support, etc.

Re:Alternate interpretation of events... (3, Informative)

this great guy (922511) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319696)

"Company forced to give up revenue stream due to open-source fanatics [...]"

Actually Sun CEO Jonathan Schwartz has explained numerous times in his blog that opensourcing your products increases your revenue stream in the long term. I invite you to read in particular this 2-day old post [sun.com] where he answers the FAQ "Why don't you just stop giving your software away?" and gives precisely the example of MySQL.

Re:Alternate interpretation of events... (2, Insightful)

shmlco (594907) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319906)

"....opensourcing your products increases your revenue stream in the long term."

In some cases. Here, the hope was that they'll buy a license and support package. If they don't, no revenue.

Further, I'd argue that basing a business on support fees and licenses means that it's against your best interests to ever create a powerful easy-to-use product that DOESN'T need support. If you want income, then complexity and bugs are your friends.

Re:Alternate interpretation of events... (1)

this great guy (922511) | more than 5 years ago | (#23320068)

You don't see far enough. There is more than licenses and support fees. Schwartz explained in other posts that giving away software increases the opportunity for Sun to sell more of other stuff: give your customer an open source database and they will buy more SAN storage, servers, networking equipment, etc !

Re:Alternate interpretation of events... (1)

njcoder (657816) | more than 5 years ago | (#23320768)

You don't see far enough.
That's what happens when you stand on the shoulders of midgets.

Re:Alternate interpretation of events... (1)

Alex Belits (437) | more than 5 years ago | (#23320270)

"Company forced to give up revenue stream due to open-source fanatics who refuse to acknowledge...
Just throw a chair into Yahoo HQ parking lot, Steve.

Alternative ending (1)

aliquis (678370) | more than 5 years ago | (#23317860)

"Contrary to the previous Slashdot discussion, this shows Sun's continued commitment to Open Source."


Sad enough this shows how Sun still have a hard time deciding what they want to, or more importantly should do, and if they should just dip their toes a little or go all in.

I do understand peoples critisism for it but it's their property and they are free to do whatever they want with it.

Lol Slashdot is too much (5, Interesting)

njcoder (657816) | more than 5 years ago | (#23317964)

When it was announced that MySQL would be releasing some features in MySQL Enterprise and not in the community edition the original Slashdot headline was "Sun to close MySQL" or something similar.

Then Mickos (former CEO of MySQL AB and SVP of Sun Database group) comes here and says that it was MySQL's plan to do this before the acquisition by Sun and that it was in fact Sun who wanted them to release everything to the community. And if Sun had their way it would.

So now that Sun convinces Mickos to change his strategy the headline is "MySQL Reverses Decision On Closed Source"

HAHAHAHAHA

Re:Lol Slashdot is too much (3, Informative)

krow (129804) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318058)

Hi!

If anyone in the know had written the original article I doubt they would have put "Sun" in the title. It was pretty much a MySQL decision all along. The original article was not completely wrong, but it certainly was wrong on the Sun part.

Cheers,
      -Brian

Re:Lol Slashdot is too much (1)

Apotsy (84148) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318572)

The problem is, you mention Sun when the outcome is "bad", but fail to mention them when it's "good". Biased much?

Re:Lol Slashdot is too much (1)

krow (129804) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318634)

Hi!

I believe that I did mention Sun in the post, and I did so in a positive way. So I do not understand your comment.

Cheers,
      -Brian

Re:Lol Slashdot is too much (4, Insightful)

Apotsy (84148) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318862)

Old story:
EXTRA!! EXTRA!! SUN DOES SOMETHING BAD!!!!
(actually, it wasn't really sun)

Today's story:
EXTRA!! EXTRA!! MYSQL DOES SOMETHING GOOD!!!!
(actually, sun may have been involved)

Understand now?

Re:Lol Slashdot is too much (1)

krow (129804) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318944)

Hi!

Well I have no ability to edit a previously written story so I can do nothing about what went on before :)

Cheers,
      -Brian

Re:Lol Slashdot is too much (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23318526)

Yeah, it's pretty retarded. I'm surprised such tripe was ever modded up the firehose.

Re:Lol Slashdot is too much (1)

jez9999 (618189) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318534)

When it was announced that MySQL would be releasing some features in MySQL Enterprise and not in the community edition the original Slashdot headline was "Sun to close MySQL" or something similar.

Then Mickos (former CEO of MySQL AB and SVP of Sun Database group) comes here and says that it was MySQL's plan to do this before the acquisition by Sun and that it was in fact Sun who wanted them to release everything to the community. And if Sun had their way it would.

So now that Sun convinces Mickos to change his strategy the headline is "MySQL Reverses Decision On Closed Source"

HAHAHAHAHA


See, Slashdot's like an omelette. We have a combination of sausage and ham and tomatoes and eggs and more. By 8PM, we want to have an omelette worth eating. And if it's not... sometimes we have to whip out the Tabasco sauce.

Re:Lol Slashdot is too much (2, Funny)

njcoder (657816) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319158)

You may have said something that makes sense. All I keep thinking is I'm hungry.

I don't see any problem with close sourcing (3, Informative)

iamacat (583406) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318078)

Just because you release one product as open source doesn't mean that you have to release all you works or future versions under the same license. Just as long as you don't mislead anyone about old and new license terms and do not try to harass developers [jroller.com] who have forked off your old version and are possibly duplicating your closed source extensions.

Re:I don't see any problem with close sourcing (1)

krow (129804) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318370)

Hi!

I would completely agree with you on this point. I added the link to my "crippleware" blog entry for this reason. While I believe it is best for the server to be open source, there is nothing stopping anyone from writing closed source extensions to their open source projects. As long as licenses are obeyed and a company acts in an even handed manner I believe that they will avoid creating crippleware.

Cheers,
      -Brian

In Jonathan's words (1)

isilrion (814117) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318402)

I was almost sure I had gotten this link from slashdot, but after googling around, I just can't find where.

Anyway, here is an " interview with Sun's CEO. For those lazy enough to not click the link: [oreilly.com]

JesseStay: does he anticipate a fallout of original MySQL users or fork in the mysql code and how will they handle that if it does happen?

JonathanSchwartz: I'm not anticipating a fork - Marten Mickos (SVP, Database Group at Sun, former CEO, MySQL) made some comments saying he was considering making available certain MySQL add-ons to MySQL Enterprise subscribers only - and as I said on stage, leaders at Sun have the autonomy to do what they think is right to maximize their business value - so long as they remember their responsibility to the corporation and all of its communities (from shareholders to developers). Not just their silo.

I think Marten got some fairly direct and immediate feedback saying the idea was a bad one - and we have no plans whatever of "hiding the ball," of keeping any technology from the community. Everything Sun delivers will be freely available, via a free and open license (either GPL, LGPL or Mozilla/CDDL), to the community.

Everything.

No exception.

I just hope it's true.

Nice to see some good news from time to time (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 5 years ago | (#23318892)

sun and mysql people made some part of my day here today, with this news.

Floating a Balloon to see if it will Fly (2, Insightful)

zuperduperman (1206922) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319010)

This has all the hallmarks of a classic PR maneuver - Sun wants to figure out how they can extract more $$ from the high end users of MySQL. They need to find out how the market will react if they start selling closed source MySQL extensions without committing themselves if it goes horribly wrong. So they sprinkle some unsubtantiated vague rumours around and look for the reaction. The reaction was: PostgreSQL. So now they can kill the whole idea with minimal losses and try their next plan for how to "monetize" MySQL some more without pissing off their entire user base and killing the golden goose.

I don't believe for a second that things like this are an accident. These folks are far too smooth to just accidently let this kind of thing drop and run for a week.

Re:Floating a Balloon to see if it will Fly (1)

njcoder (657816) | more than 5 years ago | (#23319138)

This has all the hallmarks of a classic PR maneuver - Sun wants to figure out how they can extract more $$ from the high end users of MySQL. They need to find out how the market will react if they start selling closed source MySQL extensions without committing themselves if it goes horribly wrong. So they sprinkle some unsubtantiated vague rumours around and look for the reaction. The reaction was: PostgreSQL. So now they can kill the whole idea with minimal losses and try their next plan for how to "monetize" MySQL some more without pissing off their entire user base and killing the golden goose.


I don't believe for a second that things like this are an accident. These folks are far too smooth to just accidently let this kind of thing drop and run for a week.

I doubt that. When MySQL AB was a separate company and interested in an IPO, they had to find ways to boost their revenues.

While MySQL makes money on support and some of the "Enterprise" tools, their main source of revenue is from companies like Cisco that want to buy a non-GPL license to MySQL to embed it in one of their products. Since MySQL AB offered MySQL in dual licenses, it gives companies that want to include it in their projects, and possibly extend or modify it the ability to keep their changes to themselves and not have to GPL their own work.

Now that MySQL is part of Sun, it doesn't need to generate the same revenue from MySQL directly. Seems that MySQL's management didn't get this. But to be fair, they never specified that the source would be closed. They mentioned it could be available under the GPL but they haven't decided. What they said was that it would be in MySQL Enterprise and not MySQL Community.

Not what the CEO said (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23319632)

Curious, especially since the CEO of MySQL said yesterday at CommunityOne that they WILL be offering some closed source, pay-for components.

Closed source... no wait, open source (2, Funny)

c_stromblad (1008451) | more than 5 years ago | (#23320810)

Whichever side you're on in this never ending battle between the choice of open source or closed source I find it most interesting that sun is "committed" to open source. How come? The acquire MySQL, try to make parts of it closed source and ... then because of market forces decide not to do it. Then in some weird market propaganda they are suddenly committed to open source.

Ha, good one.
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