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Archive.org Defeats FBI's Demand For User Information

timothy posted more than 6 years ago | from the brewster-kahle-you're-my-hero dept.

Privacy 224

eldavojohn writes "Although we don't know what they were after due to the settlement, a gag order was just released that kept Internet Archive member Brewster Kahle quiet. The FBI had issued a national security letter to them under the Patriot Act. Kahle fought it. Hard. The EFF came to the aid of his lawyers and what resulted was one of the only three times an NSL has been challenged: all three have been rescinded. The FBI agreed to open some of the court files now for it to be public. The ACLU added, 'That makes you wonder about the the hundreds of thousands of NSLs that haven't been challenged.'"

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224 comments

It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Change (5, Insightful)

gnutoo (1154137) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330512)

A five year prison term might be preferable to experiences like this [wired.com] , especially when ratting out the FBI can save hundreds of thousands of innocent people from further constitutional abuse. I can not demand heroic action by others but I wish there had were more than three in the hundreds of thousands of abused citizens so far. Innocent people going to jail for protecting privacy of other innocent people would shut this monster program down fast.

Vote for anyone but Republicans in 2008 and vote out everyone who had anything to do with the poorly named Patriot act.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23330642)

That would be everyone in government of that time, except for Russ Feingold.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (5, Insightful)

NewbieProgrammerMan (558327) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330716)

That would be everyone in government of that time, except for Russ Feingold.
...and Ron Paul. I'm sure the very act of mentioning his name on Slashdot endangers my karma, but what the hell.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23331088)

That would be everyone in government of that time, except for Russ Feingold.
...and Ron Paul. I'm sure the very act of mentioning his name on Slashdot endangers my karma, but what the hell.
Funny. We all know that there are probably at least a couple thousand fanatical Paul supporters here that would gladly fellate him to completion given half a chance. And many more who would at least like to watch. Don't pretend you didn't know that either!

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (2, Funny)

NewbieProgrammerMan (558327) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331340)

Oh I know there's no shortage of fanatical Paul supporters, whose existence assures that Paul and other Libertarian candidates will never be elected to any office of significance.

I was trying to be funny. Apparently I misjudged my ability to make funny posts. Sorry.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23331212)

Posting anonymously because I moderated your post down.

I just wanted to explain why. I am sick of people acting persecuted and then hoping to get modded up for it. In actuality, ron paul has a lot of supporters, not that it mattered, your post was truthful and would probably have got +1 insightful from a few moderators.

But because you put in that whiny last line, you get modded down. But I guess you're ok with that since you "expected" it and all.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (0)

NewbieProgrammerMan (558327) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331282)

Actually I should have put a smiley or something at the end, because I just find it entertaining that some people become apoplectic at the mention of Ron Paul. I don't feel persecuted at all; I'm just a chain-puller who hoped somebody would post an entertaining screed of some sort. :P

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23331732)

nobody cares

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23331660)

Grandparent's point was that Feingold was the only Senator to vote against it [senate.gov] . There were also 66 Representatives who opposed it [house.gov] (mostly Democrats, but yes, including Ron Paul.)

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (4, Insightful)

ImaLamer (260199) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331736)

I guess there is one candidate for President that didn't vote for USAPATRIOT or the Iraq war...

But that's an exercise for the reader.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (5, Informative)

Maxmin (921568) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331918)

Obama didn't vote for either Patriot Act or the Iraq War ... because he wasn't in office at the time. He did, however, vote *against* reauthorizing the Patriot Act. He's also on the record opposing the Iraq War, though I don't have handy the details of his war appropriations voting record.

Interesting factoid about the Patriot Act: it was passed in a hurry (we all know), and it was presented as legal tools for fighting terrorists. Now, I'd be fine with that, on the face of it - however, DOJ has been heavily promoting it as set of laws (and amendments to existing laws) for fighting crime. Yes, they are promoting to district attorneys etc. using all those bypass-the-constitution-anti-terrorism goodies to inspect the accounts and lives of people who aren't suspected of terrorism.

In other words, the Patriot Act doubles as an end-run around the Constitution for ordinary criminal cases. When I mention this in conversation to folks, many of them say they think this is fine! I don't.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (1)

pmdkh (1180717) | more than 6 years ago | (#23332174)

FYI, Obama votes in favor of Iraq war appropriations.

Obama defends votes in favor of Iraq funding [boston.com]

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (4, Interesting)

Maxmin (921568) | more than 6 years ago | (#23332344)

Quoting from your link-

"I have been very clear even as a candidate that, once we were in, that we were going to have some responsibility to make it work as best we could, and more importantly that our troops had the best resources they needed to get home safely," Obama, an Illinois Democrat, told reporters in a conference call. "So I don't think there is any contradiction there."

It's the perennial question - how exactly do we exit Iraq? What's your idea? Me, I'm against the war, but I'm not for pulling out hastily. Because, I wonder what will happen... will more people die, will it be as many as the U.S. and its allies have killed already ... will there be further ethnic cleansing and displacement of people beyond the millions who've been "invited" to leave their homes, etc.

Help me Obi Wan.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (5, Insightful)

Rycross (836649) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330694)

Vote for anyone but Republicans in 2008 and vote out everyone who had anything to do with the poorly named Patriot act.

Personally, the voting record is more important to me than whether they have an R or D beside their name. If that means that I'm voting in Republicans then so be it. I'd rather have a Republican who refused to vote for the Patriot Act than a Democrat who dropped to his knees and pucked up to the Bush administration. Not that there are many Republicans who fit that description...

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23331120)

Vote for anyone but Republicans in 2008 and vote out everyone who had anything to do with the poorly named Patriot act.


Personally, the voting record is more important to me than whether they have an R or D beside their name. If that means that I'm voting in Republicans then so be it. I'd rather have a Republican who refused to vote for the Patriot Act than a Democrat who dropped to his knees and pucked up to the Bush administration. Not that there are many Republicans who fit that description...

Ron Paul is a republican who refused to vote for the Patriot Act.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (1)

MobyDisk (75490) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331780)

I thought that the Patriot Act was passed "unanimously" by a verbal vote or show of hands or something like that. I didn't think all votes were logged (which is absurd).

Maybe someone can correct me here?

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (4, Informative)

void* (20133) | more than 6 years ago | (#23332080)

Yes, the Senate approved the reauthorization unanimously.

However, Congress is two parts, the Senate, and the House of Representatives.

In the House of Representatives, Republicans voted 214 for, 14 against, Democrats 43 for, 156 against.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (5, Insightful)

rho (6063) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330750)

Resist the temptation to make this partisan. Democrats were perfectly willing to vote for the PATRIOT Act and then try to excuse their complicity after the fact. That is not a commendable act.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (4, Insightful)

Rycross (836649) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330796)

Or giving Bush a blank check to wage war for that matter. Not that I think that the Democrats are worse than the Republicans, on whole. I think the Republicans, as an organization, are definitely more corrupt. But the Democrats failed to take a solid stand when it mattered, and I'm not going to forget that, even if I vote Democrat out of necessity.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (1)

ady1 (873490) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330982)

"It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see ...the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people........ if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (5, Insightful)

Urza9814 (883915) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331292)

That's why you vote for Obama. Clinton supported the PATRIOT act. Clinton supported the war. Obama was against both of those. I was honestly planning on voting Libertarian, because I can't bring myself to vote for anyone who supports the PATRIOT act and all this other crap...but Obama fits that quite well.

Incorrect. (2, Informative)

3p1ph4ny (835701) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331504)

I'm not sure what kind of crack you're smoking, but Barack Obama voted to renew the PATRIOT act.

Re:Incorrect. (1)

phreakhead (881388) | more than 6 years ago | (#23332166)

He did vote for to renew, although he opposed its form at the time and proposed waiting to renew it so they could make it more sensible. A "compromise," he called it.

Source [senate.gov]

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23331546)

Yeah, but Obama hates progress and is a fan of throwing money at failed social programs. I'm sure forgoing investment in space which has only created tremendous wealth to throw money at bad teachers filling up child warehouses will be very effective. You know why good teachers make the news? Finding one is news. The vast majority of teachers are garbage, they can blame the system if they want, but given the strength of the teachers union again they need to look inward. For what they accomplish on average, they're overpaid.

I can't vote for McCain, or Clinton cause they're various shades of stupid or evil. Obama is a magnetic public speaker and due to his core constituancy would make changes that would ultimately only serve to increase poverty. Probably world wide. Garbage in garbage out. It's time to go back to the wisdom of Richard Pryor. If "None of the above" is good enough for the Hackensack Bulls, maybe it's just good enough, at least this year. At best Obama is a more attractive version of the same old whore. Some vision, some leadership. Wouldn't that be nice for a change? Until then, maybe if nothing goes in, garbage won't come out.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23332000)

The vast majority of teachers are garbage, they can blame the system if they want, but given the strength of the teachers union again they need to look inward. For what they accomplish on average, they're overpaid.
The failures of American education have nothing to do with the teachers. Thousands of teachers enter the field excited about what they are doing, and love it at first. Unfortunately, within a couple of years of dealing with the shit for brains asshats that make up the majority of their classes, it becomes apparent to them that they are not being paid to educate the children, they are being paid to keep them in one place and make sure they don't get into too much trouble. Hoping for anything more is foolish - you can't force children to value education when they are surrounded by a culture that considers smart people to be geek losers and football players to be heroes.

Make no mistake - the teachers unions have nothing to do with it. The students are more than capable of fucking it up all on their own, and tend to take pleasure in doing so.

[BTW, nope, I'm not a teacher, so this rant is not self serving at all; I'm just a product of and a witness to the system, and to me the educations that kids receive these days matches quite well what society considers to be "just right" - a generation of retard parents gives rise to a generation of retard kids, and anyone smarter than that average level of retardation has to really fight the system]

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (2)

Icegryphon (715550) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331392)

Oh I know you, you will forget it. Because some people let the same shit happen again and again. *Cough* CIA *cough* Clinton *cough* Extraordinary *cough* Rendition.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23331294)

There were plenty of House Democrats that voted against PATRIOT. My representative is one of those. However, it didn't matter, as the Republicans had the majority and few of them defected (did any of them defect?) to vote against it.

As far as the Senate goes, I'll agree.

And when the reauthorization came around, the Senate Democrats lost their spine again. The Republicans never gained a filibuster-proof majority, so there's really no excuse. It's just sheer incompetence.

I won't vote Republican for it, but I will vote for another Democratic or a third-party challenger to my two senators.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (1)

z80kid (711852) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331488)

I won't vote Republican for it, but I will vote for another Democratic or a third-party challenger to my two senators.

Good. Because they count on that when they vote.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (4, Interesting)

dbIII (701233) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331702)

Personally I think whoever chose the name of the bill and made sure it was rushed through without time for it to be read should be imprisoned as a driving force back to monarchy. Voting against it was deliberately made to look unpatriotic. Without being able to consider the content the vote was on the name alone - so the vote was along the lines of "do you want to look like a dirty commie or not? The guy that wants to be King says it's a good idea and if you go againt the King you go against the country".

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (5, Insightful)

niko9 (315647) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330822)

A five year prison term might be preferable to experiences like this [wired.com] , especially when ratting out the FBI can save hundreds of thousands of innocent people from further constitutional abuse. I can not demand heroic action by others but I wish there had were more than three in the hundreds of thousands of abused citizens so far. Innocent people going to jail for protecting privacy of other innocent people would shut this monster program down fast.


Vote for anyone but Republicans in 2008 and vote out everyone who had anything to do with the poorly named Patriot act.

You had me right up until "Vote for anyone but Republicans...

Us against them. Good over evil. With or against us. Sheep think in those terms.

The emotional rhetoric from politicians never ends and their simple minded constituents emulate that behavior instead of engaging in critical thinking.

You do realize that there were PLENTY of Democrats that had voted for the Patriot Act. Hell, IIRC 99% of Congress didn't even read the God damn thing!

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (4, Informative)

wwahammy (765566) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331490)

Nobody read it. The Senate received the bill at 6 AM for a 9 AM vote. The bill ran to hundreds of pages. Not one member of Congress could have read it and understood the consequences of the bill in less than 3 hours.

Russ Feingold said at the time he wasn't necessarily opposed to the bill but couldn't vote for something with such sweeping changes without having time to read or research it. He has said since then that after reviewing it he supports about 95% of the things in the bill. He strongly opposes that other 5% that is total crap.

Man I love having him as my Senator :)

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (1, Insightful)

arodland (127775) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331492)

So vote for anyone except Republicans and Democrats. Actually... don't vote. It's a scam.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23331970)

If you don't vote, you have no right to complain about the government in power. You had your chance, and you chose to waste it.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (4, Insightful)

hxnwix (652290) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331808)

You had me right up until "Vote for anyone but Republicans..." Sheep think in those terms.
And you had me right up until "sheep think in those terms."

Republicans are well known for holding the line and sticking to their talking points. They've worked hard to earn this reputation, and there's no reason to forget that they've repeatedly unified behind awful ideas.

Obama voted against the AUMF and filibustered the permanent reauthorization of the PATRIOT act. Additionally, he wont be tempted to hold the Republican line, seeing as how he is a Democrat.

The same logic applies to other good Democrats. It works against the Republicans - we need look no farther than Ron Paul to see what happens to Republicans who respect the constitution and the rule of law.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (-1, Flamebait)

OeLeWaPpErKe (412765) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330906)

Vote for anyone but Republicans in 2008 and vote out everyone who had anything to do with the poorly named Patriot act.

So that the NSL's get expanded to include "hate speech" ? Not just supressing that someone is being investigated (very reasonable thing to do, you don't let suspects know they're being tailed), to include the spreading of "hate-speech" political ideas.

That would be *so* much better.

You know, because that worked out so well in the Weimar republic.

Why exactly should the police inform single people that they're being watched to see if they want to kill others ?

Ow all "hate speech" as deemed acceptable or not by the democratic party obviously. Let's illustrate :

"We will help God destroy the 'white enemy'" (not hate speech)
"If God is not for us and against white people," writes Cone, "then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill gods who do not belong to the black community." (not hate speech)
"Hmmm it seems that a lot of these terrorists are muslims ... how strange" (hate speech)

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23331250)

very reasonable thing to do, you don't let suspects know they're being tailed

Your ludicrous racist bullshit (I bet you didn't know that there were WHITE terrorists too, and some of them don't even try to use their religion as an excuse!) aside, just remember that the hundreds of thousands of people who got NSL'd, did so WITHOUT OVERSIGHT. There was no "probable cause", there was no warrant, there was nothing but your tax money going into a giant sucking hole. We already had an article here on telcos disconnecting wiretaps because of FBI agents "forgetting" to pay for them (where did the money go? Without oversight, do the feds even know?)

"Hmmm it seems that a lot of these terrorists are muslims ... how strange" (hate speech)

Not hate speech, it just marks you as a retard, unfit to defend our country against the likes of Timothy McVeigh and others [trinicenter.com] .

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23332182)

So that the NSL's get expanded to include "hate speech" ? Not just supressing that someone is being investigated (very reasonable thing to do, you don't let suspects know they're being tailed), to include the spreading of "hate-speech" political ideas.
I believe it's traditional to hold off on the slippery-slope accusations against the "other" party at least until your party stops sliding themselves...so far, all of the nightmares that Democrats always had about Republican rule have pretty much come true. Most of the predictions about the disaster that Bush's policies would bring have been dead on. Here's something to keep in mind: it's not that liberals think that just because a Muslim/black person says something it's not hate speech. It's that we don't want you shitting all over everything non-white and non-Christian for that reason alone. A lot of us are not white and a lot of us are not Christian. And despite what a lot of neo-conservatives think, we have just as much a right to freedom as you do. We should not be automatically considered un-American because we are not just like you. If you doubt that we have something to fear, maybe a Bush Sr. quote is appropriate: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." The current right wing has a theocracy in mind, and that's F-U-C-K-E-D.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (2, Insightful)

BcNexus (826974) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330934)

At this point in my life, I wouldn't mind going to prison for five years for violating an NSL gag order, as long as I was able to tell the public what the hell the FBI wanted. I don't have kids or family to support, and only student loans debt.

Yes, using intelligence and technology (2, Interesting)

FromTheAir (938543) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330950)

We live with systems based on fictions and it is time for the truth to prevail. No govenment, army or police power can stop 100 million people acting in unity. We need to transfer power to the collective eliminting egoic intentions and special interests from warping insitituions, industries, and professions. Paramount to the success of the collective is the preservation of the liberties of the individual, the freedom of expression and the pursuit of happiness with no fear of persecution. For it is the pioneer, radical, outcast, eccentric, rebel, non-conformist, and those that question the status quo that are essential to the evolution of mankind, the collective, being they are the impetus for change, discovery, and invention needed to adapt and evolve

Re:Yes, using intelligence and technology (1)

Obfuscant (592200) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331614)

You think out of 100 million people, nobody will be having "egoic intentions"?

You think out of 100 million people, they won't pass laws that suppress, repress, digress, and every other 'ess, those who make up the other 150 or more million in this country?

The "pioneer, radical, outcast" you claim are essential simply won't be part of any collective.

The impetus for change comes from inside. Kruschev said he'd bury us. He banged his shoe on the lecturn. Banging his shoe on the lecturn did nothing. It's the slow erosion from minor changes that are doing the burying. It's the frog in the pot syndrome.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (3, Insightful)

teebob21 (947095) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330974)

I agree with you that heroic stands need to be made in the face of abuses of constitutional rights; in fact, I wholeheartedly agree with the entire first paragraph. However, even though this will get modded down into oblivion, your final sentence ruins the entire spirit of the post, turning it from an insightful, inspriational comment into a partisan insult. (Disclaimer: I am not affiliated or registered with any major party, though I did vote for Bush in 2000) Abuses of personal privacy by the FBI/CIA are nothing new, and cannot be blamed on either the national Republican party or those Congress-critters who voted for the Patriot Act while the rubble of the WTC was still being cleared from the ashes.

I agree that major sections of the Patriot Act brush up against the grayest of gray areas in the realm of constitutional law, and that they should be revisited and even repealed. Given time, any reactionary measure should be reviewed and revised. Emotions and political actions do not observe Newton's laws of motion. If anything, each action is met with an underwhelming lack of reaction (Katrina and the Gulf Coast) or an overzealous attempt to keep anything bad from happening again, ever, at any cost (America: Sept. 12, 2001-present). There is precious little middle ground when an appropriate response is ever made.

See the Patriot Act for what it was in historical terms: a reactionary measure passed and supported by representatives of a hurting, angry nation. Considering the national mood at the time, it was the "right" thing to do: Americans were more than happy to give up essential liberties for Bush's promise of temporary security. His approval ratings set new historical record highs in the weeks immediately following the 9/11 attacks and the start of the Afghan war.

These metrics cannot be blamed on the whole of the Republican party or on the Congress seated in 2001-2002. Instead blame the current administration for continuing to act as though we are attacked on our soil on a daily basis, more than 6 years after those attacks. The Dubya Bush administration is like a paranoid meth addict, convinced that there is someone right there hiding who might "endangerfy our American way of life". While legitimate threats exist both inside and outside our borders, a bombing, the destruction of a major landmark or building, even a massive attack that cripples or destroys a city will not change our way of life. America will go on; hopefully, continuing to uphold and honor our constitutional rights.

Perhaps the saddest part of 9/11 is that the attacks themselves did not change America's way of life. America's panicky reaction and an adminstration that used this panic to grant itself unsupervised and unconstitutional executive powers changed our American way of life. Such results can not be blamed on the current Republican national party, nor on Al Qaeda, nor on the Reps or the Dems who supported the original Patriot Act. Full responsibility should rest squarely on the man in the White House. George W. Bush has preyed on the fears of the population in every speech and policy for years, reaping the benefits of governing a nation of sheeple. He has made his legacy from this, and it will not be remembered fondly in years to come.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (4, Insightful)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331240)

The Dubya Bush administration is like a paranoid meth addict

Yes. But not because of the attacks anymore, they fear you, their people. And it's not an isolated phenomenon. You can see it all over the "western" world, with more and more paranoid surveillance laws coming into existance. Most of them targeting the internet, which is a perfect tool to assemble and organize people of the same interests. Interests that may and often do go diametrally against the goals of our governments.

The advantage governments have over their subjects is that they are organized. No, don't laugh, I know how bureaucracy weighs it down, but they have the advantage of having trained specialists in every field necessary. Something you don't have. You are not a lawyer, bureaucrat, IT professional, PR guru and fundraiser all rolled into one. That's what gives your government an edge over you (in case one wants to stand up against the government). With the internet, people can organize and gain access to the same specialists the government has.

The same holds true for corporations, btw.

Now, the internet also allows organisation of partisan groups who won't just fight with legal means but also illegal ones. And that's what they're really afraid of. Since they already managed to bleed the "lower incomes" completely dry, not only siphoning away the little rest of their savings but also pushing them so deeply into debt that they can't spend anymore, the meager rest of the middle class is the next target. The divide between rich and poor opens wider, the number of poor people growing, and it's a matter of time until the mob reaches critical mass again. Their attempt with the increased surveillance is to make sure it's easy to identify the "heads" of such movements and decapitate them before they can gain momentum.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23331426)

Full responsibility should rest squarely on the man in the White House.

Nope. Bad analogy to illustrate why you're wrong about this: let's say you have a 10 year old son (let's call him Bart) and you suggest that you'd change roles for a day so that he learns how hard it is to be a parent. Instead of trying to fit your role, he instead messes up the house, sets the cat on fire, annoys the neighbors, unsettles your closest friends, attacks the candy store with bags of dog poo and causes general mischief all over the city. Bart's fault, or should you have intervened before too much damage was done? Just a thought.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (5, Insightful)

OldFish (1229566) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331474)

See the Patriot Act for what it was in historical terms: a reactionary measure passed and supported by representatives of a hurting, angry nation. Considering the national mood at the time, it was the "right" thing to do: Americans were more than happy to give up essential liberties for Bush's promise of temporary security. His approval ratings set new historical record highs in the weeks immediately following the 9/11 attacks and the start of the Afghan war.
You are being naive. Passage of the Act was actively exploitative of a shocked and fearful nation. It was a massive power grab timed to take advantage of a disoriented country. You are too easy on the perpetrators of the anti-Constitution Patriot Act.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23332192)

I am not affiliated or registered with any major party, though I did vote for Bush in 2000

Why do you hate America?

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331102)

What this really needs is a logo. Something people recognize and associate with determination. I'd vote for a hand holding a HD and "from my cold, dead hands" written below it.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (3, Insightful)

Qzukk (229616) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331262)

"Don't Tread on Me".

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (1)

k1e0x (1040314) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331316)

You think democrats will get rid of it.. ha. Vote them ALL out.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23331480)

Gross generalizations like yours GnuTOOL are equally damaging to civil liberty. NO party and NO president can ever be wholly responsible for what millions of reactionary xenophobes choose to create for themselves.

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23331878)

Posting anonymous because I moderated in this thread.

When 9/11 happened, I was as shocked and angry as anyone could be, and wanted to get the person/people involved. This Osama Bin Laden character came out quickly as the chief suspect.

9/15 or so (eh - few days later. Whatever.) I was standing in line at Sam's Club, and the guy behind me strikes up a conversation with me for the sole purpose of telling me that if HE ever sees one of Those Towelheads, he'll "run 'em over with his truck". As badly as I felt because of 9/11, I remember being shocked that someone would advocate the random vigilante killing of another person who likely had nothing to do with it. At the time I just smiled and said "Yeah? Huh." and tried to avoid eye contact.

There aren't many people in that frame of mind anymore, as far as I can tell. I think that guy was just running his mouth, and probably never would have done it in reality, but the fact that random homicide was something to be bragged about to strangers at that time really says a lot about the emotions that were running through the country. Worse, because the guy saying it was probably a decent guy overall, but had gotten all caught up in the spirit of shock, anger, and later patriotism and desire for vengeance.

That wave of emotion was what drove through the Patriot Act without its even being read, and it's what will always keep cooler heads from prevailing. I, personally, have learned from the experience just how dangerous those emotions can be, and to always be on guard when a politician invokes them. Unfortunately, the guy at Sam's Club is probably none the wiser, and has probably totally forgotten I ever existed.

So I think you're right. No one party or president can be blamed for what has happened. We the people not only accepted it, we asked for it. We cried for blood when ours was taken -- and who can blame us? That our politicians took advantage of the situation and created inappropriate responses makes it no less our fault.

-CrazedWalrus

Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (4, Insightful)

pilgrim23 (716938) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331558)

Why does this remind me of the "lettre de cachet"? -a fill-in-the-blank warrant the rent a thug is sent out with where he fills it in as he needs. France got rid of them in 1790, our Constitution has provisions against this. Now all it takes is a Lawer with a power tie and a BIC Pen to ruin your life.
Welcome to the Land of the Free.....Have you any rights to declare?

It's time for moderation change (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23332094)

Vote for anyone but Republicans in 2008 and vote out everyone who had anything to do with the poorly named Patriot act.

Too bad you ended with this gem. It's obvious you were just itching to get your partisan line in, probably in total ignorance as to who voted for the Patriot Act.

This is not a republican or democratic problem. If you can't see the malaise that is affecting our country regardless of who you vote for, then you are beyond help and nothing more than a partisan hack. Those are a dime a dozen these days, if you haven't noticed.

Sigh. Another ill-informed but impressive-looking rant gets modded up so that it shows in the default page view (which is how I found it). And so it goes, as usual.

Issue A National Securty Letter For (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23330540)



George W. Bush et al. [whitehouse.org] .

They are using their elected positions to trade financial markets.

Mr. Peabody would be proud (4, Funny)

Presto Vivace (882157) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330572)

well done Internet Archive.

Re:Mr. Peabody would be proud (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23331664)

Everyone who has been served a NSL and fought it instead of just caving in should be loudly and widely acclaimed for the true patriot that they are. Wish appropriate media and organizations would realize that and act. An 800 number to a fast react legal team set up to fight NSL's with wide spread info on them would help too. No doubt that number would end up wiretapped of course.

Congress stopped many portions of the bill from lapsing in 2005. The passed a slightly modified version of the bill again in 2006. We need to let Congress know it's past time to make all such unPatriotic Acts go away as they should never have been passed in the first place.

re (1)

JohnVanVliet (945577) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330600)

it might be time to start challenging every single one of them and put some LIGHT onto it

Stupid Questions (5, Interesting)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330684)

I thought you couldn't discuss a NSL, so how would we know that hundreds of thousands of them have been issued?

Are they tracked somewhere publicly, and wouldn't that defeat the whole point of being secret about them?

And given that these are clear-cut violations of free speech, how is it that the entire NSL program still exists? The first time one of these was challenged, I thought any judge worth their salt would declare the NSL anti-constitutional.

Re:Stupid Questions (1)

Aranykai (1053846) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330736)

It boils down to trade liberty for security.
I'm in no way condoning their actions, but its human nature to "cheat" or "lie" just a little for the better good. However, in this case, its affecting more people that most realize.

Re:Stupid Questions (2, Insightful)

Brandano (1192819) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331006)

It's been repeated to death, but that was an obvious prompting: "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither" Thomas Jefferson, American 3rd US President (1801-09). Author of the Declaration of Independence. 1762-1826

Re:Stupid Questions (4, Informative)

Gat0r30y (957941) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330772)

The first time one of these was challenged, I thought any judge worth their salt would declare the NSL anti-constitutional.
Already happened [aclu.org] To quote:

In September 2004, Judge Victor Marrero of the Southern District of New York issued a landmark decision striking down the NSL statute and the associated gag provision. In striking down the gag provision, Judge Marrero wrote: "Democracy abhors undue secrecy. . . . [A]n unlimited government warrant to conceal, effectively a form of secrecy per se, has no place in our open society." The government has said it will appeal Judge Marrero's decision. Accordingly, the case is likely to be before the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit in early 2005.
So maybe someday it will get before an appeals court, and then maybe someday much later, there is the possibility it could go before the supreme court, if they would hear it. Then it could be struck down.

Re:Stupid Questions (1)

Reality Master 201 (578873) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330828)

Interesting idea. I imagine a lot of what the Supreme Court will do about these NSLs depends on who's in the White House come next year; both in terms of nominating replacement Justices and in terms of the Justices not wanting to hand too much power to someone they don't want to have it.

Re:Stupid Questions (4, Informative)

dgatwood (11270) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330914)

The problem is all the "ifs" in that. "If" the Supreme Court grants certiorari.... That's such a big "if" that it's not even funny.... They've proven remarkably resistant to any attempts to strike down challenges to the "Patriot" Act in the past, up to and including the refusal to grant standing for a challenge to anyone who could not prove that their privacy had been violated in the wire tapping case.

There are just too many Bush nominees on the court for this to get struck down as unconstitutional. Bush could probably wipe his backside with the Constitution, then declare martial law and postpone the election and they probably wouldn't overrule him....

Re:Stupid Questions (1)

Gat0r30y (957941) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330988)

Sure, they may be Bush nominees, but its really pretty clear that this is unconstitutional - I cannot imagine even Scalia arguing that this is constitutional. Even a cursory glance by a fair court should (thats a big should) strike this down.

Misplaced confidence (1)

cheros (223479) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331350)

Given the large amount of NSLs that have been issued it would be fair to suspect that if anyone wanted to act on this abuse it would have happened by now. Instead it takes pressure from outside the system to start addressing this - that sort of says it all, no?

Re:Misplaced confidence (2, Insightful)

Qzukk (229616) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331596)

that sort of says it all, no?

The three that challenged it broke the "law" by so much as telling their lawyer that they had received The Letter. I'm sure that if The Letters permitted people to discuss them, more than three people would have spoken to their lawyers and done something about it.

Re:Stupid Questions (1)

nexuspal (720736) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331008)

Wow, I never thought of the postpone the elections part... Maybe that comes after the "War" with Iran...

Re:Stupid Questions (1)

maxume (22995) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331400)

There would be a rebellion.

I would guess that at least 1/3 of the military would end up as rebels.

It won't happen.

Re:Stupid Questions (4, Interesting)

dgatwood (11270) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330844)

The first time one of these was challenged, I thought any judge worth their salt would declare the NSL anti-constitutional.

You'd think that, but you'd be forgetting that the courts have been packed by Republicans for the last 7 1/2 years, and cumulatively, 19/12 out of the last 28 years. The courts are no more able to defend civil liberties than we are at this point; they have been too thoroughly packed with people for whom civil liberties is a dirty word associated with "flaming liberals" and "tree hugging hippies".

Yes, the NSLs are blatantly unconstitutional and represent a direct attack upon the rights of individuals to be free from unreasonable search and seizure, among other things. They also dramatically expand the power of the government to monitor the citizenry in ways that the Constitution never intended to allow and, indeed, which could not reasonably have been foreseen by the funding fathers at all. This is why the Constitution must be a living document that must be periodically revisited and updated by people whose goal is preserving liberty, not concentrating government power. Unfortunately, the Constitution's fatal flaw is that the only way it recognizes for updating the constitution is through a process that does not readily allow for apolitical review (well, not counting judicial enhancement of the Constitution through binding precedents).

For the Constitution to truly be effective, it needs a procedure for review and amendment that formally allows for and defines the process for constitutional conventions and public referendums so that a proposed Constitutional amendment, upon receiving a 2/3rds of the popular vote in two consecutive election cycles, becomes ratified without the need to go through Congress or the state governments (but subject to judicial findings of unconstitutionality if it violates any fundamental Constitutional principles). Only then can the Constitution be a truly living document that protects civil liberties in the face of those who would turn our government into a totalitarian regime, given the opportunity.

Re:Stupid Questions (4, Insightful)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331228)

cumulatively, 19/12 out of the last 28 years.

*thinks a moment* So... 44 1/3rd years? Hehe, jk.

They also dramatically expand the power of the government to monitor the citizenry in ways that the Constitution never intended to allow and, indeed, which could not reasonably have been foreseen by the funding fathers at all.

They didn't have to, any more than they had to foresee telephone or e-mail tapping, because the wording of the 4th Amendment is technology agnostic. That's the way it should be. That's why when a case of warrantless e-mail reading came before the court, the judge ruled that this was illegal. Without having to have a whole Constitutional amendment just for email (and one for text messaging, and one for IM, etc etc etc).

We don't need any change to the Constitution whatsoever to stop these abuses. We just need for the Constitution as written to be enforced. That is the problem, and making it easier to modify the Constitution would not make it more likely to be enforced. We already have an amendment that covers these situations; if you think the problem is stacked courts, why do you think they would enforce some new amendment that covers the exact same thing?

The only thing it would make more likely is that when another "ZOMG teh terrists are attacking! I can has ur liberties?" moment occurs, the people will not only allow it, they will enshrine it in the highest law of our land. At least USAPATRIOT expires, and parts of it have already had rulings against it as constitutional. You can't rule an amendment unconstitutional; and amendment is constitutional by definition.

Our system isn't perfect, but our Constitution is damn good and one of its strengths is that it can't be changed easily.

Re:Stupid Questions (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331570)

In all fairness, both parties trample on the Constitution, and the Supreme Court is usually fairly balanced between the two parties.

I'd also contend that most people in this country consider Republican a dirty word these days, not hippy or liberal.

Re:Stupid Questions (1, Insightful)

TheSkyIsPurple (901118) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331980)

>You'd think that, but you'd be forgetting that the courts have been packed by Republicans for the last 7 1/2 years,

You know it's possible to be a Republican and actually support the constitution, right?

Re:Stupid Questions (3, Insightful)

oodaloop (1229816) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331140)

I thought you couldn't discuss a NSL, so how would we know that hundreds of thousands of them have been issued?
That number bothers me too. I think it's just an arbitrary large round number the ACLU used to emphasize their point. There were probably a large number, out of which some number were unwarranted, but these exaggerations don't help anyone.

Re:Stupid Questions (4, Insightful)

whathappenedtomonday (581634) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331196)

how would we know that hundreds of thousands of them have been issued? Are they tracked somewhere publicly, and wouldn't that defeat the whole point of being secret about them?

I'm not saying that sometimes it helps to actually RTFA, but anyway:

Though FBI guidelines on using NSLs warned of overusing them, two Congressionally ordered audits revealed that the FBI had issued hundreds of illegal requests for student health records, telephone records and credit reports. The reports also found that the FBI had issued hundreds of thousands of NSLs since 2001, but failed to track their use. In a letter to Congress last week, the FBI admitted it can only estimate how many NSLs it has issued.

Unconstitutional or not, the whole NSL / PATRIOT stuff screams "abuse me" at 130dB.

Re:Stupid Questions (3, Funny)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331708)

Unconstitutional or not, the whole NSL / PATRIOT stuff screams "abuse me" at 130dB.

Well it did, but then it received an NSL gag order.

Re:Stupid Questions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23332282)

Unconstitutional or not, the whole NSL / PATRIOT stuff screams "abuse me" at 130dB

Pfft. Just wait until they turn it all the way up to 11.

Re:Stupid Questions (4, Funny)

Sponge Bath (413667) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331266)

I thought you couldn't discuss a NSL...

You are probably thinking of Fight Club, the US government is committed to transparency and the rule of law.

Re:Stupid Questions (3, Funny)

cobaltnova (1188515) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331836)

I thought you couldn't discuss a NSL...

You are probably thinking of Fight Club,
+2 Insightful

the US government is committed to transparency and the rule of law.
+3 Funny

Seriously, with abuses like the Patriot Act and NSLs, I can't help but chuckle.

Re:Stupid Questions (4, Informative)

tjohns (657821) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331326)

I thought you couldn't discuss a NSL, so how would we know that hundreds of thousands of them have been issued?

According to Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] , semi-annual reports need to be made to congress, including a non-classified count of National Security Letters issued.

The US Department of Justice also performed an audit [usdoj.gov] in 2007 that contains some more statistics.

Re:Stupid Questions (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331586)

Thanks! I probably should have checked Wikipedia myself.

So much for telco immunity (5, Insightful)

KingSkippus (799657) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330702)

Boy, I'm sure the telcos are hating this. This story shows once and for all that "the government told me to" is not a valid excuse for violating civil rights.

Re:So much for telco immunity (0)

Presto Vivace (882157) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330810)

wow, good catch

GOD defeating unprecedented evile using.... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23330752)

newclear powered kode base. it's absolutely fool-proof, & there's never a payper liesense fee, or cover charge. see you there? let yOUR conscience be yOUR guide. you can be more helpful than you might have imagined. there are still some choices. if they do not suit you, consider the likely results of continuing to follow the corepirate nazi hypenosys story LIEn, whereas anything of relevance is replaced almost instantly with pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking propaganda or 'celebrity' trivia 'foam'. meanwhile; don't forget to get a little more oxygen on yOUR brain, & look up in the sky from time to time, starting early in the day. there's lots going on up there.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071229/ap_on_sc/ye_climate_records;_ylt=A0WTcVgednZHP2gB9wms0NUE
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080108/ts_alt_afp/ushealthfrancemortality;_ylt=A9G_RngbRIVHsYAAfCas0NUE
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/31/opinion/31mon1.html?em&ex=1199336400&en=c4b5414371631707&ei=5087%0A

is it time to get real yet? A LOT of energy is being squandered in attempts to keep US in the dark. in the end (give or take a few 1000 years), the creators will prevail (world without end, etc...), as it has always been. the process of gaining yOUR release from the current hostage situation may not be what you might think it is. butt of course, most of US don't know, or care what a precarious/fatal situation we're in. for example; the insidious attempts by the felonious corepirate nazi execrable to block the suns' light, interfering with a requirement (sunlight) for us to stay healthy/alive. it's likely not good for yOUR health/memories 'else they'd be bragging about it? we're intending for the whoreabully deceptive (they'll do ANYTHING for a bit more monIE/power) felons to give up/fail even further, in attempting to control the 'weather', as well as a # of other things/events.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=video+cloud+spraying

dictator style micro management has never worked (for very long). it's an illness. tie that with life0cidal aggression & softwar gangster style bullying, & what do we have? a greed/fear/ego based recipe for disaster. meanwhile, you can help to stop the bleeding (loss of life & limb);

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/28/vermont.banning.bush.ap/index.html

the bleeding must be stopped before any healing can begin. jailing a couple of corepirate nazi hired goons would send a clear message to the rest of the world from US. any truthful look at the 'scorecard' would reveal that we are a society in decline/deep doo-doo, despite all of the scriptdead pr ?firm? generated drum beating & flag waving propaganda that we are constantly bombarded with. is it time to get real yet? please consider carefully ALL of yOUR other 'options'. the creators will prevail. as it has always been.

corepirate nazi execrable costs outweigh benefits
(Score:-)mynuts won, the king is a fink)
by ourselves on everyday 24/7

as there are no benefits, just more&more death/debt & disruption. fortunately there's an 'army' of light bringers, coming yOUR way. the little ones/innocents must/will be protected. after the big flash, ALL of yOUR imaginary 'borders' may blur a bit? for each of the creators' innocents harmed in any way, there is a debt that must/will be repaid by you/us, as the perpetrators/minions of unprecedented evile, will not be available. 'vote' with (what's left in) yOUR wallet, & by your behaviors. help bring an end to unprecedented evile's manifestation through yOUR owned felonious corepirate nazi glowbull warmongering execrable. some of US should consider ourselves somewhat fortunate to be among those scheduled to survive after the big flash/implementation of the creators' wwwildly popular planet/population rescue initiative/mandate. it's right in the manual, 'world without end', etc.... as we all ?know?, change is inevitable, & denying/ignoring gravity, logic, morality, etc..., is only possible, on a temporary basis. concern about the course of events that will occur should the life0cidal execrable fail to be intervened upon is in order. 'do not be dismayed' (also from the manual). however, it's ok/recommended, to not attempt to live under/accept, fauxking nazi felon greed/fear/ego based pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking hypenosys.

consult with/trust in yOUR creators. providing more than enough of everything for everyone (without any distracting/spiritdead personal gain motives), whilst badtolling unprecedented evile, using an unlimited supply of newclear power, since/until forever. see you there?

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

meanwhile, the life0cidal philistines continue on their path of death, debt, & disruption for most of US. gov. bush denies health care for the little ones;

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/03/bush.veto/index.html

whilst demanding/extorting billions to paint more targets on the bigger kids;

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/12/bush.war.funding/index.html

& pretending that it isn't happening here;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3086937.ece
all is not lost/forgotten/forgiven

(yOUR elected) president al gore (deciding not to wait for the much anticipated 'lonesome al answers yOUR questions' interview here on /.) continues to attempt to shed some light on yOUR foibles. talk about reverse polarity;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article3046116.ece

Re:GOD defeating unprecedented evile using.... (3, Insightful)

Wandering Wombat (531833) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330792)

Can someone send him a letter telling him to shut up?

Re:GOD defeating unprecedented evile using.... (1)

moderatorrater (1095745) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330864)

Is it really constitutional or moral to ask him to shut up? Let yOur Conscience be YouR guiDe.

Re:GOD defeating unprecedented evile using.... (3, Insightful)

Digi-John (692918) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330922)

Actually, except for the biblical references it seemed pretty much like your standard basement-dweller's +4 Insightful rant. I think if he got a user account, dropped the religious stuff, and started bashing on the President more directly, he'd have the makings of a top Slashdot political commentator.

Re:GOD defeating unprecedented evile using.... (2, Funny)

Tenebrousedge (1226584) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330990)

What is this, a kookiest rant competition? I thought that event was celebrated later in the year. Personally, I'd like to see this guy and twitter in a cage match...

Re:GOD defeating unprecedented evile using.... (1)

compro01 (777531) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331276)

i have a strong suspicion that thing is the result of some kind of AI research experiment.

A true Patriot - protecting our freedom (5, Insightful)

FromTheAir (938543) | more than 6 years ago | (#23330880)

The greatest threat to our nation is secret police powers because it allows a small group of people to take control of the government and eliminate any opposition. It is a much greater threat than any of the fictional threats.

Allowing small group of people that benefit disproportionably to the many, to create an indentured servitude is not patriotic, fighting it is. The maintaining of the separation of powers, protecting the Bill of Rights, and the Constitution as well as defending them is the is the ultimate Patriotic Act.

It is time for transfer of power from the few to the many, the wise (conservative) and those that value freedom (liberal), and those that value both, (party free independents for collective control).

Laws of changed such that we have become cattle simply to be herded and this is most unpatriotic.

Re:A true Patriot - protecting our freedom (3, Insightful)

oodaloop (1229816) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331218)

The maintaining of the separation of powers, protecting the Bill of Rights, and the Constitution as well as defending them is the is the ultimate Patriotic Act.
I'm no fan of the Patriot Act, but I'd just like to point out something that bothers me. It seems the people on the left most vocal about defending the Constitution and the intent of its founders are the ones most determined to destroy its second amendment. Our founders intended us to have freedom of speech, to be free from unreasonable search and seizure, and to be able to have military weapons to defend ourselves and our nation. It's one package.

Re:A true Patriot - protecting our freedom (3, Insightful)

SpaceLifeForm (228190) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331894)

Nice strawman. Got any proof?

In "unrelated" news... (5, Funny)

fahrbot-bot (874524) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331074)

Newest entry on US no-fly list: Brewster Kahle

There's one way to stop this nonsense. (1)

blair1q (305137) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331108)

Vote the Republicans out of the White House. Then the deceptively-named USA PATRIOT act can be repealed in its entirety, and America can go back to being America.

Re:There's one way to stop this nonsense. (1)

/dev/trash (182850) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331724)

Uh. What's stopping Congress from doing that now?

Re:There's one way to stop this nonsense. (2, Insightful)

MulluskO (305219) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331954)

A narrow majority and the president's veto authority.

Of course, a principled conservative might oppose the patriot act in support of smaller government, but conservatives are on the whole unprincipled.

Slashdot is the the best (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23331258)

I can see the the /. editors are hard at work as usual.

Some numbers and information on the NSL (2, Informative)

solweil (1168955) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331274)

Here is the URL of March 2007 " A Review of the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Use of National Security Letters" published by the Office of the Inspector General. Note section IV, "Improper or Illegal Use of National Security Letter Authorities." http://cryptome.org/fbi-nsl/fbi-nsl.htm [cryptome.org] A link to the pdf is available there as well.

politology (if exists) (1)

lorenzo.boccaccia (1263310) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331308)

I think that Separation of Powers as a model for governance has repeatedly proved wrong and easy to be abused, as one of the power always tend to overcome the others in the long run, degenerating in police states, dictatorships or martial states. It seems a balanced system but in the struggle of personal power people tend to introduce shortcuts and instability on the system, be it unwarranted wiretapping power, law enforcement operation censorship, law tailored to save a particular interest, courts chess game to set favorable precedents.
Note also that historically people was always the sweet spot for abuse in every system. People could not find self motivation in communist regimes, enlightened democracies based upon the power of reason crumbled for the lack of reasonable people, romantic democracies ideals crumbled under exploitation by power parties and so on. And I fear the next generation of illuminated peopeless mode of government, for those will be exploitable in every other way not already tried in standard systems (bribery, fear, propaganda, etc)

How is judicial oversight and transparency bad? (4, Insightful)

LockeOnLogic (723968) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331410)

I recognize the fact that there are times in which the violation of privacy and the suspension of certain rights are necessary for security reasons. However, I have never heard a valid reason as to how judicial oversight and transparency interferes with this. In what way does due process hinder investigations? Is it a time efficiency thing? No problem, lets streamline the process and allocate more resources to quicken it. Will it clue in those being investigated? No problem, we could have clauses which delay but never prevent full disclosure. Why does does this kind of request NEED to be secret? The only conclusion I can draw is that it must be secret because it is illegal.

Stazi Police (1)

EEPROMS (889169) | more than 6 years ago | (#23331590)

Its getting so bad that many of the details found on the Stazi police wiki entry [wikipedia.org] can be cut and pasted straight into the FBI wiki.

More info from EFF, ACLU and Internet Archive (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23331668)


The court documents are available as well as other information.

We hope this helps de-spook some of these demands and encourages other libraries and recipients to consult lawyers and consider their alternatives.

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=192021

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  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
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