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Techies Keen to Keep Jobs In the Family

timothy posted more than 6 years ago | from the do-you-feel-the-same-way dept.

Software 260

Stony Stevenson writes "IT staff are 'overwhelmingly' happy to recommend their profession to their children, a survey has found. Three-quarters of nearly 1,000 IT professionals surveyed said that they would 'definitely recommend' a career in the business to their offspring. Around 70 percent also felt that their jobs are secure, and that they are expecting a salary increase next year. The survey also found that 86 per cent of respondents expect to move jobs voluntarily in the next three years."

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Rebellion (5, Funny)

peipas (809350) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408500)

You have this idea of how your child should be and what they should like, and then they shatter your dreams when they start playing sports and getting girlfriends.

Re:Rebellion (2, Interesting)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408522)

To hell with the tech industry.

Being a professional artist is where it's at. You all laugh, but know that automation will replace you all much sooner than it will replace the artist.

Muah ha ha.

Re:Rebellion (5, Insightful)

CogDissident (951207) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408554)

Sure it will. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_art [wikipedia.org]

Re:Rebellion (3, Insightful)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408674)

That's simply typing in a formula and having a computer do the work for you -- it's scientific visualization which happens to be art by accident. I was thinking more along the lines of analog art like using manual paint and brushes, or a chisel and sandpaper, or maybe a blowtorch or some scrap, maybe a piano. Even Photoshop or Draw! Nobody "created" the fractal, it was already there.

Re:Rebellion (3, Interesting)

CogDissident (951207) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408798)

Art made by a computer, with no formula. Enjoy. http://onionesquereality.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/swarm-paintings-non-human-art/ [wordpress.com]

Re:Rebellion (1)

dgatwood (11270) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409010)

I think this further supports the theory that computers are not ready to become artists... unless your idea of good art is a Jackson Pollock painting....

Re:Rebellion (1)

wozzinator (1079319) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409356)

Well, he is one of the most famous artists in history....

Re:Rebellion (2, Interesting)

xaxa (988988) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409210)

More art made by a computer:
http://www.thepaintingfool.com/ [thepaintingfool.com]

It's impressive!

Electric Sheep (5, Interesting)

aztektum (170569) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408784)

Coolest screensaver ever. In the ~4 years since I first downloaded it, I've run it at work, on my laptop... always get positive comments.

http://www.electricsheep.org/ [electricsheep.org]

Re:Rebellion (1)

maxume (22995) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408650)

Most people have more mass-produced objects that they find aesthetically pleasing (Ikea, Vases, "Fine" China, etc) than they do professional art.

Re:Rebellion (2, Interesting)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408664)

Being a professional artist is where it's at. You all laugh, but know that automation will replace you all much sooner than it will replace the artist.
Uh, don't laugh. Entire classes of 'professional artists' have had their chosen profession eliminated before.

Ever heard of a 'sign painter'? Chances are, if you're much under 30, you haven't. That's because about 25 years ago, sign painters were replaced with computer-aided manufacturing technologies. Those who failed to learn computers and vinyl-cutting equipment (and had no other relevant skills) went broke really, really fast.

Re:Rebellion (3, Interesting)

VeNoM0619 (1058216) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408806)

To be honest, he may be right.

At least when it comes to graphics/games, I have noticed that half of the work is making the engine (physics/game) and the other half is the actual graphics nowadays (from textures - models). Story-writers/musicians fall far behind in the necessity for these jobs, since a game tends be based off a story already as is (so fine tuning it is all that's left), and musicians can be a dime a dozen believe it or not.

Kudos to you being an artist, and good luck.

Re:Rebellion (2)

nomadic (141991) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408980)

Being a professional artist is where it's at. You all laugh, but know that automation will replace you all much sooner than it will replace the artist.

If you want a job with no job security, pick "professional artist." Painter, sculptor, web designer, graphics designer, you pick it, you will have hell of a time finding work. Unless you're independently wealthy, I'd do it as a hobby.

Re:Rebellion (1)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409016)

Ironically I work in IT, and I just wrote the automation to outsource a bunch of artists.

Computers can be done overseas, but it requires all kinds of infrastructure and education. Art though? There are good artists all over the world.

Re:Rebellion (2, Informative)

johnlcallaway (165670) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409138)

Provided the starving artists don't starve to death (or run out of grant money for the overpriced crap that passes as art) before then.

Re:Rebellion (1)

Dallas Caley (1262692) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409264)

Ha! you think so? I read an article a while back about this guy who wrote an algorithm that writes romance novels so i figure one that paints masterpieces is just around the corner

Welcome Michelangelo version 2.0!

But don't worry, when the robots take over we'll all be made into slaves anyhow. Hows that for job security?

Re:Rebellion (2, Funny)

Gilmoure (18428) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409368)

I thought the giant ants would force us to work in the sugar mines first. Or will the robots liberate us so we can make robot juice for them?

Re:Rebellion (1)

ojustgiveitup (869923) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409376)

Once computers start to automatically program themselves, there will be very little time remaining for our species in which to worry about job security.

Re:Rebellion (1)

Strange Ranger (454494) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408634)

Tell me about it.

and he's only 3.

:D

Re:Rebellion (4, Funny)

Gilmoure (18428) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409412)

My daughter's seven and has already told us (wife and I work on same help desk) that fixing computers is boring and she wants to be an artist. Luckily, we're setting up a clay studio, wood and metal working shop and painting studio at home for all of us. I figure, around 12, she'll rebel from hippy artist life and become a programmer or dba.

Re:Rebellion (2, Insightful)

gnick (1211984) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408700)

It would be nice to see just how 'overwhelming' this statistic is. My dad was an engineer -> He encouraged me RE engineering -> I'm an engineer -> I'll encourage my kids in engineering. They're free to do what they want, but engineering is what I know, so they'll see a lot of it. And, there's also often a strong correlation between your profession and personality type (i.e. engineers often approach situations similarly, so do cops, so do scientists, etc.) So, I could really see growing up with an engineer (or whatever) may encourage a child to develop into an adult that would be well-fitted for the same position.

Multi-generation careers are not remotely unusual - Look at our president and his brother...

Re:Rebellion (3, Funny)

BLAG-blast (302533) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408922)

I have this dream my child will play sports and have girlfriends (and/or boyfriends up to them which).

Re:Rebellion (3, Insightful)

dashiznit (729963) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409140)

As an IT professional, I see nothing but grief for anyone entering the IT world that is technical.

All the technical jobs are being offshored to India, Brazil, Argentina, etc. and anyone who keeps their job will likely get their pay continually cut. I hate to put such a cynical view on this, but I am witnessing this first-hand working for one of the biggest strategic outsourcing companies in the World.

Upper management prefers to invest as little as possible in brain and people capital and prefers to shift work to countries with the cheapest technical labor pool.

If your kids are entering the IT industry, make sure they know that they should drop a few IQ points and become a project manager, manager or sales rep.

Maybe by the time your grandkids enter the IT job market, the labor costs will have stabilized across the world.

Re:Rebellion (3, Interesting)

Red Flayer (890720) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409380)

All the technical jobs are being offshored to India, Brazil, Argentina, etc. and anyone who keeps their job will likely get their pay continually cut.
Pay will not be cut. Instead, those with a knack for managing offsite teams will be promoted (with or without a nominal raise) and others will be laid off. However, those laid off and looking for a new job will find that pay for equivalent positions will climb more slowly than inflation.

So, in today's dollars, pay will shrink over time -- but cutting pay is a huge no-no in the business world. Wage freezes + inflation will create the same effect with much less impact on employee morale.

Re:Rebellion (1)

Gilmoure (18428) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409436)

Or get a gov't clearance and sign on with Uncle Sam. Folks who keep their noses clean and don't travel to Canadia are in demand.

Re:Rebellion (4, Insightful)

johnlcallaway (165670) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409308)

I did not encourage either of my kids to enter IT for one simple reason, neither had the skills. I introduced them both to programming, and neither one was really interested in it.

My son became a anti-establishment hippie (for lack of a better word) and is very happy living a minimum-impact lifestyle outside of 'the system'. My daughter makes an obscene salary for someone her age as a pet groomer, she is extremely good at it and has many repeat customers with large pocketbooks for tips. She should be able to start her own business by the time she turns 25 and I've been encouraging her to get a business degree.

A responsible parent will encourage their child to do whatever they are good at and enjoy, since job satisfaction is far more rewarding than a large paycheck. I took a 10% cut in pay to get my existing job, and never regretted it. Miss the larger paycheck, but don't regret it. Simply adjusted my lifestyle accordingly.

Raman noodles rule!!!!

Re:Rebellion (1)

syousef (465911) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409684)

You have this idea of how your child should be and what they should like, and then they shatter your dreams when they start playing sports and getting girlfriends.

Dude, don't worry. Wii Sports and virtual girl aren't real.

They can pick any career they want (4, Funny)

nizo (81281) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408528)

Though one advantage of IT is they can earn quite a bit of money to help me afford a retirement home, and then when they are a burned out husk of a person after 20 years of stress they will have more time to come take care of me.

In related news... (4, Interesting)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408538)

In related news, 75% of all firefighters would recommend their profession to their children. 80% of all police officers would recommend their profession to their children.

Duh. Everyone wants their kid to do what they do. My father (when he was still one himself) wanted me to be a sign maker.

Re:In related news... (2, Insightful)

boris111 (837756) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408630)

A lot of parents work difficult thankless jobs so their kids can have better opportunities. Your examples in particular you may find that. Their jobs are dangerous.

Re:In related news... (4, Interesting)

asc99c (938635) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408682)

Dunno bout that. My mother warned me never to become a teacher - that is properly stressful because you're really affecting peoples lives, and the pay isn't good. My father warned me IT was boring and to do something else more interesting. My wife's parents warned her being a nurse was very hard work for not enough money and being in the police was too dangerous.

Even so I went into IT, and my wife's sister is training to be a nurse. I think the main drive to follow in your parents footsteps comes from the children not the parents.

Re:In related news... (4, Insightful)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408830)

I wanted to follow in my father's footsteps and become a teacher until teaching became professional babysitting.

Re:In related news... (1)

xaxa (988988) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409294)

I can't remember either of my parents (both teachers) every recommending the profession -- they regularly said things like "never be a teacher" though.

Re:In related news... (1)

Gilmoure (18428) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409474)

My father's footsteps disappeared when I was three. I wanted to be a planetary geologist and explore the Jovian moons. But then then 70's started sucking. Closest I got was fixing printer issues for rocket scientists at Honeywell. Guess getting a college degree can be a good idea, for some things. Who knew?

Re:In related news... (4, Interesting)

FrozenFOXX (1048276) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409392)

I agree with you about children following willingly. My father seems to have done his best over the years to discourage me from IT. Nearly every day he'd come home and I'd ask about his job he'd tell me about how moronic most of his coworkers were, how he wasn't getting enough money, and so forth.

Thing was that I didn't care in retrospect. I latched onto the best parts I could and used them and my own curiosity to fuel my own desire to be in IT. While your parents having the same profession and encouraging it can have an impact, I don't think everyone just, "does what their parents do."

Re:In related news... (1)

corsec67 (627446) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409042)

As a techie firefighter (wildland), yep, I would recommend that my hypothetical kids do... whatever they want. Wildland firefighting is a great summer job where you get paid to set stuff on fire [flickr.com] , so I would push that.

And then you bet I am going to teach them how to use *nix, which might predispose them to being a techie...

Re:In related news... (1)

mcmonkey (96054) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409142)

Everyone wants their kid to do what they do. My father (when he was still one himself) wanted me to be a sign maker.

Yeah, I don't think Laius was looking for his son to follow in his footsteps. Though he was more management than IT.

Re:In related news... (1)

ObsessiveMathsFreak (773371) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409306)

My father is a chartered management accountant. From the cradle, I have been urged ad nauseum to be either

a) Self employed.
b) A civil servant.

Naturally, I am neither.

wow (5, Funny)

damn_registrars (1103043) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408544)

They found 1,000 IT professionals that have offspring?

Re:wow (5, Funny)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408582)

They found 1,000 IT professionals that have offspring?
An interesting coincidence is that none of them have Slashdot accounts.

That's what I was wondering ... (1)

oneiros27 (46144) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408728)

I'm guessing that it's more like 75% wished they had done the things necessary to have offspring, so that they could then have them go into IT.

Maybe I've just worked at places with younger staff, but I've never seen more than 35% of the IT staff have children anywhere I've been, and if their kids are at the age to get career advice (ie, high school or after), the parents were jaded enough to not recommend it as a choice.

Re:That's what I was wondering ... (1)

stuporglue (1167677) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408902)

You have never worked at a tech job in Utah. :-)

At my present place of employment, I say that about 40 of the 50 people here are married and probably 30 of those 40 have kids.

My last job had similar ratios.

Well of course! I'm part of that 75% (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23408548)

Three-quarters of nearly 1,000 IT professionals surveyed said that they would 'definitely recommend' a career in the business to their offspring.

I'm part of that 75%.

I would unhesitatingly recommend a career in IT to my offspring, were I having kids.

Except that I don't want kids. So I would also unhesitatingly have a vasectomy, were I planning on having sex.

Except that this is Slashdot... So even the sex part is a pretty big stretch.

But if I were to hypothetically have sex, and if I were hypothetically not going to sterilize myself to prevent kids, and if I were hypothetically to have kids, then by all means, I'd be damned if I wasn't going to get at least some measure of revenge on 'em.

Re:Well of course! I'm part of that 75% (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23408686)

lol, awesome post

Re:Well of course! I'm part of that 75% (1)

umghhh (965931) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409598)

I think the research financed by IT head hunter is rather unreliable. Besides I think child abuse is illegal in majority of civilized countries.

The future of IT as we know it (3, Insightful)

suso (153703) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408628)

Here is what I can see happening. Its kinda grim, but its probably reality. I base this opinion on looking at other technologies like the telephone, radio and TV and seeing what has happened to the technicians in those fields.

When the technology is first new, you have the pioneers and the first maintainers who are paid a lot because the field is new and is in such a state of flux, it that you need the best and brightest people if you hope to hold you own in the industry. Eventually that field becomes more solid, easier to learn and there is a generation or two before you that are there for backup. Soon, management doesn't see the point of paying a lot (and probably rightfully so) to those technicians and everybody's mom and dad is capable of doing it. Its not something that you have to grow up knowing like a lot of us did, its something you can pick up out of high school. Its been said that being a system administrator is more of a lifestyle than a profession, but I think that will eventually change. Its unfortunate but I think we have to think about the future since a lot of us are young and will need to think about what will happen to the profession in our working lifetime. Programmers will probably be less commonitized to a degree, but still the value of the role will decrease a bit because software.

I think to some degree, this has already all happened if you compare the 90s and before with this decade. I hope I'm wrong about this though. The thing that really keeps us all going though is that the computer industry keeps reinventing itself with every new groundbreaking technology. I wrote about this before in a comment.

Re:The future of IT as we know it (1)

suso (153703) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408704)

There it is, where I talk about how the computer industry reinvents itself every 10 years or so to adapt to new environments.

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=371825&cid=21492415 [slashdot.org]

Re:The future of IT as we know it (4, Insightful)

garett_spencley (193892) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409014)

The advice that I give most people who go into the "IT" field is to specialize as much as possible.

Programmers are getting outsourced more and more but there will always be high demand for researchers, architects, DBAs, network administrators (referring to the physical local network) and other very specialized areas where it takes someone local with a special skill.

If you get a general computer science degree and go looking for a position as an entry level Java programmer you're not going to be as valuable as someone who wrote their PHD thesis on searching and indexing algorithms, for example.

In other news (5, Funny)

corbettw (214229) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408638)

75% of IT professionals hate their children.

The Perfect /. Article (2, Interesting)

ZJVavrek (952066) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408652)

Is it me, or is this an example of perfect Slashdot fodder? The article throws out a small handful of statistics, referencing a survey but not bothering to link the source (Since only five Slashdot readers would bother following the link) and performing no real analysis, leaving the dual tasks of Thinking and Putting Things Into Perspective in the hands of the readers.

I'm not particularly approving of this, mind you. At least, tell me where I can get the survey, so that I and the other four guys can look into it...

Who ARE these people? (5, Interesting)

assertation (1255714) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408658)

I'm a programmer. My viewpoint is the opposite. I'm always feeling a bit worried in some part of my mind that H1-B visas or outsourcing will diminish the jobs in my field. At the least interesting and/or well paying ones. Even without that worry it seems like programming jobs last 1 - 2 years tops before something dries up at the company you are at. Not a career I would recommend to people unless they really loved tech and didn't feel that strongly about another career.

I have to wonder what planet these people read their news on, but I hope they are right and I am wrong.

Re:Who ARE these people? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23408840)

Australia

Re:Who ARE these people? (4, Interesting)

BLAG-blast (302533) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409160)

I'm always feeling a bit worried in some part of my mind that H1-B visas or outsourcing will diminish the jobs in my field.

Interesting, I guess it depends on what part of the field you play in. With H1Bs maxing out after a few months, I don't worry about loosing my job to any hack with a work visa. Out sourcing, well can't say I worry about that either, while there have been some success in a few areas, I hear far most negative stories.

Also, if you're actually good at what you do then it's not hard to be in the top few percent of your field/company. If you've got plenty of experience and an ability to learn, there are almost always companies in need of your services. Always new techs emerging, always issues with older techs that need addressed. I'm pretty sure I can do a better job than a small team in India or China.

Re:Who ARE these people? (2, Interesting)

Ex-MislTech (557759) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409458)

Welllllllllllllll...

H1-B is not bringing in enough ppl to worry you.

So let's make a new work visa to bring in more workers
when the H1-B's fill up, we will call it the L-1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-1_visa [wikipedia.org]

Also because of pesky limits on H1-B's, lets make sure
L1's HAVE NO LIMIT.

http://www.immihelp.com/visas/l1/faq.html [immihelp.com]

(see Q & A #6)

Just in case ppl figure out the shell game we will also create
dozens of other alphabet letter visas too !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_visas#Select_List_of_the_Various_Types_of_Visas [wikipedia.org]

The United States Congress, destroying the middle class
the best they can with vigor !

Re:Who ARE these people? (1)

Hojima (1228978) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409584)

I'm pretty sure I can do a better job than a small team in India or China.
It's not whether you think you can, it's whether the incompetent pricks above you think you can.

Achieving through your children (2, Interesting)

EmbeddedJanitor (597831) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408666)

Is it really that they think their job is great and that they think their kids should so it or is it the ego effect?

Father-to-son bonding and passing a trade down has been something that people have been doing for ages. Apart from keeping the job in the family (not really an issue any more), it really allows the parents to boast to their colleagues about their children. Fathers also like it that their kids take interest in their work as it gives the father a good feeling that his son admires him. Then there's always the hope that your kid will do great and you can get some of the ego-shine.

Re:Achieving through your children (4, Informative)

Strange Ranger (454494) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408926)

Teaching your son a trade or profession at a young age is something that is time honored and good and well, have you heard the saying that a cynic is just an idealist with a broken heart?

Teaching by example is the most important way to teach your children. How else do you show them a good work ethic; persistence and determination and also the ability to take joy in labor and it's fruits. You can't just read that out of a book. (Chores are not the same thing. Chore is just another word for all the good habits that aren't much fun.) So yes, I'd say if at some capacity you can bring your children into your profession then you're teaching them valuable skills and also a lot more than that. When you teach children you're doing the opposite of limiting them.

Re:Achieving through your children (1)

Strange Ranger (454494) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408994)

Note to self ...Preview!

^Teaching your son or daughter..."

I have one of each and just think faster than I type.

Re:Achieving through your children (1)

garett_spencley (193892) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409134)

I'm not trying to nitpick, as I know you're not singling out father/son and only using it as a device for your message.

None the less I just feel the need to point out that I'm a father who has 2 daughters and it's no different to me in this regard than if I were to have sons. I would still love to teach them everything about my trade and to have them follow in my foot steps.

Of course it's balanced by my desire to see them shine in whatever they chose to do. I'm careful not to push anything on them and to encourage everything that they show interest in. I have to admit that I smile just a tad bit more when they show an interest in the same things that I do. But then that should be obvious, why wouldn't I be ecstatic to share common interests with my children ?

Steve Jobs? (5, Funny)

rackrent (160690) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408676)

Well, if I were related to a guy with that much money, I'd like to keep him in the family as well!

move jobs voluntarily (1)

RobBebop (947356) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408690)

The survey also found that 86 per cent of respondents expect to move jobs voluntarily in the next three years.

86% sounds high. Is this really true? Given the expertise needed to competently manage customized server and network configurations, I would think that an enterprise would be very willing to meet the salary demands of the best IT staff to prevent them from jumping ship.

Neither would I think it is a good thing from an employers perspective for an employee to have in the back of his mind that he *wants* to leave in the near future.

What gives? Why are 860 people out of 1,000 reporting the desire to leave their current employers?

Re:move jobs voluntarily (1)

CogDissident (951207) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408856)

You must not work in the IT industry. You don't get promoted up the ranks, you get hired at another company for higher wages.

Re:move jobs voluntarily (4, Informative)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409492)

You must not work in the IT industry. You don't get promoted up the ranks, you get hired at another company for higher wages.

There's a lot of truth to this.

Further, businesses have gotten pretty good at providing advancement tracks for non-technical people (maybe you start as an administrative assistant or working on a production floor, transition into some kind of more advanced office job, transition into some kind of middle management, etc.) but are generally much less good at or able to provide the same thing for technical people. For example, imagine a manufacturing business that has some internally-developed software that runs some aspects of their business and has a constant need for 2-3 developers to improve/maintain it. There really isn't an advancement track for those developers within IT in that company -- they either need to transition to non-technical middle management (probably not a good fit for them) or change jobs completely to get better pay or more challenging work.

Re:move jobs voluntarily (1)

Ex-MislTech (557759) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409580)

You must not work in the IT industry. You don't get promoted up the ranks, you get hired at another company for higher wages.

This is dead on.

The HR ppl have been told not to counter offer at most companies,
because they believe that new job fear, and being on probation
at another company will keep the sheep inline.

Apparently with 86% considering moving on up, they are wrong.

Imagine HR being wrong about something as hard and as fast as
they work, the blinding speed, and diligence, *gag* *puke*

Ok, couldn't stomach my own bullshit there.

Yeah I can see HR thinking one thing and reality being another.

Re:move jobs voluntarily (1)

Whitemice (139408) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408908)

What gives? Why are 860 people out of 1,000 reporting the desire to leave their current employers?
Despite popular belief here there really are a great number of employers who respect/appreciate their employees and reward them accordingly. Generally, if you contribute you will be rewarded.

I anticipate a salary increase this year, like almost every previous year. Like everyone else in my department. And like most of the developers and sys-admins I know.

Re:move jobs voluntarily (1)

moderatorrater (1095745) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408966)

From what I've seen and read, 1.5 years is the average stay for a programmer at a job, so if anything I think 86% is too low. It seems like employers are willing to give existing employees a 5% raise when that employee is able to get a 10% raise to go to another company. Companies are willing to pay more for the employee the don't have than for the one they do.

Re:move jobs voluntarily (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23409642)

Current trend I see, maximum pay increase capped at 3%. A few companies I worked for had this explicitly in the Employee handbook. Several companies I've interviewed at had this policy as well. The only way to get an increase (since inflation is around 3%) is to be promoted or leave. Most companies seem to not be terribly proactive in HR, they offer a promotion when you hand in the resignation letter. By then it is too late.

Re:move jobs voluntarily (1)

mcmonkey (96054) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409068)

What gives? Why are 860 people out of 1,000 reporting the desire to leave their current employers?

I think the keys phrases you are missing are "expect" and "three years".

Many people mumble about burning down the building. How many people actually do it? Out of the 860 people planning on moving in the next three years, many will not make the move, just as many will be moved by their employers before they can do so voluntarily.

But still, that number represents reality. The lifetime career with a single company is the rare exception, not the rule. If it's not likely you'll be with the same employer for the long haul and you will be moving some day, why leave the timing of that move to the employer? Doesn't mean you're not in the right position for now, doesn't mean you should be looking to change jobs immediately.

As far as "the expertise needed to competently manage customized server and network configurations," if you're not properly documenting your tasks so that it should be relatively painless to replace you, then you should probably be replaced sooner rather than later. Irreplaceable is a synonym for unpromotable.

Re:move jobs voluntarily (1)

garett_spencley (193892) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409206)

"Irreplaceable is a synonym for unpromotable."

That's a smart way to look at things but I'm not sure I would agree that it's completely accurate. You can train your replacement when you're promoted but not when you've been fired.

Re:move jobs voluntarily (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23409352)

Because the vast majority aren't high level geeks. They are low level techies and don't get the salary or perks that would keep them happy.

Re:move jobs voluntarily (1)

Ephemeriis (315124) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409648)

86% sounds high. Is this really true? Given the expertise needed to competently manage customized server and network configurations, I would think that an enterprise would be very willing to meet the salary demands of the best IT staff to prevent them from jumping ship.
IT is a lot more than actually managing customized server and network configurations. There are plenty of code monkeys out there, and they're as easily replaced these days as burger flippers. Sure, some of them are more talented and harder to replace with competent people...but have fun convincing management of that.

Neither would I think it is a good thing from an employers perspective for an employee to have in the back of his mind that he *wants* to leave in the near future.

What gives? Why are 860 people out of 1,000 reporting the desire to leave their current employers?
Job security and job loyalty are, at least in IT, a thing of the past. Folks rarely get promoted within the same company. If you want a raise, a change of duties, different responsibilities, whatever... You need a new job. Further, outsourcing and contracting are increasingly popular. Companies don't like to hire full-time employees when they can just contract someone for a specific task and then get rid of them when the job is done.

Hell No! (3, Insightful)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408710)

I hope my kids come nowhere near IT. The difficulties caused by the dot-com-bust in conjunction with excess H1B's at the same time left a bad taste in my mouth. I had a coworker get replaced by an H1B, and it was one of the saddest work-related moments of my life.

Maybe all professions have boom-and-bust cycles, but I would prefer my kids focus on something that is a bit more general so that they can flex during hard-times or fad-cycle speed-bumps.
     

Re:Hell No! (2, Insightful)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408916)

IT is plenty general. The worlds not going to stop using computers any time soon. You got to experience the birth pangs of an industry, and it sucks, but there is no industry where there is no foreign competition and no industry that doesn't have boom/bust cycles.

You want a sad work experience? I just coded the infrastructure to outsource ~100 graphic artists, some of whom were my friends. Life sucks, wear a helmet.

Re:Hell No! (1)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409046)

You got to experience the birth pangs of an industry

I was in IT long before the dot-com bust.

You want a sad work experience? I just coded the infrastructure to outsource ~100 graphic artists, some of whom were my friends. Life sucks, wear a helmet.

Or stop voting for Republicans, who favor cheap trinkets over good and varied jobs.

but there is no industry where there is no foreign competition

Face-to-face sales. H1B's accent and lack of knowledge about US culture reduces their inroads to it.
   

Re:Hell No! (2, Interesting)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409196)

Slashdot is chock full of libertarians until someone talks about jobs going away, and then everyone is a die hard socialist.

It's called competition, and you know what? It's going to take jobs regardless of who you vote for...Fighting supply and demand is like fighting gravity. Other people in other countries want to do the work for less? They're going to get jobs.

Trying to vote people into office who will protect your industry with regulations and tariffs is as likely to destroy the industry as anything else; witness american textiles, american steel, and the travesty that is the american auto industry.

maybe your judgement sucks (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23409698)

how close were the friends if you helped take money from them and give it to a greedy jerk

Re:Hell No! (1)

pembo13 (770295) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409052)

You may or may not know this, but the people who get H1B Visas are humans too. With families, feelings, etc. And as far as I know, they are no less worthy of a job than you are.

Re:Hell No! (1)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409180)

You may or may not know this, but the people who get H1B Visas are humans too. With families, feelings, etc. And as far as I know, they are no less worthy of a job than you are.

Yes, but there are ways for 3rd-world countries to boost their economy without being export-centric. They simply all copied the Japan approach like lemmings.
     

Re:Hell No! (1)

xaxa (988988) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409388)

But Indians don't count as humans as much as Americans do. (Apparently [treehugger.com] . I think that's awful, and I'm going to hit submit before ranting about it.)

Re:Hell No! (1)

Rycross (836649) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409588)

I don't see how he was implying that they weren't human. The fact that they are worthy of the job does not change the fact that you are likely to be replaced with that person. Being concerned about H1-B workers doesn't mean that you're bigoted, just that you recognize that the possibility of being replaced by one makes IT work less attractive. Now if he'd launched into a diatribe about foreign workers "stealing" jobs from Americans, that would be another thing, but he didn't.

For example, if I were to say that I don't think its a good idea to start a manufacturing company because of Chinese manufacturing, its not a slight against the Chinese, but rather a recognition of the simple fact that they can do it cheaper than me, and thus it would be very difficult for me to compete.

Re:Hell No! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23409404)

Most of the H1B visas I know of came about because the company tried for months to find someone competent to apply for the job, and after going through 7-8 phone screens a day for six months gave up and found someone who would take an H1B visa. They weren't replacing anyone, they were filling a needed headcount.

They didn't survey me. (2, Informative)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408712)

Jesus. Get a job where people give you respect, where you're not asked to rectify other people's idiocy 24 hours a day, and where you get to get a little exercise, see the sun occasionally.

Why would I want to pass that down to my kids?

Re:They didn't survey me. (1)

garett_spencley (193892) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409284)

"Why would I want to pass that down to my kids?"

Unplanned pregnancy ?

BS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23408724)

This survey is total crap.

Five IT Adult professionals in my extended family. NONE would recommend IT to their kids, and NONE feel their jobs are secure and NONE expect a raise this year.

IT Salaries have been declining for years. And still are. Most of the work is outsourced overseas; this is just setting up teens to fail !!!!!!!!!!!

Kind of surprising... (1)

smkndrkn (3654) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408762)

I've been in IT for 12 years now and I certainly would not recommend it to either of my boys. I'll suggest that they learn how to use computers effectively and maybe go as far as learn some languages if it makes sense for their career choice.

Sure there is good money and benefits and job security but I don't think it is very rewarding, especially early on in your career. My eldest wants to be an architect and I'm going to support him in that goal. If he ever were to ask me what I think he should do with his life I'd certainly tell him that is something he has to figure out for himself. But if pressed I wouldn't suggest IT.

So what you're saying is... (1)

Minwee (522556) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408776)

That they found 700 techies who were kidding themselves about where the economy is going and what their place in it was. Fish, meet barrel.

I think that some advice from The Woz [woz.org] needs to be brought in here:

"f my son wants to be a pimp when he grows up, that's fine with me. I hope he's a good one and enjoys it and doesn't get caught. I'll support him in this. But if he wants to be a network administrator, he's out of the house and not part of my family."

Re:So what you're saying is... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23409036)

That they found 700 techies who were kidding themselves about where the economy is going and what their place in it was. Fish, meet barrel.

I think that some advice from The Woz [woz.org] needs to be brought in here:

"f my son wants to be a pimp when he grows up, that's fine with me. I hope he's a good one and enjoys it and doesn't get caught. I'll support him in this. But if he wants to be a network administrator, he's out of the house and not part of my family."
Well since most geek's relatives want free tech support,,,,

Consider the source (5, Insightful)

walterbyrd (182728) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408854)

I have been in IT for an embarrassingly long 28 years. I have seen shortages, and gluts, of IT workers. I have seen strong economies and recessions, I have seen technologies and products come and go.

But one thing never changes, those with a clear agenda: dice, msft, ibm, robert half, tech schools, etc. always claim that IT is great field, and now is a great time to get into IT. These claims are often backed up with some sort of dubious numbers. Speaking as somebody with a degree in math, who has worked on credit scoring systems, and the like, I can assure you that there are people who can make the numbers say whatever somebody wants the numbers to say. Did you know that every time a company requests an h1b, another 5 US jobs are created? It's true, it was in a think-tank report, and bill gates quoted those statistics before the US congress. But, you never seem to see these "happy happy joy joy" surveys from those who don't have an obvious agenda.

Often the claim is that there is some new technology, that will take over the world, and in the near future there will be desperate shortages of people who are qualified to support that technology.

IMO: unless something unforeseen, and unforeseeable, happens, stick a fork in the US IT job market - it's done.

You can probably find a dozen of these types of optimistic articles on any given day. Here is another one from exec at dice.com:

http://searchcio-midmarket.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid183_gci1313503,00.html?track=NL-973&ad=639083&asrc=EM_NLN_3643525&uid=1339323 [techtarget.com]

Re:Consider the source (2, Interesting)

ojustgiveitup (869923) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409508)

Ok I'll bite. I'm considering the source of your post, which is you. You, that is, a person who has been employed in the industry he claims is "done" for a, not embarrassingly long, but fortunately long, 28 years. What am I missing? It's hard to find employment in one field for nearly three decades. How does this demonstrate that the field is dying? Just because people with an agenda say something doesn't make it untrue (or true). You have to look around and see for yourself, and when I do that I see a whole bunch of very well-employed persons (though lots of them seem to be whiners for some reason I don't yet understand) in a field that is very much not dying.

Re:Consider the source (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23409542)

I'm planning on telling my kids to get their undergraduate degrees in computer science, and then go get an MBA or a law degree.

They'll be able to code, which is almost like being a witch or a warlock considering how ubiquitous technology is these days, but they'll also have a degree that'll let them pay off their student loans.

And they'll have MUCH less competition from H1-Bs.

Actually, they'll probably be wrangling teams of them.

That's my take on it anyway.

Re:Consider the source (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23409572)

So, I'm curious, you say that you foresee the end of the US IT job market. Why? Businesses are still buying computers and doing business with them. They still need someone to maintain and manage those machines.

Couple that with the increase in businesses seeking an online presence and I just don't see it.

I'm not trying to troll here, I'm genuinely interested: What are you seeing that I'm not?

*Posted anonymously so as not to undo mods

Oh, it's Australian IT. (2, Insightful)

Lilith's Heart-shape (1224784) | more than 6 years ago | (#23408962)

If you asked American techies, you'd probably find that more of them would tell their kids that IT is a thankless job and should be avoided in favor of work that isn't so easily outsourced.

Consider the source (2, Insightful)

justinlee37 (993373) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409058)

Three-quarters of nearly 1,000 IT professionals surveyed said that they would 'definitely recommend' a career in the business to their offspring

You'd get very different results if you interviewed nearly 1,000 laid off IT professionals. It is really no surprise that people who already have a steady job in the field are under the impression that there are plenty of jobs to be had.

I thought this was /., don't you fools know jack about statistics?

My Parents are teachers (1)

kramulous (977841) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409204)

and told me that I'd be utterly stupid to become one. Apparently other kids parents strip away any warm fuzzy feelings as their kids are 'geniuses' and 'angels' and you're too stupid to see that.

child abuse (2, Funny)

mytrip (940886) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409222)

Convincing your kids to go into IT is kind of telling them to run out in front of a bus. Except the pain from the bus will not last as long.

I don't want that. (1)

evilphish_mi (1282588) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409234)

I don't want my child to be an IT guy unless that's what he wants to be. I would love to see my child become enterprising and I want to encourage the entrepreneur within him. That way he Will have many more options and won't be as limited to certain fields or sectors.

Maybe the survey was conducted in India? (1)

walterbyrd (182728) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409240)

I don't think the article mentions where the survey was conducted.

BTW: here is quick photo of India - you know the place with all "best and brightest" computer geniuses?

http://techtoil.org/ [techtoil.org]

That's My Boy... (4, Funny)

beadfulthings (975812) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409304)

I'm very proud of the son who followed me into IT. When he got his first "real" job, the joke was that he handed them a copy of my resume and said, "You have to hire me. This woman is my mother, and I have her DNA." (He didn't actually do that, but it's become a tradition to say so.) The other joke, which is actually true, is that people in his shop do not refer to side cutters as "dikes," out of deference to my gender if not my inclination. They're always called "side cutters" or "diagonals" in my honor.

Since then he has far surpassed me in knowledge and skill. I listen to him with great care, ask his opinions, and often follow his advice. Above all, I delighted with him and of all he's accomplished. I do worry a little bit about the twitch he's developed in one eye...

If he's reading, I'll just add: Son, I'm really, really sorry I bought the DLink router. I was in a hurry that day. Next time, I'll buy the one you suggested. Oh. And, grandchildren???

Insisting... (1)

oahazmatt (868057) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409320)

I'm not sure if he still plans on doing so, but at one point my friend was insisting that his two children both have a tech support job for one year as their first job, specifically customer-support at an ISP. It was two-pronged reasoning: Get them used to being crapped on (it is something everyone should learn to deal with), and developing communication skills to use in later careers.

I dismissed his idea at first, but the more I thought about it, my in-person and over-the-phone communication skills have greatly improved over the years. And especially working end-user support, you learn even when you solve every single problem, they'll still complain about how you did it.

I'll probably leave this tech job after 3 years, actually. It seems to be a standard around here.

I would never recommend a career in IT to my kid (1)

$criptah (467422) | more than 6 years ago | (#23409708)

By the time people reach the age of 18, they should have some ideas of what they want to do for living. My only recommendations to my future kids are:

Do not be an asshole.

Try to do something to benefit this world.

Do whatever you like as long as you're financially independent and not a burden on anybody.

If they ask me about IT, it would not say anything except for the fact that it worked for me and that I did not mind it because with my character (work to live) and a decent income I was able to enjoy my life the way I wanted it. If anything, I will recommend my kids to have a nice life and steer them towards something that allows a person to live to the fullest potential; be it a career in science or a tattoo parlor. This world has enough boring people who fix printers, write buggy code, burn through dozens of Coke cans per day and look like guys who want to be in GAP commercials. Meh.

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