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Windows 7 Won't Have Compact "MinWin" Kernel

kdawson posted more than 6 years ago | from the starting-over-is-hard-to-do dept.

Windows 580

An anonymous reader points us to an interview Microsoft's Windows 7 development chief, Steven Sinofsky, did with CNet. He reveals that Windows 7 will be a further evolution of Vista, and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. "We're very clear that drivers and software that work on Windows Vista are going to work really well on Windows 7; in fact, they'll work the same. We're going to not introduce additional compatibilities, particularly in the driver model. Windows Vista was about improving those things. We are going to build on the success and the strength of the Windows Server 2008 kernel, and that has all of this work that you've been talking about. The key there is that the kernel in Windows Server 08 is an evolution of the kernel in Windows Vista, and then Windows 7 will be a further evolution of that kernel as well."

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580 comments

3, 2, 1.... (0, Troll)

Corporate Troll (537873) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568871)

Start the Windows Vista and Windows Seven bashing!

Re:3, 2, 1.... (4, Insightful)

Kickersny.com (913902) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568881)

I'll bite...

We're very clear that drivers and software that work on Windows Vista are going to work really well on Windows 7; in fact, they'll work the same.
Aren't these two statements contradictory?

Re:3, 2, 1.... (4, Insightful)

somersault (912633) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569085)

Even worse, he then said "We're going to not introduce additional compatibilities", so there's a chance that they're planning to introduce a few incompatibilities.

Re:3, 2, 1.... (4, Funny)

witte (681163) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569029)

"We have no idea if drivers and software that work on Windows Vista are going to work at all on Windows 7; in fact, they didn't work on Vista either. We're going to introduce additional incompatibilities, particularly in the driver model. Windows Vista was about perverting those things. We are going to build on the relatively lack of bad publicity of the Windows Server 2008 kernel, and that has all of this work that you've been complaining about. The key there is that the kernel in Windows Server 08 is an incompatible fork of the kernel in Windows Vista, and then Windows 7 will be a further incompatibly forked up fork of that kernel as well."

(I'm sorry)

Re:3, 2, 1.... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569193)

Start the Windows Vista and Windows Seven bashing!
Look at the whipped bitches whining! They just can't help themselves.

Re:3, 2, 1.... (-1, Offtopic)

Lord Apathy (584315) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569243)

Lube up boys and bend over and grab your ankles. Here comes round two!

Rounds 1 through 40 (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569265)

Lube up boys and bend over and grab your ankles.

OK, here we go... [www.exet.nu]

hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (5, Insightful)

Nossie (753694) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568877)

oooooh that was quick.. /marks that one off the list/

shall we have a pool as to what will be next?

(and yes I know powershell was released as an addon)

Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (4, Funny)

cp.tar (871488) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569063)

For Vista, they promised loads of stuff, then stripped most of them out, presumably for a later version.
Thw MinWin kernel has been touted as non-production from the start IIRC, so that at least comes as no surprise at all.

I do wonder what all Windows 7 will not have; I would rather make a list of that.
For instance: WinFS, MinWin, capability to operate with less than half a terabyte of RAM, users... add to the list as needed; maybe after we define what Windows will not have, we can guess at what it will have.
Sadly, I only have bloat on that list so far...

Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (2, Insightful)

Gazzonyx (982402) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569095)

I call dibs on a databased backed file system being the next casualty of slippage! I'll target it for being yanked six months from now. Seriously, is Windows 7 supposed to have the new FS that they dropped from Vista?

Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (5, Informative)

plague3106 (71849) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569199)

Last I read the WinFS project is totally dead. Many pieces of the technology that would have made up WinFS though live on in other areas; parts went into Ado.Net for example.

http://blogs.msdn.com/winfs/archive/2006/06/23/644706.aspx [msdn.com]

Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569115)

I didn't even know winFS was still alive... Or is FS short for Frankenstein?

But your comment is exactly what I was thinking. We've seen it before, the touting of features on the next-best thing from Redmond, and we were much amused. They were constantly dropping features off the list, up to the point where there really were no technological advancements left in Vista.

They really appear to be doing the same: "The Windows 7 marketing speak will be a further evolution of our experiences with marketing Vista".

(and to the mods: parent should be modded insightful, not funny)

Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (5, Insightful)

sm62704 (957197) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569333)

They were constantly dropping features off the list, up to the point where there really were no technological advancements left in Vista.

What about the ability to slow down a computer to the point that you need a new computer, so you have to buy a new computer with another copy of Windows preinstalled?

Doesn't that count as a technological advancement?

That said, I still haven't read of a single feature of Vista that would compel me to shell out any more of my hard-earned money.

Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (1)

ozmanjusri (601766) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569303)

How about the Surface [pcmag.com] multitouch? It doesn't seem particularly innovative any more, but you never know...

Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (4, Insightful)

jollyreaper (513215) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569373)

oooooh that was quick.. /marks that one off the list/

shall we have a pool as to what will be next?
I predict they'll chop that list down until the final release looks like Vista with a shiny new GUI that robs any performance gains made by hardware over the last few years.

Cookie at the end of the page - very fitting (5, Insightful)

Cyberax (705495) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568883)

The current fortune cookie ("User hostile.") at the end of the page is somehow very fitting...

Guarranteed To Suck (5, Insightful)

curmudgeon99 (1040054) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568891)

Why would we believe these guys in Redmond again? They have sold us vaporware for decades. They promised the cool new file system in Vista and it was scrapped early in. They are going in the right direction--abandoning the hamstring of backwards compatibility--but who has any faith in Microsoft's ability to execute? I think I know the reason too. Microsoft has always selected the highest rated developers. Well, ratings may judge raw intelligence but not creativity. And it is the latter thing that is in short supply. Microsoft just does not attract creative rule benders. Instead, it attracts go alongs--people who followed the rules and did the right thing all along--which leaves them with high scores on standardized tests but bereft of any creative initiative. This has been my experience, at least.

Losing small businesses (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569031)

In my home business, I'm down to ONE program that runs only on Windows (ebay Blackthorne). ONE. (Wine doesn't cut it).

Otherwise, I could be running on OS X for 1 laptop and the PCs would be switched over to Ubuntu or something similiar, maybe RedHat.

Years ago, the internet was hamstringed by many windows only incompatibilities. Firefox evened the playing field there. Most programs were windows only (Quickbooks and Tax Programs can run on Mac now).

Windows grasp in my business is tenuous indeed. Granted, mine is a small business - but aren't many in America?

Plus in Linux, it's simple not to include a webbrowser. You can do the same in Windows, IIRC, (actually just turn it off), but there always seems to be a workaround on firing it up again. Those are one of the biggest productivity killers - my employees should be surfing at home.

It's not that I care about licensing fees, but my operation is too small to hire someone technical who knows how to do everything the right way and I find the Windows boxes need the most babysitting. Time killer = Money Wasted.

Re:Losing small businesses (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569321)

I really wish more people could see your point of view. It is my biggest gripe for XP Pro and Vista Business, get the media/internet stuff out. Let me choose to add it in, if I want but don't let some geeky employee use the run box and type iexplore to get the hidden browser working.

Re:Guarranteed To Suck (5, Interesting)

Hoplite3 (671379) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569119)

I disagree that MS hasn't hired creative people. They were the home of the "Cowboy Coder" who would do anything to make code faster. This was a big advantage in the 1990's, when MS products tended to be faster than 3rd party code. But these hack-fest programs are a bitch to maintain, cowboy code is littered with side effects someone else has to find and eliminate, and (worse for MS) compilers and computers have gotten better.

Good, maintainable, understandable code is now perfectly fast. MS's competitors now have the advantage from a good code bas. Meanwhile, the development process at MS as stagnated. (Remember the story of the shutdown dialog in Vista. Twelve people all working on code various degrees away from the trunk. Not good.)

But I agree with your assessment that MS hasn't delivered on the cool. Apple is eating their lunch in the good looking and working camps. Linux is still king of the UNIX-like environment that seems to be in a Renaissance now. Still, MS has a big install base. They've worked hard to use incompatible file types to build lock-in. The aren't going anywhere for a while.

Re:Guarranteed To Suck (5, Funny)

curmudgeon99 (1040054) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569317)

Also, .NET has really withered on the vine. Though you will always be able to find shops that use .NET, the general consensus that I've heard is that .NET is dying.

Re:Guarranteed To Suck (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569181)

I think it's partly because they hire so many foreign workers. Maybe it's cultural, maybe it's stockholm syndrome, maybe they're afraid of being deported. But a lot of foreign workers need to be told precisely what to do. We see this in the military, too. You can laugh at the quality of US military recruits, but they can function even if their command structure is destroyed. A lot of foreign soldiers shit their pants when that happens.

Re:Guarranteed To Suck (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569261)

... they can function even if their command structure is destroyed. A lot of foreign soldiers shit their pants when that happens.
Actually, I think that is more a question of the highly professional corps of NCOs in the US military.

Re:Guarranteed To Suck (1, Funny)

cp.tar (871488) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569297)

You can laugh at the quality of US military recruits, but they can function even if their command structure is destroyed.

Would it be facetious to suggest conducting an experiment? Say, by destroying their whole command structure, top-down... starting with George W.
We can then take notes of their behaviour.

..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (5, Insightful)

Dynamoo (527749) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568893)

"..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel." So in other words, the only thing really going for Windows 7 has been dropped. I feel that many businesses were holding out for Windows 7 to fix all the problems that Vista introduced.. it looks likely that this is not the case. If this shift is confirmed, then I really suspect that a lot of Microsoft houses will begin to dump the platform altogether.

Re:..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (1)

bondsbw (888959) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569075)

Probably not. Windows 7 : Windows Vista :: Windows XP SP2 : Windows 2000.

At least that's how I predict it... they plan to not alienate users like Vista did, while building some strength onto the platform.

Re:..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (4, Insightful)

nine-times (778537) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569099)

So in other words, the only thing really going for Windows 7 has been dropped.

Yeah, that follows the pattern.

Re:..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (1)

conureman (748753) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569101)

I really had high hopes too. pfft. For my friend's gotta-be-windows boxes, I can do XP-lite for a while, I still have a couple XP-64 licenses. I wish I had a use for the feeping crud. Hopefully Vista sp2 will have the drivers ironed out, I may be forced to try it in a year or two.

Re:..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (4, Funny)

somersault (912633) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569121)

Strange how such bad news could also in hindsight be some of the best news of the decade :)

Re:..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (4, Interesting)

cp.tar (871488) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569161)

OTOH, consider this: Windows cannot be fixed without breaking backwards compatibility.
Therefore, in order to offer a new product, the old one should be abandoned, which cannot be done at the present point in time.

Imagine, then, that this possible decline of Windows is actually planned.
We know Microsoft is working on a new Windows kernel, on a wholly new operating system and whatnot... could it be that they are actually planning to lower their market share (thus dodging some anti-trust bullets), and then offer something new and improved, even if it proves to be Unix reinvented?

Or is it too much to expect from a behemoth?

Re:..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569353)

although it's been done before (remember "new" coca-cola?) i doubt MS is capable of making such a structured long-term plan.

I mean, it took like 6 years or however long to make Whist.. Longho.. Vista. Not to mention what we were told about several years ago was in no way what was delivered in Vista.

Hell, if memory serves me, we waiting 27 years for a new version of IE. It sure seemed that long at least.

Re:..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (1)

grm_wnr (781219) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569215)

The problems with Vista have little to do with the kernel. And MinWin was never promised as a W7 feature (it's really not MS' fault that people thought of it that way). In fact, what the hell, who cares about the kernel anyway, the NT kernel was always good and will likely continue to be. The big question if MS will manage to clean up their historic userland crap and plus the new userland crap they introduced in Vista.

Cynical First Post (4, Insightful)

Lord Byron II (671689) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568901)

Great, an article telling us what Windows 7 isn't. While they're at it, somebody should write a story about how it doesn't use the Linux or MacOS kernels either. From the start Microsoft has been telling us that MinWin is an experimental, non-production kernel and that it wouldn't be in Windows 7. Now CNet reports it and its like new news all over again. Yawn.

Re:Cynical First Post (1, Informative)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569011)

Uh, no, that's completely wrong [zdnet.com] . Unless you're suggesting that Eric Traut doesn't work for or speak for Microsoft. In the talk he gave, clearly MinWin was supposed to be part of Windows 7.

Re:Cynical First Post (5, Informative)

umofomia (639418) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569319)

Uh, no, that's completely wrong [zdnet.com] . Unless you're suggesting that Eric Traut doesn't work for or speak for Microsoft. In the talk he gave, clearly MinWin was supposed to be part of Windows 7.
Wrong again... the ZDNet article mischaracterized his statements. He only says they built MinWin out of the current Windows 7 codebase. If you actually listen to the talk, he says: "This is internal only; you won't see us productizing this, but you can imagine this being used as the basis for products in the future." (said at 4:00 of the video clip on this page [istartedsomething.com] )

So the scaling back of Featues begins (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23568905)

We saw this only too well with Vista.
Now the same with Windows 7. The more and more I hear about it the less I'm inclined to beleive that this new OS release will fix the problems that have been all too evident with Vista ( slow file copy, nagware etc etc etc) that the majority (non /. readers) are experiencing.
Everything seems to being rushed out. I wonder how many cases of Duct tape are being deivered to Microsoft this month.

Remember the slogan 'The WOW starts ...'
All I here is "WOW is it that bad"

Will it become worse that Vista? That is the $64 Zillion question.

Re:So the scaling back of Featues begins (3, Interesting)

Lord Byron II (671689) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568933)

I think what we're looking at is what will be an evolutionary step like we saw going from Win95 to Win98. And as I recall, it was quite an improvement. Not to say of course that Win98 was perfect, it had its (huge) flaws, but it was quite a step in the right direction.

Re:So the scaling back of Featues begins (1)

somersault (912633) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569159)

I'd much rather go back to using Windows 98 than use anything that is based on Vista. In fact I was using Win98 up until a few years ago on a home PC. Only got XP in the end so that I could play Lego Star Wars :p Half-Life 2 and the like were running great on the 98 box. The whole MinWin thing sounded like great news to me, I was thinking I might even upgrade to Windows Seven. I thought the same thing with Vista too though when I first heard about it a few years ago. I thought they were going to re-implement Windows from scratch, but instead of slimming everything down and making it more efficient, they made everything even SLOWER with all the DRM and such. That's not how it should be.

building off vista (2, Funny)

Anivair (921745) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568907)

In related news, the US Military is going to build off the success of the Iraw war, the travel industry is going to build off the success of the Titanic and David Letterman is going to build off the funny of this comment.

doesn't sound promising.. (5, Funny)

sqldr (838964) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568909)

We're very clear that drivers and software that work on Windows Vista are going to work really well on Windows 7

What, all five of them?

Re:doesn't sound promising.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569165)

Hey, 5 drivers should be enough for anyone.

Further regression, you mean. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23568911)

Seriously. When are Microsoft going to wake the hell up?

Disappointing (3, Interesting)

Blahbooboo3 (874492) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568913)

Disappointing that the first exciting thing coming out of MS OS in a long time is now not even to be a part of Vista part 2. MinWin had me thinking that MS was starting to change back into the company of its golden era (i.e. late 80s - 90s) when it released operating systems with new features that made one excited to buy the latest and greatest OS.

Oh well, maybe this will enable the year(s) of the Linux on the desktop (smile)?

Re:Disappointing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569059)

you mean dos 4.11? i dont know, but that was a low imho and not a high ... (yes, dos 5.0 brought i back along the line until windos 95 integrated it...)

Re:Disappointing (2, Interesting)

somersault (912633) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569227)

I don't think a modular OS is exactly a 'new feature', unless you just mean new to the Windows world ;) I also had thought maybe they'd got a grip of themselves, but they're just too lazy or scared to rebuild everything properly from the ground up. The best thing for them to do to improve the OS would be to forget about backwards compatibility, but that would also be one of the worst things they could do because it leaves users open to try other alternatives if they're going to need all-new software anyway. I suppose they're already trying that with .NET. At least if everything starts using .NET, then the underlying OS can be changed around without worrying too much about compatibility (though this being Microsoft, they'll probably keep changing and changing the .NET specs so that everything is incompatible anyway..)

Re:Disappointing (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569241)

I hope you didn't have a "straight face" in front of your computer while you were typing that nonsense.

Microsoft had a golden era ? are you NUTS ? MS DOS was obsolete the day it was released, and so were any iteration of windows 3, win95, win98.. when Microsoft was releasing a MS DOS shell, people were using multimedia stuff on amiga and atari, and when Microsoft got serious about the enterprise with Windows NT, people already had Unix based for years, in fact Unix is older than MS DOS.. come on man, nothing exciting got out of Microsoft, every OS they put out had features done better by the competition.

Contradiction (0, Redundant)

phrostie (121428) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568915)

"We're very clear that drivers and software that work on Windows Vista are going to work really well on Windows 7; in fact, they'll work the same.

Re:Contradiction (1)

Kintar1900 (901219) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569049)

Damn. You beat me to it. :)

Re:Contradiction (1)

interstellar_donkey (200782) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569081)

That's not a contradiction at all. It's not unreasonable to think that of all the drivers and software that work on Windows Vista (perhaps 10% of all the the drivers and software developed for Vista) will continue to work.

Now, if they managed to get all the stuff (you know, the other 90%) that doesn't work on Vista as it should to work really well, that'd be something else.

So the difference is... (5, Insightful)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568931)

...now, what exactly?

Not only could the average user not find an advantage in Vista over XP (remember, users rarely care what's under the hood, they just want to use the system), now even geeks won't see a difference between the old and the new system?

Ok, let's be constructive. We heard now what will not be different between Vista and "Windows 7". So what will? Because, well, if it's the same... I'm no marketing guru, but I guess even the marketing guys in Redmond might have a hard time selling the same product again.

Re:So the difference is... (5, Funny)

halcyon1234 (834388) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569077)

It'll be simple for the marketing drones:

Do you remember the last time you had a steak? A really big, thick juicy steak. Yeah, that was great, wasn't it. That was XP.

And then you remember how it clogged up your colon, and you couldn't do anything for a day or two? That was Vista

And then you remember how it all finally came out, when you spent a half-hour on the can, insides being stretched to Hello.jpg proportions, tears laced with internal-bleeding running down your face, screaming and punching holes in the bathroom drywall, until finally at last everything was right again, and wave of adrenalin-induced euphoria washed over you once the pain was gone, finally gone? That was Vista SP1

Don't you want to experience that wonderful feeling of eventually bliss all over again? Windows 7, coming soon to a colon, urr, computer near you*.

(c)Windows(tm) Marketing(tm) Team(tm) 2008)(tm)

*Steak not included

Re:So the difference is... (1)

cp.tar (871488) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569253)

And then you remember how it all finally came out, when you spent a half-hour on the can, insides being stretched to goatse.jpg proportions, tears laced with internal-bleeding running down your face, screaming and punching holes in the bathroom drywall, until finally at last everything was right again, and wave of adrenalin-induced euphoria washed over you once the pain was gone, finally gone? That was Vista SP1

FIFY

Re:So the difference is... (2, Insightful)

cp.tar (871488) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569125)

...now, what exactly?
Not only could the average user not find an advantage in Vista over XP (remember, users rarely care what's under the hood, they just want to use the system), now even geeks won't see a difference between the old and the new system?
Ok, let's be constructive. We heard now what will not be different between Vista and "Windows 7". So what will? Because, well, if it's the same... I'm no marketing guru, but I guess even the marketing guys in Redmond might have a hard time selling the same product again.

Ah. You are of course young and inexperienced, and you are unaware of the completely new and reworked[1] Start menu, improved compositing[2], and 3D multiple desktops placed on the faces of a Modron Clippy-like Windows/Office assistant who will put all the Cancel or Allow? messages in a funny-looking message balloon for your convenience[3].

[1] pinched from KDE
[2] ditto from Compiz
[3] don't ask.

Re:So the difference is... (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569371)

Neither [1] nor [2] is important in an OS. Whether that button is red, green or hot pink is about as important as whether it is organized as it was in XP or whether it is as it's now in Vista. Who has the bazillion different programs installed that the shiny new features of Vista really pay off?

And I refuse to comment on [3]!

An OS should work as the mediator between the user and the programs he desires to run. From the user's perspective, that is (of course there are technical issues what an OS should do, let's stay on the user side for now). That's what an OS is about. Enabling the user to run what he wants to run. Neither browser, nor content player, nor firewall, nor word processing tools are what I'd call part of an OS. I'd even go to the length that the file manager isn't necessarily an intrinsic part of the OS.

Those are tasks that can be tackled by others. And I think this is why Windows is in the sorry state is is today. Too much was crammed into it, too many accessoires were made part of the system, for all the wrong reasons. It can be a good idea to weave the file manager into the core OS level, there are maybe good technical reasons to do this, from security to speed. There is no good reason to weave the webbrowser into it, from a technical point of view.

That's what slows development down on Windows. Too much baggage is hauled along, so even the tiniest steps and changes require insane amounts of time and manpower. And when Windows 7 appears, we'll notice the mountain gave birth to a mouse yet again. And again people will ask for the "new", for the change, for the big step forwards.

Re:So the difference is... (0, Flamebait)

Simon Brooke (45012) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569239)

...now, what exactly?

Not only could the average user not find an advantage in Vista over XP (remember, users rarely care what's under the hood, they just want to use the system), now even geeks won't see a difference between the old and the new system?

Ok, let's be constructive. We heard now what will not be different between Vista and "Windows 7". So what will? Because, well, if it's the same... I'm no marketing guru, but I guess even the marketing guys in Redmond might have a hard time selling the same product again.

... is the wrong answer.

The marketing spin is, 'yes, we know Windows Vista was a dog. But this all new all singing all dancing VistaRebadgedWithNewDesktopTheme will solve all your IT problems!'

And the sad fact is people will buy it.

People will buy it because they don't understand what an operating system is or how it works. They think that if the desktop looks different that means that fundamental things are different. All Microsoft need to do is change the name and repaint a few icons, and the suckers will come rolling in again.

And the even sadder fact is that because that's all Microsoft needs to do, that's all Microsoft will do.

Some old story... (5, Insightful)

apathy maybe (922212) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568935)

Let's see now... MS develops great new technology, but only so far as so that it can be seen what potential it has. MS hypes (to a greater or lesser extent) this new technology. MS explains that actually this new technology won't be used in the next version of MS Windows.

What was that really good filesystem we were going to see in Windows XP, sorry I mean Vista?

Oh right, this time it is because of backwards compatibility, rather then any other reason. But still, people keep saying it, why doesn't MS just dump the crud, go with a great new secure system (MinWin sounded like a good start), and use emulation to support all the old software?

With drivers (the specific reason given here), they could easily have a backwards compatible layer implemented above the microkernal for drivers that needed it.

Meh.

Re:Some old story... (2, Insightful)

falcon5768 (629591) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569311)

there is a very good reason they dont. Apple and Linux. Microsoft backed themselves into a wall where they WILL lose a decent amount of marketshare if they upset the balance of power and do a major revision of everything they sell, but are likely to lose marketshare slowly but surely too if they dont to linux and Apple who make no quarms about dumping out of date and obsolete aspects of their system.

In other words... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23568937)

Windows 7 will be what Vista should have been. It will be provide a decent user experience on top of being bloated.

huh? (1)

plasmana (984377) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568939)

I thought moving towards a componentized design was the evolution of the kernel. I don't get from the article that moving toward the concept of MinWin is no longer a design goal.

So? (4, Insightful)

neokushan (932374) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568945)

Is there anything actually wrong with the NT6.1 Kernel?
I mean, Vista has it's problems, granted, but can any informed person here state what's so bad about the Kernel itself, since that's what's causing all the fuss??

Re:So? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569185)

"Trusted" Computing, anyone?

Re:So? (1, Interesting)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569369)

Is there anything actually wrong with the NT6.1 Kernel? I mean, Vista has it's problems, granted, but can any informed person here state what's so bad about the Kernel itself, since that's what's causing all the fuss??

  1. DRM. It's in everything in Vista. That means it is checking constantly whether media is valid or not. That puts overhead. Copy a file from one drive to another. It's dramatically slower than XP because Vista has to check whether you are stealing from yourself.
  2. UAC^H^H^HSecurity. It checks whether you should run something when you ran it specifically. Mind you it doesn't prevent anything. It just constantly asks you to be sure. Some would call it needless overhead.
That's the two I can think of.

It won't make any difference (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23568947)

Even if Windows 7 didn't take up half of your hard drive space, it'll still take up half of your life savings in software and repairs just to keep it running.

business as usual? (1)

zeromorph (1009305) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568953)

So this is going to be business as usual? I tought that the production of Vista was quite a traumatic experience.

But maybe doing a leap instead of evolution would overburden the company's structure. Or is the strain (of users and/or MS) not high enough?

Hmmm (4, Insightful)

cephalien (529516) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568961)

Isn't this slow and steady 'removal of promised features' what got us Vista in the first place?

Re:Hmmm (3, Interesting)

n3tcat (664243) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569035)

Exactly. Vista started out with a lot of "admin" hype, as they were supposed to add all these additional features that would make administration a breeze compared to previous iterations. The problem is that they waited too long, not for the adaptation of XP to become so widespread, but simply too long for the rumor/hype to carry Vista into the workplace.

I'll bet their target now is to generate hype, then cut features, and try to slip the product out before the hype wears off and everyone finds out it was a sham ad campaign.

Re:Hmmm (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569073)

Isn't this slow and steady 'removal of promised features' what got us Vista in the first place?
Yes. Expect Microsoft to cover this fact up with completely new eye candy features. I also expect them to make important changes in IE, DirectX, etc., that will only be available in Windows 7, in order to drive sales of an OS that will end up being just like Vista -- no reason to upgrade.

Re:Hmmm (1)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569267)

As far as I remember MSFT never promised to min-win in Windows 7, so technically it is not removal of promised features.

Let us face the stark reality. Windows is not going to die tomorrow or even suffer a sudden death anytime. The main strategy of MSFT has been to always keep things in flux so that nothing else interoperates with them and the competition will be forever churning its wheels trying to catch up.

Finally things have reached a state where the upgrade speed has slowed down, competition has caught up in many areas and people are slowly realizing the difference between true interoperability and MSFT compatibility. But still the insalled base of Windows is huge, and people who see no reason to or unable to move from XP to Vista are unlikely to move to Linux in a hurry. The market share of Windows will slowly erode and as it erodes the old tactics won't work and that will speed up the erosion. But despite all that MSFT is likely to retain a very large market share for quite a long time. Not really music to most slashdotters, but that is the way things are.

sp2 (1)

PhireN (916388) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568967)

Oh well, In that case I expect Windows 7 to ship in 2010, and be only slightly more bloated. Apart from that it will be pretty much the same as vista, a big non-event that might as well be released as Vista service pack 2.

Contradiction error (4, Funny)

mistersooreams (811324) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568979)

"drivers and software that work on Windows Vista are going to work really well on Windows 7; in fact, they'll work the same"

Bzzt! Logical inconsistency detected! Abort/retry/fail?

MINWIN IS NOT A NEW KERNEL! (4, Informative)

EXMSFT (935404) | more than 6 years ago | (#23568989)

Augh. The entire concept of MinWin has been lost to time. It's NOT a custom kernel. It's NOT a kernel rewrite. It is, and always was, the literal minimal version of Windows. MinWin was never a shipping feature that any customer would care about - in fact in the first iteration it was intended as the first, required, component of Windows embedded - the fully componentized version of Windows.

Vista to WIN 7 (2, Funny)

Oshkoshjohn (537394) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569003)

If my Vista Ultimate is less than a year old, do I get a free upgrade? I have a VERY bad feeling about this.

Re:Vista to WIN 7 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569327)

HAH! You bought Vista? That reminds me of a saying...

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice... ya can't fool a fooler.

Translation: (4, Funny)

LinkFree (1112259) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569005)

"We're very clear that drivers and software that work on Windows Vista are going to work really well on Windows 7"
Windows 7 will be incompatible with just about every third party application. Any compatibility with other Microsoft will be purely incidental.

"We are going to build on the success and the strength of the Windows Server 2008 kernel"
We're making it an even larger resource hog. Idling, Windows 7 will likely occupy 2 or more cores, and 4GB of ram.

"The key there is that the kernel in Windows Server 08 is an evolution of the kernel in Windows Vista, and then Windows 7 will be a further evolution of that kernel as well."
We're going to try our best to make Windows 7 so convoluted that no one can possibly discover the vast security holes.

Hope this is a bit easier to read.

Let me guess ... no WinFS either? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569017)

Heck, as long as they fix the many problems with Vista and make it the product Vista should have been, it will probably sell quite well. In fact, they've practically created a new OS market with all that nice new hardware going out the door with Vista pre-installed: the "Vista replacement market". Currently that huge market need is being satisfied by Windows XP (a sale is a sale), Linux, and (if people get fed up enough and switch hardware) Mac OS X.

Who would have thought Microsoft could have figured out a way to sell *two* Windows licenses per machine (one for Vista, and one XP license when people downgrade)? It's brilliant! Well, as long as too many people don't switch to other alternatives, but en masse migration is a long way off. Still, it would be nice if Microsoft offered a more modern "Vista replacement OS" once Windows XP is completely phased out. Windows 7 could fit that bill.

Well, unless it is so bad people will want to downgrade to Vista. That's a scary thought.

Re:Let me guess ... no WinFS either? (1)

thatskinnyguy (1129515) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569273)

I got so pissed when I bought my computer and saw Vista on it, I went back to using a typerwiter to get on the internets. Oh damn it! I misspelled typewriter! Gotta get the whiteout!

IPv6 will save Vista (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569019)

IPv6 support in XP is incomplete. When the IPv4 addresses run out in two years, Vista will be vindicated.

Hey (0)

HangingChad (677530) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569021)

Windows Server 08 is an evolution of the kernel in Windows Vista, and then Windows 7 will be a further evolution of that kernel as well.

Wasn't Windows 7 supposed to be the departure from the Windows kernel? Instead of a new direction it's turned into Vista II, Steeper and Deeper. Instead of moving forward they're trying to get back to their last good product line.

Guess this is Microsoft's idea of leaving the past behind and forging boldly into last week.

It Seems Obvious... (2, Insightful)

FurtiveGlancer (1274746) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569025)

M$ is hoping for a "WinWin" kernel.

continue the great success (1)

alxtoth (914920) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569027)

Vista kernel was a rewrite (and great success..). Now they try to build on said great success, instead of rewriting it again. Makes sense :-)

Re:continue the great success (1)

queldor (1184789) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569129)

Vista kernel was a rewrite (and great success..). Now they try to build on said great success, instead of rewriting it again. Makes sense :-)
Vista kernel may of been a rewrite, but *I* have yet to see success from it.

We want XP (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569037)

Couldnt they just forget Vista2 and just fix XP for newer hardware?

Steve Jobs (1)

cyberkahn (398201) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569117)

Microsoft really needs to admit that it lacks any courage and hire Steve Jobs as a consultant to blaze a new path for them. Never have I seen a company with such a lack of vision or daring.

Re:Steve Jobs (3, Informative)

pdusen (1146399) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569187)

The last thing anyone needs is for Microsoft to be even less open than it already is.

Wait. (5, Insightful)

ludomancer (921940) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569127)

"...and then Windows 7 will be a further evolution of that kernel as well."

Could you guys just go back and evolve Windows 2000 instead?

Re:Wait. (1)

teslar (706653) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569367)

Could you guys just go back and evolve Windows 2000 instead?
Err... been there, done that?
Windows 2000 (NT 5.0) -> Windows XP (NT 5.1) -> Windows Vista (NT 6.0) -> Windows 7 (NT 6.1)

4. Profit! (4, Insightful)

8tim8 (623968) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569151)

The Microsoft OS development model:

1. Promise the next version will be a geek's wet dream
2. Over the course of the several years of development, slowly step away from each and every major feature
3. Release the new version which is, at best, a minor upgrade from the previous version.
4. Profit!

We are currently at step 2.

Windows is dying... Netcraft confirms it (0, Redundant)

00_NOP (559413) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569167)

OK, maybe not. But they sure are struggling to get something new and better to market.

Vista is a flop not in a commercial sense of pounds, shillings and pence but in that it has damaged the brand.

And listen to this one... I travel to work on the tube in London. Quite often you see people reading tech books on the way in or out. Yesterday, for the first time ever there was someone (other than me, of course) reading a Linux tech book.

The revolution was, it is and it will be!

Re:Windows is dying... Netcraft confirms it (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569269)

I travel to work on the tube in London. (...) Yesterday, for the first time ever there was someone (other than me, of course) reading a Linux tech book. The revolution was, it is and it will be!
Don't take this personally, but does it really get any more anecdotal than that? It's practicly a que for "Both Linux users in London accidentally met on the tube yesterday" jokes. As a small counter-anecdotal evidence, our company and our parent company are rolling out a new Vista/Office 2007 platform to many thousands of users in the next few weeks. Linux? OpenOffice? Well, noone cares if I install Ubuntu in a VM and work on that as long as the results are good, but 99% use Windows and nothing but. The revoluion isn't quite here yet, even though I've switched personally...

Unbelievable (2, Insightful)

pdusen (1146399) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569203)

Well, I guess not totally unbelievable. Slashdot readers are capable of complaining about both Vista's biggest non-imaginary problem (hardware compatibility) and in the same post, complaining about the solution (building on the existing core rather than rewriting again, thereby making new driver development much simpler).

Allow me to be the first to say... (1)

thatskinnyguy (1129515) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569205)

...I, for one, welcome our Vista Service Pack 2 overlords.

If the OS works and functions like Vista with no major changes or increased hardware support (multi-touch... pffft just make my damn printer work), it sounds to me more like a SP release than a full-blown new OS.

and we thought they had learned ...... (1)

jabjoe (1042100) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569211)

No-one wants an OS that requires a beefy machine just to run. We want a tiny OS that leaves us most of the machine to do with as we will. The desktop is morphing into a form of client via the browser. Who would want a fat OS to run their browser when a thin one will also run their browser, but faster on the same client machine. This is what the sub-laptops are all about. Thin OS, means you can have a thin/cheap client. Using a old OS isn't really a solution, you want one that scales with the hardware. I.e Linux. If MS wants to compete, they need MinWin. Not that I want them to, I want source code for when the docs fail me (though the Wine source is quite good for Win32 questions if msdn isn't answering you ;-) ).

Oh goodie (1)

Luke Dawson (956412) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569213)

Polish that turd up good, boys! I want to see my face in it!

Ballmer sissy boy loves the flying eggs (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569249)

Sissy Ballmer cowers when a few eggs fly

What a fucking chimp

How arrogant he is to walk around smiling and cracking jokes while his company fucks poor countries out of taxpayer money

What a piece of shit

Remember, eggs are generally served for breakfast

I wonder what's for lunch

Never Had It to Begin With (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569257)

How did Windows 7 lose the MinWin kernel exactly? I know that none of you people actually read articles, but when MinWin was discussed it was specifically mentioned that it was not a component of the upcoming Windows 7. It was a research project, not developments from the Windows team.

Go ahead, watch the video demo. He explicitly says this:

http://www.istartedsomething.com/20071019/eric-talk-demo-windows-7-minwin/ [istartedsomething.com]

Of course it's more fun to pretend that Microsoft did say that they were going to include it, and only recently stated that they're not. At this point you are making fun of your own delusions, which is on par for Slashdot but still mentally unhealthy.

this is fantastic news! (3, Funny)

theheadlessrabbit (1022587) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569259)

I am really happy about this.

as a linux user, (i befriended the penguin after one day of vista) watching MS drop the ball a second time is good news.

i can feel it.....

2010 will be the year of linux on the desktop.

(at least for some people it will be, just like how 2007 was the year of linux on MY desktop)

stab in the dark (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569275)

I get the feeling it will be a repeat of Win ME or does no one else remember that joke.

Alternatively it seems M$ goes in leaps and fails, 98 was good, ME was a joke, XP was good Vista is a lemon, maybe we might still be in for a surprise... if not i guess i will work on taking up Linux and getting wine working for all my games.

Excellent (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23569277)

Goodbye only reason I was interested in Windows 7, and Microsoft in general.

Further evolution of Windows Vista? (1, Insightful)

Rhapsody Scarlet (1139063) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569351)

He reveals that Windows 7 will be a further evolution of Vista, and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel.

So that's 'further evolution' as in "we're dropping loads of cool new features". Microsoft really have lost the plot in the last few years, and Canonical [wikipedia.org] for one are willing to capitalize on any weakness on Microsoft's part. They may still have the market share to impress, but Microsoft are going to have to make Windows 7 count in order to regain the sort of mind share they've lost as of late.

Not Quite (2, Insightful)

labmonkey09 (992534) | more than 6 years ago | (#23569381)

If you read the entire piece, that is what he said in answer ANOTHER question, but when asked directly- What was this idea then that got talked about in terms of a kind of minimum kernel? Sinofsky: Well, why don't we stick at a higher level today, because I think that I don't want to really dive into the implementation details today. It's still out there.
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