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KDE 4.1 Beta 1 Released

timothy posted more than 6 years ago | from the when-improvements-amplify-each-other dept.

KDE 242

appelza contributed a link to Tuesday's announcement of the next step toward KDE 4.1: "The KDE Project is proud to announce the first beta release of KDE 4.1. Beta 1 is aimed at testers, community members and enthusiasts in order to identify bugs and regressions, so that 4.1 can fully replace KDE 3 for end users. KDE 4.1 beta 1 is available as binary packages for a wide range of platforms, and as source packages. KDE 4.1 is due for final release in July 2008." I haven't used KDE much for the past few years, but the screenshots of a "grown-up" plasma are enough to make me correct that.

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One word (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23575453)

B l o a t

Re:One word (4, Informative)

dotancohen (1015143) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576075)

Are you not aware that Qt4 uses less resources than Qt3? KDE4 is therefore less resource intensive than KDE3 (Or at least will be when the KDE3 apps are rewritten for KDE4. Until then, both Qt3 and Qt4 must be loaded).

Re:One word (5, Informative)

Frekko (749706) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576237)

And here is a memory usage test written by a gnome guy a couple of years back for KDE3. Gnome and KDE use more or less the same amount of memory: http://spooky-possum.org/cgi-bin/pyblosxom.cgi/kdevsgnome.html [spooky-possum.org]

So unless our troll is using emacs or windowmaker or something like that for his "desktop environment" he should take his anonymous coward business elsewhere.

Thank god (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23575483)

Thank god I'm running the fastest desktop enviroment.

Fristo posto

Re:Thank god (1)

Tubal-Cain (1289912) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575567)

EDE?

Re:Thank god (1)

ArcherB (796902) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575747)

No. Must be the CLI.

Re:Thank god (1)

Tubal-Cain (1289912) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575785)

The CLI is not a Desktop Environment, per se.

Re:Thank god (1)

ArcherB (796902) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575855)

The CLI is not a Desktop Environment, per se.
I run it on my desktop. Is it a notebook environment? :-)

(and I could be wrong, but I believe the proper term is GUI or WM.

Nope! Looks like I really am wrong [wikipedia.org] . You are correct, sir!)

Re:Thank god (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23575871)

Emacs!

Re:Thank god (1)

junglee_iitk (651040) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575851)

JWM

Ob (0, Redundant)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575495)

Does it run on linux?

Re:Ob (3, Insightful)

pak9rabid (1011935) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575525)

Does it run on linux?
More importantly, does it not rely on KDE3 apps anymore?

Re:Ob (3, Informative)

wizardforce (1005805) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575581)

depends on what linux distro you're using. so far there are packages for mandriva, opensuse, debian and fedora. the release has also been ported to windows and mac with a set of packages for kubuntu coming up in a little bit however you can compile from source if you really really need to have the beta on other distros/OSes

Re:Links Please (1)

mpapet (761907) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575817)

I'd love to apt-get it on my Debian Lenny boxes. Can you post sources.list entries please?

Re:Links Please (3, Informative)

wizardforce (1005805) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576005)

Debian has KDE 4.1beta1 in the experimental branch. debian unstable and experimental should satify the requirements for KDE4.1: eg.
deb http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/ [debian.org] experimental main non-free contrib
deb-src http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/ [debian.org] experimental main non-free contrib

Re:Debian Lenny How-to kde4 (4, Informative)

mpapet (761907) | more than 6 years ago | (#23577097)

Warning, if KDE3 is your working desktop, you may be wise to copy ~/.kde to restore it if KDE4 doesn't work for you.

1. use the url's above minus the [bracketed] words in /etc/apt/sources.list
2. Set pin priority. I borrowed from http://wiki.debian.org/Kde4schroot [debian.org] I also prioritized a couple of packages to be sure they didn't get upgraded. (mythtv-frontend is my biggie)
3. apt-get update
4. aptitude install -t experimental kde4 (this might take a while to calculate a solution that works for your system)
5. Restart X.

Big thanks to the author of the kde4schroot page.

http://wiki.debian.org/Kde4schroot [debian.org]
http://packages.debian.org/experimental/kde4 [debian.org]

Re:Ob (2, Funny)

ArcherB (796902) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575783)

Does it run on linux?
I tried to run the 4.0 version on Linux (Linux Mint 4.0). I have to say, NO, it does not run on Linux.

Re:Ob (2, Informative)

wizardforce (1005805) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575861)

if you're trying to use the debian port, know that Linux Mint being based on Ubuntu which is based on Debian is no longer close enough to use Debian's experimental branch packages. for an experimental beta like this, you would probably be better off either compiling from source [pain in the arse if you ask me] or installing the debian port on debian through a virtual machine of course any of the other OS/port combos would likely work too.

Re:Ob (3, Informative)

ArcherB (796902) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575945)

if you're trying to use the debian port, know that Linux Mint being based on Ubuntu which is based on Debian is no longer close enough to use Debian's experimental branch packages. for an experimental beta like this, you would probably be better off either compiling from source [pain in the arse if you ask me] or installing the debian port on debian through a virtual machine of course any of the other OS/port combos would likely work too.
Well, in my case, "Runs" can be measured in terms of degree. Sure, it launched and I was able to put a few widgets (or whatever) on my desktop. I could even launch an app or two before the whole thing fell apart. At one point, I was even able to drag my desktop wallpaper around the desktop as if it were a giant icon.

I am using the what appears to be Kubuntu repo's btw:
http://ppa.launchpad.net/kubuntu-members-kde4/ubuntu/ [launchpad.net]

Re:Ob (1, Informative)

jamstar7 (694492) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576095)

I gave it a shot on Hardy. Couldn't get Plasma to run stable, so I went back to 3.5.x.

Wake me up when 4.1 is stable.

Re:Ob (2, Funny)

harry666t (1062422) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576609)

Sure. And on Mac OS X and on Windows too. And even on BSD (although I heard that it is dying).

slashdotted (0, Offtopic)

SBrach (1073190) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575601)

slashdotted

Re:slashdotted (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23575717)

slashdotted
No, it's not (yet).
Upgrade the 56k.

other ob. (-1, Redundant)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575611)

*This* is the year of the Linux desktop.

Re:other ob. (5, Funny)

jps25 (1286898) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575767)

*This* is the year of the Linux desktop.
Not for those using Debian...

Re:other ob. (1)

carnalforge (1207648) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576991)

Those are waiting for GNU Emacs D.E. to run under GNU hurd, forgot?

Re:other ob. (1)

zarr (724629) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575891)

*This* is the year of the Linux desktop.
It is. Whether or not the majority of computer users are running it is irrelevant [wordpress.com] .

Re:other ob. (3, Funny)

zeromorph (1009305) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575921)

Or BSD desktop [freebsd.org] ?

*ducks*

Re:other ob. (3, Interesting)

garett_spencley (193892) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576353)

Feel free to mod this redundant or OT but I just ordered a Dell Inspiron 1420N with Ubuntu and I feel really good about it :)

My wife and I have been talking about me getting a laptop for the last 4 years since I work from home, so this is going to give me a lot more mobility. I may finally be able to take a vacation. Anyway I really didn't want to pay the MS Tax and at the same time I wanted to send the message that I want Linux. It's a little ironic that this comes the same day /. posts a story about Dell being hammered in court for false advertising but I really don't care. I've been using Linux since '97/'98 and this is the first time I've bought a computer that's had Linux pre-installed and I can't even begin to tell you how good that feels.

This really IS the year of Linux on the desktop even if most people still don't give a flying fsck.

Re:other ob. (2, Interesting)

V!NCENT (1105021) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576519)

Although many will think you might be joking, this might in fact be true. When Wine hits 1.0 (within a month?) major apps will work (Photoshop, MS Office, etc.) and Wine will have two series of releases: stable (regressions are a thing in the past!) and unstable (major changes). In my county (The Netherlands) Linux laptops are now the 'must-haves' on the 'front page' in folders of the giant PC retailers. MS is going to release the new SP for Office 2007 with out-of-the-box ODF support. Support for hardware is about to hit the same height where Windows is today. OGG files are now on every CD I have bought for the last year or so and my Samsung MP3 player supports it... and the list goes on and on...

So... is this it? Is 2008 going to be the year of the Linux desktop? It probably will, because all signs are pointing at that direction...

Re:other ob. (-1, Flamebait)

bonch (38532) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576779)

I like how KDE ripped off the blue striped background from OS X. Does desktop Linux ever implement an original idea?

Re:other ob. (3, Insightful)

carnalforge (1207648) | more than 6 years ago | (#23577091)

Yes, having an unix underneath a nice graphical desktop environment.

obvious response: (2, Insightful)

spazdor (902907) | more than 6 years ago | (#23577251)

Does Apple?

can't wait (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23575659)

yay

At least its getting updated (3, Insightful)

pacroon (846604) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575673)

I think that besides whats already been stated about the obvious nifts 'n gigglez with eyecandy, it looks a little less "overdone" than the previous ones. I'm not a big KDE fan myself, but in this particular period in time, I'm mostly happy that large free applications are being updated at all. :)

why dont most distros use kde? (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23575719)

any political / license i dont know about?

Re:why dont most distros use kde? (2, Insightful)

clampolo (1159617) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576505)

Gnome has a reputation for being more stable than KDE. On the downside it doesn't have as many features as KDE. (I'm on Gnome, I'm jealous of those sexy screenshots.)

Kind of makes sense that with most of the money coming from business they would rather have something more solid than feature-rich. But this is just a guess on my part.

Re:why dont most distros use kde? (3, Informative)

SiChemist (575005) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576713)

Gnome has a reputation for being more stable than KDE. On the downside it doesn't have as many features as KDE. (I'm on Gnome, I'm jealous of those sexy screenshots.)

Reputation for stability among whom? Gnome users? ;-) Seriously, I've been using KDE for years and never had any serious stability problems.

Nothing new (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23575725)

I'll continue using KDE 3.5.x. It does have more features than KDE 4.0/4.1 will ever have.

Re:Nothing new (2, Insightful)

Tubal-Cain (1289912) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575893)

x.5 has more features than x.0 or x.1. Who would have guessed? 4.x will eventually outdo 3.5's features. Just not 4.0 or 4.1.

Not that you shouldn't stick with 3.5 if you feel that best serves your needs.

That's a fast /. (2, Funny)

Yoooder (1038520) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575729)

So there wasn't even a comment posted (even after a refresh) before the site was slashdotted and nearly dead.



Impressive!

4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons! (0)

SpydeZ (1196075) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575733)

Is this is the release that has no more desktop icons [blogspot.com] ?

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons! (5, Informative)

zapakh (1256518) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575919)

Is this is the release that has no more desktop icons [blogspot.com] ?
Did you read the rest of that page?

Well, we now have a folder view applet courtesy of Frederik HÃglund. It can view any folder you want, including the desktop folder. You can also set a filter, making it possible to, for instance, view just images or whatever. It uses KIO so you can view remote folders as well. You can drag items to and from it, delete files, scroll, etc. It lines everything up in a nice grid and uses the same drawing routines that Dolphin, Konqueror, KRunner and others use from kdelibs for the icons.

You can have 0, 1 or more of these folder views in your plasma, all viewing different (or the same, I suppose) folders. You can put them on different activity areas (aka "desktop containments") as well.

In the future we'll have a little label in the folderview telling you which folder you are looking at, it will turn into an icon with a menu listing in horizontally constrained containments (e.g. panels), it will be collapsible on the desktop with a single click (it's already resizable, rotatable and removable) and you will be able to use it as a containment itself.

That last bit is important: it means that you can have an Old Skool(tm) desktop with an icon mess if that's what you really, really want. So don't bother with that flame, nobody has anything to complain about. ;)
Nothing about "no more desktop icons"; just that the desktop-icon concept has been reformulated as an instance of something more general and configurable.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons! (1)

Abcd1234 (188840) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576635)

Yes... now you have a big, black box that has to be as big as the area you want icons in. Wow... that's so much more awesome. :)

IMHO, any change like this should at least make it possible to mirror the old way of doing things, in case people like it. Me, I like folders on my desktop... I can put handy things there within easy reach... heck, the whole desktop applet thing is really just an extension of that, and it seems pretty popular to me.

So the question for me is, why not have their cool icon area thinger, but make it possible to have it a) transparent, and b) occupy the whole desktop. Then you can use it as you see fit... emulate the old way (transparent, maximized, and possibly omnipresent), or fiddle around with novel configurations. Seems like an easy change that would make everyone happy.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons! (4, Interesting)

Hatta (162192) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576031)

That would be the best thing ever. Desktop icons are an abomination. I find myself unable to use them with proper discipline, and my desktop becomes a complete and utter mess. All I can do is use a WM that doesn't support them (fluxbox). I might actually have to check out kde4 now.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons! (1)

hemna (205532) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576271)

I completely disagree. I put many frequently used icons on my desktop as it speeds up my access to them. My hand is already on the mouse and it just takes 1 click to lauch/use said application if I am able to put an icon on the desktop.

Now in kde4.1 I have to have a big huge ugly black box around my icons...for no reason. I have used KDE for years over gnome, but this change will make me take a look at gnome again. It's a bad decision forcing users to work in a specific way without being able to configure it....Sounds a lot like M$ to me.

I'm sorry...no desktop icons for you! Desktop icons...bad....big black box...good.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons! (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576465)

I'd be pretty surprised if you couldn't theme the icon box to be the same color as the desktop so it's not visible.

In fluxbox, I just use the slit instead of desktop apps. There are plenty of app launcher dock apps to use. They take a little more effort to set up than just dragging an icon onto the desktop, but that makes them harder for me to abuse. A feature, IMHO.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23576831)

You know, you COULD just disable icons on the desktop instead of throwing out the baby with the water. :)

First! (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23575745)

First!

I dunno.... (2, Insightful)

mpapet (761907) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575763)

My concern is not so much the desktop environment itself.

How many KDE3-guified apps are going to switch over to KDE4? I don't expect to see very many this year, but next year should be very telling regarding the desktop's popularity.

Re:I dunno.... (4, Interesting)

Tanktalus (794810) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576553)

I dunno ... I'm running kde 4.0.4 right now, and I have to say that while there are apps that are prone to crashing (darned open-source imperative to release early and release often, but, hey, I knew that before electing to install it), I do love what they've done with many things. A few things stick out in my mind: konqueror - VASTLY improved, okular - replaces kpdf and can read MS's "compiled html" (.chm) format (which is helpful for me), the composite effects are not all just eye candy - things like dimming background windows help me focus on the foreground application and pushing my mouse into a corner of the screen (default: top-left) to show all the windows on the desktop (or on all desktops) is HUGELY helpful.

That's just some of the KDE3 apps that are already ported to KDE4. Even extras like ktorrent have already been ported to KDE4, which is nice.

I really miss the PIM stuff (kmail, knode, kalarm, kaddressbook, etc), so I'm really looking forward to seeing KDE 4.1 in the main Gentoo portage tree, even masked, as soon as possible.

I expect to see MANY kde3 apps moved to KDE4 this year.

Heck, I was running the KDE4 version of ktorrent on KDE 3.5.8 earlier this year (yes, I know, 3.5.9 is out), so it's not like it's entirely a problem to have these apps coexist. This provides apps the opportunity to port to KDE4 without needing their users to actually use KDE4 as their desktop.

Is KDE Taking the Lead? (4, Insightful)

ryanisflyboy (202507) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575797)

I am not a window manager guru by any stretch. I use Gnome since that is what a lot of my friends use, and at the time I made the choice KDE didn't seem as capable. Now I look at KDE and get the impression that Gnome is falling behind in breadth and depth of features, configurability, and ease of use. Is that an accurate view of the situation? If so, why isn't Gnome able to keep up?

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23575983)

Now I look at KDE and get the impression that Gnome is falling behind in breadth and depth of features, configurability, and ease of use.
It always had been. I'm a GNOME user who remembers the years of file chooser abuse by the GTK devs. I'm using GNOME because the whole thing feels more "solid", I like nautilus better than Konq, and that Firefox uses gtk.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (4, Interesting)

domatic (1128127) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576001)

The GNOME guys idea of user friendly is strip features and configurability rather than refining features, picking good defaults, and laying out dialogs for ease of use by normal users and having tastefully accessible extra options for the particular and demanding power user. And no guys, clicking around in gconf which may not even respect those customizations on the next login doesn't cut it.

Historically KDE has fallen down by making configurability difficult for casual users and a pain for power users but at least power users could eventually get things the way they want them. I read good things about how KDE4 is going with that but have yet to see it for myself as it was a mass of regressions from KDE 3.5 the last time I tried it. Once it acquires polish and forward ported features and apps from 3.5, I'll be switching too.

Important Caveats (3, Insightful)

Alaren (682568) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576223)

I read good things about how KDE4 is going with that but have yet to see it for myself as it was a mass of regressions from KDE 3.5 the last time I tried it. Once it acquires polish and forward ported features and apps from 3.5, I'll be switching too.


I read good things, too, so I just assumed that "4.0" meant "everything 3.5 is, only better." But after installing KDE4, I found that every customization option I was really interested in required me to dig into Plasma's guts and re-script stuff. For all of that, I may as well have installed Gnome.

Almost all my online inquiries got this response: "That's planned for 4.1, but until then you can make it happen by [rewriting this file in some obscure way]." Stuff as simple as dragging elements around in my panels was not even implemented.

I actually liked the parts of KDE4 that felt complete, so I do plan on migrating eventually. But the more time I spend learning about it, the more it looks like KDE4.1 should have been KDE4.0. As it stands, KDE4 is almost useless as a GUI, because the "G" part of that acronym doesn't apply to customizing your settings. So if by "acquires polish" you mean "becomes a feature-complete GUI," I agree.

Re:Important Caveats (3, Informative)

Jesus_666 (702802) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576489)

Actually, KDE 4.1 is what the average user considers to be "KDE 4". 4.0 was mainly the technical basis on which the actual GUI would be built.

Re:Important Caveats (2, Informative)

PitaBred (632671) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576695)

4.0 was advertised as a "base" platform for application developers and bleeding-edge adopters, a feature-freeze for the KDE 4.0 frameworks, not necessarily a feature-complete desktop environment. Was there somewhere or someone that said otherwise? If so, they should be slapped with a trout.

Thanks (2, Insightful)

Alaren (682568) | more than 6 years ago | (#23577029)

See, looks like everyone knew what was going on except for me!

I don't think I ever saw anything that said KDE was feature-complete. I just saw article after article about lower memory usage, improved user experience, greater customization, and then "KDE4 Beta" followed by "KDE4.0 Released!!!" I drew some incorrect conclusions, that's all.

I can't blame my ignorance on anyone else. But it's worth pointing out that, while as an ex-IT guy I have a pretty good handle on technology, when it comes to the Linux desktop, these days I am strictly an end-user. Law school does not leave me time to participate in developer discussions or test unstable distributions or what have you. I use Linux because I am philosophically committed to doing so.

If you developers (for whose efforts I am grateful!) want to take anything from this (hah) it might be that calling something "x.0" and hyping its improvements over "(x-1).y" prompts the perception of a completed product, especially in the Linux world where we're fond of criticizing Microsoft's "SP1 (or SP2) is the real release" mentality.

Like I say, clearly I should have been paying closer attention, but I know I'm not the only one who missed the announcement that 4.0 final was more like 4.1 beta.

Re:Important Caveats (1)

lattyware (934246) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576813)

Yeah, when KDE4.0 was released, they basically said look to KDE4.1 for our first proper release.

Re:Important Caveats (3, Informative)

StormReaver (59959) | more than 6 years ago | (#23577079)

KDE 4.0 was never intended for mainstream use, but rather as the first implementation of the new KDE libraries that allowed developers to begin porting their KDE 3.x applications to KDE 4. As such, KDE 4.0 was largely unusable. However, its goals (the main porting effort) were achieved, so it was considered a success.

KDE 4.1 is supposed to be the first KDE 4 version usable by real people. There was a lot of space between 4.0 and actual usability; but the developers have been making rapid progress, and KDE 4.1 seems good in the article, so I'm allowing myself a bit of optimism that it might have enough of 3.5's functionality to be useful -- especially if I can uninstall Dolphin without trashing the rest of the desktop.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (2, Insightful)

Frekko (749706) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576025)

As a long time KDE user I can tell you that this is not true. Not that KDE 4 isn't very impressive (I love, that's why I use it) but these two projects are developed in parallel. They watch each other as hawks and most of the features are in fact quite similar. Yes, there are some differences, but hey they are different products.

Love the fact that we have competition on the desktop on Linux. It's our greatest blessing!

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (4, Insightful)

Chineseyes (691744) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576033)

Taking the lead of what exactly? Gnome has followed a trend of removing features and giving users few options while KDE has been giving users more features and more options.

Some people feel that completely removing options is a good idea because they are looking to target corporations and limiting options makes support easier, but I have always felt that KDE's approach is much better. Give the users all the options they could imagine and then let them decide what is best. With KDE's approach you can always have some sort of locked down "corporate default" setting that would make support easier but with Gnome's approach what do you do when a user wants a feature that has been removed?

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23576221)

ur a noob, lol

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (0, Redundant)

hemna (205532) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576395)

Oh...Like KDE 4.1 removing the ability to have desktop icons is "giving users more options".

awesome.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (2, Interesting)

Chineseyes (691744) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576535)

Desktop icons were deprecated in favor of a folder view applet, that you can have on your desktop, so you can still have desktop icons on your desktop via the applet.

From Aaron Seigo's blog:

"Hey!" I hear you say, "I see icons on that desktop!" That's quite right. (And, I must say, you are quite observant today. ;) So what was a mumbling about earlier then when I said the icons were gone?

Well, we now have a folder view applet courtesy of Frederik Höglund. It can view any folder you want, including the desktop folder. You can also set a filter, making it possible to, for instance, view just images or whatever. It uses KIO so you can view remote folders as well. You can drag items to and from it, delete files, scroll, etc. It lines everything up in a nice grid and uses the same drawing routines that Dolphin, Konqueror, KRunner and others use from kdelibs for the icons.


As you can see they didn't get rid of desktop icons, they made having desktop icons BETTER.

Image of icons on the desktop via the applet [kde.org] Original Blog Post [blogspot.com]

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (0, Troll)

hemna (205532) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576669)

If you call forcing me to have a big black box around my desktop icons "better".

Yah that is a LOT better. wow.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (2, Interesting)

cloakable (885764) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576759)

It does that? Nifty, that'll make groupings of icons much easier.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (1)

harry666t (1062422) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576827)

Icons are not going away. Fact, in 4.1 you will have them only as in a Plasma applet, but with 4.2 they'll be coming back in their full glory, but as a part of a more modularized and flexible desktop. RTFA before you rant.

Oh, wait, this is /.

Nevermind

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (4, Informative)

Niten (201835) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576727)

No, there's a huge difference between removing options and leaving advanced under-the-hood features, well, under the hood.

GNOME takes very much the same approach as OS X here. For instance, in order to let users adjust how Spaces handles new windows popping up in different workplaces, Apple didn't throw yet another checkbox into some huge and unnavigable control panel. Rather, they left it as an option to be configured with defaults write com.apple.Dock ..., because 95% of users won't want to change this behavior, and those who do won't have any trouble figuring out defaults write anyway.

Likewise, a lot of obscure GNOME / Metacity / GTK+ configuration options that aren't wasting space on a control panel somewhere are still accessible through GConf or a separate configuration file. I'm an "advanced" user, and I like this because it gives me less junk to hunt through when I want to change something in the GUI; and I know many "beginner" users who appreciate GNOME for the very same reason.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (0, Flamebait)

chromatic (9471) | more than 6 years ago | (#23577031)

95% of users won't want to change this behavior, and those who do won't have any trouble figuring out defaults write anyway.

I'm not sure that you can call a feature "discoverable" if you have to play "guess the combination of terms in your favorite search engine" to figure out if it even exists.

... accessible through GConf...

That's very nearly the last word I'd ever use to describe GConf. Are you sure you didn't mean "soul-suckingly unusable"?

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (1)

HalAtWork (926717) | more than 6 years ago | (#23577063)

with Gnome's approach what do you do when a user wants a feature that has been removed?

You write a basic task-oriented application. You could argue that Gnome is a more modular approach while KDE is a more monolithic approach.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23577285)

Has it occurred to you that maybe some people prefer GNOME's approach to interface simplicity for purely functional reasons?

Having too much choice is confusing, and I'm not just looking at this from a novice's point of view. If I were using it on a workstation it would be extremely distracting to have to deal with all the extra menus and options in order to get to what I actually need.

I consider myself a poweruser and yet I don't find GNOME restrictive in any way. On the contrary, I can adapt to it and it's actually a pleasure to use. If you want to tinker with the interface, by all means, go ahead. But if you're actually looking at getting something done and being productive, the last thing you need is sorting through pages and pages of interface elements.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (3, Insightful)

Hoplite3 (671379) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576085)

I use KDE, but I don't think Gnome has fallen behind. I'd say both are about at the same level.

If anything, the big tragedy is all of the stuff that's now done by KDE/Gnome that should be done by non-X related systems. Wifi association, laptop power stuff, suspend/resume functionality, and so on... all of these things are now handled through Gnome and KDE subsystems to some degree, rather than handled by a non-X related program that communicates to some graphical widget.

There's been a big loss of separation between parts. It's a shame.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (1)

cloakable (885764) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576637)

I don't know about that. On my laptop, suspend/power management is done through dbus to a daemon backend (I don't know what that is). Networking is done through dbus too, using the NetworkManager daemon and KNetworkManager.

But I agree, more stuff like this would be nice.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (1)

PitaBred (632671) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576785)

Naah. They're handled through freedesktop.org interfaces. NetworkManager, powernowd, all that just provide hooks that KDE and Gnome take advantage of with their controller widgets. It's the same underpinnings, just a different fascia depending on the DE.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (1)

Hoplite3 (671379) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576943)

Ah, but set the rules for what happens when you close the laptop lid in Gnome, then fire up KDE and close the lid ... the result is the default for KDE.

Likewise, log in to a VT rather than an X session. NetworkManager won't associate with any known basepoint around at login. nmtool doesn't even have the ability to force a connection.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (0, Flamebait)

Hatta (162192) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576115)

Gnome has always been behind KDE when it comes to features and configurability. Their only goal is ease of use. Whether they meet that goal is debatable, but I'd claim that if a desktop doesn't have enough features, and you can't configure the ones it does have, then it's not very easy to use.

Why can't Gnome keep up? They get bogged down in policy [gnome.org] , whereas KDE just writes things that work.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (1)

QCompson (675963) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576477)

Gnome has always been behind KDE when it comes to features and configurability.
Not anymore. Have you tried KDE4?

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (5, Insightful)

theJavaMan (539177) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576139)

I would say it's the design philosophy. Gnome says "Do this our way, because it is better" (see the ok-cancel button debate). KDE says "You can do it this way, but you can also configure your own way".

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (4, Insightful)

cozziewozzie (344246) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576207)

The KDE team has been rewriting/porting basically everything over to Qt4, which was a gargantuan task.

During this time, they used the opportunity to fix some long-standing issues and redesign some key components. Things were broken and in development for a long time, while the stable release 3.5.x went into bugfixing mode. Gnome was making steady improvements to their 2.x codebase this entire time.

KDE is only now starting to reap the fruits of this effort. The real power of the platform will become more obvious in the coming years.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23576653)

During this time, they used the opportunity to fix some long-standing issues and redesign some key components.

That's putting it mildly. The panel, desktop and widget system were ripped out and replaced with Plasma. It's hard to overstate just how vital this made Plasma to KDE 4's success. Unfortunately, it was nowhere near finished in time. They were even adding features after the first KDE 4.0 release candidate was released.

Naturally, this had an awful effect on the quality of KDE 4.0. They excused this by telling them that KDE 4.1 would fix all this. And promptly started a massive rewrite of Plasma. I don't hold much hope for KDE 4.1 being better than KDE 4.0 in this respect.

Ever since they started on KDE 4, they seem to have decided to run the entire project as if it were a perpetual beta. Something doesn't work? Rewrite it! Can't finish the feature on time? Release anyway! That's not what made previous incarnations of KDE a success and I'm afraid they don't seem to realise just how many people they've alienated by this tremendous drop in quality. Unless they go back to their previous development method where they actually gave a shit about quality, I'm afraid KDE will plummet in popularity. I've already switched away from it.

Interesting (1)

bobwrit (1232148) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575801)

Well it looks good(google images search). At least they're not relesing a new 1.0 incremant every time a developer sneezes.

Am I Missing Something? (1)

rhartness (993048) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575867)

I'm looking at the screen shots and I'm wondering with a couple of them-- What's up with the jaggies? Is it really that difficult to implement a little anti-aliasing on the edges of the apps when you apply certain effects?

Re:Am I Missing Something? (1)

Fez (468752) | more than 6 years ago | (#23575991)

I can't get to TFA to check the screenshots, but it may be the same as Gnome in my case. On one of my systems I have running Ubuntu 8.04, some compiz effects have jagged edges. It is especially noticeable with the Wobbly Windows effect.

I may have an option turned off, something misconfigured, or perhaps AA is only used for higher-end video cards than I have.

Re:Am I Missing Something? (3, Informative)

bersl2 (689221) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576259)

What video card(s)/driver(s) are you using?

Mesa doesn't support AA IIRC.

Re:Am I Missing Something? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23576651)

because mesa is jar jar binks

Re:Am I Missing Something? (1)

Fez (468752) | more than 6 years ago | (#23577003)

On that box I'm using Nvidia's binary drivers on an NV18-based GeForce4 MX440.

Re:Am I Missing Something? (1)

Fez (468752) | more than 6 years ago | (#23577099)

Hate to reply to myself but there is another detail: I am using the nvidia-glx driver, as that card did not seem to take to well to the most recent set of drivers. I might try it again, though.

Beta? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23575909)

"The KDE Project is proud to announce the first beta release of KDE 4.1. Beta 1"



What?! The first beta of beta?

Re:Beta? (1)

Lunix Nutcase (1092239) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576039)

You can't imagine all the problems I had with the alpha of Beta 1...

Re:Beta? (3, Funny)

Ungrounded Lightning (62228) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576077)

"The KDE Project is proud to announce the first beta release of KDE 4.1. Beta 1"

What?! The first beta of beta?


Naw. The Department of Redundancy Department got its hands on the press release.

Re:Beta? (2, Funny)

Jesus_666 (702802) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576533)

Actually, they included rounded corners and JavaScript, which allowed them to add gratuitous AJAX. The result is KDE 4.1 2.0 Beta. Since it's not entirely done yet and they're still testing they released a beta version, KDE 4.1 2.0 Beta Beta.

KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23576043)

I have two pet peeves about KDE.
1. Let us disable the underlined letters in UI elements that signify the accelerators
2. Drop the stupid K prefix. Yes, it is highly cute that you can somehow work the letter K into just about everything possible like you're some freakin sorority. It does nothing to help readability. As much as product names like Outlook say nothing about their purpose, at least they aren't riddled with absurd Hungarian notation-esque prefixes like K. (MS prefers to prefix them with "Microsoft," which is at least readable, but equally annoying, and probably just to appease lawyers).

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23576123)

1. Let us not. Are you sure you can't disable them? 2. Considering the abundance of linux-application for a certain task that sort of do the same thing, it's this is a very nice way to have a preferred application.

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix (2, Interesting)

V!NCENT (1105021) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576699)

I thought KDE was dropping the entire 'K-thing'.

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix (5, Funny)

halivar (535827) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576771)

I kan't stand it, either, komrade.

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix (1)

carnalforge (1207648) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576903)

1. Let us disable the underlined letters in UI elements that signify the accelerators
And how is one supposed to know what combiantion to use for accelerators? Mind reading interface?

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix (1)

harry666t (1062422) | more than 6 years ago | (#23577125)

2. I handle this issue by having ":$HOME/bin" added to my PATH and having symlinks to all the apps I use frequently put there. Then I have Win+X bound to a launch box, and I have to type only one or two first letters of a program name to launch it (KWin's launch box is smart enough to remember which programs I use most often). Or do you just look at the program names and repeat them in your head so frequently that you can't stand the K letter anymore? Then you have a different sort of problem...

Regular beta or kde-beta? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23576543)

Is this similar to a traditional beta, as in feature complete but requires testing and bug-squishing, or is this a KDE4-style Seigo beta where barely anything is actually implemented or working?

I don't trust the KDE team anymore with their penchant for marketing doublespeak.

KDE3 replacement finally? (1)

otis wildflower (4889) | more than 6 years ago | (#23576587)

Huzzah! I've been fixin' to upgrade.. When will this be pushed to stable for kde-redhat RPMs?
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