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India Third to Appeal ISO's OOXML Approval

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 5 years ago | from the uphill-battle-not-over dept.

Software 99

I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "India is now the third country to appeal the ISO's approval of OOXML, with their appeal arriving just before the deadline last night. According to PC World, this makes OOXML the first BRM process under ISO/JTC 1 to be appealed, which leaves us in uncharted territory. Although there was substantial confusion in the comments on yesterday's story, Brazil is really appealing, not merely disapproving, of OOXML, having sent a letter that begins with 'The Associação Brasileira de Normas Técnicas (ABNT), as a P member of ISO/IEC/JTC1/SC34, would like to present, to ISO/IEC/JTC1 and ISO/IEC/JTC1/SC34, this appeal for reconsideration of the ISO/IEC DIS 29500 final result.' Groklaw speculates that this may have something to do with Microsoft hedging their bets by supporting ODF 1.1 in Office 2007, though we probably won't see any more countries appeal now that the deadline has passed."

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99 comments

sheesh (-1, Offtopic)

alexborges (313924) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605065)

It took you guys a while to get this one.

Re:sheesh (0, Offtopic)

alexborges (313924) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605071)

GASP

I cant believe it... did i make first post and wasted it on that lameity?

AAAAARRRRRRRGHHHHH Open That Window Joe, Im out!

Re:sheesh (0, Offtopic)

mrbluze (1034940) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605091)

I cant believe it... did i make first post and wasted it on that lameity?
You just blew all the +insightful / +funny modifiers by replying to your own first post. And you can't appeal, either.

Re:sheesh (-1, Offtopic)

alexborges (313924) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605107)

Meh...

IVe EXCELENT karma

Re:sheesh (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23605145)

IVe EXCELENT karma
My dogma is to browse at -1. Karma don't kount!

Re:sheesh (0, Offtopic)

alexborges (313924) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605387)

Mind bogling question: how the hell did you read mine?

Re:sheesh (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23605515)

Top right corner, next to your name, select customize, select Raw-Uncut view or whatever it is. By the way have you noticed the glut of moderators with no sense of humour reading this thread? Come on guys!

Re:sheesh (0, Offtopic)

alexborges (313924) | more than 5 years ago | (#23606315)

Why thank you!
On the other note: I have and completely agree...

Just to chitchat and get this ubermoderating gods ball rolling...

How about those Lakers huh?

Re:sheesh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23607613)

congrats to you three. thats at least 3 mod points that werent used to mod down a relevant post that said mods disagreed with!

MOD THIS SHIT UP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23608451)

Parent is either funny or insightful, I'm not sure. This whole thread is evidence of the complete stupidity and lameness of Slashdot moderators.

On the other-hand, the 'offtopic' mod really should be dropped. What's the point of a threaded conversation system if you can't go off-topic? Secondly: more general conversation means more page views, ergo ad views, for Slashdot's corporate overlords.

Banana peal. (-1, Offtopic)

mrbluze (1034940) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605083)

...we probably won't see any more countries appeal now that the deadline has passed
I guess I never went for countries appeal. Sex appeal, definitely, but countries appeal. What next, western appeal?

Re:Banana peal. (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23607199)

Note to moderators

The purpose of all these off-topic posts so early in the thread is to reduce the number of points available for insightful or interesting comments.

Microsoft evangelists do not like open discussion of their failures. Use your points to upmod good comments, not downmod red herrings.

Re:Banana peal. (1)

mrbluze (1034940) | more than 5 years ago | (#23607325)

The purpose of all these off-topic posts so early in the thread is to reduce the number of points available for insightful or interesting comments.
No it's not, first posts are usually lame because they're rushed in and the authors cant think of anything clever on the spot. Stop being an ideologue. And I've never met a Microsoft Evangelist - only a paid advertising rep. And moderators use your mod points as you see fit, not as some anonymous coward tells you to.

Re:Banana peal. (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23607737)

And I've never met a Microsoft Evangelist

Meet Your Local Microsoft Evangelists [microsoft.com]

Re:Banana peal. (1)

mrbluze (1034940) | more than 5 years ago | (#23607941)

Well I'll be damned (by Bill Gates) - I can already feel the BSOD hovering over me! Ok they call them Evangelists but they're no different from reps. Bastards. But anyway ok but I still reckon first post (or frosty piss) is a tradition that, though much maligned, always makes me smile.

Fourth country on the way (5, Informative)

David Gerard (12369) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605085)

Andy Updegrove says a fourth country may also have appealed [consortiuminfo.org].

A 4th appeal is just speculation right now... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23605293)

That's quite a big maybe, but here's what he says in the article you cited:

I have no news as yet whether the fourth country that planned to file an appeal has decided not to do so, missed the deadline, or sent its letter only to ISO (Peter reports that an ISO spokesman declined to confirm how many appeals it has received at this time. The deadline date is a matter of some confusion, as some National Bodies were under the impression that the deadline was June 2, so it remains possible that a fourth appeal will (or already has been) received.

In other technicality news, the IEC spokesman noted that the Brazil letter had been improperly addressed - duplicate copies should have been sent to the CEOs of both the IEC and ISO - but that this technical irregularity would be waived [Jonathan Buck, the IEC spokesman, inaccurately stated to Peter that the Indian appeal, rather than the Brazilian appeal, had been improperly addressed; the IDG story will be corrected shortly]

In other words, it's not surprising there's so much confusion in the reporting, because so many crazy things are going on. We have no proof of a 4th beyond a maybe, and there might be technicalities upon which to disqualify some of these and... Oogh.

- I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property [eff.org]

Re:Fourth country on the way (1)

Finallyjoined!!! (1158431) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605431)

How many are required to make it official?

Also, where is the appeal from BSI? T'would seem they stay bought.

Re:Fourth country on the way (5, Funny)

mrbluze (1034940) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605537)

How many are required to make it official?
I think the appeal has to be modded +4 insightful or +5 interesting otherwise Microsoft will just mod it +5 funny and the mod points go down the gurgler.

Re:Fourth country on the way (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23606029)

But the appeal is a response to (-1, Troll) attempt by Microsoft to undermine ISO. Microsoft has no right to mod because of that.

Re:Fourth country on the way (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23606147)

But they learned how to use sockpuppet accounts from twitter.

Re:Fourth country on the way (2, Funny)

tzot (834456) | more than 5 years ago | (#23606895)

Microsoft can't post and mod in the same committee. Or can they?

Re:Fourth country on the way (4, Interesting)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605823)

Given that technology experts in most every country where extremely vocally opposed to OOXML to begin with, I'm shocked that ONLY three or four have filed appeals.

Re:Fourth country on the way (3, Informative)

hedwards (940851) | more than 5 years ago | (#23606843)

TFA was somewhat vague on how many total appeals there were. It sounded like just 3, then a bit later, they indicated that they wouldn't announce the total list until later.

I was pretty sure that Norway in particular was going due to the abusive manner the discussions were held.

Re:Fourth country on the way (4, Interesting)

FromellaSlob (813394) | more than 5 years ago | (#23608415)

Given that technology experts in most every country where extremely vocally opposed to OOXML to begin with, I'm shocked that ONLY three or four have filed appeals.
Most of the commitees that were stacked by Microsoft to approve it remain stacked when it comes to appealing.

Fast Track (5, Interesting)

Gewalt (1200451) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605109)

If the approval was fast tracked, then the appeal should be too. Get that spec disqualified, FAST.

Re:Fast Track (2, Funny)

jd (1658) | more than 5 years ago | (#23606247)

No, I've a much better idea. Place the specification on a genuine fast track - say, the Monte Carlo F1 circuit - and let it be utterly crushed into oblivion before being smeared across the landscape.

Re:Fast Track (1)

Splab (574204) | more than 5 years ago | (#23607997)

You probably don't want to hit a 1000 page document when going around at 300 Km/h.

Re:Fast Track (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23608121)

6000 pages + 3000 pages of patches. And that's still not enough to describe their legacy of cruft.

Separate topic please (-1, Offtopic)

goodmanj (234846) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605171)

Can we have a new topic specifically for OOXML/ODF wars? We're up to two of these a day, and as I find them totally boring, I'd like to be able to filter them out.

Re:Separate topic please (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23605247)

Can we have a new topic specifically for OOXML/ODF wars?
Obviously there are some who find these wars extremely stimulating.

Re:Separate topic please (1)

Ilgaz (86384) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605319)

It belongs to YRO topic in fact. Your rights online.

They should put all ODF stories to YRO and people which will soon have to pirate/install/forced to buy Office 08 or Office 08 .NET subscription (oops crackers!) to read a frigging 2 page document can easily ignore them. ;)

India (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23605217)

Aren't they the ones that shake their heads when they mean no? Well there's yer problem.

Re:India (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23605295)

In most of the world, shaking the head is a NO (and nodding is a YES).

If you read somewhere that Indians shake their head for a YES, that is incorrect (I lived in India 25 years). There is an interesting "Indian head-roll" which is just an acknowledgment you are being heard and understood, rather than an agreement, though it can be (and has been) considered a weak form of agreement.

-srr

Re:India (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 5 years ago | (#23608345)

If you read somewhere that Indians shake their head for a YES, that is incorrect
So that's 'no, they don't'.

though it can be (and has been) considered a weak form of agreement.
And that's a 'yes, they do'

And people wonder why tech support doesn't make any sense...

Re:India (1)

the brown guy (1235418) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605487)

There are enormous differences between cultures in India, with several official languages that vary by region, 2 dominant religions, hundreds of castes etc. Also, as an Indian, we mean yes when we nod our heads.

Re:India (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 5 years ago | (#23606863)

I didn't realize that, the coworker I had from India some years back would shake yes and nod no. But it wasn't the same as when I shake no, it was a less sudden motion.

Anyways it wasn't really hard to figure out what he meant, even if you didn't realize that Indians from that part of India use a reverse system to the one in use in the US.

Re:India (1)

oldhack (1037484) | more than 5 years ago | (#23607197)

It's not shaking of head (i.e., rotating the head side-to-side on the horizontal plane), but rather tilting of the head side-to-side). I had thought it meant "sorta" or "you know" or similar depending on the context. Interesting bit of Indian culture. No, I'm not an Indian.

They won't count. (0, Flamebait)

arthurpaliden (939626) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605469)

You will probably find that in the end that no weight is given to these appeals because they all come from second and third world countries. Not real countries like the G8 who know enough not to rub salt in Microsofts wounds by puting forward an appeal especially if they voted no in the first place.

Re:They won't count. (1)

E IS mC(Square) (721736) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605749)

Probably, but then, shouldn't it be the 'poor' countries who are wary of Microsoft? After all, its Microsoft that's providing all those 'free' software to their educational institutes after all.

Re:They won't count. (4, Insightful)

underpants_gnome (1226602) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605763)

Second and third world countries that represent a huge market.

Brazil for example, is in the top 10 countries by both Internet Users and Time Spent Online, usually in the 2 top spots in the latter. Ok, most of this time is spent by teenagers in useless thing like Orkut and MSN, but whatever.

The important thing in this is: information can and WILL spread like a wildfire. And be sure that many people will embrace it.

If these "not-real" countries continue their "line of thinking", in the near future we could have more than 1 billion people that reject anything that comes from MS.

It wouldn't be wise to ignore THAT.

Re:They won't count. (5, Informative)

bigpicture (939772) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605981)

The math, the math, India is the No.2 most populous country and Brazil is No.5, with India expected to be No.1 within 15 years, because of China's population control measures. The opinion of a significant market of PC and smart phone users, probably does matter to MS.

Re:They won't count. (5, Insightful)

ZarathustraDK (1291688) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605825)

You will probably find that in the end that no weight is given to these appeals because they all come from second and third world countries.

Yet the new technological meccas Azerbaijan and C'ote D'ivoire gets taken seriously when voting in favor of OOXML?

Something sure smells fishy.

Re:They won't count. (1)

ignavus (213578) | more than 5 years ago | (#23608711)

"Something sure smells fishy."

Well, in Azerbaijan, that would be the sturgeon and the beluga taken from the Caspian Sea, according to Wikipedia.

Though you will be glad to know that Azerbaijan stocks of sturgeon and beluga are going down, so the fishy smell should diminish over time.

Re:They won't count. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23614521)

Something has smelled fishy from the start, and I don't think it was the Red Snapper!

Re:They won't count. Well, India(na) should JONES (0, Offtopic)

davidsyes (765062) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605957)

mshaft, and romance those stones....

Besides, as a rising superpower, India should "stick it to da man" (mshaft) and say, "MShaft, get sofffft..." Get SMART, India! Go with OpenOffice.org, or join the AsiaNux groups (China, Japan, Korea...)

(And, NO, i am not going to see Indiana Jones...I'm tired of remakes/rehashes, and Get Smart remake is just another nail in the lid... Sick of the poor excuses/realities for lack of originality)

Re:They won't count. Well, India(na) should JONES (1)

Kalriath (849904) | more than 5 years ago | (#23608155)

Where's the "-1: Incoherent" option, because seriously, that made no sense.

Yawn... Is This Important? (1, Interesting)

SerpentMage (13390) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605573)

You know I can understand the reason of why we want to do this. I can even understand why people want a neutral standard. BUT... You know this is so boring because it is not going to help me one ioata...

Yes, yes in the *future* all will better. And we will have solved world hunger, poverty and what have you...

Yes I am frustrated because I F****G wish they would make Open Office a REAL competitor to Office.

For example Calc in OO now has the ability to go beyond 256 columns... Wow, progress! NOT!

Maybe if OO became a REAL competitor Microsoft would think much harder about playing nice!

If you say, "hey you have the sources..." No, I want to pay for a Microsoft competitor!

Re:Yawn... Is This Important? (4, Insightful)

Miseph (979059) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605669)

Uh, actually, I'm sure they're thinking plenty hard about playing nice, and seeing as there is a competitor (OO is taking away some of their customers, even if only the ones who don't care about spread sheets going beyond 256 columns, and since it keeps getting markedly better where Office keeps getting markedly more irritating...) have decided that is a risk they simply cannot afford to take.

You must have been asleep for the past 2 decades, because otherwise you'd know by now that Microsoft's version of "playing nice" is creating a de facto standard that they alone control then avoiding making any changes 9even positive ones) to it so long as nobody else is in the game.

MS losing business to OOo? (4, Insightful)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605869)

Microsoft sells student copies of MS Office dirt cheap. I've seen a few schools install OOo side-by-side with MS Office, and some invididual users make the switch, but until major companies cancel mass volume licensing of MS Office, I don't see MS breaking a sweat.

The fact that several large governments were talking about ditching MS Office (over open file standards) is what got MS to play ball. Now that they support ODF (and likely OOXML once they iron that out as well a bit) those government agencies are likely to stay with MS Office.

Re:MS losing business to OOo? (1)

arctanx (1187415) | more than 5 years ago | (#23606119)

I reckon you'll see the opposite effect. With MS Office officially supporting ODF, you can just make your document in ODF and know that anyone running either office suite will be able to use it. Some businesses (the ones which are not too ingrained in their thinking) will say, "Well hang on a second. We want to be able to write our documents and have them work in Office. We can do that either by paying a huge amount of money to Microsoft, or by installing OpenOffice for free." So I don't think it's going to hurt.

Re:MS losing business to OOo? (4, Interesting)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 5 years ago | (#23606191)

Having worked for a few different Fortune 500 companies, OSS is often a dirty word. Executives only trust big names they know.

We only buy Microsoft and Dell for most things. We just bought an expensive Sharepoint Server, when a simple wiki would have saved tons of money. We use Linux, Unix and Solaris only in implementations largely dictated to us by vendors.

I think it makes sense to save money by going to OpenOffice, but corporate America doesn't always make sense.

Re:MS losing business to OOo? (3, Interesting)

ozmanjusri (601766) | more than 5 years ago | (#23607221)

corporate America doesn't always make sense.

Which is why they'll be overtaken by hungrier organisations that do make sense.

Re:MS losing business to OOo? (1)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 5 years ago | (#23611859)

More often the 32 billion dollar company buys the 20 million dollar company as soon as it attracts attention.
Then it converts it to the dominant corporate culture.

Re:MS losing business to OOo? (3, Insightful)

Fri13 (963421) | more than 5 years ago | (#23607877)

"OSS is often a dirty word."

Then stop using "Open Source" and start using "Free Software" and do not mention that "Free" means "Free as speech" and not "Free as beer", when ever you talk with persons who are money-slaves. Let them think that they get software for free and they dont need to pay for it. Then let the lawyers to take care of GPL and other people to understand they are actually using OSS.

Bosses and other persons who makes the decisions, dont need to know those, because they are so afraid that "Open Source" force them to publish their treasure. They are like pirates, you need to trick them. They are greedy, you need to give them to think they have control for everything.

They will learn actually...

Re:MS losing business to OOo? (2, Insightful)

jimicus (737525) | more than 5 years ago | (#23608191)

Bosses and other persons who makes the decisions, dont need to know those, because they are so afraid that "Open Source" force them to publish their treasure. They are like pirates, you need to trick them. They are greedy, you need to give them to think they have control for everything.
They will then instead adopt the age-old idea that you don't get something for nothing.

Remind them that (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23608489)

when they ask you to do some free overtime.

They know.

Re:MS losing business to OOo? (1)

fedtmule (614169) | more than 5 years ago | (#23607967)

OpenOffice may be OSS, but it is also backed by Sun. Thus, it seems to me that OpenOffice is already backed by a big name and your executives should be happy with OpenOffice.

Re:MS losing business to OOo? (1)

jimicus (737525) | more than 5 years ago | (#23608197)

OpenOffice may be OSS, but it is also backed by Sun. Thus, it seems to me that OpenOffice is already backed by a big name and your executives should be happy with OpenOffice.
Sun is a big name that's well known in technology circles. Unlike IBM or Microsoft, however, they're nowhere near as well known by people outside technology circles.

Re:MS losing business to OOo? (3, Insightful)

Miseph (979059) | more than 5 years ago | (#23606143)

"until major companies cancel mass volume licensing of MS Office"

Which will happen when *drumroll* enough individual users make the switch. I didn't say that OO was beating MS Office or even universally better than it (although for my needs it actually is, which is why I have declined to install MS Office even when offered it for free-as-in-beer), just that it is becoming a credible threat for the relatively near future.

The bottom line is that Firefox has demonstrated to Microsoft that FOSS can come out of nowhere to beat the crap out of their products, and now that one of their golden geese is being threatened they aren't about to take any chances. If they lose their Office monopoly, that's easily as bad to them as losing the Windows monopoly, not least because it directly threatens that one as well (why would corporate users want to pay money for Windows to run software that runs better and safer on any number of cheaper solutions?). It seems like they are realizing that they let OO continue and grow for far too long already, and they're actually concerned they might have to compete again, and on much worse terms with a far inferior track record than the last time around.

Re:MS losing business to OOo? (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 5 years ago | (#23606211)

I think people often forget that a big part of Firefox's growth and succcess was a good marketing campaign. Many other FOSS projects have great alternatives to Microsoft products, but just haven't been marketed.

The GetFirefox and SpreadFirefox campaigns were great. I'd love to see a campaign for OOo 3.

Re:MS losing business to OOo? (2, Insightful)

lorenzo.boccaccia (1263310) | more than 5 years ago | (#23608919)

True, but I think that firefox diffusion is a great threat to microsoft not for the internet explorer lose of market share, but for the change in the mindset of the common people, which for thousand years believed that you get more for more. Now that people are starting to see this firefox thing, which is better AND cheaper, people is starting to think in a dangerous way for microsoft.

Re:MS losing business to OOo? (3, Insightful)

moreati (119629) | more than 5 years ago | (#23606619)

Now that they support ODF

A minor nitpick. MS have stated their intention to support ODF. Until they deliver it's dangerous to assume or to state as fact, that support. Alex.

Re:MS losing business to OOo? (3, Insightful)

jimicus (737525) | more than 5 years ago | (#23608205)

A minor nitpick. MS have stated their intention to support ODF. Until they deliver it's dangerous to assume or to state as fact, that support. Alex.
More to the point, Microsoft are famously good at corrupting standards. I wouldn't be too surprised to see ODF "support" that amounts to "will happily read and render sensibly anything produced by OO.o, will go out of its way to write ODF files that for whatever reason OO.o doesn't like".

I'm confused... (3, Insightful)

zkiwi34 (974563) | more than 5 years ago | (#23607675)

Since when is a promise to support ODF the same as actual support of ODF? As in "will" does not mean the same as "does." Maybe it's me, but the future isn't the present, and as they said in "The Terminator," the future is not set. I also remember well Microsoft promising to support Kerberos, and look how much fun that wasn't.

ISO-OOXML compiance (1)

xbytor (215790) | more than 5 years ago | (#23608039)

> The fact that several large governments were talking about ditching MS Office (over open file standards) is what got MS to play ball. Now that they support ODF (and likely OOXML once they iron that out as well a bit) those government agencies are likely to stay with MS Office.

The problem is that MS Office is not compliant with ISO-OOXML. Nothing is. Nor are there standards to determine precisely what compliance means.

Re:ISO-OOXML compiance (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 5 years ago | (#23610727)

That's why I said, once they get that ironed out. I'm fully aware that they don't currently support their own supposed standard.

Not about OOo (2, Insightful)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605849)

This isn't about OOo versus MS Office. I don't mind paying for software. I just want to make sure that when I save a file, people can open it and read it, especially me a few years down the road. Microsoft's closed, proprietary formats keep changing (forcing unnecessary upgrades) and they drop support for old formats after a while.

I'm just some bum writer who wants to open my old files, but what about actual important documents? Right now PDF sadly is about the only way to go and feel safe the document can be read down the road.

If you're not happy with OOo's Calc, that is irrelevant to this discussion. Microsoft is going to provide support for ODF, and honestly that is enough to make me happy. I just wish they were supporting 1.2 right off the bat, instead of starting with 1.1.

Re:Not about OOo (1)

innocent_white_lamb (151825) | more than 5 years ago | (#23607203)

Right now PDF sadly is about the only way to go and feel safe the document can be read down the road.
 
Something wrong with ASCII text files?
 
Stuff that I want to be sure I can access long down-the-road I try to save as a plain text file if at all possible.
 
I still have files that I originally wrote using SpeedScript on my Commodore 64. I can actually still use SpeedScript to open and edit them on my Fedora Linux computers (thank you Vice [viceteam.org], but I also have plain-text versions that I can edit and view with pretty much anything.
 
I have long believed (and still believe) that the lowest-common-denominator in computer document files is a plain text file. In many cases, you're interested in the content and not the formatting, so plain text gets me where I'm going. And it generally takes up less space than a "fancier" format, too.

Re:Not about OOo (1)

Lord Flipper (627481) | more than 5 years ago | (#23607349)

Something wrong with ASCII text files?

Absolutely nothing at all. I used to save things as RTF files or in proprietary versions of such (and still have loads of doc files, being an Office user also). But everything that matters to me gets saved as plain text. (in either TextPad or BBEdit, platform depending).

I understand that the issues with file formats, and the corporate uses of Excel and whatnot, are a separate issue, entirely, but, for regular people like me, plain text is perfect. Content is king. (with all due respect to designers, as I do realize that the purpose can make design extremely important). But the data is what I need, over time.

If not Important, why is msft so desperate? (1)

walterbyrd (182728) | more than 5 years ago | (#23605895)

Anybody following the OOXML ISO approval process (or anybody who followed the Peter Quinn case) can see that msft is desperate and willing to go to any lengths to shove its bogus "standard" through the system.

BTW: ODF has nothing to do with openoffice. OpenOffice is an application, ODF is a document standard - like HTML or ASCII.

I use openoffice 2.4, it works for me, does all I need to do. Although I will admit, I considered every version of openoffice before 2.4 to be too slow.

Re:If not Important, why is msft so desperate? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23606359)

BTW: ODF has nothing to do with openoffice. OpenOffice is an application, ODF is a document standard - like HTML or ASCII

Huh? ODF is the standardization of StarOffice's document format, the same way OOXML is the standardization of Office's document format. OpenOffice is an open source version of StarOffice. Hence, clearly ODF has a lot to do with OpenOffice.

Furthermore, Sun limited the scope of ODF standardization to exactly what was needed by StarOffice, no more and no less.

Re:If not Important, why is msft so desperate? (3, Informative)

Insanity Defense (1232008) | more than 5 years ago | (#23606693)

The Open Office/Star Office file format was the basis for ODF but it received fairly extensive reworking in the process of creating ODF.

Re:If not Important, why is msft so desperate? (1)

walterbyrd (182728) | more than 5 years ago | (#23609897)

> Huh? ODF is the standardization of StarOffice's document format, the same way OOXML is the standardization of Office's document format.

Not at all. ODF is used in about 20 different applications. It can even be used with ms-office. ODF is wide open, and any vendor is welcome to use it. OOXML can only be used by msft, and vedors approved by msft.

Saying that ODF can only be used by OpenOffice, is like saying that ASCII can be used by vi.

Re: What? (1)

pizzach (1011925) | more than 5 years ago | (#23606657)

Maybe if OO became a REAL competitor Microsoft would think much harder about playing nice!
I hope you come back later and realize how little sense your sentence makes. Companies don't waste time, money, or resources on non-competitors. That's essentially the same as shitting money out.

Re: What? (2, Interesting)

hedwards (940851) | more than 5 years ago | (#23606925)

Well run corporations don't do that. But corporations the size of Google or MS or IBM have a lot of money at their disposal, I don't believe that any of those 3 couldn't shit an obscene amount of money and still be in business.

Sure, it's a poor way of doing business, shitting money that is, but large corporations do it all the time on stupid stuff. I mean just look at IE and silverlight. You can't say either of those was ever particularly centered on profit. IE alone has probably cost MS billions in terms of extra exploit patching and anti-trust litigation. And even under ideal circumstances, it lacks a way of bringing in money.

Re: What? (1)

Insanity Defense (1232008) | more than 5 years ago | (#23608147)

Sure, it's a poor way of doing business, shitting money that is, but large corporations do it all the time on stupid stuff. I mean just look at IE and silverlight. You can't say either of those was ever particularly centered on profit. IE alone has probably cost MS billions in terms of extra exploit patching and anti-trust litigation. And even under ideal circumstances, it lacks a way of bringing in money.

You have to remember the context in which IE was developed. Netscape was the darling of the computer world and there was a great deal of talk of how the browser would be the OS in the future. IE was a strategic move to kill an enemy to the Windows cash cow and it worked. However they can't just stop out of fear that another browser will do what Netscape appeared poised to do.

Silverlight is different. That is typical Microsoft, wait until someone else has proven an idea and then try to either a/ buy it or b/ copy it, then c/ squeeze the original from the market while tying the Microsoft version to Windows. Silverlight is Microsofts attempt to copy what they have not managed to buy namely Flash.

Re:Yawn... Is This Important? (4, Insightful)

howlingmadhowie (943150) | more than 5 years ago | (#23607817)

who modded this insightful?

this isn't about openoffice.org, this is about people having access to their own information. This is about governments being able to read all the documents they are making now in the future. This is about unfettered, exact communication between countries.

in short, this is remarkably important. I can't think of anything more important in communication than open standards.

Re:Yawn... Is This Important? (1)

Bert64 (520050) | more than 5 years ago | (#23608323)

If OpenOffice wasn't seen as a threat, then MS wouldn't need to work so hard keeping their formats closed and obscure.
If they truly had the better product, it could stand on it's own and they wouldn't need to use dirty tricks to keep market share.

Sex-craved love goddesses. (-1, Offtopic)

mungmaster2000 (1180731) | more than 5 years ago | (#23606621)

Little Billy Jackson had to go to the store for his mother to pick up some postage stamps. When he got there, he found the stamp machine out of order, and decided to walk the extra three blocks to the post office. On the way there, he passed a hardware store, a variety store, and a lamp shop. The line was short at the post office and he got his stamps quickly and returned home. His dog, "Spider," bounded out to greet him as his mom waved from the porch. Billy's mother was pleased at the job he did and congratulated him on having enough sense to go to the post office when he found the stamp machine was broken. Billy had a nice dessert that night and went to bed.

I wish... (2, Insightful)

mathimus1863 (1120437) | more than 5 years ago | (#23606881)

I'd love to believe this will make a difference, but I suspect the same bribing/stacking/manipulation MS used before will succeed again.

Appeal after the standard was passed? (1)

Gundamdriver (1288510) | more than 5 years ago | (#23607431)

I just wonder one thing that, why someone/ some countries can appeal to a standard once it is passed to be a standard? I thought once it is a standard then everyone must agree that it is a standard, no matter you agree with it/ vote for it.

Re:Appeal after the standard was passed? (1)

JohnBailey (1092697) | more than 5 years ago | (#23607931)

I just wonder one thing that, why someone/ some countries can appeal to a standard once it is passed to be a standard? I thought once it is a standard then everyone must agree that it is a standard, no matter you agree with it/ vote for it.
The appeal process was known about from day one. Kind of like a provisional grant, which becomes permanent after the time to appeal is up, which it was on the 31st of May

All countries are entitled to appeal. Three did. More may have done so without the desire to make it public.

Re:Appeal after the standard was passed? (3, Interesting)

Jesus_666 (702802) | more than 5 years ago | (#23608693)

Yes, but if a country suspects that there have been irregularities they can call schenanigans.

Imagine this: The country of Lithuanistan is a voting member of ISO. United Megacorp has a smaller standards body like ECMA put a standard they cooked up on the ISO fast-track process. Everything proceeds as expected and the Lithuanistanian national body votes YES on the standard, even though most Lithuanistanian techies are very sceptical about it. A week after the vote, though, someone from UniMeg leaks documents that show that the entire Lithuanistanian NB had been bought off by UniMeg and they didn't vote because the standard hat merit but because they liked their new cars.

Lithuanistan is pissed. They want a chance to stop the standardization process (or at least freeze it for further investigation), now that they can prove it has been tampered with. However, all votes have already been cast. This appeals process is what they'd use: If you have doubt that the standardization process went as it should you can appeal before the standard becomes final.

Three countries wasting taxpayers' money (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23607875)

I wonder how the citizens feel about their money being wasted on these appeals to satisfy the hatred of Microsoft by a few loudmouthed geek fanboys?

This is truly pathetic.
If Brazil, India, and SA don't like OOXML, THEN THEY DON'T HAVE TO USE IT!!! Why get in the way of every other country using it under the ISO imprimatur if they choose to do so? This is the height of selfishness by these three countries and the anti-Microsoft geeks that talked them into taking this stupid action.

Re:Three countries wasting taxpayers' money (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23608145)

So you're saying that it's ok that the ISO don't follow their own rules [robweir.com]?

And that no one can actually use OOXML [robweir.com] as Microsoft acknowledge by saying that they're not going to implement it until 2011?

Grow up and stop blaming geeks for Microsoft's poor actions and the geeks calling them out for it.

Re:Three countries wasting taxpayers' money (5, Interesting)

Insanity Defense (1232008) | more than 5 years ago | (#23608185)

I wonder how the citizens feel about their money being wasted on these appeals to satisfy the hatred of Microsoft by a few loudmouthed geek fanboys?

It couldn't possibly be because the proposed standard was too complex and too defective to be fast tracked in the 1st place? Consider that over 80% of the problems with the specification had soloutions proposed by ECMA but "due to lack of time" not reviewed or discussed. The committee should have been able to review and if needed revise those "solutions". The fact that one private body was given unsupervised control of "fixes" when it was supposed to be the committee composed of National representatives that had the actual say to me is a good enough reason to appeal.

All that of course ignores the ongoing scandals and accusations that the system was twisted by Microsofts wealth and power rather than following the rules.

An excerpt from South Africas appeal giving the core of their reasons.

This appeal is made in accordance with Clause 11.1.2: "A P member of JTC 1 or an SC may appeal against any action, or inaction, on the part of JTC 1 or an SC when the P member considers that in such action or inaction:

* questions of principle are involved;

* the contents of a draft may be detrimental to the reputation of IEC or ISO; or

* the point giving rise to objection was not known to JTC 1 or SC during earlier discussions."

We believe that there is an important question of principle involved and that the reputation of ISO/IEC is indeed at stake. There has been speculation about the need to revise the directives around fast track processing. While such revision might indeed be necessary, we cannot accept the outcome of a process which the existing directives have not, in our opinion, been applied.

It appears that they are appealing not to satisfy peoples hatred of Microsoft but because the rules state that appeals should be launched for one of 3 reasons all of which South Africa feels apply.

Re:Three countries wasting taxpayers' money (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23611365)

The rasons that S.A. and you cite are straight out of MS-haters' talking points, alsmost as if the MS-Haters themselves wrote the appeal. This is not a surprise, since a large percentage of the original OOXML objections were penned directly by the MS-hating portion of IBM, headed by Rob Weir and Bob Sutor.

Come of with some real reasons with real evidence, otherwise S.A. is wasting everybody's time on a witch hunt.

Re:Three countries wasting taxpayers' money (2, Informative)

Insanity Defense (1232008) | more than 5 years ago | (#23613663)

The rasons that S.A. and you cite are straight out of MS-haters' talking points, alsmost as if the MS-Haters themselves wrote the appeal. This is not a surprise, since a large percentage of the original OOXML objections were penned directly by the MS-hating portion of IBM, headed by Rob Weir and Bob Sutor.

Come of with some real reasons with real evidence, otherwise S.A. is wasting everybody's time on a witch hunt.

So you don't think that having over 80% of the proposed resolutions for issues with OOXML not being discussed by anyone outside of ECMA is significant? You don't think that fast tracking a specification that is between 6000 and 7000 pages long is inappropriate? I think that the specification is too large for the fast track. I think that allowing ECMA as Microsofts agent to control without over sight so many of the fixes to objections is unacceptable.

All that ignores the scandals associated with the "passing" of OOXML.

South Africa, Brazil, India and Denmark have all objected now. Do you think that all four nations are now being controlled by "Microsoft hating geeks"? I think that unlikely. I think it more likely that they have valid objections. We will just have to wait and see how it works out.

Given Microsofts past history (and convictions around the world) I think it more likely that the objections are valid. Microsoft does have a history of trying illegal methods to stifle competition. Did they not in the DOJ vs Microsoft case falsify evidence that was presented to the judge?

Re:Three countries wasting taxpayers' money (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23616015)

A witch hunt? I tell you, if the council of witches said they'd disarm by the 31st of March and two months later they hadn't then I'd be grabbing my pitchfork and flaming torches.

There's your evidence, witch ;) Your only response so far has been to say that the rules don't matter, witch ;)

Is Microsoft covertly encouraging piracy ? (1)

CalcuttaWala (765227) | more than 5 years ago | (#23608137)

I understand that MS Gold Partners are activly but verbally encouraging universities and schools to purchase a few paper licenses and allowing all students to use MS Office in an attempt to undermine OpenOffice ... even MS India staff is involved in this scam .. but since nothing is on paper, their deniability is complete ..

"ABNT [...] would like to present this appeal"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23608475)

And I would like a pony. Tough. The right wording would have been "ABNT herewith appeals according to regulations xxx".

Given how much fun the approving bodies had in twisting words already, it is a mistake to give them any more interpretation leeway.

They'll likely not go far perverting the course of things at this stage, but it is not like they would not try.

Voice of Inidia is important (1)

alukin (184606) | more than 5 years ago | (#23608675)

India is country #1 in outsourcing and this fact makes appeal very important for global OSS community.
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