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Perl 5.6 Release Candidate Announced

Hemos posted more than 14 years ago | from the getting-closer dept.

Perl 105

thing12 wrote to us to say that the fine folks of Perl have a 5.6.0 release candidate announced.

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Upcoming version... (3)

deuteron (13274) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211685)

Expect 5.6.00001_0000320026800023 to be out soon.

Don't download it all at once, guys! (2)

pb (1020) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211686)

Beta release. For developers only.

Not even a writeup on it yet, so don't slashdot the site any earlier than you have to!

It is great to see some Perl development, though.
We're one step closer to version 6.6.6!

Anyone know when they're rewriting it all in C++?
(or are those two statements related? :)
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11] .

No Python Advocacy, please... also, what bugs? (0)

raistlinne (13725) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211687)

Can we please not have every python advocate on slashdot jump out and shout about how hard a time they have reading perl code? I'm sure python is a great language, though I have no interest in using any language which uses whitespace instead of braces. The only thing all this python advocacy achieves is making the python crowd look quite unhospitable. The perl community is a really nice one to be a part of, and if you notice you'll find very few perl folks flaming the python folks, it only goes the other way around. Can the python flamers for once just let people use the perfectly open, standard tools that they want.

I've never had any significant trouble reading perl code in various modules that I've used. I have had trouble reading reading python examples that people have posted. What does this prove? I've used to perl and not python. Python isn't magic, and it doesn't suit some people. Can we just let that be?

Anyhow, on to the question at hand. I've heard that perl 5.6 is mostly a bugfix release. What bugs are there to fix? I've never run accross any myself, and I use perl quite a bit. Does anyone here have any examples of the sorts of bugs being fixed? I'm quite curious what they are.

The nice thing about Perl (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211688)

I like how Perl keeps things nice & standard. It's not like *$ome* companies where when they update, things you previously coded suddenly becomes useless. Then you have to adjust it to the new compiler/program/whatever.

I tried this up against some old Perl scripts and it runs fine and that's all I really care about.

Since-beer-leekz,
Mikey

Re:Don't download it all at once, guys! (1)

coug_ (63333) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211689)

Anyone know when they're rewriting it all in C++?

IIRC, 5.6 was supposed to be the C++ rewrite. I've been wrong before.. stranger things have happened. :)

Re:The nice thing about Perl (0)

SkullRape (96773) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211690)

Ummm... welll
thats a nice little theory, BUT
the reason why 'certain' apps/software/whatever are bloated and unstable is because they try to make everyhting backwards compatible, and end up with 5 times more shit than they need to have. Lets face it. Do realy need to run software that was desighned for Win3x. Ofcourse not. You have to break 'compatibility' in order to persue new goals and to embrace new technology. Fuck all of this 'I wanna remain compatible' bs.

Re:No Python Advocacy, please... also, what bugs? (2)

Anonymous Coed (8203) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211691)

Can we please not have every perl advocate on slashdot jump out and shout about how hard a time they have understanding a language where every third character isn't an @, brace, or semicolon? I'm sure perl is a great language, though I have no interest in maintaining any code from such an "expressive" language.

Re:haiku (0)

Bad-Tech (136355) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211692)

Yes this is news for nerds. How is not?

Perl 6 (2)

Catatonic Dismay (88112) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211693)

Perl 6, nicknamed Topaz is the one that is going to be rewritten with C++. Go to Perl.com and you can find a good realaudio thingy of the person who is writing the core of it and he talks about what's going to be in it and why C++, etc.

Is Tom Christiansen Dead? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211694)

I haven't seen any posts by him in quite some time.

Thanks for the info Freshmeat !!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211695)

Oh wait, this isn't Freshmeat. Can't tell by the articles, though.

Perl Sux/R00Lz (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211696)

--Snip-- Ummm... welll thats a nice little theory, BUT the reason why 'certain' apps/software/whatever are bloated and unstable is because they try to make everyhting backwards compatible, and end up with 5 times more shit than they need to have. --EndSnip-- That's true in many cases. But, Perl isn't doing trying to do anything new. It's just shooting for a bug-less scripting language. --Snip-- Lets face it. Do realy need to run software that was desighned for Win3x. Ofcourse not. You have to break 'compatibility' in order to persue new goals and to embrace new technology. Fuck all of this 'I wanna remain compatible' bs. --EndSnip-- What about simply perfecting the technology that you have instead of a constant barrage of new, but buggy technology? Oh, and while I'm at it, FSCK-ing STOP ALL OF THIS RELIGIOUS WAR CRAP! Whenever I hear all of these flame-heads saying, "Perl Sux, Python Rox!" "No, Python Sux, Perl Rox!" , it sounds like a bunch of morons in a garage going "Hammers Rule, Wrenchs Suck" "Phillips Screwdrivers Rule, Flathead Screwdrivers Suck." FACE IT. These are all TOOLS! Why bother wasting flamage on it. I like having a slew of programming tools to play with. Different jobs require different tools, and the more tools to perform the job I have, the better. Since-beer-leekz, Mikey

Old news :-) (3)

tilly (7530) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211697)

ActiveState [activestate.com] has been offering betas based on this software for nearly a month!

OK, OK, so they just released an earlier snapshot all packaged together. Same development series. And it was not a release candidate (meaning the developers were not prepared to call it a final release if nobody found any bugs).

But still. :-)

Cheers,
Ben

Happened before, will happen again... (2)

tilly (7530) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211698)

You are wrong. :-)

Topaz is the C++ version. When that stabilizes it will be called Perl 6.0.

This is another in the 5.x series.

Cheers,
Ben

uh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211699)

So when are you changing the site name to slashmeat.org -- that would sound better than freshdot.org don't you think?

Re:haiku (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211700)

>slashdot's not freshmeat
thats how. I am suprised that they don't announce every patch submitted to the kernel gang.

Re:uh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211701)

and both domain names are available!

Re:Perl Sux/R00Lz (0)

SkullRape (96773) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211702)

you're an idiot! One particular language is not a TOOL its a TOOL set. You see, some people (you) like to use big plastic tools from Mattel (perl) then others (like me) like to use real [shiny] Craftsman tools (C,asm...).
Eat me, I'm danish

WTF are you talking about? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211703)

Dude, I don't see any "Python advocacy" on this thread. Is this some sort of pre-emptive strike on your part? Are you expressing your insecurity about a language that took you 3 years to master only to discover that it's only good for quick-hack logfile and report parsers?

Perl sucks. Python sucks. Slashdot sucks. Anonymous Cowards suck. Back to work.

PERLy Pythons (1)

RancidPickle (160946) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211704)

PERL and Python have their uses and strongpoints.

Two of my domains are hosted by a company that does not have Python capability. All of the hosts I use have PERL. Therefore, I use PERL.

Does that mean I will avoid Python? No, since I enjoy learning new things and when I have a use for learning Python, I will. PERL is just more prevalant right now. Should there be a huge upswing towards Python, we'll all learn it.

Choosing between the two, at this juncture, is like choosing what distro you want to use. All are good, but there's just something about one that gets your attention. The folks who visit here are not idiots, for the most part. If scripting is your bag, you'll choose what's more comfortable for you.

I'm downloading it so I can see what's changed. If noone uses it, it can't improve or get bugs ironed out.

Yes! (1)

jallen02 (124384) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211705)

Ive been waiting for a good reason to replace bash with perl! Muahahaa. I wonder if any of my system users would notice...

(sorry if this posted twice:-)

Re:uh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211706)

Ya, you's think out of the 300 or so submissions per day, that they could at least post something besides software releases.

Re:uh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211707)

Seems like Hemos is the main software releases poster there at /.

Re:The nice thing about Perl (2)

slashdot-terminal (83882) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211708)

Ummm... welll
thats a nice little theory, BUT
the reason why 'certain' apps/software/whatever are bloated and unstable is because they try to make everyhting backwards compatible, and end up with 5 times more shit than they need to have. Lets face it. Do realy need to run
software that was desighned for Win3x. Ofcourse not. You have to break 'compatibility' in order to persue new goals and to embrace new technology. Fuck all of this 'I wanna remain compatible' bs.


Ok I have a little problem with this. I have just finished a rather long and difficult program (for me) and I would rather not have to port it to a new and "improved" version of the compiler when it is "upgraded". Backwards compatability is not necessarily a bad thing. It just insures that people will be able to compile the program and use language constructs that they are used to.

The perfect language would have the ability to use hundreds of different structures and things (including all the "bad" things like goto's and other evil things) then the programmer could use whatever they like for whatever task that they like and not have to wory about what the person who designed the language cared about at the time.

Actually no... versioning has changed (3)

ggoebel (1760) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211709)

Perl has moved to Linux style versions. Where even numbers are stable and odd are development:

  • v5.6.0 = stable
  • v5.7.1 = development track

Expect to see v5.6.0.1-n soon ;)

Then Perl is perfect for you :-) (1)

tilly (7530) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211710)

Yes, it even supports goto().

I tried it, it worked, I shuddered...

Cheers,
Ben

Re:uh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211711)

Also on Slashmeat-
- tcpdump2ascii 2.00
- Guppi 0.34.3
- OpenMuscat 0.1.0
- YumfK 0.5
- sfront 0.57
- GtkExtra 0.99.1
- Yams 0.6.1
- tab_merge_pdf 0.1
- WebPrint 0.01
- GNU Phantom.Security 1.00
- jpilot-Mail 0.0.2
- GNU Phantom.Home Beta0.62a
- isdn-config 0.6-10
- mpatrol 1.1.1
- daemontools 0.70
- NMPEG 0.02
- xremote 1.3
- lftp 2.1.10
- SquirrelMail 0.3
- PresTiMeL 0.5
- CONFIG:: 0.99.08
- Sing Along Disc Player 3.0.1
- Karchiveur 0.80
- QpThread Library for C++ 1.0.0
- wakeup 0.0.2
- GQL 0.0a0.2
- phpMyChat 0.7.1
- Modicon Ethernet Library (MEL) 0.0.1
- Gorm 000215
- ascpu 1.9
- sharesecret 0.1.0
- Webwatcher 0.1.2
- Tk 42 0.2.0

Re:Yes! (1)

jallen02 (124384) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211712)

I suppose you are not in the mood for humor ehh?
Go troll someone elses comment :P

Re:Perl Sucks. Python Doesn't. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211713)

Blows a big tab-sensitive hard-indented object-oriented abstract inherited pecker interface.

Then we're agreed (1)

raistlinne (13725) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211714)

I have no desire to maintain code from any language where doing things "right" is more important than getting things done or writing efficient code. So I won't maintain your python code and you won't maintain my perl code. Sounds good to me.

What does Python have that Perl doesn't? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211715)

And don't give me that "forces you to be structured" crap, because that's not an advantage, it's a limitation. Because perl seems to have lots that python doesn't have. (great regexp engine, CPAN, great embedded persistant interpreters like mod_perl, etc.) Also, I don't understand why all the python supporters complain about not being able to read perl code?!? What's hard to read about it? It appears pretty easy to me. Maybe you guys should sit down and spend half and hour and learn the basic syntax of it.

Re:Perl 6 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211716)

Well, as much as I like C++ as a language .. given the current state of affairs as far as GNU gcc is concerned this is going to become troublesome.

No, not talking about bugs but up to know one could quite well plug in a binary version half a year later and it would just run.

If it comes to C++ though it is easy to end up with either various versions of libstdc++ or a statically linked in version. Glad this is mostly a self built system, but to have found me using a binary editor on a *nix system again made me feel a wee bit silly. At least NS is working fine with libstdc++-3-libc6.1-2-2.10.0.so ... urks ... too.

Now although the situation is not as quiet as bad on other installations there is probably not one really standards compliant C++ compiler out there yet.

Conclusion ? Not sure; might be stick with release five or be willing to become more involved in development as you have ever been, as far as Perl is concerned.

Re:Then we're agreed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211717)

I have no desire to maintain code from any language where doing things "right" is more important than getting things done or writing efficient code.

Be sure and tell that to your potential manager when you graduate and go to look for a job. There's nothing we like better than slashhacks who don't give a damn about maintenance or understandable code. We love paying for months of work and then throwing it out because nobody else can understand it or enhance it.

Yessir -- arrogant hacks fresh from college who get hard-ons from writing unmaintainable line noise because it makes then feel smart. That what we want. I'm sure you'll get the position you so richly deserve.

Re:WTF are you talking about? (1)

raistlinne (13725) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211718)

Yes, there was no python advocacy in this thread, though that's probably because the thread is so new. Prettymuch every thread I've seen on slashdot in the last six months having to do with perl, even just by offhandedly mentioning it, has gotten a whole collection of python advocates flaming perl and getting marked as insightful for some reason.

And no, I'm not expressing any insecurity. I started learning perl about two and a half years ago. I haven't really done much with it until a few months ago. Everything that I've had to learn has been very easy to learn, I've just learned it as I need it.

If anyone has to be insecure about a language, it's you python people. The best attribute of python in its advocates eyes at least is that you don't have to actually be intelligent to learn the syntax. Big deal. Wow. So you have to learn Perl's syntax. Is learning really that painful for you?

It's also quite amusing that python advocates often talk about Perl's OO parts being bolted on. I know that they're quite easy and not pervasive, if that's what's meant. Thank God. OO has many legitimate places, it's also not the best way to do everything. Python doesn't even have a simple C-like for statement. Python goes back to the good old days of fortran-77 when whitespace was significant. Even fortran got rid of that stupid shackle.

Oh, I'm nearly done with a graphical checkbook register written in perl, it was quite easy to do. I'm working on a web-based email program that's also pretty easy in the programming side (it's just a big project). I've got a web index-generating program written in Perl, and a message-board written in Perl. Perl is quite nice for small jobs and large ones. As the motto goes: make the easy stuff easy and the hard stuff doable.

Just out of curiosity, does python force you to handle all exceptions the way that Java does?

Re:What does Python have that Perl doesn't? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211719)

You hit nail on the head! Gimme one reason to switch to Python! I'll continue to use perl because it's more more widely supported, more flexible and prettier too :)

Perl and Python wars (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211720)

In order to bring peace to the community, I'm proposing two great projects:

1) Perlipy -- re-write Perl in Python.

2) Pythiperl -- re-write Python in Perl.

This will be a great advance and bring peace and joy to us all.

skullrape != dork (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211721)

judgeing from your previous coments i think your the idiot why not be constructive, he was.

TROLLS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211722)

The trolls are way out of control. Am I the only person who thinks this is very anoying. These people are not funny.

Re:WTF are you talking about? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211723)

Well, the only Python advocacy I've seen on this thread has been pretty obvious trolling. On the other hand, I've found a couple of, "Perl is good. Python is overrated." posts that look serious. It sure looks like the Perl advocates are starting the flamewars this time.

I'm not one of, "you python people". I checked Python out, found that it didn't offer me anything I couldn't already do in other languages, and left it at that. Please don't include me in your gang accusations.

I have no idea whether or not Python forces exception handling like Java. What's wrong with that? Every Perl reference I've seen encourages -w and "use strict". Is that so different? It's just forcing the programmer to be aware of possible errors while actually writing the code. I've mentored a few junior programmers and, frankly, I think error-state awareness is a good thing. Junior programmers always assume SUCCESS as a return value. Experienced ones don't.

The best attribute of python in its advocates eyes at least is that you don't have to actually be intelligent to learn the syntax.

Actually, it's that kind of arrogant pseudo-wizard attitude that makes Perl programmers so irritating. Why focus on the damn syntax when you should be focusing on the problem you're trying to solve? Mastering obscure operators and obfuscated syntax does NOT make you a good programmer. Solving problems in a way that is elegant and extensible does. I see so many Perl programmers who think that they're geniuses because they know every possible way to perform a regexp search. What a waste of time and brainpower -- mastering a hammer instead of mastering the art of driving nails.

When you write code, are you just trying to find something that works, or are you thinking about the person who will be sitting in your chair next year trying to make your stuff work? I have very few complaints about Perl, but most Perl programmers drive me crazy with their self-importance and shortsightedness.

Microsoft has him (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211724)

They needed someone to help that kid they bought for $10 million. The kid was mastering everything they threw at him, until he got a copy of Learning Perl. He suddenly started convulsing and puking, then he could only huddle in a corner saying "can't sleep, clown will eat me." So Microsoft thought hiring Tom full time to help the kid understand Perl would cure him. The kid is getting better... he can see a picture of a llama without screaming, but camels still scare him.

Re:Then we're agreed (1)

raistlinne (13725) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211725)

You misunderstand me. I care quite a bit about maintenance. have you ever read the linux coding standard? It probably violates quite a bit of what's considered "good" coding practice in python-land.

I "use strict;" in all of my programs. Writing maintainable code and writing "good" code are two different things. Sometimes it makes code more maintainable to violate standard spacing practice (rarely, but I've seen it in most of the code that I've looked at). Sometimes faster code is perfectly maintainable but not asthetically pleasing to a python programmer.

The point isn't about maintainable versus untmaintainable, it's about the python way versus flexibility. For some reason, one particular way of doing things has become codified in pyton-land as the "right" way.

Python doesn't even have a goddam for statement. At least not one that iterates like a C for statement. Instead you have to pull some bullshit about taking pieces of an array. I didn't even bother trying to follow at that point in the tutorial. If you really like python, fine. I'm sure that you'd love cobol, too. That one has a leg up on python as it's supposed to be self-documenting.

Oh, and can python do anything like the -e 'code' functionality of perl, where you can do simple tasks without having to pull up a file editor?

I have my serious doubts about python. The only virtue that I've ever heard extolled by its admirers is that it makes life more doable for the unintelligent. Well, maybe what you need is morons on your staff who have a few programming skills and pretend to be programmers. Maybe you even have a few good ones who prefer python. But please don't make the presumption that because not everyone needs crutches those who don't can't walk properly? I don't need the crutch of whitespace indenting on every line to be able to read a program. It can help so I always put it in my programs, but then again there are places where it hurts more than it helps. So Perl trusts that the people programming in it aren't idiots. Python doesn't. Fine. Just because you have no judgement and can't write readable code without help doesn't mean that other people can't.

To date none of my perl code comes close to being able to win the obfuscated perl contest. Why? Because I'm writing code for people to maintain. It's quite doable, you simply have to want to do it.

If you hire programmers who don't want their code to be readable but think that python is the magic cure, then you deserve what you'll end up with.

Oh, and you know what? Sometimes it's the right thing to do to have some sections of code which need to be blazingly fast and as a result are hard for all but a few really good people to maintain. You can have the slow video drivers, I'll take the ones with inline assembly thank you. The same things goes for everywhere. Sometimes the more important thing is execution time. Remember that there are going to be people who occasionally use your programs (at least there are people who use Perl programs) and their time isn't so tremendously less valuable than yours. So some sections (well contained if done right) will take more time to maintain and require more skill to do so. Big deal. To do things exceptionally well requires exceptional people. This is no different in programming than any other field.

Note, this is only applicable to small and well-contained areas. Inline assembly is only used in certain places in video drivers. In all things, do the task in such a way as to save the most human time. Somtimes that is the programmers time, sometimes the user's time. And always balance this with having programs which work properly.

Thankfully, computers should eventually be fast enough where you don't need competent programmers to write usuable programs, then everyone can use python.

Btw, can python do multi-threading? Once you start to get that complex, you'll need intelligent programmers anyhow, so the whole having to learn the syntax argument will be lost. And so will, in most cases, the argument about readability. When you hire good people one of the things that you should hire them for is their ability to write readable programs. Note: that's readable by other competant and skilled people, not readable by morons.

Though maybe you're one of those companies who's trying to hire a lot of morons rather than a few skilled people. In that case by all means use python. You'll need all the help you can get to get your people to write mediocre programs.

If you ever switch to a company where skilled people are hired and they take pride in what they do, then use whatever language you want. Programmers who write readable code write readable programs. It really is as simple as that.

Damn Skippy! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211726)

But you forgot to mention that Perl people are also filthy-assed, wait-in-line-for-toilet-paper, long haired, scragly bearded, coke-bottle glassed, pigeon-hole careered COMMIE FUCKING BASTARDS!

RMS MUST DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!

thank you.

Control of Perl too tight (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211727)

My gripe is that they don't have any versions of that camel that I can put on my website. I like that I can go out and grap a picture of Tux and put it up... but they've got that camel controlled. What a bitch! I want a free camel that I can use to promote Perl because it is so great, and slashdot posts stuff on the least little thing that happens with it.

Re:Then we're agreed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211728)

Sometimes it's the right thing to do to have some sections of code which need to be blazingly fast....

Then, for the love of God, why are you writing it in Perl?

Also, please don't try to impress us by dropping "multi-threading" into your argument. If you're doing threading in a scripting language, well, "intelligent programmer" is certainly not the first thing that springs to mind. "One-language wanker" is pretty high, however.

Re:What does Python have that Perl doesn't? (1)

tuffy (10202) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211729)

Does Perl have exceptions or try/finally blocks? How about operator overloading? Personally, I don't care much if Perl has them or not - but last time I checked it didn't. So that's a couple things. Perl is nice. Python is nice. I just happen to prefer Python.

Perl and Python sucks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211730)

I don't need it. I can do a lot of things with shell scripts. BTW, BTW.

Perl and Python sucks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211731)

I don't need it. I can do a lot of things with shell scripts. BTW, BTW.

Re:TROLLS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211732)

WHAT-
Is your quest??
Perhaps if Slashmeat did not post so many damn software releases like Freshmeat, they would not get Trolled upon as much.

Re:WTF are you talking about? (1)

tuffy (10202) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211733)

Just out of curiosity, does python force you to handle all exceptions the way that Java does?
In JavaSpeak, all Python exeptions are runtime exceptions. It won't complain at compile time if you don't catch them but it will be lethal to your app if it propagates to the top. Sometimes this is the desired behavior (I/O errors) and sometimes you'd best put some checks in place (tuple accesses).

I deserve... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211734)

a -1 for this post.

Re:Perl Sux/R00Lz (1)

whiskeyjug (161665) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211735)

Oh, and while I'm at it, FSCK-ing STOP ALL OF THIS RELIGIOUS WAR CRAP! Whenever I hear all of these flame-heads saying, "Perl Sux, Python Rox!" "No, Python Sux, Perl Rox!" , it sounds like a bunch of morons in a garage going "Hammers Rule, Wrenchs Suck" "Phillips Screwdrivers Rule, Flathead Screwdrivers Suck." FACE IT. These are all TOOLS!
Yeah. One of the signs of an immature programmer, IMO, is an irrational attachment to one language or another. Languages are just tools ... (of course, I would like seeing templates in Java :)

Anybody know what's new? (1)

sgifford (9982) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211736)

Anybody know what's new in this release?

Re:Then we're agreed (2)

Anonymous Coed (8203) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211737)

For some reason, one particular way of doing things has become codified in pyton-land as the "right" way.

I think you're showing your lack of experience in actually working with Python. You seem to base this on the philosophy espoused by the Python.org tutorial, or from one of many articles written by blowhards that don't know anything about actually working Python. It's actually pretty flexible in terms of different approaches to solving problems, or design. There tends to be only one way to express each individual language feature, which to me is a good thing! It's easier for beginners (not "morons" as you call them) to learn, and IMHO doesn't hamper an advanced programmer at all, and does not restrict problem solving flexibility.

Python doesn't even have a goddam for statement.

for i in range(1, big_num):

print i * i

What are you missing?

Oh, and can python do anything like the -e 'code' functionality of perl, where you can do simple tasks without having to pull up a file editor?

$ python -c "import sys, string; print 'Python', string.split(sys.version)[0], 'is keen.'"

I admit that functionality similar to perl -pi would be cool. There's nothing fundamental about the language preventing you from doing that.

I don't need the crutch of whitespace indenting on every line to be able to read a program.

Maybe you don't need it, but why does the interpreter need semicolons to know where a statement ends? Isn't that a crutch? One would think the 'natural' behavior is that the end of a line ends a line of code. Maybe you've just been hacking Perl and C to long to see any other way.

Btw, can python do multi-threading?

Sure, but what's your point? It's actually pretty easy in Python.

Though maybe you're one of those companies who's trying to hire a lot of morons rather than a few skilled people. In that case by all means use python.

Hrm. You're being completely facecious here, though I'll take your statement at face value for a moment. Though there are fewer of them, most dedicated Python hackers I've talked to have been extremely intelligent, thoughtful developers who are interested in maximizing productivty and maintainability. I've also talked to a lot of equally bright Perl developers, but I've also seen a few who resemble the characiture of a bad Perl programmer who uses line-noise identifiers. These are the people who hear the word "object oriented" and weep. In their hands, Perl becomes a blunt object to be wielded as a weapon, whereas Python tries to guide developers away from the worst offences. These bad Perl programmers seem to far outnumber the equivilent in Python-land, but this could be a function of the size of the Perl community. Personally I think it also has something to do with Perl's philosophy and language features.

I guess my point is that knowing a particular language inside and out does not make one an all-around good developer.

Ultimately, language choice is a very personal thing to people, almost like religion in very real ways. Boosting Perl is fine, but it's kind of sad when you feel you have to diminish Python to do it.

Re:TROLLS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211738)

Am I the only person who thinks this is very anoying.

Yes you are. Since Slashdot started going downhill with all this SCI-FI crap and freshmeat-like BS, the ONLY THING WORTH READING is now the TROLLS.

They are providing a valuable service, (like memetic antibodies attempting to reject foreign bodies from a host, in this case lame non-linux related articles posted to Slashdot).

I suggest you take your lame comment and ram it up your ass sideways you clueless newbie, and next time USE A FUCKING SPELCHECKER MORON!!!!!!!!!

thank you

Re:Happened before, will happen again... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211739)

This "Perl 6.0" business is all well and good - but really, Topaz is the reason Microsoft paid ActiveState so much money - NT becomes a (barely) useable server system when you install Perl on it, so MS want their own dialect that performs optimally on their platform, and is compiled using their compiler. (As an aside - WE NEED A C++ ABI ON LINUX, LIKE THE C ABI)

If Topaz becomes the "official" Perl6, you can expect the GNU-licensed branch of Perl5 to continue development.

Re:Then we're agreed (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211740)

Be sure and tell that to your potential manager when you graduate and go to look for a job. Actually almost every place i've worked, getting code written fast and efficiently is more important than doing it 'correctly'. What's also not very surprising (to me at least) is that code developed in this fashion is actually easier to maintain because its SIMPLE too. Yessir -- arrogant hacks fresh from college who get hard-ons from writing unmaintainable line noise because it makes then feel smart Well the only arrogant hacks fresh from college ive met are ones who get hardons talking about object purity, and abstracting what should be 2 or 3 simple classes into something like 3 layers of countless abstractions and interfaces. Academically correct ? Perhaps. Rapid development ? Hell No. Easy for another developer to rapidly pick up ? No chance.

Re:Perl and Python wars (1)

Leto2 (113578) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211741)

You forgot the obvious.

Rewrite perl in perl.

Just like gcc.

Re:'PERL' does not exist (2)

happybob (3990) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211742)

I hate to say this, but it's sort of annoying.

PERL does not exist. This is a cruel hoax foisted off by stupid publishing companies that write crappy technical books.

The language is 'Perl'. The implementation is 'perl'. There is no 'PERL'.

Favorite language war (2)

slashdot-me (40891) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211743)

Now that the language wars are going to start...

What's you favorite quote from a language advocate?

My favorite was from Philip Greenspun. He's a professor of CS at MIT and runs the www.photo.net site. He was at my school giving a lecture on database backed web sites. Having heard of Zope and Python I asked him "what do you think of Python?" He gave me a blank look and said "better languages have been designed 30 years ago" (obviously lisp). This from a guy who writes his web stuff in tcl. ROTFL.

Ryan Salsbury

Where are the mirrors? - ftp.cdrom.com is dead! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211744)

The perl directory on ftp.cdrom.com is there but it has nothing in it. I can understand if they haven't gotten the latest copy yet, but why are all the old verisons gone as well? Also the linux directory the bsd directory the mozilla directory and many others are empty. Where is all this stuff going? If it is moving why wasn't there any notification to anyone?

Re:Then we're agreed (2)

HP LoveJet (8592) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211745)

You are under-informed.

Perl4 *was* a scripting language; perl5 is what you make of it. I choose to use it as a rapid development language with object orientation, efficient string handling, native interfaces to scores of useful system calls, process management and signal handling. In other words, just about everything I used to use C for in the application realm.

Is C still useful? Extremely. There are certain things it does do better. But don't sell perl short just because it's interpreted--any reasonable environment in which people use perl in real life--e.g., mod_perl--incurs the interpreter spin-up penalty very infrequently (ideally no more than once), and the language itself is extremely fast. Don't take my word for it; try benchmarking a set of programs that do the same complex regex match/subst in C and in perl. Guess who wins. Also, try writing a hashtable implementation in C (with arbitrary key data) that's anywhere close to as fast as perl associative arrays. Good luck.

Re:Damn Skippy! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211746)

4nd Z00t5 1ik3 j00 W1LL b3 7h4 ph1rzT 4ga1n57 th4 W4LL wh3n tH4 r3v0lu710N c0mE5!!!

Re:PERLy Pythons (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211747)

Previous poster had it right, though he's graciously apologetic (which is more than I can manage). Learn what's an acronym and what isn't, and quick, lest ye resemble an idiot.

Re:Yes! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211748)

Don't joke until you've seen the wondrous glory that is perlsh.

Re:What does Python have that Perl doesn't? (2)

HP LoveJet (8592) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211749)

I think the last time you checked was a long time ago.
use Error qw(:try);
use overload;

Re:Old news :-) (1)

Captain Teflon (15632) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211750)

Yes, I've been waiting for this.

the availability of fork() on Win32 ActivePerl will be a big step forward. I'll use it even more than I do now.

Re:Favorite language war (2)

HP LoveJet (8592) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211751)

My personal favorite (from a Bjarne Stroustrup interview years and years ago):

"There are two kinds of languages: the kind everybody bitches about, and the kind nobody uses."

Re:Favorite language war (1)

Chip Salzenberg (1124) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211752)

"C makes it easy for you to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes that harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg."
-- Bjarne Stroustrup

"Programmers are smart people. They are engaged in challenging tasks and need all the help they can get from a programming language as well as from other supporting tools and techniques. Trying to seriously constrain programmers to do "only what is right" is inherently wrongheaded and will fail. Programmers will find a way around rules and restrictions they find unacceptable. The language should support a range of reasonable design and programming styles rather than try to force people into adopting a single notion.

"I am well aware that not everyone appreciates choice and variety. However, people who prefer a more restrictive environment can impose one through style rules in C++ or choose a language designed to provide the programmer with a smaller set of alternatives."
-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Re:uh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211753)

I think "slashanonymouscoward.org" would be more appropriate.

Re:'PERL' does not exist (1)

RancidPickle (160946) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211754)

Thank you for the insite. I stand corrected, and I will try and purchase better technical books :)

Re:WTF are you talking about? (1)

crotherm (160925) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211755)

The best thing about python is Zope [zope.org] . It is quite an impressive Open Sourcetool. Even though I am a C/perl fan, I was forced to figure out some python/Zope stuff at work and found Zope quite usable. Unless I am out of touch, I have not heard of any perl equivelent.

But double-check the gotchas (2)

tilly (7530) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211756)

I believe that if you fork() then exec() you will have problems.

Why?

Because to get around limitations of Windows the fork() is emulated within a multi-threaded program by a new thread...

Cheers,
Ben

Opps you forgot one... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211757)

you suck !

Re:Favorite language war (1)

97jaz (33263) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211758)

When your hammer is C++, everything begins to look like a thumb.
-- Steve Hoflich on comp.lang.c++

As nasty and tasteless as Tcl is, it is a positive dream compared to Perl...Perl 5 does indeed offer 1000 times the syntactic complexity of Common Lisp, 10 times the semantic complexity of Common Lisp, and 1/10th the power of Fortran II.
-- Philip Greenspun

Greenspun's Tenth Rule of Programming: ``Any sufficiently-complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad-hoc, informally-specified bug-ridden slow implementation of half of Common Lisp.''

-jaz

Re:Then we're agreed (1)

slashdot-me (40891) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211759)

What's wrong with multithreading in an interpreted language? It's useful for all the same reasons it's useful in C. You seem confused...

Ryan

Re:Then Perl is perfect for you :-) (3)

Abigail-II (20195) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211760)

Yes, it even supports goto().

Actually, it has 3 forms of goto. Plain goto LABEL, computed goto (ala Fortran, IIRC), and deep voodoo magic goto, which can be very useful (in AUTOLOAD() for instance).

-- Abigail
perl-Mstrict-we'$_="gotoF.printchop;\n=rekca HlrePrehtonatsuJ";F1:eval'

Re:Favorite language war (1)

DrProton (79239) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211761)

The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense.
- E.W. Dijkstra

For more of Dijkstra's evaluations of programming languages (Fortran, BASIC, and PL/I) click
here. [uwaterloo.ca]

Re:What does Python have that Perl doesn't? (2)

Abigail-II (20195) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211762)

Does Perl have exceptions or try/finally blocks? How about operator overloading?

Perl has had die and eval for longer than Python exists. It might be not just as nice as Pythons - as you can only throw a string - but that's being worked on. Perl has had operator overloading for many years now.

I just happen to prefer Python.

How can you be sure? Clearly from your questions you don't know Perl, and it seems like "preference" is based on FUD.

There are a lot of things in Perl that could have been done better, and some things are really awkward. But when you hear Python zealots (who always pop up as soon as Perl is mentioned - I wonder why? Doesn't Python ever get mentioned?), 99 out of 100 times, they hardly know anything about Perl. That isn't going to win them any friends in the Perl community. In fact, it works against them. I often try to explain to Perl people that Python is a nice language as well, but the Python zealotry puts them off, and they don't want anything to do with Python. Unfortunally, there are a lot of Perl zealots as well.

-- Abigail

Perl obfuscated python function (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211763)

The following Python function will turn your Perl code in to UGLY obfuscated perl code! def obfuscate_perl(): print raw_input()

Re:Then we're agreed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211764)

dude, you brought it up saying "can the python people please be nice, let's be friends, come on guys", and now you are dumping on python and flaming people DEFENDING python FROM YOUR OWN ATTACKS!!! get a life!

Re:Then we're agreed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211765)


just read the rest of your post, and I must say, you are an arrogant fuck, and the more you run on, the more obvious it becomes to anyone reading. Other than yourself, I suppose.

Yours,

A slow-witted python programmer

moderate this down please. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211766)


This guy is a troll. Read the last line of
his post if you need evidence: he's obviously
just baiting people on.

Re:Perl Sux/R00Lz (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211767)

robertson (square head) screwdrivers are the
best. You americans need to be weaned off your
phillips.

give me more! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211768)


these are good.

haha.

Re:What does Python have that Perl doesn't? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211769)

I agree; he did a very eloquent job of it, too.

Re:What does Python have that Perl doesn't? (2)

elflord (9269) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211770)

I've used perl for a while and like it. I've also started dabbling with python and like that too. I don't really agree with any of the "standard" criticisms of perl or python.

Personally, I don't see what all the wars are about.

Re:Then we're agreed (1)

elflord (9269) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211771)

Also, try writing a hashtable implementation in C (with arbitrary key data) that's anywhere close to as fast as perl associative arrays. Good luck.

Using C++ / STL, it's probably doable. It's not the kind of thing I'd do myself in C, since someone's already done a better one.

Re:What does Python have that Perl doesn't? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211772)

How can you be sure? Clearly from your questions you don't know Perl, and it seems like "preference" is based on FUD.

Hmm, that's funny. So when one has an opinion that differs from your own, that's illegitimate? Can one simply not have a "preference"? How about the fact that perl's syntax is HAIRY, *much* hairier than python's, and you don't need to know heaps of stupid niggly things to write programs more than a few lines long. That's a legitimate gripe, if you deny it, you're full of shit. And it doesn't have much to do with operator overloading or exception handling. I mean, the hairiness of perl is a pretty good gripe, and you don't need to go into too much more detail than that to have a good reason, as an intelligent person who may just not even want to start up the learning curve, to stay away.

As has been said a thousand times by myself and others: I want to think about programs, not syntax, and being able to work that way in perl will take me too long, I admit, but even that's not the point. The point: I DON'T EVEN WANT TO DEAL WITH IT IN THE FIRST PLACE, regardless of how long it may or may not take, or how simple the syntax really is.

who always pop up as soon as Perl is mentioned

For the record, the first mention of both perl and python in a single comment for this article was a perl zealot (read his posts and you'll see what I mean), who then proceeded to flame python. Everything else has come after that.

- I wonder why? Doesn't Python ever get mentioned?

On slashdot? Not as often as perl...I can't really comment for elsewhere.

Unfortunally, there are a lot of Perl zealots as well.

Nice to hear this said.

Re:Opps you forgot one... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211773)

Not exactly. I don't suck. I lick. Your mom, usually.

Re:Then we're agreed (2)

elflord (9269) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211774)

I "use strict;" in all of my programs. Writing maintainable code and writing "good" code are two different things. Sometimes it makes code more maintainable to violate standard spacing practice (rarely, but I've seen it in most of the code that I've looked at).

Depends. In perl, maybe. I haven't seen any python programs that would benefit that much from substantial respacing. And losing those braces makes the code a hell of a lot more readable. Whitespace is not a crutch. It makes your code more readable even if it's already coherent. I write readable perl programs, but the same thing in python is usually more readable ( and I've written more perl than python )

Sometimes faster code is perfectly maintainable but not asthetically pleasing to a python programmer.

If you want faster code, you can always use C from python or vice versa. I don't get why you think python is "slow". One usually doesn't use python for speed-critical tasks. You write ( or rewrite ) the speed-critical stuff in C. Ditto for perl -- a lot of perl isn't terribly fast or efficient either ( which is why several of the modules are not pure perl )

[ nonsense snipped ]

A lot of these comments are outright wrong. There is a for statement. You can run python straight from the command line. If you bothered to learn about python ( rather than just prejudging it ), you would know this.

I use perl and python, and like both. I could see good arguments for using either depending on circumstances. For example, there's no way I'd do any serious GUI development in perl ( don't talk to me about perl-Tk. I've used it. One word: "spaghetti" ) However, I'd prefer perl for string manipulation. For this task, Python is functional, but doesn't "feel" as easy.

However, it seems that you're dismissing python on the basis of it's whitespace formatting alone. Well if you're too narrow minded to learn something new, that's your problem (-;

Re:Then we're agreed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211775)

uh, dude, perl was written in C. You could get a hashtable implementation in C that would be as fast if not faster than perl, just by duplicating the perl implementation (the relevant parts at least, you could cut it down quite a bit).

Of course, at that point, you have a significant part of an interpreted language runtime in your program, but it's quite possible.

Just because perl is optimized for such things doesn't mean it will always be faster than anything else.

That said, since perl is a, um, higher level language that C, you could conceivably make a compiler generate faster hashing and string manipulation code than you could ever get in C (sort of like some compilers generate better machine code than humans could). Be a hairy compiler, though.

Re:Favorite language war (1)

mill (1634) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211776)

``If one wants to learn good OO techniques, then it's best to avoid C++ altogether.'' - Dave Cook, on c.o.l.a

``I invented the term 'object oriented', and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind.'' - Alan Kay

``This, by the way, is a document telling you all of the features of C++ that you must not use if you want your code to run on all platforms commonly deployed today. When you print it out, it's a quarter inch thick. If that doesn't say to someone, "don't use C++", there's probably no hope of ever reasoning with them.'' - Jamie Zawinski

Personally I dislike Python and the Pascal family of languages far more than C++ - purely on based syntactical grounds. I am weird like that. I like elegant languages - like Scheme and Haskell. I use practical languages - like Perl, C and C++.

/mill

Re:Then we're agreed (1)

ochinko (19311) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211777)

I don't know anything about Python except that it uses whitespace for blocks. The funny thing is that I have to maintain two huge Perl scripts written by a guy who doesn't care at all about indentation. I am sure that if there's hell he'll be forced to write in some language like Python until the end of times in order to pay for his deeds. I would choose the self imposed discipline any day of the week but some people just need it fixed in the language otherwise they won't bother.

Re:WTF are you talking about? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211778)

You might want to try HTML::Mason (MasonHQ [masonhq.com] ) it hasn't got all of Zope's features, but it is less complex, and easier to learn (especially when you know Perl).

*sigh* (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211779)

What a waste of time. When I started reading these comments, I was hoping for a "What's new in perl5.6 thread?". Instead, I see a Perl/Python debate, and slashdot turning into freshmeat.
Programmers solve problems. The language that they use is simply a tool (or toolset). Good programmers generally know more than one language, and can make informed decisions about which to use for a certain project. The whole language debate is stupid, if you don't know both perl and python, then you shouldn't be commenting. If you do, then you can recognize the strengths and weaknesses of both, and use both for different things. (Note: when I say "know", I mean actually KNOW, not just oh-i-tried-language-XYZ-once-and-found-i-couldn't- do-the-same-stuff-that-i-could-in-my-fav orite-language-foo)
And as for slashdot announcing new version of perl, this is a news site, software releases are news to some of us. Plus, slashdot is written in perl, so of course the creators of the site are going to find a new release worthy of being posted.
Now, quit bickering and start talking about important stuff, like new features, bugfixes, and the plans for 6.0 (to be written in my favorite big-project language, c++). ;P

-dilinger

Re:What does Python have that Perl doesn't? (2)

Abigail-II (20195) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211780)

So when one has an opinion that differs from your own, that's illegitimate? Can one simply not have a "preference"?

Of course you can have a preference. Have all the preference you want. But let me quote the posting I was replying to for you:

Does Perl have exceptions or try/finally blocks? How about operator overloading? Personally, I don't care much if Perl has them or not - but last time I checked it didn't. So that's a couple things. Perl is nice. Python is nice. I just happen to prefer Python.

That shows the poster doesn't know much about Perl. So, yes, he's entitled to a preference, but said preference is not based on actual knowledge of the language. In fact, it seems to be based on common myths, also known as FUD.

How about the fact that perl's syntax is HAIRY, *much* hairier than python's, and you don't need to know heaps of stupid niggly things to write programs more than a few lines long. That's a legitimate gripe, if you deny it, you're full of shit.

That's of course utter bullshit. You don't need to know heaps of "niggly things" to write programs. Not at all. Don't let the richness of the language confuse you. You don't have to use it.

Programming Perl: 619 pages
Programming Python: 857 pages
Learning Perl: 256 pages
Learning Python: 356 pages

-- Abigail

Re:What does Python have that Perl doesn't? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211781)

Maybe the previous poster's example was bad.

My point:

The first impression of many people (depending of course on their taste) of perl is "ick". This is a legitimate reaction, and is all you need to really have a preference. Details like exception handling and operator overloading can be pretty much ignored, and if one doesn't know about them, that doesn't mean their preference, based on the much larger issue of the complication of the language itself, can be invalidated.

Ok, no niggly things (I still disagree). How about the syntax, then? Or were you refuting my assertion that it sucks, too? The syntax *is* clean? How about fine-grained semantic stuff like context-dependencies. Not hairy? BULLSHIT. Read the perl gotchas if you need admission of this by significant perl luminaries.

That's why I have a preference. If you say I've been corrupted, or that's really not ok, (or I'm just stupid because I "can't" learn the language, as some perl zealots are wont to do), you're no better than these python zealots you mention that are apparently spreading fud about perl.

In any case, why do I then feel that way? Have I been corrupted by FUD?

Re: book sizes.

Uh, I haven't read any of these books, but that's a stupid argument. "This just in! Perl less complicated than python because the books are smaller!" Comparing religions by the size of their bibles...give me a break.

This article is about perl (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211782)

Not python. Python zealots can go the FUCK away.

Re:Then we're agreed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1211783)

...you could conceivably make a compiler generate faster hashing and string manipulation code than you could ever get in C (sort of like some compilers generate better machine code than humans could). Be a hairy compiler, though.

Such a compiler exists. It's called "perl". (Perl does in fact compile all its source before running it, and does get better performance than human-generated C code on those sorts of stringy things.)

Hope this helps!

Re:What does Python have that Perl doesn't? (2)

Abigail-II (20195) | more than 14 years ago | (#1211784)

The first impression of many people (depending of course on their taste) of perl is "ick". This is a legitimate reaction, and is all you need to really have a preference.

The first reaction of many people to Python is: "whitespace is significant, ICK!", and they never look at the language again, claiming significant whitespace as the reason to hate Python. That's also a preference, but do you think that's justified? I don't.

How about fine-grained semantic stuff like context-dependencies. Not hairy?

Eh, no. Natural actually. Many natural languages are context sensitive. And since the majority of the programmers masters at least one natural language, I don't see what's so hairy about that.

I haven't read any of these books, but that's a stupid argument.

Really? If Python is so trivial, and Perl so hairy, then why are both the learning books and the reference books larger for Python, instead of being significant smaller?

Comparing religions by the size of their bibles

Guido and Larry are neither dieties, or prophets.

-- Abigail

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