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eBay's Plan to Force PayPal Rejected Down Under

CmdrTaco posted more than 5 years ago | from the monopoly-schmonopoly dept.

Businesses 181

Jm_aus writes "eBay's plan to force all users to use PayPal only has been rejected by Australia's competition regulator, the ACCC. This followed 650 submissions from eBay users as well as from Australian banks, other payment services, the Australian Reserve Bank, and (anonymously) Google, which aired a lot of dirty laundry about PayPal's unresponsiveness and failure to sign up to the local banking code of conduct. Apparently the public benefits from eBay's 'Bad Buyer Experience' elimination program are likely to be 'minimal.' There is a period for appeals."

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181 comments

elimination program? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23763529)

What's that ""Bad Buyer Experience" elimination program" ?

If you leave negative feedback, they send ninjas to kill you, thus imporving the "good experience" rate?

Re:elimination program? (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23763605)

Can this be countered by pirates?

Re:elimination program? (4, Interesting)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 5 years ago | (#23763677)

What's that ""Bad Buyer Experience" elimination program" ?


If my personal experience is any indication, it's the process whereby upon reporting being victimised by an eBay "power seller" eBay threatens to find you guilty of being a "bad buyer" and threatens to place sanctions on your eBay and Paypal accounts unless you pay up. The workaround I found was to change all my eBay user info to the crooked seller's email address and a fictitious physical address and I canceled my paypal account. :P

It probably helped that I did this within an hour of eBay finding in favor of the dishonest seller (item was a Chinese counterfeit and did not function properly, also they attempted to charge for two items when I only bought one item). This was about three months ago, I've not heard anything about the matter since. Obviously, eBay lost me as a customer.

Right, because PayPal's better... (5, Interesting)

autocracy (192714) | more than 5 years ago | (#23763535)

As a buyer, I really want to use my credit card directly. PayPal, last time I used it, only covered a $200 return or so. I went straight through to my credit card company (which is linked to my PayPal account) and did a chargeback through them. PayPal sent me a nastigram saying if you keep that up, we'll cut you off.

Yeah, thanks but no thanks EBay.

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23763593)

Your a dumbass for dealing with Paypal in the first place. Do you never research a company a bit and see if people are dissatisfied with them, and if so why, before doing business with them? If so you'd know that this is a common practice. Oh, and you'd do well not to ever keep any money in any of your accounts with them.

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (4, Interesting)

autocracy (192714) | more than 5 years ago | (#23763693)

I did my homework, and that's why they have my credit card on the back end (which, thankfully, can tell them to get stuffed). You're right about linking to any account that keeps cash on hand in it. PayPal also has a long history of locking cash in its customer accounts. Really, they're just terrible to everybody involved. I don't believe I've bought anything with my account since that time.

From a seller's point of view: The EBay style of charging the seller commission, then charging the seller a percentage of PayPal too kinda gets me. Sure, they're treating them like the separate company they used to be, but come on. I suppose you get what you get for having something less than a true credit card merchant account (which costs).

As an aside rant, I'm sad that nobody does a cash discount anymore. I'd happily pay you on a 2% reduction to save you the 3% or whatever my CC company charges. Well, really to save myself 2%, but you'd profit as a vendor!

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23763863)

The reason why you don't get cash discounts anymore is that it's against Visa/MC/AmEx merchant terms and conditions.

It's even disallowed to require the transaction to be over a certain value to accept payment via credit cards.

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (3, Informative)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764173)

Lots of places still do minimum limits, though. "Your transaction must be at least $3.00 to use a credit card here."

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (4, Interesting)

tlhIngan (30335) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764697)

Lots of places still do minimum limits, though. "Your transaction must be at least $3.00 to use a credit card here."


That's against the terms of the merchant agreement to require a lower limit.

What you might be thinking of is the similar "Minimum $3 charge if using credit card". Your quote implies that if you buy a $1 item, you can't pay by credit card. My quote says if you want to buy a $1 item, you will be charged $3 for it instead if you use a credit card.

It's a very subtle thing - it implies a cash discount (buy item for $1 via cash, or $3 via credit card), but it also isn't (if you buy 3 $1 items, it's $3).

What I want to know is if merchant accounts don't allow cash discounts, why don't they go after the tons of people who advertise prices, then say "price is after 3% cash discount"?

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (2, Insightful)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764981)

That's against the terms of the merchant agreement to require a lower limit.
I know. But up here at least, it still happens.

What you might be thinking of is the similar "Minimum $3 charge if using credit card". Your quote implies that if you buy a $1 item, you can't pay by credit card. My quote says if you want to buy a $1 item, you will be charged $3 for it instead if you use a credit card.
That would also be against the rules of the CC companies. And that's not what I'm talking about. I'm quite literally talking about a hand-lettered sign on the register saying "Your transaction must be at least $3.00 to use a credit card here, sorry for the inconvenience."

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (1)

NeoSkandranon (515696) | more than 5 years ago | (#23765931)

The places I've seen that do this have specific wording that calls it a "convenience" discount that applies to cash or debit cards only.

I'm not sure how that changes things but it never is called a cash discount, perhaps that's just how the agreements (or state laws perhaps, in this case, since I see it in south carolina but not north carolina) are written.

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (3, Interesting)

creepynut (933825) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764815)

Merchants are not allowed to set minimum or maximum amounts for transactions on Visa. I'm too lazy to find it, but I know Mastercard has a similar rule.

In response to the Anonymous Coward, they are allowed to give cash discounts, but it has to be clearly stated to the customer before hand. A couple of the local computer stores here do this, but they have labels all over the store saying "All prices are 2% cash or debit discounted"

Source:
For the US (I'm in Canada, but I can't find the doc on visa.ca). See Page 9/10:
http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/card_acceptance_guide.pdf [visa.com]

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (2, Informative)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764957)

Merchants are not allowed to set minimum or maximum amounts for transactions on Visa. I'm too lazy to find it, but I know Mastercard has a similar rule.
Right, but that doesn't mean that they don't do it. Here in Maine, I would say that more stores have minimums than don't.

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (2, Interesting)

creepynut (933825) | more than 5 years ago | (#23765197)

Report them to your bank/card issuer! Nobody will stop doing it if we let them get away with it.

I was once told I couldn't use my credit card for a small transaction (there was no posted minimum either). I wasn't sure at the time about these things so I didn't put up a fuss and paid cash. I checked into it, once I learned that they were violating the merchant rules I filed a complaint with my bank (the card issuer).

I received a reply a few days later that Visa was looking into it. Strangely enough, I haven't had any issues using my card there since.

RBC Royal Bank has a web based form [rbcroyalbank.com] to send them your thoughts. I'm sure other banks have similar contact forms, but even if they don't, pick up the phone and complain. They (the merchants) are the ones breaking the rules, why should we let them get away with it?

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (2, Informative)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 5 years ago | (#23765329)

Report them to your bank/card issuer! Nobody will stop doing it if we let them get away with it.
Why? I don't use credit cards there, and I understand why they do it--below $3.00, they lose money on the transaction.

It's a bad rule that shouldn't exist, IMO, and serves only to force business owners to make a tradeoff: take a loss or have a sign there that gets a customer to buy a pack of gum?

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (2, Insightful)

NeoSkandranon (515696) | more than 5 years ago | (#23766047)

As I've said in other posts: They knew the rules of the game before signing with a CC clearinghouse.

If they feel they can't profit on taking a CC transaction below a certain amount, they should either: Find a processing provider with better rates, not take CCs at all, or raise their prices such that larger purchases offset some of the cost.

Their profit margins aren't my concern, and it's silly to be expected to carry cash to make small purchases.

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (2, Insightful)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 5 years ago | (#23768031)

I get the feeling that you've never lived in a rural area. The situation is considerably more complex than you assume.

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (2, Insightful)

Lershac (240419) | more than 5 years ago | (#23768159)

And you do not own a business obviously. THERE ARE NO BETTER TERMS. Everybody has that clause. You want the business owner to take it up the ass so you dont have to carry around a few dollars? You want the business owner to lose money on the transactions that are less than $3 or whatever arbitrary amount they set? Get in touch with reality, I am in business to make money, and if I am not going to make money doing business with you, YOU can go do business somewhere else. The minimums in the CC acceptance contracts are there for the CC company benefit, so THEY make money on every transaction. NO SLIDING SCALE, they make some base fee plus a percentage on EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION. How are you upset with the small business owner for protecting his profits and not with the CC clearinghouse for doing WORSE? get called a hypocrite much?

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (1)

ryanhull (883289) | more than 5 years ago | (#23765479)

Report them to your credit card company if they forced a minimum. Do it now, not after a nap!

Usually a phone-call to the number on the back of the card to the issuing bank is enough to get the Hand 'o' Doom moving.

And just for everyone else, if you see those signs, ($x.xx minimum for CC purchases.) That's illegal, and against the merchant agreement. Report them!

I had a merchant charge me 5% for a purchase I made, (>$1000) and I accepted it, called Discover when I got home, and they did a chargeback immediately.

Works everytime. Just report them, and you get your money back, and they get a nasty-gram letting them know that their shoddy business practices aren't winning them too many friends...

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (1)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 5 years ago | (#23765919)

I'd hardly say your solution was ethical, either. "Hey, I'll accept this purchase/charge, knowing full well I intend to charge back the transaction as soon as I get home."

How CC and Merchant accounts really work.... (2, Informative)

ryanhull (883289) | more than 5 years ago | (#23765217)

Offering a Cash discount (Discount for Cash) is not against ANY CC company or processor agreement. What is NOT allowed is charging a fee for a CC transaction, and / or a minimum / maximum limit of the transaction. Any retailer has the right to offer a discount for cash. What they can't do is list their prices in any advertisement, publication, etc without stipulating that the price shown is for cash. If it's not on the advert, then they can't charge more for a CC transaction. Furthermore, a lot of retailers DO offer a discount for cash. Usually a pittance, 1-3%, but nonetheless a discount. Also, people need to know how to use their check-card at retailers as well, so that they don't get hit with transaction fees from their bank or the retailers processing agent. If anyone has a check-card / cash-card, etc. that is labeled as MC or VISA, and is tied to a checking account, etc., make sure you choose CREDIT, and not debit as the payment method. If you choose debit, and type in your PIN, you get charges, not the retailer. YMMV. I've done POS work and have dealt with several of these terms and conditions. You'd be surprised how quickly a merchant gets rid of those minimums or fees when you complain to the CC company about their deceptive practices. When they do this sort of backhanded crap, and get reported enough times, the merchant and/or CC company will pull their merchant account, and/or fine them for violating the terms of the agreement they have in place. Works for MC, VISA, DISC. Not sure about AMEX, et al. Just an FYI.

Re:How CC and Merchant accounts really work.... (-1, Offtopic)

ryanhull (883289) | more than 5 years ago | (#23765321)

Sorry for the poor formatting. My first time posting to /.

Still need to figure out how to add spaces and make paragraphs.

bleh.

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (1)

vicferarri (1234338) | more than 5 years ago | (#23767721)

The reason why you don't get cash discounts anymore is that it's against Visa/MC/AmEx merchant terms and conditions.
You're mistaken. From Visa's Card Acceptance and Chargeback Guidelines [visa.com] :

Always treat Visa transactions like any other transaction; that is, you may not impose any surcharge on a Visa transaction. You may, however, offer a discount for cash transactions, provided that the offer is clearly disclosed to customers and the cash price is presented as a discount from the standard price charged for all other forms of payment.
"Discount" okay, "surcharge" not okay. It's all in the wording.

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (5, Insightful)

travdaddy (527149) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764069)

Nobody does a cash discount anymore because it's against eBay policy. eBay is all about making the seller unable to get around eBay's exorbitant fees in any way possible. That is their entire basis for forcing PayPal.

To give an example of their total fee structure: after selling a small item for $30, you're only going to see around $24.50 for it after fees, and then you still have to pay to ship it.

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (2, Insightful)

Alwin Henseler (640539) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764867)

eBay is all about making the seller unable to get around eBay's exorbitant fees in any way possible. That is their entire basis for forcing PayPal.
eBay takes a fee on items sold. This fee is based on what the item sells for, not what it costs to ship it (buyer pays that).

Ofcourse if you pay through PayPal, PayPal will also take a fee, this time depending on the total amount (item price + shipping).

With eBay & PayPal being 2 hands on one belly, making PayPal compulsory is something I read as an attempt to double the standard eBay fees, and grab a bit of the shipping costs as well.

Not that I care much. Read carefully what you sign up for if you sell items through eBay. Read even better what you sign up for when you open a PayPal account. Use both for what they're good for, not for everything. PayPal is just a payment option. I'd quickly drop eBay if that was not the case.

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23764979)

That is very exaggerated, even with the extra 50 cents or so it is for international payments. I received a payment of $38.00 a few days ago and the fee was only $1.78, not $5.50+ :S It's still kind of high, but not that high.

Paypal is nice for allowing sellers to allow credit cards and offer a convenience to their customers for a minimal amount and without getting a merchant account.

According to https://www.paypal.com/row/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_display-receiving-fees-outside for payments under $3,000 the fee is 2.9% + $0.30

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (3, Interesting)

MoonBuggy (611105) | more than 5 years ago | (#23765177)

The post mentioned total fee structure, not just the PayPal fees. On your $38 auction you would be paying at least another $2.74 in eBay fees, and that's just going on the bare minimum amounts.

There's also the fact that there are services equivalent to PayPal that charge 1.5%+$0.30, so its service simply can't compete on value. That's precisely why eBay are now choosing to force sellers to offer it - in order to prevent them from using more economical options.

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (3, Informative)

MoonBuggy (611105) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764933)

PayPal does indeed suck for sellers as well as buyers.

Really I don't object to them charging a percentage on transactions - it's still cheaper than a full merchant account. What I very much do object to is them charging twice what Google Checkout does for an equivalent transaction. What I object to even more is being forced as a seller to use PayPal - incidentally does anyone know who in the UK I should make a complaint about this to? It reeks of anticompetitive behaviour, as the Australians have realised.

eBay actually has Google Checkout listed as 'Not permitted' on their Accepted Payments [ebay.co.uk] page, and anyone who has ever tried to email eBay's support team to question this will know how hard it is to get an answer (they normally just spout irrelevant canned responses until you give up) but I did finally get an email from eBay explaining that I am allowed to use it but that I must offer it alongside PayPal and outside of the eBay checkout process.

I won't even go into PayPal's dubious dispute processes and lack of safeguards - they are well documented elsewhere, but again the argument of "don't use them" is rendered moot by eBay's policies.

You're in luck mate! (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23763669)

As a buyer, I really want to use my credit card directly.

Just fill out the form at gday.ebay.mate/safecredit.asp and we'll get you started faster than a kangaroo can steal your vegemite sandwich.

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23764241)

Similar experience. I bought a $600 laptop that never shipped. Paypal used the $10 balance in my account and covered the rest through a credit card. Paypal gave back $200, but the credit card returned all $590. Of course when Paypal processed that (fair enough), they took back all $200, so Paypal shorted me $10. I emailed a half dozen times explaining how they owe me $10 but all I got were patronizing explanations back. They're the only ones with contact with the original (con artist) seller, but it's just not worth $600 to them, I guess. If eBay forces us to use PayPal, that'll make me mad, but at least you can still use a credit card through PayPal and get your card's protection.

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23764389)

Ebay/Paypal screwed up an auction that I did a "buy it now" on. My paypal account was billed, but the auction did-not-close. In other words it continued, and I was not shown as the winner. I called ebay, they said it was paypal's fault. I called ebay, they said it was ebay's fault. Since it was out of my paypal balance, I had no recourse except to beg the seller to honor the sale. I of course had no feedback leverage or anything at all, since the auction was still shown as running. Had I paid this with a credit card, I would have made a phone call to my bank, with which I have a nice relationship with, and they would have given me my money back.

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23765107)

Paypal is fine, provided you always fund by credit card and never keep a balance in your PP account. Remove all money immediately.

Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (5, Informative)

AmiMoJo (196126) | more than 5 years ago | (#23766119)

Unfortunately in the UK banks are no longer required to help you out or issue chargebacks in cases involving PayPal. The reason is that the banking code only requires them to do anything when you have a dispute with the person you had a transaction with, which in this case is PayPal. You send the money to PayPal, and then in a separate transaction they send it to the seller. So, if you problem is with the seller, they don't have to help.

I started a petition to get the law changed: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/3partyccs/ [pm.gov.uk]

Can somebody explain? (4, Interesting)

muellerr1 (868578) | more than 5 years ago | (#23763597)

In most countries, why is PayPal allowed to act like a bank without being regulated like a bank? I've never understood how they get away with that.

Re:Can somebody explain? (5, Funny)

PoliTech (998983) | more than 5 years ago | (#23763675)

For the same reason that Ebay acts like a fencing operation for stolen goods, but is never charged as such.

Re:Can somebody explain? (4, Informative)

arivanov (12034) | more than 5 years ago | (#23763971)

1. It is more counterfeit than stolen.

2. The french have actually charged eBay with both on a number of occasions.

Re:Can somebody explain? (3, Insightful)

Paranatural (661514) | more than 5 years ago | (#23763701)

I think it's because PayPal is fairly undefined. It does seem like it's a bank and so people unthinkingly treat it as if it is one, but of course it has no actual bank foundation. And, of course, they have no imperative to become a bank, because then they'd have to follow the rules.

I'm just hoping that all countries everywhere enact similar rulings. Paypal gets on my damn nerves.

Re:Can somebody explain? (2, Interesting)

LordKaT (619540) | more than 5 years ago | (#23763715)

Because they've settled out of court for large sums of cash before things ever went to trial.

eBay has done its homework on PayPal and knows it cannot turn nearly as huge of a profit as it does if PayPal has to comply with all of the banking regulations.

Re:Can somebody explain? (2, Informative)

mpapet (761907) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764237)

At best, they would argue they are a payment processor. A Bank does many other types of cash and lending operations.

FYI: You can start your own payment processing service like any business. Where you are going to get screwed, is when you need to connect to banks for electronic funds transfers. ACH rates are low, but getting into the network is not cheap or easy.

Payment processing is one of the monopolies absolutely no one cares about despite the broad harm to consumers. F*i*r*s*t D,a,t,a and V^i^s^a.

Re:Can somebody explain? (4, Informative)

Z34107 (925136) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764279)

Because PayPal is not a bank. It doesn't offer loans, it doesn't pay interest, it doesn't have a required holdings (no loans = 100% cash on hand), etc, etc.

PayPal is as much of a bank as Chuck E. Cheese is a bank for handing out those game tokens and tickets. It's just a convenient way for you to give money to eBay before you spend it on an actual good (the appeal of which I have yet to understand.)

Re:Can somebody explain? (2, Informative)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 5 years ago | (#23766153)

PayPal doesn't just do payment processing. When you create an account with them (which you need to do in order to pay someone), you put money into this account and then transfer it to the seller's account. You can either do this in one step, or put the money in the account first and leave it there for a while. The seller can then keep the money in their account or transfer it elsewhere. If they leave the money in there (or if you put money in your account and leave it there for a while without sending it to someone), then PayPal do pay interest.

They give you an account, into which you can put money. They look after money for you and pay interest on it. Sounds a lot like a bank to me...

Re:Can somebody explain? (1)

Z34107 (925136) | more than 5 years ago | (#23766361)

Interesting - I wasn't aware that they do offer interest on deposits, which puts them more towards bank status.

However, storing money in an account is just delayed payment processing. And, they're not FDIC insured. They also don't offer any "bank" services, other than giving the money to another PayPal account.

If you could withdraw money again, I'm guessing it would also be a different situation. And, they still have to comply with Regulation E whether they're a bank or not.

So, to further obfuscate my metaphor, your PayPal balance is Chuck E. Cheese tickets. But, they'll give you more tickets as you hold a balance.

Re:Can somebody explain? (1)

j00r0m4nc3r (959816) | more than 5 years ago | (#23767113)

I could be mistaken, but I remember them getting in trouble a while back when it was discovered that they were taking that money sitting in all the accounts and investing it in other places, just like a bank.

Re:Can somebody explain? (1)

Kashra (1109287) | more than 5 years ago | (#23767329)

Last I used paypal, and this was a long time ago, I remember earning interest on the money that was in my paypal account.

Re:Can somebody explain? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23767469)

Paypal Does pay interest.
They have for years.
Look into their money market accounts.

Re:Can somebody explain? (2, Informative)

InvisblePinkUnicorn (1126837) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764725)

The real question to ask is how the government can get away with forcing any person or company (bank or otherwise) to do with their property other than they wish.

Re:Can somebody explain? (1)

CodeBuster (516420) | more than 5 years ago | (#23765393)

The short answer is because the government has the guns. It is important to remember that all powers of any government are backed up by the implicit (or sometimes explicit) threat of overwhelming violence against those who do not submit (rarely physical, although it does sometimes come to that). Those who advocate more taxes, more government, and more regulation would do well to remember that.

Re:Can somebody explain? (1)

bitrex (859228) | more than 5 years ago | (#23766497)

One of the principles of the social contract that one becomes a part of in a theoretically democratic society is that one concedes the monopoly on force to the government. The principle advantage of this in a properly functioning democratic society is that while the government has the sole right to use violence (both against its own citizens who do not obey the rule of law and against external threats), its citizens also have the power to exercise their will as to exactly how that power is used. Your argument cuts both ways, one could as easily say that one who advocates less government are risking the overwhelming violence of the Hobbesian "war of all against all"; in other words the overwhelming violence of anarchy and mob rule where the strong dominate the weak 100% of the time. It's a delicate balancing act - I don't believe putting one's foot down and saying "More government, good!" or "More government, bad!" accurately reflects the complexities of maintaining a stable society.

Re:Can somebody explain? (2, Insightful)

InvisblePinkUnicorn (1126837) | more than 5 years ago | (#23766771)

"One of the principles of the social contract that one becomes a part of in a theoretically democratic society..."

When did I sign this contract? When I was born? Am I agreeing to this contract every second (since birth) that I do not quit my job, take all of my property on a plane, and spend my life savings moving to another country? Is that how the contract works in a "democratic society"? If so, where is this explanation written down, and how does it justify the violation of everyone's natural rights as rational beings?

"Your argument cuts both ways, one could as easily say that one who advocates less government are risking the overwhelming violence of ... anarchy...

I am not advocating no government or even less government. I am advocating that the government only function according to its original intended purpose - to uphold the rights of the citizenry; this is done through the use of force, when necessary, by the courts and the military/police. Whether such a move results in more or less government is of no concern. What the government has become instead is a rights-violating machine.

Re:Can somebody explain? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23765015)

But they are a bank, they hold a banking licence in Luxembourg

Re:Can somebody explain? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23765397)

Banks create money, PayPal doesn't.

Re:Can somebody explain? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23765803)

For the same reason the church of scientology is allowed to act like a religion without being a religion. This mutual above-the-lawness is also why Paypal let the SoC be a partner member in VERO ;)

And furthermore... (4, Funny)

Barny (103770) | more than 5 years ago | (#23763649)

... we would like to add, on behalf of the Australians who you are trying to blatantly extort:

*ahem*

"Like fuck you will"

That was an extract from the actual brief, word for word, honest :P

Re:And furthermore... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23764499)

... we would like to add, on behalf of the Australians who you are trying to blatantly extort:

*ahem*

"Like fuck you will"

That was an extract from the actual brief, word for word, honest :P
You mean translated from "G'day mate"?

Re:And furthermore... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23767767)

"Like fuck you will"
What does Will have to do with it?

Paypal sucks blah blah (3, Interesting)

Slimee (1246598) | more than 5 years ago | (#23763697)

I can't stand paypal. I've had an account since the earlier days before there really were options, though I so rarely use it because without PAYING for an account, I can only transfer money through a direct bank transfer. On EVERY ONE of my ebay listings I have to add a footnote alerting people that they can't pay with a credit card through paypal because paypal won't allow me to do that...

And the only way to be able to do that is to sign up for an account where they take a percentage of all of my transactions.

How does that commercial go? "It's my money and I want it now!"
But seriously, I'm tired of paypal, I just wish it would go the way of the dinosaurs because it's such a frustrating site to use to transfer funds.

Re:Paypal sucks blah blah (2, Informative)

aonaran (15651) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764293)

Where do you think you can get a service that allows you to accept CC payments without paying them a transaction fee?

Merchant Visa/MC accounts with your bank will charge fees too. How do you think they make their money?

Re:Paypal sucks blah blah (2, Informative)

Slimee (1246598) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764437)

Yeah but the thing is, with an account where I can't accept these transactions, people are still ABLE to attempt them.

It's very frustrating to cancel a transaction, send an email to the person telling them I can't accept it and to send me the money through their checking account instead. It's a process that shouldn't have to happen. If I don't have the business premier account or whatever it's called, then people shouldn't be able to initiate a credit card transaction.

Re:Paypal sucks blah blah (1)

PawNtheSandman (1238854) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764955)

Technically, if you click the PayPal payment accepted part of the eBay auction, you HAVE to accept all forms of payment including Credit Cards. You are basically forced to upgrade your PayPal account in order to accept the CC funds, and in turn get hammered on all payments you receive in the future. That is how they got after all the people like you who had specific PayPal acceptance rules, which robbed them of their precious double dipping of fees. eBay and PayPal can go eat a dick. I will still use Craigslist until eBay (which now owns CL), somehow forces people to use PayPal for person to person transactions.

Re:Paypal sucks blah blah (3, Interesting)

Slimee (1246598) | more than 5 years ago | (#23765023)

Yeah, I've been using Craigslist more and more for things I want, and I find everything goes a bit more smoothly when there's no hidden fees and surcharges for every move you make. Ugh don't even get me started on fees....$40 to list a car on ebaymotors? BS

Re:Paypal sucks blah blah (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23767647)

18%+ interest rates?

Inbound yeah, but not outbound... (2, Interesting)

Penguinisto (415985) | more than 5 years ago | (#23763763)

I use Paypal to receive money with (it is hella convenient for some folks I do work for on the side to pay me that way).



OTOH, the down side is that they extract fees that would make a bank or credit union blush for every transaction. Also, someone governmental needs to take a serious look at forcing them to be regulated and to follow the same rules as a real bank.

/P

Re:Inbound yeah, but not outbound... (2)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 5 years ago | (#23766539)

I bet it's "hella convenient" to you, too, undocumented income on the side that the tax man knows nothing about, and isn't linked to you by anything more than an email address, if you want.

Don't bother (3, Interesting)

sihker (913320) | more than 5 years ago | (#23763779)

In PayPals opinion I still live with polar bears, barbarians and blood feud. In post Soviet Russia, paypal uses one way money transfers only. Once you transferred money to paypal account, you can only spend it, no transferring back :D I for once welcome our money grabbing overlords :-D

Don't get me wrong, I love PayPal (3, Interesting)

multi-flavor-geek (586005) | more than 5 years ago | (#23763821)

I have had a PayPal account since they had that send money with no fees promotion that my now ex-wife and her friend used to rack up a couple of thousand frequent flyer miles on each others WorldPerks cards. I generally trust PayPal and I like the money market feature on my account, but it is not the only way to pay and it should not be set up that way. The world needs competition and it is going to hurt a lot of people who may just want to buy or sell one thing and don't want to set up an account for that one hassle to go through. For some things PayPal is perfect, but not for everything. On websites where you have an actually established revenue stream and are not just selling one or two things a day I think it looks bad if you are running PayPal only. I recently backed out of a deal to buy a stack of sub woofers from a company because I didn't want to deal with the creation of a PayPal account on the business card for one transaction. They lost out on a big sale, just because they were stuck with PayPal and PayPal only and I know that I am not the only one who responds to things this way.

Amazon accepts CC (1)

computechnica (171054) | more than 5 years ago | (#23763899)

Amazon has been great for buying and selling college books on. I have basically just been paying for shipping. When I need to add money Amazon can charge my Debit card, otherwise the money from selling books goes to buying the next set.
Other items can also be added. There is currently two Commodore 64 systems for sale for $235. Need a PalmOne m100 Handheld 9 Used & new from $11.89.

What about those of us who SUED PAYPAL and WON (5, Informative)

RaigetheFury (1000827) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764135)

I was part of the massive lawsuit against Paypal back when there were plenty of scammers. One such tried to screw me and even though I provide more than enough evidence to PROVE without a shadow of a doubt this guy was scamming the system, committing mail fraud, AND on top of that was using stolen credit cards, AND i gave him his confirmed address...

They still sided with him. However, I knew this was a possibility and I moved the money out of paypal, and blocked them from charging me back through my bank who happily sided with me.

About 6 months later I joined the lawsuit, and provided all of the evidence to them for exhibits. If you didn't know we won... and won big. Not happy with the default settlement offering I filed for the full settlement and received my check a few months later. I framed it... and I will NEVER do business with Paypal again.

I don't care if Ebay bought them. They do not follow banking guidelines, they consistently have proven themselves untrustworthy and generally don't abide by the law OR their own policies.

If Ebay goes to Paypal only, I think they'll soon realize the size of the mistake they will make when other auction sites blow past them at 90mph!

Birds of a feather.... (2, Informative)

Chas (5144) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764255)

Sorry, but EBay is just as shady as PayPal is.

I refuse to EVER give any more money to PayPal or EBay again.

Re:What about those of us who SUED PAYPAL and WON (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23765525)

they'll soon realize the size of the mistake they will make when other auction sites blow past them
What other auction sites are there? I know of a few, but they all suck. They will have a hard time beating eBay who has television adverts. The other problem is most of the other auction sites are as much of a rip-off as eBay, both in the fees they charge and the stuff listed on them. Most of the other auction sites have junk that goes for above retail.... just like eBay.

Re:What about those of us who SUED PAYPAL and WON (1)

prelelat (201821) | more than 5 years ago | (#23766715)

craigslist is huge I don't know about other places but up here in canada there is kijiji which is basically a rip off of craigslist but still you can find tons of stuff on these types of sites, without having to deal with paypal.

The part I like the best about a site like that is that you can view the item before buying it. Most of the time you meet up and pick up so can see the item and run away if you want. Cuts down on counterfits and scams. Typically you can't use credit cards but seriously it's where it's at.

Re:What about those of us who SUED PAYPAL and WON (1)

corbettw (214229) | more than 5 years ago | (#23767547)

craigslist is huge
I'll use Craig's List for some stuff, but until they allow you to search all of the for sale posts, and not just the ones within a given metro area, they'll never be able to compete with eBay.

And since eBay owns 33% of CL, that ain't ever going to happen.

Ebay is Dead to Me, Paypal is Evil (3, Insightful)

Colonel Korn (1258968) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764219)

I sort of enjoyed bidding for things on eBay back when it was new and there were deals to be had, but now nearly everything is at a fixed price and the only purpose it has for someone like me is to buy/sell used computer parts, which I can do elsewhere without the risk or hassle. I feel like the new eBay is mostly for soccer moms who don't know of alternatives, or for people who have very specialized interests with no other options (usually there are other, cheaper, safer options).

On the other hand, I never liked Paypal. As far as I could tell its sole purpose was to make it easier for sellers to scam buyers, since the only protection given to buyers is something on the order of $100. I know some people who bought Apple laptops on eBay, never received them, but were unable to get all of their ~$2000 back. If it happened to me, I'd do what another poster said today and stop the payment to Paypal from my credit card, but if it were me I wouldn't have made the purchase in the first place.

Re:Ebay is Dead to Me, Paypal is Evil (1)

Ogi_UnixNut (916982) | more than 5 years ago | (#23765259)

is to buy/sell used computer parts, which I can do elsewhere without the risk or hassle.
You wouldn't happen to know of a site where I can do that from the UK? In the last two months I have bought almost $200 worth of used computer parts off Ebay, none of them have worked as described and getting refunds and returns are proving such a massive headache that I'm thinking of giving up and swallowing the losses. Needless to say, I have come to hate doing any business on Ebay/Paypal, and would love to have an alternative.

Re:Ebay is Dead to Me, Paypal is Evil (1)

Collective 0-0009 (1294662) | more than 5 years ago | (#23765667)

I feel like the new eBay is mostly for soccer moms who don't know of alternatives, or for people who have very specialized interests with no other options (usually there are other, cheaper, safer options).
Like what? Yahoo Shopping... that sucks. Ubid sucks. Craigslist is awesome, but only local and usually much less selection (I doubt I will find 100 Precision Workstations on there anytime soon). So really, what are these options you speak of?

Verfied Accounts (4, Interesting)

drxenos (573895) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764359)

I found out the hard way that when you "verify" your account, the bank account used to verify your PayPal account becomes the primary account. All payments you make through PayPal come out of it by default. I called them because all my purchases were coming out of my bank account and not my credit card. They said the bank account has to be the primary, and the only way to change it was to revert to "unverified," which I did. I like the protection I get from using a credit card. Payments extracted from a checking account has no where near the same protection.

Re:Verfied Accounts (0)

PawNtheSandman (1238854) | more than 5 years ago | (#23765049)

This is false. Yes by default your bank account is primary, but before every transaction you send money, you can change it to send from credit card instead of bank account. I have done this for years without issue.

I have a separate, dedicated bank account set up with a minimum balance for use only with PayPal incase I get frozen/scammed, etc.

All purchases through PP can be made with a credit card although you have to click a few more boxes/pages in the checkout process.

Re:Verfied Accounts (1)

drxenos (573895) | more than 5 years ago | (#23765311)

Read what I said! I said it was the mandatory DEFAULT, not the only option. I don't want to have to remember to change it every time I made a payment. Show me where any part of my post was false.

Re:Verfied Accounts (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23765369)

Are you an ass or just illiterate? The OP said it used his/her bank account by default. He (or she) didn't say you couldn't change it at purchase time, just that you couldn't make it permanent. Yeah, "click a few more boxes/page." ON EVERY PURCHASE. No thanks, moron.

Re:Verfied Accounts (1)

PawNtheSandman (1238854) | more than 5 years ago | (#23765633)

I have the number for the Whaaambulance if you need it. Big deal, you have to click a a link, a radio button, and a confirm box. Stop bitching because your too lazy to click the mouse 3 more times.

Re:Verfied Accounts (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23765691)

I'm not lazy. You're just mad because you're illiterate and wrong. Great word, by the way. What, are you twelve?

Paypal sucks (2, Funny)

phoneteller (1261402) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764543)

I got conned by a seller on ebay, I paid $90 something and the seller vanished. Paypal (owned by ebay) refused to even investigate this. They asked me to wait for 21 days, and then they wanted me to email them a complaint. They did nothing. Way to go Aussie mates, you struck them in their balls.

suddenoutbreakofpithytags (0, Offtopic)

qualidafial (967876) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764549)

Jack Thompson sodomizes a kitten every time a story is tagged "suddenoutbreakofcommonsense."

Please tag responsibly.

Paypal tried to steal $1200 from my wife (5, Informative)

shadowofwind (1209890) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764641)

Paypal claimed the seller had the money, and told the seller we (the buyer) had the money, and lied and stonewalled for months. Finally they just gave the money back without explanation after a state Attourney General inquired on our behalf.

The previous time I posted this on /., I was modded down as a liar. But unbelievable as the stody is, it is the truth.

In fairness to Paypal, our experience was shortly after it was purchased by EBay, so probably EBay cleaned it up some since then.

Re:Paypal tried to steal $1200 from my wife (1)

drxenos (573895) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764715)

I don't think you are lying. PayPal wouldn't give me my money back when a seller screwed me over until I threatened to just call my credit card company and do a charge-back.

Re:Paypal tried to steal $1200 from my wife (2, Interesting)

anomaly256 (1243020) | more than 5 years ago | (#23765971)

A mate of mine got scammed once. Bought a game console, seller claimed it was AU and came with 2 games, turned out to be a Jap one with no games. I did some digging, contacted the other buyers this seller had dealt with, and they all claimed exactly the same thing happened to them. I contacted ebay through my friend's account, they investigated and found the seller to be fraudulent and locked his account. However, the seller was long gone by that stage. The mobile # he was passing around was no longer valid. Ebay refused to hand over any information regarding this person who's contact details turned out to be bogus, and paypal refused to hand over the banking information they had provided. Even after acknowledging he was a scammer. Legal proceedings to subpoena this information are in progress. Ebay/Paypal, if you're reading this: Stop protecting these people when you KNOW they commit the crime of fraud. It's only hurting you.

Re:Paypal tried to steal $1200 from my wife (1)

anomaly256 (1243020) | more than 5 years ago | (#23766025)

Oh yes, and in case it wasn't already obvious, I'm glad you didn't get your way. Your system only serves to hurt people.

Is this issue PayPal or Ebay? (2, Informative)

awjr (1248008) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764675)

From what I'm reading above, there is a major issue with dodgy sellers on Ebay. Paypal are just handling the payment and offer better safeguards than a transfer to a bank account. TFA is focusing on the fact it would cause a monopoly situation and the ACCC wants competition in the market.

What actually needs to happen is the ability to have a "one click" report item as dodgy. Ebay gains too much from providing a lax vetting process to ever get serious about it.

When governments actually get serious about this and start arresting Ebay executives and putting them in prison rather than fining them pathetically small amounts is when we will see them doing something about it.(http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080604/bs_afp/franceluxurypiracytrialusebay))

Never been burnt, yet *knock on Woody Allen* (3, Interesting)

macdaddy (38372) | more than 5 years ago | (#23764783)

I've been using Paypal since the very beginning. I've been using eBay and Yahoo Auctions since they were first established. I was thinking about how much $$$ I've spent on auction items over the years back when I last did my taxes. My purchases peaked in 2002 with just over $16k in purchase. In total I have bought nearly $100k of crap off of them both over the last decade. Amazingly enough I have never been burnt. All of my eBay purchases used PayPal I'm sorry to say. The only time I ever had a problem I simply did a chargeback with my CC. PP got pissed and threatened me; when I said I was going to do a chargeback they transferred me internally to a guy who did the threatening. He was obviously reading prepared material from a script. They never locked my account though. That was before you had to verify yourself to send $$$.

I moved back in 2003. That prompted me to move to a new bank as well. I was fortunate enough to have put my old bank account into Paypal when I verified my account. When I moved I sure as hell didn't update the info. It remained that way until this Spring when I accidentally forgot to change the payment method from PayPal's default of a bank account to a CC. They realized that my account was closed at that time and unverified my PP account. I had to give them my new bank account info. I hated to do it but I had to complete the purchase. I'm seriously considering signing up for a new account somewhere, using it for 6 months and then closing it just so I can get back to the way it was.

It's amazing that I've never actually gotten burnt considering how much I've used PP. The vast majority of the equipment I buy is networking gear. I'm pretty careful who I buy from. If I have any feeling that it's not a good seller I move on. I won't buy from anyone on the West coast (too much counterfeit Cisco hardware comes from China into the West coast). I'll even read all the seller's reviews and go back through their past auctions and the buyers to see if it looks legit. I guess being careful pays off. I'm definitely not a PP or eBay shill. I lost a fair bit of money in eBay stock and I think the wannabe bank PayPal should rot in litigation hell, but I never have been burnt.

Already too late for me (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23764845)

How this has affected me...

I used to use eBay and Paypal quite a bit and for the most part I've had good experiences. For quite a while I kept a significant amount of money (nearly $10,000) in my Paypal money market account, earning a fairly decent interest rate (one of the higher rates I could find at the time). I was aware that Paypal was not FDIC insured but I was fairly confident that Paypal wouldn't collapse. I had one eBay purchase where Paypal backed me up and I got a refund (except for shipping). I really didn't have any serious complaints.

After hearing the news about eBay trying to force the use of Paypal, I had to rethink my position. I was concerned that such a decision would negatively impact their business and made me less secure in keeping my money there. More importantly, I felt I could no longer "invest" in the Paypal business model. Their interest rates had also been dropping so I started looking around at bank accounts. Surprisingly (or maybe not so, in hindsight) I found one that had a better interest rate and transferred my money. Paypal was more convenient and I'm sorry to miss out on that, but Paypal has lost my business (over $10,000 worth) and I'm not going back now.

Misleading Title, DRAFT and PROPOSES, idiots (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23765647)

Hey, This isn't a done deal yet.

eBay can still sit on the current situation where everyone is required to offer PayPal.

It's the banning of all other payment methods that the ACCC has PROPOSED eBay put on hold for further review.

Like aways, slashdotters don't RTFA.

So, what is the alternative? (3, Interesting)

AmiMoJo (196126) | more than 5 years ago | (#23766223)

Can someone suggest a good alternative to PayPal? eBay seems to have banned everything else that accepts credit cards and many buyers only want to pay by cc, even when you explicitly state that you don't take them. Basically it's impossible to sell anything on fleaBay without a PayPal account I think.

Maybe an alternative to eBay is needed. Amazon is okay for books and music, but what about other stuff? eBay actually seems like quite a good way to sell some stuff, if it just wasn't for PayPal.

prepaid credit card (1)

the brown guy (1235418) | more than 5 years ago | (#23766697)

I used to sell perfume testers on eBay, but because I was under 18 and had no credit card (my parents wouldn't let me use theirs) I just bought a prepaid visa with $50 on it, and hooked it up to my paypal account.This way, if paypal ever really wanted my money, then they would be unable to take it from my CC like they normally do (my paypal balance is always a few dollars, and bank account is used solely for paypal). The credit card had nobodys name on it, but an expiry date and the right amount of numbers. They also deposited like $0.77 in my account and asked how much they deposited later to validate my account or w/e.
Just an offtopic interesting note. Either or.

Extortionate fee system (2, Informative)

hack slash (1064002) | more than 5 years ago | (#23767101)

Whilst I've been using PayPal for about 8 years now and find it's very useful for paying seller, one fact irks me somewhat, with a premier account they skim money off ALL transactions you receive even if the sender is using funds held in their PayPal account.

So basically they can charge a lot of money just to make one person's account balance go down and another go up - that's never happened when I've done a bank transfer within the UK.

Daylight fucking robbery.

I don't understand what is your problem with PP (0)

Pentium100 (1240090) | more than 5 years ago | (#23767847)

When I buy something from eBay, I use PayPal to pay for it and never encountered any problems. If the item does not arrive after ~40 days I file a dispute and get my money back. PayPal is way cheaper than international bank transfer which would take 10-20EUR depending on the destination country. Even if the seller wants 5% addition to cover PayPal charges it is cheaper than international bank transfer (usually). Also, no a lot of sellers accept credit card directly and paying with PayPal is safer than giving the seller my credit card number

Where is the EU? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#23767873)

Seriously, why hasnt the EU started an anti-trust investigation as well?
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