W3C's Role In the Growth of a Proprietary Web 228
Paul Ellis writes "Mozilla's Asa Dotzler has said 'It's really hard for me to believe that either [Microsoft or Adobe] have the free and open Web at heart when they're actively subverting it with closed technologies like Flash and Silverlight.' But are they really subverting it? Where is the line between serving the consumer and subverting the Web? This blog post makes the case that the W3C's glacial process should share in the blame for the growth of proprietary technologies."
Please (Score:5, Insightful)
Just keep in mind, there's nothing stopping web developers from using straight HTML, CSS, JPG, PNG and GIF for basic animation. If you need media, you can embed an mpeg or a simple wav file. If you need processing, you can do it as CGI/server-side, at the same time ensuring 100% browser compatibility and avoiding the hijacking the web-client's CPU. Don't blame Adobe or MS or Sun for providing closed or deeply complicated, uncontrollable technologies; blame yourself for using them.
Flash no more "subverts" the web than Photoshop "subverts" image processing, or the GPL subverts how software is published. You want to use these things, that's your choice. There are other options available that are just as useful, and in some cases, more so.
Agree, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree that this article is complete flamebait. SVG is largely usable RIGHT NOW but MSIE have chosen not to adopt it for obvious commercial reasons. It could of course easily be fixed (perhaps the best practical way to do it is for governments to implement and enforce online accessibility legislation which would automatically force major sites to code to standards).
However, the article is completely right in denigrating the remarks of Asa Dotzler. IMHO he is completely overrated as a member of the Mozilla community. He was head of QA at the time of the appalling security REGRESSION in FF 1.0.4. He spends all his blog-time denigrating Opera and Safari instead of getting on with QA. He categorically denied the memory leaks in FF2 regardless of the evidence. It's fine to engage in advocacy but if you want to start being snide to opponents on technical grounds you should really be backed up with solid technical credentials instead of hot air. Fortunately he is no longer really engaged with the QA side of things, and is just a 'professional loudmouth'. PRO TIP: He is listed on feedhouse.mozillazine.org but not on planet.mozilla.org; the signal/noise ratio improves markedly if you subscribe to the latter Mozilla aggregator instead of the former.
Re:Agree, but... (Score:5, Funny)
The government already fucks up everything it touches.
Yes, the colossal failure of TCP/IP is one clear example.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Governmental failures: Every other action government has taken in the history of mankind.
Re: (Score:2)
That's some really biting nuanced analysis you got there. I hope all our big technical and regulatory decisions can be made with that degree of deliberation.
Re:Please (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Please (Score:5, Interesting)
But don't you see this (coding for IE) as a separate issue (from Flash/Silverlight/PDF)?
I'm totally ticked off whenever I try to open a site that has IE-bug hacks that won't display in FF, or on my iPhone, or Mac. I generally try not to re-visit those sites... but it stinks because there's information out there that would be useful to me that I can't access because it's tied up in some odd display scheme that renders images over the text. (Yes, for really interesting things I could look at the page source, but manually ignoring HTML tags is a crappy way to parse information)
This is because I expect a "normal" page to render in a browser-agnostic way. (OK, "expect" is too strong, because I've been around a while now. But that's the way it SHOULD be). For a basic HTML page, no matter how it's built on the back end, I expect to get something viewable.
I see the Flash/Silverlight/PDF issue as separate, because it's usually (over)used for stupid stuff like an on-line "catalog" where you can actually "flip" the pages (horrors! an IRL metaphor gone badly wrong on the Web) or to do games or something else that is (to me) trivial. I mean, I'm not expecting to be informed by pages that have a 30-second Flash intro...
But that's just me, and I do see how the two issues are related to the problem of "proprietary" stuff on the Web.
Re: (Score:2)
But don't you see this (coding for IE) as a separate issue (from Flash/Silverlight/PDF)?
Well sort of. I've been guilty of building "IE Only" sites in the distant past. But when the choice was either use DHTML/AJAX with the only browser that had decent support for it at the time, versus Java or Flash, it wasn't necessarily a bad decision. (For the record, these were intranet sites.)
Re: (Score:2)
Well sort of. I've been guilty of building "IE Only" sites in the distant past.
I hear ya there bud, one day I sat down and thought about my target audience, this was years back of course. Only a few hundred to a thousand people most of whom I could contact IRL, 99.8% where using IE4 at the time. There was just no point in wasting an extra timing coding for an audience that didn't exist.
Re: (Score:2)
Well... that's all well and good, unless the stupid stuff is all the web site provides--and with MS's ability to leverage its monopooly to make sure the majority of people have Silverlight (or whatever proprietary thing they want to force on the world), the temptation to only do the proprietary version is strong.
Check out the new page for weather at www.kcci.com (the Des Moines, IA CBS affiliate). Unless you have Silverlight, it's useless.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Thankfully, I can rely on /. for most of my news and rely on TV broadcasts for the rest of it.
Then you sir, must have one incredibly twisted world view.
I would, at the very least, suggest replacing TV Broadcast news with NPR [npr.org] and PBS [pbs.org]
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Please (Score:4, Insightful)
Flash accessibility has improved significantly in the past few years. However that doesn't mean that Flash designers always avail themselves of this technology. I suspect the type of designer who would happily use Flash for navigation is the type of designer who is unaware blind people use computers at all.
Re: (Score:2)
What really pisses me off is when hardware with web access (i.e. my dsl modem) can't render properly under Firefox. WTF? I have to drop back to IE just to get everything displaying properly. There's absolutely no excuse for using fancy tricks in a damn administration console. If anything should be browser-agnostic, this is it!
Re:Please (Score:4, Insightful)
That's only true if you are talking about web site operators. If you are a user, you are forced to to use whatever the web sites you use demands, or go without. No flash? No Youtube.
The cost of a lack of standardization falls on the user. It's not the web sites that have a mish mash of proprietary technologies installed, its the user. Any stability or security costs from this situation are borne by the user.
Really,there isn't much justification for Flash any longer. Really,the biggest value it has is that it's a legal way to obtain patented video codecs.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
My hopes from flash after the adobe buyout were to see a version that was simp
Re:Please (Score:5, Interesting)
The key word there is BASIC. Complex animations, applications, and games are where Flash excels. Web Browsers did not provide sufficient facilities until recently. And only then because the browser makers got fed up with the W3C's stance that HTML did not need to be updated, and ended up doing an end run [whatwg.org] around their process. In result, most web browsers (except IE, surprise, surprise) support APIs for complex animations. They are also adding support for long term storage, sophisticated networking, predictable parsing, and other features that will greatly aid web developers.
This minor coup has not gone unnoticed by the W3C. In order to maintain the coherency of their organization, they went ahead and accepted HTML 5 [w3.org] as a working draft. The specification is getting top priority and is being handled in an open manner that is most unlike the W3C's business as usual. In other words, a win for both browser and web app developers. :-)
Re:Please (Score:4, Informative)
I think there are two different issues being talked about here. The first is, "Has W3C done a good job of maintaining and developing standards?" I'm very open to the idea that they could have done better. I've dealt with HTML and CSS enough to have a long wishlist.
The second question, very roughly, is "What's the deal with Flash/Silverlight?" Are they good? Bad? Helpful? Troublesome? I can see how people are trying to connect these two issues, but they really are separate.
If you just want to say that Microsoft and Macromedia/Adobe developed these formats and technologies because HTML/CSS/Javascript weren't good enough, that may be an interesting historical analysis. However, it doesn't address the question as to why these technologies and formats are closed/proprietary. Macromedia/Adobe, Microsoft, Mozilla, Apple, Opera, and everyone else could have joined together to develop and promote web standards other than those run by the W3C (like WHATWG). Hell, they could even develop technologies and formats to serve their purposes, and then open those formats in a way that allows other developers to create their own implementations (like what Adobe essentially did with PDF).
However, they've chosen to keep it all proprietary, and the intent is pretty clear: vendor lock-in. They want you to use their tools for development, their tools for display. In Microsoft's case, it has the added extra bonus that, if their format becomes popular enough, they can drop support for other operating systems and lock everyone into their platform.
And when you get down to it, these technologies don't really address a really great need. I've only seen a couple of good uses for Flash other than for casual games. For most of the content available on the web, HTML and CSS (flawed as they are) are better solutions.
Re: (Score:3)
I don't really agree with that. I would guess you frequent different websites than the majority of the population, and are perfectly contempt with HTML and CSS 95% of the time.
But for (truly) animated menues, embedded video, and sound effects, I've never seen anything work as good as flash. And I don't think any of these should be seen as unnecessary bloat.
Sorry, but I first need to interject. Do you mean "perfectly content"?
Anyway, I don't think I've seen any (that I can think of at least) uses of Flash for animated menu systems or sound effects that wouldn't have been better served by doing it in a standard way, or else (just as likely) by doing it not at all. Scanning my memory, I don't think I've encountered a single flash menu system that was "truly animated" where the animation served any particular purpose. I can't think of any that were even toler
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I leave Flash uninstalled. I keep a second browser set up for multimedia, but I rarely use it.
For the most part Flash is a trojan that delivers ads and slows down the damn web.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Please (Score:4, Insightful)
And there is no need for more than a few computers in the entire world, or more than 640k of RAM, etc...
Who are you to say that the web isn't the right place for complex applications or a place for application deployments? The history of the web may have been to serve up text documents and markup, but it's pretty clear we have moved way beyond that now as I sit here downloading music, streaming a movie, and writing a web application that will replace a desktop application.
Re: (Score:2)
It's pretty clear we need a new protocol for semi-platform-neutral networked applications. Something designed from the ground up to offer broad support for doing what the web is trying to do now.
This shouldn't all be riding on HTTP.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
There is absolutely no reason that the web should be turned into an application deployment platform
The ubiquity of web browsers and the broad support for http including the many caching solutions seem like two valid reasons to me.
and doing so completely undermines the purpose and nature of the web.
Which is what, exactly? And why is your degree that which determines its purpose? And actually, its nature is that there are a bunch of fileservers out there which will often spew data at you if you ask for them by name... and little more than that.
The reason that search engines work is that websites, as created with HTML, can easily be indexed and understood by computers. Hypertext is about linking documents -- DOCUMENTS -- together.
Interestingly, web servers have pretty much always allowed you to serve arbitrary content. At least, as long as they've been availab
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes. Can you imagine the madness if millions of people were to abuse the web to make it their primary way or reading email, posting content online, listening to radio shows, watching television shows, or playing amusing little games? It would be the end times! Sheep would lie down with lions! Web browsers would lie down with email clients! No, I like my web nice and static, just like paper documents! We should not only do away with this newfangled Flash, we need to be rid of that JavaScript! And don'
Albino Blacksheep, Newgrounds, and YouTube (Score:3, Insightful)
And the reason why a website needs to have complex animations or applications is...
Perhaps a web site exists for the sole purpose of exhibiting complex animations to the public. Examples include Albino Blacksheep, Newgrounds, and YouTube. How would you have built these sites differently?
Re:Please (Score:4, Insightful)
MS do stop web developers from using straight CSS. There are so many basic layout features that are not implemented or buggy that I understand why some developers go down the propitiatory route for the sake of a consistent look. And it wasn't that long ago when IE still couldn't display a PNG with an alpha channel.
70-75% of web users can't be wrong.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Propitiatory is what Jesus' sacrifice was for mankind (completely and exactly covered -- in this case, our sins).
Proprietary is when something is specific to a given entity - not open, not shared, exclusively owned by something.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Does this mean I should stop crucifying Microsoft's policies?
Re: (Score:2)
Does this mean I should stop crucifying Microsoft's policies?
If they keep coming back to life after three days, then yes.
Please Yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
Just keep in mind, there's nothing stopping web developers from using straight HTML, CSS, JPG, PNG and GIF for basic animation.
And what if they want something fancier than "basic animation"?
Flash no more "subverts" the web than Photoshop "subverts" image processing,
Apples and oranges. Images created in Photoshop don't need any special software to view. Content created in Flash does.
... or the GPL subverts how software is published.
On the contrary, GPL is meant to subvert proprietary software publishing. The difference is that the subversion is deliberate, and meant to open things up, as opposed to the closing off that Flash, which shuts things off, but only as a kind of side effect.
This is rather an old story. Back in 1995, back when Netscape was the biggest operator in a competitive browser market, they took a lot of flack for introducing non-standard features into HTML. And they didn't do it to "close off the market", they did it because they wanted to create web applications that weren't supported by existing standards, and weren't going to wait for W3C to bring the standards up to date.
Then we went through the whole thing all over with Microsoft and Internet Explorer. And because MS really was trying to control the marketplace, everybody ignored the role W3C was playing. And still plays.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't blame Adobe or MS or Sun for providing closed or deeply complicated, uncontrollable technologies; blame yourself for using them.
But I don't use them and never did. My sites were all 100% HTML/Javascript/JPG/GIF. When Dopey Smurf decided to close his Quake site after graduating from medical school, I sent him a box of invisible rats as a going away present. Rats were his bane in med school; one supposedly dead rat came alive and bit him as he was dissecting it. His parting site mentioned the invisible
Audio compression and synchronization? (Score:2)
I had a music clip start playing when the surfer hit my site, with dancing Stroggs. If you held your mouse over one of the stroggs, Sonic the Hedgehog ran past with the Strogg trying to stomp him and succeeding on the second try. All this was done with .wav files, .gif files and javascript.
Which codec did you use for the WAVE audio? And how did you synchronize it to the GIF animation?
I blame Microsoft for the ad covering the top story on the front page of slashdot in IE because their browser won't do standards, but I also blame the site's authors.
Not everybody can afford to test in every possible environment. At what size of web site would you consider forcing the web site's operator to purchase at least three workstations, including one that runs Windows and one that runs Mac OS X?
Re: (Score:2)
That argument disappeared with the introduction of x86 Macs. Buy an x86 Mac and you can test in every major browser on every major platform. And what's the third workstation for?
Re: (Score:2)
That argument disappeared with the introduction of x86 Macs.
But it still means that every operator of a web site over a given size needs to buy a Macintosh computer, enough RAM to run three operating systems at once, a copy of Parallels Desktop for Mac, and a copy of Windows Vista in order to test the web site in all three major platforms (Windows, Mac, Linux). At what audience size should a webmaster converting his hobby site to a professional site add an iMac to his home network?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Which codec did you use for the WAVE audio? And how did you synchronize it to the GIF animation?
I don't remember what codec, LAME maybe. The audio was cut down to 11k samples per second, eight bits, and only about fifteen seconds long because most people were on dialup. It wasn't synchronized at all, but oddly it seemed to be.
Not everybody can afford to test in every possible environment.
If nobody ever had, Microsoft would have been forced to use standards. But using CSS is the problem here, since that's th
Re: (Score:2)
... The audio was cut down to 11k samples per second, eight bits, and only about fifteen seconds long because most people were on dialup. It wasn't synchronized at all, but oddly it seemed to be....
You're the one who created Hampsterdance ?!?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So, you played a wav file in the background, and had a few simplistic gifs respond to cursor position, and you think this qualifies as "Web 2.0"?
And you refuse to acess the content of professional web designers, because they use a technology which allows them to do their job faster, easier and better than what you suggest?
Have you ever thought about the limitations of your approach?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
IE has actually provided several critical technologies which have expanded and improved the capabilities of the environment, including XMLHttpRequest without which interactive apps today would be rather difficult. If anything these technologies have actually helped grab back some ground from flash for the browser. Now, if w3c does not recognise these valuable and very important APIs, thats the w3c's problem! Stop blaming Microsoft for taking initiative and implementing features that are badly needed because
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I am pretty sure XMLHttpRequest is a browser side feature, having written javascript code that runs on the browser that uses this feature, I am pretty sure this is the case. XMLHttpRequest allows you to have the browser start a connection to the server, for whatever reason, to fetch more data after a user generated event or something.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
What the hell are you talking about? [microsoft.com]
wav is not so simple; neither is sync (Score:4, Insightful)
there's nothing stopping web developers from using straight HTML, CSS, JPG, PNG and GIF for basic animation.
What should I use for vector animation? Windows Internet Explorer still doesn't work well with SVG+JS.
If you need media, you can embed an mpeg or a simple wav file.
Like AVI, WAVE is a container that can wrap any of several audio codecs, including MP3. Which codecs more sophisticated than straight PCM are supported in most web browsers? And how can I indicate to the majority of web browsers how a particular MPEG-1 file or WAVE file should be synchronized to JavaScript-mediated animation? I don't know of any web browsers that are compatible with SMIL.
Re: (Score:2)
The flash video player was central to youtube's success. Embedded mpeg sucks.
*developers* have choice, what about users? (Score:2)
No established standards means developers might as well use one "standard" as another. Then we users constantly fight with browser incompatibilities, and having to install plug-ins, etc.
it's about text vs binary content (Score:3, Insightful)
Apples vs oranges comparison, or in this case, text vs binary. HTML is an open, text-based representation of document layout and text content. Flash also, as one of its many features, provides document layout and text content. The difference is that HTML is easily parsed and understood by *many* consumers; Flash has mainly one consumer at the client, and SWF content is not very easily parsed and understood outside of Adobe's plugi
Flash costs $700 (Score:2)
Both [Flash and Silverlight] have relatively low barriers of entry
Please see the response in this comment [slashdot.org].
The W3C? Glacial? (Score:5, Interesting)
It always amazes me when people call the W3C slow. As a web developer, there is one main thing holding me back. That is Internet Explorer.
Internet Explorer 8 is not yet released. When it is, it is likely that it will finally include support for CSS 2. This is one of the most fundamental parts of a modern web browser, and this specification was published over ten years ago.
The rise of JavaScript libraries like jQuery, Prototype, etc, was largely precipitated by the lack of support for DOM 2 Events in Internet Explorer. That specification was published in the year 2000.
The main draw for Flash has traditionally been the ability to use vector graphics. The alternative provided by the W3C, which is SVG, was first published in 2001.
The article complains that the last XHTML/HTML recommendation the W3C published was in 2001, seven years ago. What it neglects to mention is that even the next version of Internet Explorer, version 8, will not include any support at all for XHTML 1.0, let alone 1.1.
Can the W3C work faster? Probably. But how fast the W3C works is irrelevant, as they are not the bottleneck. The bottleneck is the rate of development in browsers, and one browser in particular, Internet Explorer. And it just so happens that the proprietary alternative of Silverlight is something developed and owned by the same company.
Mod parent up... (Score:4, Insightful)
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy by the worst abuser.
Re:The W3C? Glacial? (Score:5, Interesting)
Right on the mark.
SVG in particular is a sore topic for me. Half a decade ago I had an article in MSDN magazine [microsoft.com] (I considered the odds slim when I proposed it, and was startled when they ok'd it), yet that gorgeous vector technology still isn't realistically usable on the open web today, which is a bit of a travesty. Adobe's purchase of Macromedia pretty much sealed it as a fringe technology, given that Adobe was the one big proponent of SVG.
Re: (Score:2)
True, SVG should be a standard available on all browsers, but only FF supports it. Such a pity.
Perhaps we could do with OpenGL on the web instead. If we can now run C apps in the browser (:) ) then surely it'd be really easy to get going. Then you'd get some developers jumping ship and a whole new range of interactive web-based applications.
Re:The W3C? Glacial? (Score:5, Informative)
Opera, Safari and Konqueror support SVG too. Internet Explorer is the only major browser that doesn't.
Re: (Score:2)
Lots of browsers support it. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one browser that doesn't, and I've heard (not verified) that even that one can use it with a plugin, which makes SVG at least as deployable as Flash.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
However, proprietary extensions from other companies like Adobe seem perfectly fine to use. The problem comes when the OS, browser and extensions are all from one company.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:The W3C? Glacial? (Score:5, Informative)
This is simply not true. The CSS 2 recommendation was published on the 12th of May 1998 [w3.org].
You may be thinking of CSS 2.1 [w3.org], which is a candidate recommendation. What this means is that it is ready to be implemented. In order for it to reach final recommendation status, there needs to be at least two interoperable implementations for every feature. To achieve that, browser vendors need to go ahead and implement it.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
CSS 3 is a family of specifications [w3.org], not a single specification. Some of those too are at candidate recommendation stage, ready for implementing, just like CSS 2.1.
In any case, what's your point? I mentioned CSS 2 because it was published by the W3C a decade ago and its features are still not available to most web developers because Internet Explorer doesn't support it. How is the fact that the W3C carried on and started working on CSS 3 relevant? It still means the bottleneck is Internet Explorer, m
Re:The W3C? Glacial? (Score:5, Funny)
CSS4 is still in the works. The final version has still not been published.
CSS5 is still in the works. The final version has still not been published.
CSS6 is still in the works. The final version has still not been published.
CSS7 is still in the works. The final version has still not been published.
CSS8 is still in the works. The final version has still not been published.
CSS9 is still in the works. The final version has still not been published.
CSS10 is still in the works. The final version has still not been published.
CSS11 is still in the works. The final version has still not been published.
This is a large paragraph full of useless text to get around Slashdot's annoying "characters per line" filter. It is generously padded with long lines of text to increase the average line length significantly over it's originally puny value of 19.0. Ideally, this paragraph will let me post the above comment. I certainly don't recommend reading all this, since it is intended entirely as filler content, like the other nine songs on a pop CD. This is fluff, like the fluff that drifts from the cottonwood trees, or spewed from major news organizations like so many soggy white drifts from an industrial snowblower. Really, I'm losing my mind writing this. Ok, lets try now! Nope, still not good enough. Right now I'm at 25.7. I'm really not sure where the cutoff is, so I'll just keep going. I gotta tell you, I honestly don't think the film rights to this whole saga are gonna be worth much: didn't Dumb and Dumberer tank? Seriously, SCO should move to California where things are already so far off their rocker that even McBride would fit in. One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish...A chicken farmer went out, one dark and windy day. He rested by the coop, as he went along his way. When all at once a rotten egg, hit him in the eye. It was the site he dreaded...ghost chickens in the sky. Ok, maybe that's enough drivel. I'll try posting again.
CSS2, CSS2.1, or CSS3? (Score:2)
CSS2 is still in the works. The final version has still not been published.
Recommendation is as close to "final" status as you can get out of W3C. This page [w3.org] claims that CSS2 became a Recommendation in May 1998, over a decade ago. Or were you thinking of CSS2.1, which has been a Candidate Recommendation for a couple weeks shy of a year [w3.org], or CSS3, which is still a Working Draft?
Re: (Score:2)
XForms 1.0 [w3.org], pub
Re:The W3C? Glacial? (Score:4, Informative)
Once Netscape's "air supply" had been cut off, Internet Explorer's job was done. Microsoft disbanded the Internet Explorer team, assigned the team members to different projects and discontinued development. Things remained that way for five years. That is why Internet Explorer is so far behind.
Microsoft was a member of the W3C working groups that developed and published these specifications. You'll find numerous acknowledgements to their employees in the specifications.
The W3C has been burned, too... (Score:5, Informative)
Don't forget that the W3C came up with a standard that included among other things a much better version of embedded images (the FIG tag), and even had a browser built demonstrating them (Arena), that demonstrated a clean browser-invariant mechanism for metadata, captions, and complex alternative content... and absolutely none of it was picked up by proprietary browsers. They were trying to specify stuff ahead of the implementations, and the implementers ignored them.
So now they're trying to coordinate things with the browser implementers, and what happens, they're going too slow?
W3C glacial process? (Score:5, Insightful)
I find it funny that someone (especially from Mozilla) blames the W3C for glacial process, when even Firefox 3 still doesn't have something as basic as box-shadow (with the "-moz" vendor prefix of course, since the spec is still a draft).
And Opera, which used to be the "latest" in W3C support (even draft), still doesn't support border-radius nor box-shadow in their latest version.
Like it or not, Safari is pushing W3C standards faster than Opera and Firefox combined.
As for Microsoft, they're still trying to kill the web in two ways: with extremely slow/buggy compliance with W3C standards and with proprietary crap like Silverlight.
Adobe has Flash and Air, which isn't really better except for the fact that at least they're trying to push their crap on many platforms, not only Windows.
Even Flash could be replaced on websites like YouTube if the browsers finally supported HTML 5's media tags.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, I don't care why they don't support it (even with a vendor prefix), I just know that they don't. I did assume that they will support it in a later version, though. This is Opera, after all. I'm not expecting a delay of more than one or two minor versions before it supports it.
I must admit that I find it strange to see Safari 3 support both border-radius and box-shadow while Firefox 3 only has border-radius and Opera 9.5 has neither of them.
Re: (Score:2)
It could have been split in two, however that's the beauty of vendor prefixes: since the specs are still in draft, everything added should continue to work until the specs are finalized (and then we add the proper parameters without the vendor prefixes).
In the meantime I'll continue to use the border-radius and box-shadow, it beats having to mess up my markup with useless DIVs and cut up graphics just to make a damn rectangle with round corners and drop shadows. Rinse, repeat if you need to change the radiu
Subverted by Silverlight ?!?! (Score:2)
Subvert? (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh whatever. If you want to do everything in the kludgy, poorly-crafted alphabet soup hodge-podge of W3C standards, be my guest. Silverlight is too new to say, but the success of Flash is evidence of the failure of the open standards process to meet the needs of developers (and the businesses that employ them) in a timely fashion. Frankly, I suspect it will always be this way. The normal course of events is for private parties to develop new technologies and for standards committees to enshrine them in formal standards after the fact. Take for example C and C++ (or practically every other standardized programming language), which were standardized after they were successful languages. Having standards committees drive the process is the tail wagging the dog, and it's no wonder web technology is so far behind the curve that people get excited every time some feature as trivial as AJAX is added to browsers.
The fact of the matter is that it is still much harder to build a complex client-server application in a web browser than it is to use traditional desktop GUI tools. And given the pace of prior developments, the W3C isn't likely to change that while it still matters.
video (Score:2)
HTML has had a tag for video, from the very beginning: anchor. <A HREF="blahblah.mpg">watch this video</A>
Re: (Score:2)
You're confusing a link to a video file with a video embedded directly into the webpage itself.
Re: (Score:2)
IE has supported <IMG SRC="blahblah.mpg"> for years.
The problem with video has to do more with vendors warring over proprietary codecs and trying to shove their spamware media players into everyone's face. I tend to give the W3C a pass on this one because specing out a tag ain't exactly complicated.
Re:video (Score:4, Informative)
That's not really an alternative to Flash movies, which are usually embedded in a page rather than linked to. The alternative to Flash movies would be <object type="video/mpeg"> , which was introduced with HTML 4 in 1997.
Re: (Score:2)
HTML has had a tag for video, from the very beginning: anchor. <A HREF="blahblah.mpg">watch this video</A>
Not the same thing. That is just a link, that would open either a new web page, or fire off an external app. What about the embedded movie player as per flash? THAT is what is being referenced...and HTML still doesn't it.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
HTML has had a tag for video, from the very beginning: anchor.
There are a few problems with using <a href="URI of video file">watch</a>.
First, no widely used specification recommends any specific Content-type for video that browsers SHOULD [ietf.org] support. W3C tried to specify Content-type: application/ogg, but Nokia bitched [slashdot.org]. So all your users will see is "Windows cannot open this file. To open this file, Windows needs to know what program created it. Windows can go online to look it up automatically, or you can manually select from a list of programs on your c
Re: (Score:2)
anyone remember vrml? (Score:5, Insightful)
virtual reality markup language. didn't think so
a standards body should be slow, not out front, writing standards for things no one knows will be successful or not
in fact, the commercial players SHOULD get proprietary, aggresive technologies out there, seeking new markets. let them play and crash and burn
then, after something proves successful, the standards body plods along and picks it up and makes it canon
the idea that the standards body should get out front, leads to standards being written for things no one uses. the idea that commercial companies won't try to capitalize on owning the technology presumes that corporations are interested in not making money. let a company write nonstandard tech. its a gamble for them, and could hurt them. let them get hurt then, and make space for things like firefox
so the whole basis for the story here is preposterous: ok, we have different browsers and competing platforms and different standards and proprietary tech. big. fucking. deal. get your head out of your anal retentive ass and deal with it
oh it takes 10 hours to program a page that should take 10 minutes to program were everyone fascistically devoted to standards? well then you wouldn't have a job genius. you wouldn't be needed. the mess you have to deal with is proof you are needed. if it weren't messy, you'd be downsized and replaced by a perl script
people who whine and bitch and moan about standards and noncompliance are motivated by the same shrill cloying need as grammar nazis. and if you understand why grammar nazis are essentially useless, annoying, and just don't get it, you understand whats up those who are so shrill about standardsthe world is a messy place. get used to it
Re: (Score:2)
the mess you have to deal with is proof you will never get promoted, do anything useful and joy of work will only happen in sex (on vacation, because coming some at 2 a.m. and cursing about browsers is not exactly romantic)
There, fixed it for you
Re: (Score:2)
I'm probably wrong here but didn't VRML it kill itself via multiple patents across multiple companies and a continued shift from usable markup to nebulous mess?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That's the broken window fallacy. Work for the sake of work is not an accomplishment, it's an embarrassment.
I've actually replaced somebody's weekend work with VBScript. You're forget
then lets put it this way (Score:3, Insightful)
new tech is an act of creation. it is try, and fail, try , and fail. corporations are motivated by profit to try, and fail. no one, NO ONE can get out in front of this messy process of new technology creation and write standards for it, because no one is omniscient about what isn't even in existence yet
the fallout of course is competing technologies as various companies get the hang of it. once upon a time, there were competing electrical grids, competing rail tie size, competing shoe sizes, etc. now, all t
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
then, after something proves successful, the standards body plods along and picks it up and makes it canon
Hm, nice idea! Let's begin with issuing open standards for such successful (in terms of marketshare) technologies as SMB, BluRay, Flash, doc/xls/ppt and so on. What do you mean 'no way'? Ah, the proprietors do not want to make a de facto standard a de jure one by opening it up... I should have known.
and what is wrong with that? (Score:2)
and what is wrong with that? if i build a word processor with a proprietary format, i'm making a bet. i'
Bells and whistles and nothing more (Score:4, Insightful)
Just imagine how much less information we would have on the web if we weren't able to make sprites and words fly around like a bad theme park movie. HTML simply is no good at sharing knowledge.
Own it..? (Score:5, Insightful)
Who really owns something that you make in Flash? Just as when you write a document in Word, when you compose in a proprietary format, you hand the keys over to the vendor. You, and anybody who wants to view or edit what you've created, have to go through the One Software Company. And that's permanent; whatever DRM or platform decisions the company makes in the future will bind you as well.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
"Who really owns something that you make in Flash?"
You do.
"Just as when you write a document in Word,"
Yep still you
"when you compose in a proprietary format, you hand the keys over to the vendor."
Gnash for Flash and save as RTF for Word.
"You, and anybody who wants to view or edit what you've created, have to go through the One Software Company."
Umm no. At least not when it comes to Word.
I am no fan of flash but grand sweeping false statements make my feet itch.
Macromedia has documented FLASH and gnu is prod
Re: (Score:2)
Umm no. At least not when it comes to Word.
I am no fan of flash but grand sweeping false statements make my feet itch.
Dude, I'm pretty sure that isn't sweeping statements. There are these powders you can buy....
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
Re:Own it..? (Score:4, Funny)
I know, I are have a smarts, I are
Entry barriers (Score:2)
I really don't care who owns flash. All I care about is, can I watch it online and can I make my own content with it and own it. Thats yes and yes.
Not everybody has $700 for Flash. Relying on proprietary formats raises the entry barrier for people who want to learn a technology but do not qualify for academic pricing because they have already completed their formal schooling.
Re: (Score:2)
A big chunk of flexSDK was opened.
Some of what can be done with Flex can be done with AJAX. But as I understand it, what makes Flash Flash is vector animation. I haven't been able to find a lot of web references as to how well one can create animations with Flex and no Flash. This page [adobe.com] claims that one can import still SVGs into a Flex project, but for vector animations, it appears that one still needs some other way of generating an SWF.
Re:oh please (Score:5, Insightful)
If we did things their way we'd have perfectly rendering web pages all the time, but the content they hosted would be so dull most consumers wouldn't be interested.
That's evident by the fact that not one of the major websites out there that I can think of (facebook, google, microsoft, and even the bbc to name a few) are fully W3C compliant.
Well, there are a couple things about "compliance" to consider. First, because browsers don't always implement the standards fully or properly, you might have to use hacks to get everything to display properly in all browsers. Current web designers have to know browsers' bugs as much as the standards, so many web pages can't comply with the standards and render properly at the same time. That doesn't mean the standards are at fault. The inability to follow standards on the web is largely traceable to a single company which refuses to make a compliant browser.
But also, the real issue of standards is not to force everything into compliance at all times. It's to give a standard way of doing things so that people can expect certain things to be consistent. The point of web standards is so that I, as a developer, can write a web page in accordance with a set of rules, and then have a reasonable expectation that the page will display properly. It makes it so I shouldn't really have to worry about what browser the end-user has installed, because they should all display the page (roughly) the same way. If you wish to violate the standards for some purpose, that's fine, but then you should familiarize yourself with how that violation will effect various platforms. But, in fact, there are even standards about how formats should handle violations of the standard, and so even the violation may be... well... according to the standard.
But none of this explains to me why the standards would make the *content* of web pages "dull". If the content is interesting, the web wouldn't generally be dull. Relying on presentation to make your content exciting doesn't speak well for your content, and on the Internet, content is king.
If anything, it seems like the Internet wouldn't exist as it does today if the HTML standard hadn't been so simple and open. It allowed anyone with half a brain to make webpages and display their content. The ease with which individuals can create content is essential for the P2P "community" nature of the web. If not for that, it would be like TV-- pushed from big companies who have the resources and expertise to make it work. Even expecting someone to buy expensive software (e.g. Adobe Flash) in order to develop content would hurt the web immensely. The barrier of entry is much lower when the only necessary equipment for making content is a text editor.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The web without all this proprietary stuff would be so boring it would be unreal.
Really? Why. The vast majority of what Flash can do is standardized in SVG, SMIL and many other standards that Adobe and Microsoft studiously ignore. What do you do on the Web that is so exciting that it cannot be accomplished with SVG and SMIL? Of course there are things that Flash can do but SVG cannot and vice versa. But in general, all of the major Web app categories would be served just fine with SVG et. al.
Erm... (Score:2, Insightful)
So if users actually _use_ it, why put the blame on Adobe?
Perhaps the fundamentalist notion that _everything_ must be free (as in speech) is just too extreme for, hmmmm, real people?
Here's an idea! Let's just assume that it'll always be zero-cost. Let's further assume that it'll always be available on any platform that anyone might like, rather than pushing people towards platforms that the vendor likes.
Now that that's out of the way, I can feel confident putting my content into this format, knowing that I, the content creator, <sarcasm>am in control</sarcasm>.
Re: (Score:2)
What is wrong with paying for software. You expect to be paid for your job. You are expected to pay for more basic things for life like Food, and Shelter. Why is it so bad to pay for software. Supply and demand will insure that prices will not go out of control especially with flash. If it goes to expensive cheaper alternatives will come out. Just having silverlight out there is making sure flash stays free for the viewer.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not talking about software, I'm talking about encoding my content in somebody else's format. Anybody's allowed to make whatever software they like to handle it in whatever way, and charge whatever amount, as long as the output is something I have the option of manipulating myself.
Here's your food and shelter analogy: if I'm eating a Wendy's hamburger when I write a book, my readers are not required to be eating a Wendy's hamburger when they read it. Similarly, if I'm writing in an apartment managed by
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Here's an idea! Let's just assume that it'll always be zero-cost. Let's further assume that it'll always be available on any platform that anyone might like, rather than pushing people towards platforms that the vendor likes.
Now that that's out of the way, I can feel confident putting my content into this format, knowing that I, the content creator, am in control.
Let's not buy cars either. The government could decide at any time that we aren't allowed to drive them on roads anymore! I realize that's not t
Re: (Score:2)
I have to point out that Microsoft has already tried many of these tactics to take over the Web entirely, and got frighteningly close.
Since when? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
So if users actually _use_ it, why put the blame on Adobe?
They don't know any better.
If that sounds elitist, well... Oh, well.
Perhaps the fundamentalist
Here's a tip, boys and girls: whenever you see the word "fundamentalist", mentally replace it with "consistent". It's a quick way to clear up any obfuscation and propagandization.
notion that _everything_ must be free (as in speech)
As in Rights.
is just too extreme for, hmmmm, real people?
As opposed to the Fairies of Lalaland?
Re:W3C is own worst enemy (Score:5, Informative)
The W3C put font loading [w3.org] into the CSS 2 specification over a decade ago. The browser vendors ignored it until recently. Now, ten years later, the browser vendors are starting to implement it, and apparently this means the W3C moves too slowly?