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Release Team Proposes Gnome 3.0 Plans

timothy posted more than 6 years ago | from the gnome-rocks-and-so-does-kde dept.

GNOME 306

benuski writes "Today at GUADEC, the Gnome User and Developer European Conference, the gtk+ team announced their plans for gtk+ 3.0; immediately after, the Gnome release team announced their plans for Gnome 2.30 to be changed into Gnome 3.0. This would mean a release date a year and a half to a year in the future. Details are short at the moment, but the Gnome team seems to be following in KDE's footsteps, but hopefully will avoid the problems that plagued KDE 4.0's release."

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Screens???? (3, Insightful)

SkankinMonkey (528381) | more than 6 years ago | (#24138771)

Worthless without pics ;) Is there any anticipated changelist for 3 yet?

Re:Screens???? (3, Interesting)

diegocgteleline.es (653730) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139551)

Probably clutter (http://clutter-project.org/)

Re:Screens???? (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24140097)

Woah. That craps all over the iPhone from a substantial height [moblin.org] and makes aero look pretty silly too. Is it actually practical? Who cares!

Re:Screens???? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24140703)

Cool, where's the year old phone that uses this API then?

However at least they have the right idea - copy Apple, rather than the Copy XP issues that GTK and KDE have had over the past few years.

Given that the website is bare and there aren't even any screenshots, this thing is probably 5 years off, some silly video notwithstanding.

Re:Screens???? (-1, Troll)

harshmanrob (955287) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139867)

Yeah...they will hurry up and make a gay looking widget hack like KDE 4 became. I installed it yesterday and it SUCKS. Just a rip of Vista, who ripped OS X.

Linux is getting fatter with more useless crap in its quest to become a desktop client of which is a waste. Solaris 10 is even piss poor as a desktop. Windows does it well so let's stop being religious and Linux can stay in the data center.

you got it all wrong. it's.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24140903)

Pics, or it didn't happen.

Speed it up (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24138781)

Just re-name 2.2 to 3.0 and you've released ahead of schedule!

Will it be backward compatible with Web 2.0? (5, Funny)

VampireByte (447578) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139337)

I don't want to upgrade to Web 3.0 yet.

All hail letter "g" (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24138863)

Gwow, this is Great Gnews! Let's Ghope they are Gstill Going to Geep Gusing the Gletter "G".

Re:All hail letter "g" (5, Funny)

Elliot_Lin (972399) | more than 6 years ago | (#24138953)

Gwow, this is Great Gnews! Let's Ghope they are Gstill Going to Geep Gusing the Gletter "G".

A kbit klike kthe kpeople kthen ksince kthey kdo kthis kfar ktoo koften. kmuch kmore koften kthan kthe kGNOME kpeople

Re:All hail letter "g" (2, Funny)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139425)

[quote]kGNOME [/quote]

KGNOME -- A version of GNOME built on the Qt toolkit and compatible with KDE and KParts and such. ;)

Re:All hail letter "g" (5, Interesting)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139597)

I know people will think I'm crazy, but I have a vision for kGnome.

QT 4 actually has a Clearlooks engine designed to look like Gnome. Dolphin can be configured to operate largely like Natilus (except it works better these days).

If QT 4 actully really does use less memory and runs faster, why not do a test and port a small Gnome app or two over to QT 4?

The app can run with the QT 4 Clearlooks engine, and look largely like Gnome apps, except they can take advantage of many of the KDE features like Phonon, Solid, Sonnet, etc.

As for the people who prefer C to C++, aren't there language bindings for both for QT and GTK?

I'd love to see just a few small apps as a proof of concept. It could demonstrate the feasibility of a Gnome desktop built upon QT, especially considering the annoucement of Gnome 3, and the decision to break API.

If you're going to build anew, shouldn't this concept at least be considered for a moment? Both projects can have their seperate apps, desktops, defaults, window decorations, features, etc. But more common libraries and toolkits are a win for everyone.

Re:All hail letter "g" (4, Informative)

harry666t (1062422) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140171)

Except that the Gnome apps aren't built on top of gtk, but on top of Gnome libs. And porting the Gnome libs to QT4 is what would be the pain.

Re:All hail letter "g" (1)

camperdave (969942) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140365)

Why would apps be built on a specific desktop library? Or better yet, why aren't they built on a generic library?

Re:All hail letter "g" (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140449)

Gnomelibs are currently going out the window to break compatibility. They're going to design a new gnomelibs for Gnome 3.0

A test case would perhaps to port a Gnome app to QT and kdelibs to showcase using all the KDE features like Solid, Phonon, kioslaves, etc. There is even something similiar to GnomeVFS I do believe now.

It would be great if every major app on my Linux desktop could use all these features.

The new gnomelibs could be designed to use many of these features and borrow from kdelibs.

Re:All hail letter "g" (4, Interesting)

Per Wigren (5315) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140409)

If that isn't enough, Trolltech will also provide QGtkStyle [trolltech.com] which will draw using native GTK widgets in the same way it uses native Cocoa/Carbon on OS X to make all Qt/KDE 4 applications have a Gnome look and feel, including things like the order of the dialog buttons.

Re:All hail letter "g" (2, Insightful)

moosesocks (264553) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140527)

What you describe sounds suspiciously like KDE exactly as it is, but with a gnome-like skin on top.

Come on. QT isn't "better" than GTK, nor is GTK "better" than QT.

Although it'd be nice to unify the two projects, they have extremely different mindsets. While KDE is set on becoming as feature-rich as possible (sometimes to a fault), the GNOME folks like to keep things as simple as possible (sometimes to a fault).

Also, nobody ever said that GNOME or GTK can't be lightweight [xfce.org] . I'd personally like to see the essential parts of the GNOME suite stripped down, and incorporated into Xfce like was done when Mozilla transitioned from SeaMonkey to Firefox. XFce is easily the most noticably fast and "snappy" desktop environment I've used in years. It looks pretty nice too.

Honestly, I think its in the best benefit of both projects for the other one to exist. If you want to, you can run KDE apps in Gnome and vice versa. There's nothing terribly wrong with that, and it keeps a little competition going.

Binding one language to another is also a messy affair, and C++ isn't terribly popular for Unix apps outside of the KDE world. The two projects *have* come together on issues where the two projects already had some common ground (See freedesktop.org [wikipedia.org] )

Re:All hail letter "g" (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#24141163)

I didn't say the two projects should become one. If they are going to design a new gnomelibs and base for Gnome 3.0, I think many of the core underlying libraries should come together between the two projects.

Gnome can still have all the Gnome apps, and a Gnome desktop configured how they want. However, a proof of concept app might open the door to discusing gnomelibs3.0 being built on QT and maybe even incorporating some KDE features.

Re:All hail letter "g" (1)

menace3society (768451) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140897)

I use GNUSTEP you insensitive clod!

Re:All hail letter "g" (1)

smitty_one_each (243267) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140901)

I know people will think I'm crazy, but I have a vision for kGnome.

You call that vision?
Apple adopted kGnome, and begat ikGnome.
Asus bought Apple, and begat eeeikGnome.
Warren Buffet bought Asus, shuffled the letters, and made a digital surfboard of the product:
MeNoGeekie.
He retired to Hawaii and surfed, like, for real, dude.
Now that's vision.

Re:All hail letter "g" (0)

jscalbny (1252620) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139763)

At least the Gnome folks and the KDE folks use it to designate which environment an app best works with...

I have yet to figure out what the Apple fascination with the prefix i- on absolutely everything is supposed to signify?

Re:All hail letter "g" (1)

drachenstern (160456) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140195)

iNTERNET, just as the e on so much stands for eLECTRONIC

I realize this is a backwards capitalization strategy, it was done on purpose.

Re:All hail letter "g" (4, Funny)

geminidomino (614729) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140207)

I have yet to figure out what the Apple fascination with the prefix i- on absolutely everything is supposed to signify?

The only person that matters to Steve, course.

Re:All hail letter "g" (1)

Fri13 (963421) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140665)

Seems you have not used KDE4 series, K letter has trowh out of window. It actually does bad things for new comers because they dont know is application for gnome or kde and then they complain that open/save dialog sucks if they use GTK application on kde or they complain that applications does not follow themes when using kde apps on gnome.

It was much better to have G and K somewhere on names so you always seed right away wich enviroment application it was.

I run 2.0 (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24138865)

It gets 40 rods to the hogshead and that's how I likes it.

Re:I run 2.0 (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139471)

It gets 40 rods to the hogshead and that's how I likes it.

I run 1.4 on a 3 GHZ Quad Core machine with 16 GB of memory.

Man! It's FAST!

Background (4, Interesting)

gr8_phk (621180) | more than 6 years ago | (#24138895)

Can Gnome 3.0 allow programs to render to the root window? Try running xplanet in gnome - you might catch a glimpse of something when you shut down. Try playing video on root with VLC - no uh uh. There are hacks to get screen savers and things to run on the background. This seems to be a fundamental design "feature" of gnome - the kind of thing you'd want to change in a major version bump. Or are they calling it 3.0 because 2.30 sounds too much like some really old software being patched over and over?

Re:Background (5, Informative)

jwkfs (1260442) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139625)

Gnome draws the desktop+icons on the root window. If you want to draw something else there, you need to disable this (there's a gconf key somewhere).

Re:Background (4, Informative)

burner (8666) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140071)

Probably /apps/nautilus/preferences/show_desktop.

Reverse Position (2, Interesting)

Elliot_Lin (972399) | more than 6 years ago | (#24138913)

Funny that this is a precise opposite of the position that the GNOME project has held for so long - perhaps the KDE people are beginning to scare them? I sincerely hope not (and doubt it)

it's all about the mindset (5, Interesting)

l2718 (514756) | more than 6 years ago | (#24138935)

It involves a relatively smooth transition from 2.x to 3.x, a more focused and inclusive development process, long-term development cycles, and more.

In other words, at this stage this is about the development team, not about the technical issues.

Problem with KDE 4 (1, Interesting)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#24138979)

The problem with KDE 4 has nothing to do with features of stability, but the transparency of the project.

Many of the nicer features like Solid, Phonon, Sonnet, Akondi, etc. aren't visible. Plasma is extremely visible. It affects the users directly.

Yet no one knows what the long term design plans ffor Plasma are. The users keep getting surprised, and they feel that Plasma over-promised and under-delivered.

On top of that you have Aaron Segio now suggesting that users should have less control over configuration, fewer choices, and saying that end users are dumb. He also has suggested repeatedly lately that if you're not a coder, then you can't comment on UI issues.

Gnome already has a few of those problems (removing choice, treating users like they're dumb) but Gnome users don't seem to mind. For corporate environments, or people who can't be troubled to configure things, they just want working defaults and simplicity. That isn't a flame, but rather the way things are.

I can't expect Gnome users getting upset unless they don't have a good working, default desktop.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24139257)

I can't expect Gnome users getting upset unless they don't have a good working, default desktop.

And, considering the state of Nautilus, I can't expect them getting upset even in that case.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24139479)

If aaron commit privileges can be revoked it will solve 90% of current kde problems.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24139693)

If AC post privilege could be revoked it would prevent 90% of the crap posts.

Aaron Segio (1, Insightful)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139699)

I've been disagreeing with a lot, but I don't like to see people bash him as a person.

Frankly, he seems to be a great coder, and plenty of developers keep prasing Plasma as a framework.

My concerns are more about his philosophy and PR capabilities.

Re:Aaron Segio (-1, Troll)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139779)

I wouldn't bash him if he wasn't a dickhead.

Re:Aaron Segio (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24140135)

I wouldn't bash him if he wasn't a dickhead.

Whew! I'm glad you weren't my son's mohel!

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (5, Interesting)

Bluefirebird (649667) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139531)

KDE 4 is clearly the most future-proof desktop environment out there.
In terms of graphic capabilities, it can natively suppport every feature available on OSX and in Vista, besides a few new features that are unique to KDE 4. In theory, it would be possible to create a desktop that looks-and-feels EXACTLY like OSX or Vista.
However, the best features are not those, but rather the platform independence with native API support. This means that, unlike JAVA, you can create one piece of software that compiles in Linux, OSX and Windows, using the OS-specific APIs. So, the same software compiled in OSX and in Windows look completely different and they didn't have a single line of code changed. The platform independence is not available for everything... for now, you can only compile things like Openoffice. However, the multimedia API, as well as other APIs are being developed.
The other thing great about KDE4 is that it is done with SVG instead of bitmaps. This means that scaling to very small devices like smartphones is quite simple to achieve.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (3, Informative)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139679)

There are many great advantages of KDE, such as platform independence and SVG rendering like you mentioned.

Again, I suggested the problem isn't the features.

As for making KDE 4 operate or look like OS X or Vista, that depends how much control we have over the interface. My fear/concern is that given recent discussions and posts with Aaron suggest we will have less control.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (2, Insightful)

lbbros (900904) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140059)

It's not the case. You forget that an entire desktop shell has been rewritten from scratch, so it's not like all the features will appear magically. For me, it's already possible to do more than what I used to do with 3.5.x desktops.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24140823)

Have a look at comment 85 from the link you posted.
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=154535

You say this discussion suggests Aaron is trying to give users less control but he has designed plasma in a way that means it is not possible for him to have this ultimate control and this is intentional.

Plasma is flexible enough that you can implement your own desktop containment without the corner icon but the current default one is being designed with things like touch screens in mind where you can't right click to configure things. The icons presence is therefore required and people who don't like it will be able to choose a containment without it. More control!

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (2, Insightful)

Hatta (162192) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140357)

The other thing great about KDE4 is that it is done with SVG instead of bitmaps. This means that scaling to very small devices like smartphones is quite simple to achieve.

SVG isn't magic. There's only so far you can scale a given design down before you start to get aliasing.

Vector graphics always look great when scaled up, scaling down is a trickier affair. You have to design your graphics in advance to look good when scaled down, i.e. not using small details or text that would get lost when scaled down.

If you have to design icons specifically for low resolutions anyway, why not just provide a bitmap version? It'll run faster that way.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (3, Interesting)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140513)

I believe KDE uses a bitmap cache of pre-scaled SVG icons.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (4, Insightful)

ArcherB (796902) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139599)

I see your $0.02 and raise you a nickel.

My problem with KDE 4 is that I can't drag a box over several desktop to select multiple desktop icons. That drives me nuts!

My problem with Gnome is the fact that I can't adjust the screen saver properties without some ugly hack.

I know, these are minor issues, but annoying nonetheless. And your post was probably the nickel's worth anyway.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (2, Insightful)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139717)

Community software should mean that people can easily post bug reports and get issues like these addressed.

Open a bug for each issue and hopefully they will be addressed.

I think it is beneficial to the entire community when people report these things.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (4, Insightful)

ArcherB (796902) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139769)

Community software should mean that people can easily post bug reports and get issues like these addressed.

Open a bug for each issue and hopefully they will be addressed.

I think it is beneficial to the entire community when people report these things.

The problem is that these don't appear to be bugs, but design choices. I believe that the gnome developers intentionally removed the option to configure each of the different screen savers and that the KDE dev's set up their horrid desktop icon system by design.

What's to file?

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (2, Informative)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139853)

The KDE 4.0 icon fiasco is going out the window. In KDE 4.1, you have a folder view applet on your desktop that operates largely like a file manager window. You can change the folder it views, and even filter it with smart searches, and Nepomuk meta-data.

I hate having the applet on my desktop, but in the future supposedly it will be the desktop, and support themeing/wallpapers, etc.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (5, Informative)

ArcherB (796902) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139937)

Community software should mean that people can easily post bug reports and get issues like these addressed.

Open a bug for each issue and hopefully they will be addressed.

I think it is beneficial to the entire community when people report these things.

Here is the GNome developer response [gnome.org] to the screensaver thingie:

Comment #1 from William Jon McCann (gnome-screensaver developer, points: 22)
2005-09-19 13:32 UTC [reply]

I don't have any plans to support this. My view is that any screensaver theme
that requires configuration is inherently broken.

Is developer arrogance a bug or a feature?

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (2, Funny)

geminidomino (614729) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140285)

Is developer arrogance a bug or a feature?

A bug, outside of the Redmond and Cupertino areas.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (4, Informative)

Knuckles (8964) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140581)

Here is the GNome developer response [gnome.org] to the screensaver thingie:

Is this a troll or do you suffer from short attention span? This was his first comment, but the discussion on bugzilla was very long, and further down he identified technical issues that prevent this from being done sanely atm, wrote an FAQ on the matter, asked for help from those who see this feature, and so on. Anyone interest in the issue is well-advised not to rely on the parent but read the discussion themselves.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (2, Insightful)

ArcherB (796902) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140813)

Here is the GNome developer response [gnome.org] to the screensaver thingie:

Is this a troll or do you suffer from short attention span? This was his first comment, but the discussion on bugzilla was very long, and further down he identified technical issues that prevent this from being done sanely atm, wrote an FAQ on the matter, asked for help from those who see this feature, and so on.

Right, after about 20 posts of people ragging on him. The fact remains that he tried to weasel his way out by saying that it shouldn't have to be done because it was hard to do. I bet it is hard. That's why I'm not a programmer, much less a maintainer. If he has a problem with what the people using the product want, he should hand it off to someone who gives a damn. (not to mean that I don't appreciate his efforts, but he chose to be the maintainer for a reason.)

Anyone interest in the issue is well-advised not to rely on the parent but read the discussion themselves.

Good idea. If only had posted a link or something...

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24139689)

On top of that you have Aaron Segio now suggesting that users should have less control over configuration, fewer choices, and saying that end users are dumb. He also has suggested repeatedly lately that if you're not a coder, then you can't comment on UI issues.
Can you prove those 2 statements? Can you provide links to statements where he says that?

From my use of KDE 4.1, I, a user, have the exact same configuration menu in konqueror that I used to have, and I now have dolphin, with simpler configuration, that has been added which I can use standalone, or along konqueror or not.
As a user, it seems I now have more choice.

Plasmoid seems a little raw right now, but I have the feeling they are the equivalent of firefox extensions.
Basically, they are putting the desktop in the hand of the users. You will have extension, sorry, plasmoid, whith little or no configuration, and some some with heavy configuration and you will just choose and build your own personnal desktop. Just like firefox with its extensions.
So your comment about them dumbing down the desktop or removing it from the users hand is pretty much out of the picture, it's quite the opposite.

As for aseigo, I follow his blog and I can't remember him saying users can't comment on UI issues. If you'd give links to that than I might find your comment informative, right now, it seems mostly flamebait.
(My bet is that he said that as long as the underlying technology is not ready, the discussion about with or without 'insert your preferred desktop item or usability issue' are irrelevant.)

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (1, Flamebait)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139789)

http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=154535 [kde.org]

Read his blog. (Oh wait, you can't. He took it down, but check for archived versions!)

And read dot.kde.org and you'll see a plethora of these comments lately from him.

That bug is a good source of many such comments however.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (3, Informative)

Chang (2714) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140895)

His blog was unavailable for a while but it came back online several days ago.

http://aseigo.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (3, Insightful)

Fri13 (963421) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140805)

Can you prove those 2 statements? Can you provide links to statements where he says that?

You didn't ask that from me but what kind impression I have had from what Aaron has told, is that KDE4 is coming smarter, so there is no need for configurations, because KDE will notice what user wants and leave more easier working enviroment for user when.

Feature and Configuration are two different things.

KDE has lots of features and lots of configurations. Gnome has few features and even less configurations. Now KDE4 will move kde to direction that there will be lots of features but much less configurations. Default look will be very simple and clean so all "dumb" gnome users can use kde easily but power user who knows what wants, can turn things ON and customize whole enviroment.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24139715)

1. There is no problem with KDE 4
2. If you need stability and features you have 3.5.9
3. 4.0.x is starting from scratch. This is not incremental
4. Please do not blame Aaron - if you did not follow kde-devel. He never said he will give "less control over configuration". Stop it now.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6642148224800885420 [google.com]
5. Lastly, just wait. All and more features than 3.x series _will_ come to 4.x series.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139821)

On top of that you have Aaron Segio now suggesting that users should have less control over configuration, fewer choices, and saying that end users are dumb. He also has suggested repeatedly lately that if you're not a coder, then you can't comment on UI issues.

I agree with the first 1/2 of his statement, but not at all about the last part.. Non coders are the BEST ones to comment about UI usability. Without users, you don't have any UI coding to do.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (5, Informative)

tminos (238474) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139833)

this is one reason why I continue to use gnome or xfce instead of the new KDE. Of all things they removed one feature most important to me:

the ability to change tabs in konsole by pressing alt-# (ie, alt-1 = go to tab 1, alt-2 to tab 2 etc.)

I asked in the #kde-devel channel if it was removed intentionally or just hadn't been re-added. Aaron's first response was to claim I must not use a terminal much (I'm a systems admin and programmer, I spend nearly all day in a terminal.) He then said that terminal programs should bind as few keys as possible because terminal programs have already assumed nearly all possibly combinations.

I offered a patch that would re-insert them as an option -- not enabled by default but there for people that decided they wanted to set it. It was turned down.

Fuck it all, KDE is going the same way GNOME did. I'll stick with vim, mutt, and move back to freaking wmaker or fvwm if it's the only way to have a system that doesn't treat me like I'm five years old.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (1)

vurian (645456) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140905)

I wouldnt'be able to live if konsole grabbed alt-n -- I need those keycombinations for screen :-). Shift-arrow works fine for me.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (3, Insightful)

mi (197448) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139889)

On top of that you have Aaron Segio now suggesting that users should have less control over configuration, fewer choices, and saying that end users are dumb.

Of course, we are dumb... We want KMail to preserve the HTML-layout of the original [kde.org] , when we are replying to or forwarding it. The enlightened developers have been telling us for years, how stupid [kde.org] it is, but we continue to foolishly insist.

If that's not valid grounds for contempt towards users, I don't know, what is.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (2, Insightful)

Randle_Revar (229304) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139893)

On top of that you have Aaron Segio now suggesting that users should have less control over configuration, fewer choices, and saying that end users are dumb. He also has suggested repeatedly lately that if you're not a coder, then you can't comment on UI issues.

Citation needed

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140555)

Check a few posts up.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (1)

lbbros (900904) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140039)

On top of that you have Aaron Segio now suggesting that users should have less control over configuration, fewer choices, and saying that end users are dumb.

Would you please stop posting FUD? And for goodness' sake, his last name is Seigo, not Segio.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24140123)

That's some harsh words against Aaron. I suspect its your interpretation of events though, care to back your words up with some links? I would be interested to read them and come to my own conclusions.

I'm no plasma expert but my feeling for the goals are to make a more flexible framework for implementing elements of the desktop such that the 3.5.x desktop features can be re-implemented using a subset of the plasma features i.e. it can do all of 3.5.X and more.

The problem as I see it is that it takes time to implement the features allowing creation of the old desktop and people want KDE4 NOW and bitch about lack of X feature from 3.5.x

I don't doubt that plasma will achieve this judging by recent progress but when you say it over promised and under delivered, in what time frame? The only stable version of KDE4 is 4.0.X and that was stated as not being ready for everyday use by KDE themselves . Its a bit harsh to say under delivered when we are still in 4.0 cycle.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140569)

Check a few posts up and I posted a link.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (3, Interesting)

Prototerm (762512) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140507)

I have two problems with KDE4, only one of which is due to the KDE people.

First, I believe the development team should have kept it in Beta until it was feature-complete. Feature complete, in my mind, is at minimum the feature set of 3.x. It shouldn't even be a release candidate until "done" and stable.

Second, distros should avoid including immature projects like KDE 4 until they *are* feature complete and stable. Yeah, Kubuntu, I'm looking at you!

Hopefully, the Gnome folks (and Ubuntu) will wait until everything's ready for prime time before releasing 3.0

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140671)

Check out openSUSE's builds of KDE 4.1, which are *MUCH* better than any other KDE 4 builds I've seen.

I still won't use it however. I just mix KDE 4 apps into my KDE 3 desktop.

Re:Problem with KDE 4 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24141017)

>First, I believe the development team should have kept it in Beta until it was feature-complete.
Feature complete, in my mind, is at minimum the feature set of 3.x. It shouldn't even be a release candidate until "done" and stable.

Please remember that developer are needed to develop the feature set. The early release of KDE4 was right. We got more than 100 additional aktiv developers with svn access. Without this developers, the speed of development would be mutch slower. Is this what you want?

>Second, distros should avoid including immature projects like KDE 4 until they *are* feature complete and stable. Yeah, Kubuntu, I'm looking at you!

You are looking in the wrong place. You need to look in the mirror. Kubuntu 8.4 released a Version with KDE 3.5.9. It is rocking stable and really useable.
Also, Kubuntu helped the KDE Community with releasing a KDE4 Version for the early adapters, who are to stubid to read or kind enough to help. Kubuntu is not responible for stupidity.

Content free article (5, Informative)

sundarvenkata (1214396) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139043)

The link leads to a tersely worded page which captures the entire essence of the plans for GTK+3.0 :) which in turn leads to another blog with a color scheme that threatens my corneal legerdemain.

let's wait and see (4, Informative)

C0vardeAn0nim0 (232451) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139191)

"but hopefully will avoid the problems that plagued KDE 4.0's release."

instead they're gonna have all sorts of their own problems. it happened before, it'll happen again.

all major projects have this kind of stuff when major releases come out the door. examples ?

MacOS X 10.0
Windows Vista
Gnome 2.0
Netscape 4.0
.
.
.

maybe it'll be a set of completely diferent problems. but they'll be there. murphy is unforgiven.

Re:let's wait and see (5, Funny)

bigstrat2003 (1058574) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140029)

murphy is unforgiven.

Damn straight he is... not one of us would ever forgive that fscker after all the trouble his stupid law has caused for us!

Re:let's wait and see (1)

C0vardeAn0nim0 (232451) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140595)

where are the grammar nazis when i need them ?

s/given/giving/

x.0 releases (1)

VON-MAN (621853) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139231)

"the Gnome team ... ... hopefully will avoid the problems that plagued KDE 4.0's release."

Let's hope so, and if /.ers could stop obsessing over release dates and numbers, that would be good as well.

KDE's footsteps? (5, Funny)

mweather (1089505) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139335)

Luckily for Gnome, when 3.0 ships missing a lot of features, nobody will notice.

Re:KDE's footsteps? (1)

onefriedrice (1171917) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139669)

Luckily for Gnome, when 3.0 ships missing a lot of features, nobody will notice.

Maybe this is a slashdot joke I missed out on (or perhaps just a bad joke), but if you're being serious.... why would nobody notice? You can't be suggesting that nobody uses Gnome since it's the desktop of Ubuntu, a rather popular desktop distro that you might have heard about.

Re:KDE's footsteps? (5, Insightful)

FlyingBishop (1293238) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139773)

I think he's implying that Gnome has no features.

Which, while not entirely true, is not entirely unfair.

Re:KDE's footsteps? (3, Interesting)

moosesocks (264553) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140679)

KDE3 was bloated to a fault, and had an unhealthy obsession with identical-looking blue toolbar icons. It was also due for an architectural revamp.

GNOME started going down the "less is more" minimalistic path a few years ago, encouraged by Apple's similar philosophy that seemed to go over well with consumers. Unfortunately, many feel that they stripped a bit too much out (still, I prefer this approach, and was a rabid Xfce [xfce.org] user for quite some time).

KDE4 on the other hand, doesn't feel like it was designed with a minimalistic philosophy in mind. Granted, there was a clear and commendable goal to cut out most of the cruft from KDE3, but it currently still feels a bit incomplete

Do you think that's a fair assesment?

Re:KDE's footsteps? (1)

realmolo (574068) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139777)

What he meant by "nobody will notice" is that Gnome is lacking so many features *already*.

I don't exactly agree with that, but that's the joke.

Re:KDE's footsteps? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24140361)

You can't expect an Ubuntu user to know such things.

Re:KDE's footsteps? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24139879)

It's because each Gnome release seems to provide fewer and fewer features as the software is (in some peoples' opinions over-)simplified.

Re:KDE's footsteps? (1)

Knuckles (8964) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140669)

It's because each Gnome release seems to provide fewer and fewer features .

Blatant lie or very misinformed.

Just fix the lag in drawing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24139455)

Let's hope they just get the basics right at last, and make the menus and widgets draw seamlessly, without visible artifacts. If they do that alone I'll be happy with GNOME 3.0..

Cool! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24139579)

Exciting!

Problems with KDE4? What problems?.. (4, Informative)

mi (197448) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139665)

will avoid the problems that plagued KDE 4.0's release.

I made the folly of installing KDE-4 on my mom's new computer (she had KDE-3.5.x before). There were no "problems". There was a total disaster.

The amount of features available in KDE-3 for years, that did not make it into KDE-4 is staggering... Add bugs to that.

And I was not entirely unprepared — I knew better, than to try KDE-4.0, when it came out with the enormous (and Google-sponsored [kde.org] ) hoopla. I waited for 4.0.2... You can't even move widgets around on your task-bar yet — that's "scheduled" for version 4.1!

The all-new "plasma"-desktop can't show you the contents of files in ~/Desktop/ — that's still "in the works". Showing the list of files themselves is buggy — every time you login, a new set of icons (one for each of your files) is added to the desktop.

And to think, that I was getting impatient with FreeBSD KDE-team [kde.org] for not upgrading the KDE-ports! These guys were simply protecting me, but no, I wouldn't listen... I installed the much tauted Kubuntu and paid the price (don't even get me started on Ubuntu itself)...

Re:Problems with KDE4? What problems?.. (1)

TerminaMorte (729622) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140225)

So you had less problems with FreeBSD on the desktop than Ubuntu? I must ask you, sir... do you live in bizarro world?

Re:Problems with KDE4? What problems?.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24140753)

Ever tried exotic hardware with Ubuntu?

FreeBSD is so stable and easy to use in comparison. It doesn't try to be "easy to use" and end up obscuring every single critical configuration option.

Re:Problems with KDE4? What problems?.. (1)

mi (197448) | more than 6 years ago | (#24141117)

So you had less problems with FreeBSD on the desktop than Ubuntu?

Yes, as a matter of fact. Although I admit, that most of the frustration was with the switch — for some reason, Ubuntu considers most single-byte encodings (such as KOI8-U [wikipedia.org] ) to be "obsolete" and forces UTF8 upon you.

This is a major pain for someone, who already has many files in the "obsolete" encoding and/or whose names contain it. Yes, you can add more encodings, but if you start using them, the GUI breaks and other things get subtly messed up.

Re:Problems with KDE4? What problems?.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24140317)

I'm acctually interested about your Ubuntu rant. I'm burning 8.04.1 CD right now. Not worth it?

Re:Problems with KDE4? What problems?.. (1)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 6 years ago | (#24141023)

Baseless. Ubuntu will give you Gnome, and Kubuntu gives you KDE3.5.

If you CHOOSE to download the KDE4 'edition' of Kubuntu, or install the relevant metapackages (you have to try, it won't be an accident) you get KDE4.

KDE4 is NOT ready for general-use, contrary to the 'release' statement. It should be considered beta or pre-release quality.

Re:Problems with KDE4? What problems?.. (4, Informative)

draugdel (1301987) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140659)

As far as I know KDE4.0 was never meant for the end user but for developers. I tried it once and told myself: "Looks promising but is not ready to use for me.[0]"

So I waited and at times looked a bit a the latest progress with packages from the svn trunk for my distribution. My impression is that the progress, that KDE4.0 to now made, is just amazing. I am currently using the svn packages more often than my old KDE3.5.9 install, simply because it is a very pleasant experience. I would have switched already, if it was not a "unstable"[1] version and I will definitly switch when 4.1 sees the light of the day.

So let's go on to your issues: Moving widgets in the panel (the task bar is only for displaying your applications) should have been added yesterday or so (according to a blog post at planetkde.org).

Showing the contents of ~/Desktop: The folderview can do that, but not only that. It can also display any folder (for instance on a remote machine as well). It will be able to show the results of nepomuk searches, but this is not ready yet. I for my part had never any icons on my old desktop, because, I think, it looks like I still have lot of work to do. Now I can easily display the folder(s) that I am currently working on and hide them when I am done. I must say, it is way better than the old system for me.

For launching applications, I never used icons (Keyboard > mouse for me) but used the old "Run command". Now there is krunner which is way better than the old system.

As another developer to the KDE team: I love what you are doing with KDE4 and I hope that you can keep the good work up.

[0] I am a developer as well.
[1] unstable as in not finished. I have not experienced lots of bugs, but instead it almost never crashes, which is quite impressive for this kind of packages (compiled directly from the latest source code).

Proper naming would go a long way. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24139685)

If they want to avoid KDE's mistakes, all they need to do is use "alpha", "beta" and so on instead of 3.0, 3.1 - like the rest of the world.

An Ode to the GNOME dialog box (5, Insightful)

sundarvenkata (1214396) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139807)

GNOME HCI guidelines are one of the best I know of. Following the HCI leads to surprisingly good physical and mental health. 1) Navigating the GNOME dialog box with just the keyboard provides a rejuvenating and rigorous finger and mental exercise at the same time. 2) The font choices make pupil dilation effortless 3) The occlusion of "OK/Cancel" in elongated dialog boxes make accepting/rejecting dialog boxes into a fun hideAndSeek activity.

Re:An Ode to the GNOME dialog box (1)

Fri13 (963421) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140855)

Please tell me how to navigate on those dialoges. I have tries so many times and everytime it just shows small filter window and does not do things what I have readed people's step-by-step instructions. Mayby I have missed lots of information :-/

Re:An Ode to the GNOME dialog box (1)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 6 years ago | (#24141069)

The parent was being sarcastic it appears...

Pledge to stick with unencumbered technology? (4, Insightful)

IGnatius T Foobar (4328) | more than 6 years ago | (#24139953)

What I would really like to see from the GNOME team is a pledge to keep the framework free of unencumbered technology. Specifically, this means we need them to promise that both the framework itself, and its core applications, will not be built with .NET (Mono).

Miguel de Icaza may enjoy appeasing Microsoft, but most of the Free World does not.

Re:Pledge to stick with unencumbered technology? (2, Insightful)

metamatic (202216) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140099)

That and they should rip out the Mono crap that's already part of the GNOME desktop. If they did that I might go back to GNOME, given the state of KDE 4.1.

(I finally switched from KDE to GNOME just in time for them to add Mono to GNOME, so I switched back.)

Re:Pledge to stick with unencumbered technology? (3, Insightful)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140817)

You could, you know, wait for them to finish KDE4. Nobody held a gun to your head and forbade you from using 3.5 did they?

These guys... (1)

th3rtythr33 (1191409) | more than 6 years ago | (#24140647)

Aren't these the guys who talked about how a 3.0 would be more trouble than improvement an was unnecessary (versus just continuing to work with the well established and stable 2.x). Their points were proven by KDE4's release, but now... here they go! Leave it to the bandwagon.

Based on mono? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24140743)

I seem to recall that Miguel announced (a while back mind you) that gnome 3.0 would be based on Mono...

Are we to believe this won't happen then?

A/C

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