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Citizens Spy On Big Brother

CmdrTaco posted more than 6 years ago | from the they-love-that dept.

Security 719

An anonymous reader writes "Citizens of the world are striking back at 24/7 state surveillance by pulling out their cameraphones and filming inept officials, deadly healthcare lapses and thuggish cops. So-called Sous-veillance is seeing more and more people posting damning footage of official misdemenours to sites such as YouTube to shame them into action." I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over.

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You wonder? (5, Informative)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417503)

"I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over."

Oh..that's simple...camera mysteriously gets dropped and smashed on the ground (probably while you are being slammed against the car), and you get charged first with obstructing justice...with more charges to follow later as they have time to think them up.

Re:You wonder? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24417601)

Yeah, like the guy who refused to give the cops the video footage of them coming to his door when he informed them that he had a camera and a tape and they arrested him and beat him? I mean, theres not much left to wonder about, welcome to Amerika.

Posted anonymous for obvious reasons.

Re:You wonder? (4, Insightful)

Duncan Blackthorne (1095849) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417793)

I see no reason why this person, AC or not, was modded down to -1 for his statements. It would have been nice if he'd've posted links citing actual examples, but he's not off-topic or off-base either.

Re:You wonder? (5, Informative)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417979)

"Yeah, like the guy who refused to give the cops the video footage of them coming to his door when he informed them that he had a camera and a tape and they arrested him and beat him?"

Yeah, I'm not sure why this was modded troll either...I mean, this story was published on Slashdot awhile back. Actually, there are two of them on that subject here at a home [slashdot.org] and here filming a car pullover [slashdot.org] .

Re:You wonder? (5, Interesting)

Phiros (991892) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417619)

That's why you use two cameras. One to point out that you are recording, and a hidden one to record the ensuing hijinks.

Re:You wonder? (1, Insightful)

Wiarumas (919682) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417623)

Oh..that's simple...camera mysteriously gets dropped and smashed on the ground (probably while you are being slammed against the car), and you get charged first with obstructing justice...with more charges to follow later as they have time to think them up.

What country are you from? I've had many encounters with the police before here in America and I have yet to experience any "excessive" force. I've seen it on TV with drug users and people who commit crimes, but I've never personally experienced anything negative other than a "hard ass" who gave me a speeding ticket even though I deserved it.

Re:You wonder? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24417697)

Because it hasn't happened to you, it never happens. Thanks for clearing that up.

Re:You wonder? (1, Insightful)

Wiarumas (919682) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418011)

Just because it does happen doesn't mean that every cop is a bad officer. Saying that you need cameras to film police officers so they don't mistreat you is the same discrimination that is imposed upon minorities from the authorities. It is a two way street.

Re:You wonder? (5, Insightful)

lordofwhee (1187719) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418099)

Except, you know, you can't kill a cop with a camera (unless you bludgeon him over the head with it, but even then).

Plus, the cops should have to act BETTER than most people, because, guess what, they're COPS. If that means they're on camera 24/7, then so be it. They signed up for it.

So where is the cop outrage? (5, Insightful)

FatSean (18753) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418143)

Why aren't the 'good cops' turning in their corrupt, violent and evil coworkers?

Sorry, until I see more exposure of bad cops from within their departments, I'm lumping the 'good cops' in with the bad cops.

Sympathizers you know? Kinda like how we bomb the houses of people who help Iraqi Insurgents, even if they aren't actually insurgents themselves.

Aiding and abetting the enemy: abuse of authority.

Re:You wonder? (1)

Smidge207 (1278042) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418041)

Hey...easy on him, WianR! He's just living in Solipsistic Land. :-)

=Smidge=

Re:You wonder? (4, Informative)

montyzooooma (853414) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417705)

It so rare... (1)

mi (197448) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417847)

It is so rare, that, when it happens, they put it on YouTube...

Re:It so rare... (4, Insightful)

TheRealMindChild (743925) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417945)

Actually, it's more like, if you are watching a cop beat the snot out of someone, excessively, for little to no reason, what do you think they will do when they see you filming them doing it? Most people are not willing to find out.

Re:It so rare... (1)

mi (197448) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418153)

if you are watching a cop beat the snot out of someone, excessively, for little to no reason

And your evidence of this happening often is?.. I know, I have not seen it happen in my 16 years in this country...

Re:You wonder? (4, Insightful)

Silver Sloth (770927) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417735)

Let me guess - you're white and middle class and live in a nice area. Wake up and smell the coffee. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Talk to anyone from a minority (black, gay, lefty...)

Re:You wonder? (3, Funny)

demonbug (309515) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417903)

Yeah, those damn cops are always going after the gay lefties. It's no wonder we've got such an enormous prison overcrowding problem here in California.

Re:You wonder? (5, Funny)

CaptSaltyJack (1275472) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418019)

I personally am tired of the discrimination against left-handed people.

Re:You wonder? (5, Funny)

Jason Levine (196982) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418139)

They're only jealous because we lefties are the only ones in our right minds.

Re:You wonder? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24417849)

I guess you have never been to Los Angeles.

Re:You wonder? (3, Interesting)

razorh (853659) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417855)

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/09/police.kill.dog/ [cnn.com]

It doesn't take much to become a police officer.

Re:You wonder? (1)

zippthorne (748122) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418137)

You know why we get the cops we get? 'Cause you all think you've got better things to do than policing.

Note: I, also, am not a police officer.

Re:You wonder? (4, Informative)

hahiss (696716) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417947)

Life is good when you don't know shit about the world, innit?

Here's just two examples (off the top of my head) from the U.S. of A. that made it into the national media:

http://www.drugpolicy.org/law/police/tulia/index.cfm [drugpolicy.org]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampart_Scandal [wikipedia.org]

Of course, none of those happened to you, so they probably didn't happen (let alone count) . . . .

Re:You wonder? (1, Informative)

Bomarc (306716) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417997)

Consider yourself lucky. I've had to deal with cops that committed perjury on the witness stand, threaten, fail to follow up on the with the most basic of calls (In one instance I had the information needed to detain a 'hacker' here in my own state, and the police refused to follow up); officers that won't take fundamental action....
I've had to deal with Judges that don't follow the law, and DA's that falsify information. (I've set a president in the state where a DA can present false information, which is objected to, and the defense is not permitted to rebut it)

Re:You wonder? (4, Insightful)

dkleinsc (563838) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418037)

Your first mistake is lumping all people who wear blue uniforms and carry a badge "the police". There are big differences between your local traffic cops and the police forces in L.A. and N.Y. Among other things, I highly doubt your local police have shot unarmed people from over 50 yards away, or beaten up protesters.

Your second mistake is thinking that the cops treat you and everyone else the same. You're probably white and relatively well off, and were pulled over wearing a nice button-down shirt and slacks. That makes cops think you're generally a law-abiding citizen, even if they're pulling you over because you broke the law. When less privileged people are pulled over, they're far more likely to be ordered from their car, patted down for weapons, have their trunk searched for drugs, etc.

Re:You wonder? (1)

mpapet (761907) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418157)

I'll restate what an AC said. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

When I was a student at a college that is neighbor to a particularly infamous suburb in Los Angeles, *many* of my classmates were repeatedly (legally) stopped and (legally) searched at all hours in this infamous city.

With that said, it's important to think narrowly about my comment. The same procedures would not have been tolerated in affluent Los Angeles, so it can probably be narrowed even further to precinct policies. Even within that precinct, I'm sure there were cops that would not do that kind of thing. Finally this was, in teenager terms, "a long time ago."

Re:You wonder? (1)

show me altoids (1183399) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417643)

I was crossing the border into Canada in Buffalo about 15 years ago and my buddy had his camcorder on. The Canadian border guard (or whatever they are called) politely asked him to turn it off. Nowadays, who knows.

Re:You wonder? (1)

4D6963 (933028) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417799)

Which makes me wonder where I can buy a spy camera for my car. I mean, if you want to film it when you get pulled over, that's what you want in your car. You also want that if ever you "get lucky" in your car. That being said I don't have a car and I never had much "luck" anyways.

Make it one with a fisheye lens by the way, or a movement tracker.

Re:You wonder? (5, Insightful)

Profane MuthaFucka (574406) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417679)

... and the still intact memory chip has a nice recording of the officer's boot, which turns out to be very helpful in securing a conviction for assault and his dismissal from the department, and from the society that he was supposed to protect.

Re:You wonder? (5, Informative)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417683)

Pretty much. Cops have a lot of leeway when it comes to knocking over your camera in the course of an arrest or ticket, especially at an event where there is already some misbehavior from the police. Try filming a protest where the cops start throwing tear gas; unless you have your camera affixed to a telescope and you're on a hill far away, chances are that a cop is gonna "firmly grasp" the arm holding the camera, and the camera will end up on the ground waiting to be destroyed. We had a protest a few months ago at my university that ended up like that; only one fragmented video escaped.

Re:You wonder? (5, Insightful)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417929)

chances are that a cop is gonna "firmly grasp" the arm holding the camera, and the camera will end up on the ground waiting to be destroyed. We had a protest a few months ago at my university that ended up like that; only one fragmented video escaped.

If it's a normal digital camera, try using a Micro-SD card in an adapter.
The chances are higher that the card will survive even if the camera is destroyed.

Re:You wonder? (-1, Troll)

Max Threshold (540114) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417707)

At what point do we acknowledge that the police are nothing more than organized, armed criminals, and start dealing with them as such?

Re:You wonder? (0, Troll)

Duncan Blackthorne (1095849) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417905)

That's a completely bullshit statement. Don't paint with a broad brush, damnit! Not ALL cops are violent assholes, but if we took your statement to heart then they would eventually all be forced into ACTING like violent assholes.

Re:You wonder? (2, Insightful)

cornercuttin (1199799) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418059)

i would love this. at 6'3", 300 lbs, knowing that i wouldn't have police to answer to and hold me accountable would be awesome. no more money. i will just let my fists make the payments.

Re:You wonder? (1)

BalmyBrute (1322643) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418151)

I dont know where you are living, but certainly not the US.

Re:You wonder? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24417753)

Please half of you guys never get out of the house let alone get pulled over!

Re:You wonder? (5, Informative)

mi (197448) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418067)

Oh..that's simple...camera mysteriously gets dropped and smashed on the ground

No. What's more likely is that the officer starts acting with utmost professionalism, smiles, and fines you for various things, with which he would not have bothered otherwise. He is also going to take his sweet time issuing the ticket(s) — especially if you commit another folly by indicating, that you are in a hurry. (12 years ago I did that, and the pig took 40 minutes to issue the citation.)

If it is illegal in your locale to record people without warning, put a notice about recording on your window — he is not going to notice it, but you'll be covered — do not bring it to his attention. In general, do not argue with the policemen. All arguments should happen in court.

Re:You wonder? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24418161)

Dallas SWAT has been raiding poker games. Drew Carey covered this at http://www.reason.tv/video/show/172.html [reason.tv] .

When one of the defendants subpoenaed copies of the video tapes made
of the raid -- the reality show "Dallas SWAT" had filmed it -- he was
told that no copies of the tapes existed. See http://www.theagitator.com/2007/04/20/tales-of-a-dallas-poker-raid/ [theagitator.com]

In Oceania, members of the Inner Party were allowed to turn off their
telescreens.

haha (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24417507)

trix are for kids mutherfucker!

Good! (4, Interesting)

truthsearch (249536) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417515)

This is great. I just hope people don't stop once it all is made illegal.

Good Luck (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24417523)

You might be considered a terrorist if you record the police. Wouldn't be the first time.

Nothing. (2, Funny)

a whoabot (706122) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417527)

Oh, I'm sure they won't care, when they searched for expectation of privacy on Google, they found out there was none [slashdot.org] .

Operating a (camera)phone while driving? (3, Interesting)

KlaymenDK (713149) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417549)

I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over.
I don't know where you're at, but over here it's illegal to use your (camera)phone while driving. If you're fiddling with your phone when the man steps up to your window, I'm sure he'll give you a bonus for it.

Re:Operating a (camera)phone while driving? (5, Insightful)

postbigbang (761081) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417985)

Not in my jurisdiction. Too bad about yours.

We barely have seatbelt laws here. Phone? Fine. Camera? Fine. Shotgun rack? Fine. Bought the shotgun at a gunshow with no ID? Fine.

Do a video at your own risk. However, only very rarely does a police officer respond negatively to an individual that is polite when pulled over, is sober, and doesn't provoke the officer. It's a self-fulfilling action to believe that police officers will react negatively; they're human and IMHO aren't going to react negatively without provocation. Then tell it to the judge. Or suffer the consequences of provocation.

When I was young I called cops pigs. Then I came to understand what cops have to put up with. Some are still way too brutal. But most are just trying to keep the peace. Traffic cops I have problems with, but I keep quiet and polite during a trafffic stop, then beat my tickets anyway and don't drive like a raving Type-A idiot. Others have different results.

Marge Simpson said it years ago (5, Funny)

ChrisCampbell47 (181542) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417553)

"The courts might not work anymore, but as long as everyone is videotaping everyone else, justice will be served."

Marge Simpson

Re:Marge Simpson said it years ago (1, Insightful)

infolib (618234) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417919)

"The courts might not work anymore, but as long as everyone is videotaping everyone else, justice will be served."

Very funny. But who was videotaping when it was decided how to award the no-bid contracts for the Iraq war? We're catching the small fish here...

In the UK (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24417555)

It is perfectly legal to record the police in a public area, right up until the point they charge you with something.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (4, Insightful)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417567)

Who watches the watchers? The point becomes moot when everyone is a watcher.

Re:Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (1)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417781)

Who watches the watchers? The point becomes moot when everyone is a watcher.

What, exactly, point is that?

Surveillance? Law-breaking? Law-abiding? Privacy? Secrecy? Good only for show? Evil divorced from shame?

Re:Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (4, Informative)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418129)

The original idea was Plato; he posited a social class of people in his ideal Republic who would guard over the regular citizens. He had ideas of trying to inculcate in them a sort of high-minded ideal of service which would keep them from being corrupt; even at the time it was considered to be a bit naive.

The latin quote is from Juvenal; a character in one of his satires was talking about hiring people to guard the chastity of his wife (daughter? can't remember), and stressing out because he was sure that she would put out for her guards first, so he'd need a second set of guards to watch the first guards, and so forth.

The problem is always the same; we rely on the guardians to be self-policing, and it doesn't always work. But when you open up the possibility of everyone stepping up and taking some of the burden of watching the watchers, it becomes possible to sidestep the problem. The watchers are being watched by the watched, in effect being policed by the people they are policing.

Re:Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (1)

gwayne (306174) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417941)

The Bee Watcher-Watcher watched the Bee Watcher. He didn't watch well. So another Hawtch-Hawtcher had to come in as a Watch-Watcher-Watcher!

And today all the Hawtchers who live in Hawtch-Hawtch are watching on Watch-Watcher-Watchering-Watch, Watch-Watching the Watcher who's watching that bee.

You're not a Hawtch-Watcher. You're lucky, you see!!!

-- Seuss

Re:Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (1)

coolsnowmen (695297) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418117)

Who watches the watchers? The point becomes moot when everyone is a watcher.

Trying to resist.
But are you just testing the boundaries of Godwin's law?

Take care to (4, Interesting)

FeatureBug (158235) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417571)

Use a hidden camera - a really small "bullet" camera. If nobody can see the camera, nobody can talk about it, nobody can demand you stop using it, nobody can demand destruction of the footage. Or, use a wireless bullet camera to broadcast the footage to a separate location where the recorder is based. Then, if the camera is found, the recording may not be.

Citizens Spy ... (1)

queldor (1184789) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417575)

On Big Brother Spy On Citizens Spy On Big Brother ... Ah, The never ending cycle of life.

How does one publicly "spy"? (1)

ConstableBrew (1335195) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417577)

How can one be a spy when the recording is being done openly?

Uh... (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24417579)

I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over.

Chances are, they'll pull shit on you because, notoriously, they don't seem to like cameras outside of their "control". Look at all those cases of people getting arrested and/or harassed for videotapping, or otherwise recording cops. "Violation of Federal Wiretapping Laws" sound familiar? One fscked up system we got here.

Re:Uh... (3, Insightful)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417745)

When you have one guy and one camera this is a possibility, but when you have a situation where there are dozens of cameras...

Even now most cell phones do video. Think what it will be like in 10 years. Look at what services like YouTube have done to peoples reflexive camera response; you have the camera, and you have a public forum to air the footage, so you whip that camera out at the least provokation, at the mere possibility that you might see something worth recording.

The government has a tiny fraction of the recording resources of the population, and they have more and more dangerous secrets. Who has the most to be afraid of in this situation?

Depends on the cop (5, Informative)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417585)

I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over.

Almost all of them will ask you to stop recording.
Some will physically block the camera.
Very few will try to take your camera from you.

Police (and security guards) will do this with varying levels of anger and threats.

The only two things that matter are:
1. You are on public property
2. You are not filming/photographing something you legally cannot (like a port or inside a mall)

Re:Depends on the cop (3, Interesting)

beezhive (827703) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417827)

I'm fairly sure that you're legally allowed to photograph/film inside a mall, but the mall owners/security are legally allowed to make you stop/kick you out for doing so.

Re:Depends on the cop (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24417845)

Or you're stopped by police in Pennsylvania, where it is illegal to record them. Although as I recall, this law was enforced in a traffic stop in Mechanicsburg, PA and it was being appealed to test the law. Not sure if the state dropped the recording charge to avoid the appeal. Which is a brilliant strategy; they get you to stop the recording at a legal stop because the law says so, when you try to get rid of that law, the drop the charges, you lose standing, and the law remains. I'm sure some lawyer can tell me why this doesn't work, but I seem to recall reading it in the newspaper that way.

Re:Depends on the cop (3, Informative)

Tim C (15259) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417867)

Exactly. Here in the UK there are a couple of reality TV shows that follow a team of police around, filming them as they go about their duties.

From time to time someone they're dealing with will demand that the cameraman stop filming, and the response is always along the following lines:

"He can film what he likes, we're in public"

Well, then that surely applies both ways, no?

Re:Depends on the cop (5, Insightful)

Speare (84249) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417923)

2. You are not filming/photographing something you legally cannot (like a port or inside a mall)

In the USA at least, there's no legal framework that bans filming inside shopping malls. There is simply a legal framework that allows the private owners of the mall to make rules dictating whatever behavior they like or not, and if as a guest you do not comply with these rules, you must leave. If you do not leave when requested by any private owner, whether following their rules or not, you can be reported and arrested/ticketed by police for trespassing. In any case, the private owners cannot (1) take your equipment, (2) delete your pictures, (3) force you to do anything but leave the premises.

Personally, I think that since most shopping malls get huge tax incentives and other public funding, they should be held to certain accessibility and public use laws. However, that's rarely the case, and the private owners can enjoy this micro-fief in which to control their "guests" at their whim. If you don't like it, shop elsewhere.

And lastly, if a police officer ever asks you to delete a photograph, follow the ACLU bust guidelines. "Am I under arrest, or am I free to go?" Since a photograph is copyright-protected simply through the act of creation, destruction of a photograph is (1) destruction of your personal property, and (2) destruction of legal evidence. The cop needs to be reminded as gently as possible that there are two options and that you know this: they arrest you (securing all evidence safely) or wave goodbye.

Re:Depends on the cop (4, Insightful)

Angst Badger (8636) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418103)

"Depends on the cop" is right. Considering the disparity in power, you should think very carefully about the stakes before you make a cop aware that you are recording his or her actions. At the very least, it will piss them off, and pissed off cops are nothing you want to deal with. If you're just being pulled over for speeding (and you're white and sober), just being pleasant and respectful (read: kissing a little ass) will go a long way.

Mind you, I think it's a good thing for citizens to videotape police actions. But cops are dangerous and angry cops are even more dangerous, and you shouldn't play with that kind of danger. Bear in mind the number of occasions that cops have been videotaped beating the holy living hell out of somebody and then gotten off scot-free. If you're going to take on the system, don't do it casually. By all means, if you see injustice, take it on -- but do so with forethought and a careful consideration of the risks you expose yourself to. It's not a game, and the consequences can be pretty serious. Choose your battles wisely.

The short version: If your main motivation is to be an annoying wiseass, start a blog instead.

Re:Depends on the cop (4, Interesting)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418159)

It will also depend on the state. In some states recording video is totally legal but audio requires permission.
I have a brother in law that is a police officer and a good friend that is one also.
The amount of crap they have to take is amazing.
My brother in law as called out on a call because of "Pinching". I don't mean some stealing but two women at a Christmas sale started to pinch one another!
He also had to deal with a man that was trying to commit suicide by cop. He tired to kill himself and my brother in law stopped him. The guy then sued the police because he suffered emotional trauma when my BIL tackled him and took away the gun.
Sorry folks but the vast majority of the police offers I have had dealing with have been just normal people doing a crappy job the best that they can.
My brother in law is in trouble with the town officials because he refused to discipline an officer under him.
What did the cop do? Well during an armed robbery being committed by a minor the cop told the kid with the gun too "Drop the f'ing gun".
The officer was going to be suspended for using foul language in front of a minor. A minor with a gun holding up a store mind you but still a minor.

Now consider all of history (4, Insightful)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417605)

Everyone the authorities swore did something wrong.

And it gets worse- humans actively remap their memories to make them feel better. 10 years after these incidents, the police probably really DO believe their initial lies.

I've seen it in others and I've seen it in myself and I'm more careful of it than most (or at least I remember that I am! ;) )

Police should be required to video tape everything they do and lack of video evidence should be a strong case against them.

People (not just police) have been shown to lie a lot more than we used to think. We need to change our systems of justice to fit reality.

Re:Now consider all of history (1)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417989)

And it gets worse- humans actively remap their memories to make them feel better. 10 years after these incidents, the police probably really DO believe their initial lies.

More like 10 years after the events the police have forgotten WTF happened and will rely on their written notes.

Police should be required to video tape everything they do and lack of video evidence should be a strong case against them.

This I can agree with in principle, but what do you do about undercover cops and all those various other similarly sensitive situations?

don't inform the cop you're recording him. (5, Informative)

jgaynor (205453) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417617)

"I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over."

Beats me, but apparently it's more fun (and career-lethal) to film him without notification [liveleak.com] .

Re:don't inform the cop you're recording him. (5, Funny)

daveatneowindotnet (1309197) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417763)

<i>Beats me</i>

What's funny is at first I assumed your were answering the question as opposed to admitting ignorance.

Re:don't inform the cop you're recording him. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24417871)

Beats me

What's funny is at first I assumed your were answering the question as opposed to admitting ignorance.

In Putinist Russia, you break law.
In Soviet America, law breaks you.

What a country :)

Re: I wonder what happens... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24417641)

Given internet anecdotes, I'd imagine you'd wind up with all your videos and photos deleted at best. At worst you wind up with a broken cell phone and a trip down at the station house.

There are exceptions to this, even the vast majority of cops might have no problem (you usually only hear the instances where they do have a problem)

Chances are it's best not to inform them. I sincerely doubt it's against the law to record them without their knowledge in such a situation.

Don't record audio in Pennsylvania (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24417659)

It's illegal to record audio in Pennsylvania without the permission of everyone involved. A car with two people was pulled over. The policeman noticed the passenger was running his video camera and asked the passenger if he was recording audio as well as video. The passenger was arrested.

what would a cop do? (1)

goffster (1104287) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417685)

Take your camera run over it with a car.
"oops, sorry about your phone, perhaps
you should be more careful".

then you take your real camera to court.

Re:what would a cop do? (1)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417951)

Yea, that's going to be real effective. Do you know how tough [cnet.com] modern memory cards are?

Anything that will destroy a card will be extremely hard to pass off as an accident by a cop. "...The subject was being belligerent so I took his camera away from him, and then I accidentally dropped it, stomped on it for a few minutes, ran over it with my car, then set it on fire. Accidentally."

That's not how its supposed to be (2, Funny)

koafc (718334) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417689)

If you're spying on Big Brother, you're doing it wrong.

illegal in some states to do that (4, Informative)

sckeener (137243) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417695)

In some states it is illegal to film a government official.

Not that it will help them once it gets on youtube, but first you have to get it on youtube and not confiscated by the police.

What would you do if you filmed a cop beating someone and they asked for the video camera? If you answered anything but give the camera over, expect to be in pain and most likely jail.

Your Legislators At Work (2, Insightful)

strelitsa (724743) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417723)

I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over.

A whole bunch of new laws get passed making it illegal for reasons of public servant safety to take video of any police officer in the performance of his duties. I suspect that we'll also see the first exception to the laws against jamming cell phones being made for public safety types as well. Can't have those evulll hax0rs using the Intertubes to commit identify theft against our Men In Blue, can we?

Shooting back (4, Interesting)

Eunuchswear (210685) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417725)

Wonder why they didn't mention Shooting Back [btselem.org] ?

OMG dystopia! (-1, Troll)

4D6963 (933028) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417727)

Citizens of the world are striking back at 24/7 state surveillance

Congratulations, I couldn't have worded this to make it sound more like we're actually living in a futuristic dystopian society in which the whole world (also known by the aliens as "the USA") is oppressed by a tyrannic regime out of control that puts cameras in your toilets.

I too love to make reality sound like an apocalyptic fantasy, but I could use keeping that shit off the summary. Cue all the "but the government already listens to all your phone calls" replies.

filming the cops (1)

gibbsjoh (186795) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417729)

UK comedian/activist Mark Thomas had some fun with the Met Police (London) video surveillance team:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-La714aW4U4 [youtube.com]

Starts at 0:54 after annoying intro.

Anybody remember Rodney King (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24417737)

If a cop lies in court, he will get away with it unless you have ironclad proof of it. One good video, even if it doesn't result in the cop going to jail, can really stir up public indignation and put the heat where it needs to be put.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King [wikipedia.org]

Rodney Glen King (born April 2, 1965 in Sacramento, California) is an African-American taxi driver who, in 1991, was stopped and then beaten by Los Angeles Police Department officers (Laurence Powell, Timothy Wind, Theodore Briseno and Sergeant Stacey Koon) after being chased for speeding. A bystander, George Holliday, videotaped much of the event from a distance. Part of the video was broadcast around the world and shows four LA police officers restraining and repeatedly striking a black man, while four to six other officers stand by.[1] There is no part of the tape that shows Mr. King attacking the officers, as some have claimed.[2] King had also been tasered by the officers.[3][4]

The resulting public outrage raised tensions between the black community and the LAPD, and increased anger over police brutality and issues such as unemployment, racial tension, and poverty in the black community of South Central Los Angeles. The four officers were tried in a state court for using excessive force, but were acquitted. The announcement of the acquittals sparked the 1992 Los Angeles riots.

The other example that immediately springs to mind is the guy getting tasered to death at the Vancouver airport. That may have turned the tide toward preventing every cop from getting a taser. Now the public is really sensitive and taser stories get front page coverage.

constant and ubiquitous (1)

Paradise Pete (33184) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417743)


The day will come when everyone has a camera attached to them, recording every moment of their lives.
The ramifications will be both amazing and frightening. Fewer disagreements about what was said or what happened. Your life's memories available for replay. Less crime. More overlords.

I just learned how to use my cell phone camera, (1)

LM741N (258038) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417771)

and its been one and one half years since they turned off my service for being a deadbeat- which had earlier led to me selling my real camera in order to pay for the last couple of months. You know it doesn't take half bad pictures, but what baffles me is where did they put the tripod mount?

When the cop pulls you over (1)

Van Cutter Romney (973766) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417803)

I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over.

He says, "Have a good day, sir!" and writes you a fine for $500.

Dash Cams? (1)

The Moof (859402) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417805)

I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over.
I'm going to go with "a bunch of the usual" since alot of squad cars have dashboard cameras now.

Don't wonder (2, Interesting)

MikeRT (947531) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417817)

Just look it up...

I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over.

Chances are it ends up like one of dozens upon dozens of cases out there, well publicized in the media, of cops abusing the hell out of people who record their actions. Doubly likely now since you're their target (unlike in most cases with camera-related incidents), and are acting in a f#$% you way toward them.

I've thought about buying one of these AIPTek camcorders [amazon.com] . The things aren't half bad and would be ridiculously easy to carry around in public in case you ever had a good video opportunity.

NYC (0)

AutopsyReport (856852) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417839)

I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over.

Not quite the same situation, but my fiance was in NYC recently and around midnight, stumbling around drunk, her and her sisters came across a cop sleeping in his car. Thinking it was funny, they snapped a few pictures with her phone. What they didn't notice was two other police on foot patrol who saw the girls taking pictures. They came over and forced my fiance to hand over her phone over so they could delete the pictures. The two cops then woke up the sleeping one and reminded him to get back to work.

Not a really interesting story but it's proof that with some intimidation, big brother can force you hand over your legal surveillance footage.

Probably this... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24417851)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC7b9zLlK_4&feature=related

I tried this - And was searched as a terrorist (5, Interesting)

gotw (239699) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417863)

I was catching a bus from Walthamstow Bus Station, part of a busy transport interchange in East London. On my way I saw the police kicking the living crap out of someone. I went up to start filming, and was told by a "Community Support" [wikipedia.org] officer not to take pictures. I asked what law I was violating, and was met with the witty answer of "the law that says you can't film that over there". Right then. Seeing no point in continuing this conversation while the man continued to be smashed around by the Metropolitan Police, I went to the other side of a toughened glass barrier, stood on some chairs and started filming from there. It was at this point that I was grabbed by two officers and stopped and searched under the terrorism act, 2004. Unfortunately, as I shut the shutter on my K800i, all footage was lost :(

They're actually allowed to arbitrarily search anyone in London under this law, arbitrarily, as it's designated a zone of terrorist threat or somesuch. The mistake the officer searching me (whos full details I do have) claimed that I had been filming covertly. Standing on a chair holding a camera above my head, I'd not felt this to be covert, so I submitted the "stop and account" slip to the Independent Police Complaints Commission, who handed the investigation back to the local force, who stalled the investigation for long enough that the CCTV had been erased!

The rest is history, I'm afraid. There are wranglings going on with my MP regarding this, but should I be in such a position again I'll be damn sure to make certain that the footage is saved.

rodney king proved this in 1991 (4, Insightful)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417907)

citizens with cameras is an idea that destroys the outdated orwellian dystopian fantasy so many posit as their philosophical starting point when evaluating trends in the modern world

"big brother" as a viable concept is dead. "1984" is pure fiction. it will never come to pass. the citizens merely use the government's own tactics and technology against them

long live "little brother"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King [wikipedia.org]

Citizenship: [Definition needed] (1)

andphi (899406) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417913)

FTFA:

"Sous-veillance might transform political engagement due to its ease of use, by engaging even the time-poor majority and extending citizenship beyond the usual special interest groups."

Now, what definition of 'Citizenship' is the group using? Are they using it as a code-word for enfranchisement? I'm very confused.

What is the world coming to? (0, Troll)

kalirion (728907) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417933)

What is the world coming to when our hardworking police men and women can't beat up innocent civilians and charge them with assault without the fear of some scumbag with a camera letting the whole world know the truth?

if only... (1, Insightful)

cornercuttin (1199799) | more than 6 years ago | (#24417959)

busting your average "joe blow" cop won't do anything. another will just take his place.

now if we could use cameras to track union officials and political party advisors and administration officials, we would really have something.

What happens when you watch the watchmen. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24417991)

"I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over."

Well, the cops I know pull out their own cameras and start recording you, your car/property and may inquire more into the situation. This tends to make the citizen even more nervous since they are already being approached by a police officer.

Recording anyone while on the job makes someone nervous, being recorded when pulled over by a police officer makes anyone nervous. Police officers don't like being recorded any more than the citizens.

KCMO-biaatch (1, Interesting)

Jizzbug (101250) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418023)

I was once hanging out on a front porch of a friend's house. We saw a cop pull up and park down the street, and he started pulling over and questioning every car that drove by. So my friend Patrick ran in side and grabbed a broken camcorder and stood in his front yard aiming the defunct camcorder at the cop until he got paranoid and left (which didn't take too long).

This happened several years ago when we were making a political broadsheet newspaper called The Fourth Estate, at the time we were publicizing the killing of black kids by cops in Kansas City, KS. We got KCKPD to change their escalation of violence procedures, and we forced Nick Tomasic, the D.A. of Wyandotte County for 32 years, to resign for exonerating police officers without investigations into their killings. After all the town hall meetings of angry black folk in the basement of churches questioning local government officials about the killings (with KBI, Chief of Police, Mayor's council, and community representatives on the panel), and after people were forced to resign and retire, we got a few visits from local mobster-types, and we were told straight-up, "There's plenty of dirt in Kansas City to write about, you've focused enough light on KCK, you're done writing about Strawberry Hill."

So we closed the newspaper and opened a multi-purpose all-ages club called The Stray Cat; but, of course, another gangster crime family (operating as the Cordish Company) came in and condemned our historic 3-story 100-year-old building (built by D.D. Swearengen, a Texas cattle rancher tied to Ellis Albert Swearengen) to make way for The Sprint Center Arena and the Kansas City Live! (white-)Power & Light(-skin) entertainment district.

The Smaller Cameras Get (2, Insightful)

thomas.galvin (551471) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418057)

The smaller cameras get, the more common this is going to become.

Security guards and such get all bent out of shape if you try to take a picture inside of a mall. Cops get all bent out of shape when you record them being cops. But when the camera is so small that it can't be easily spotted...

Seussveillance (5, Funny)

Kamineko (851857) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418123)

Forget Sousveillance, you want Seussveillance. You have to wear a big long stripey jumper and speak in rhymes.

'Excuse me officer, would you mind,
would I be fined, maligned or confined,
if I were to tape your daily grind?

Sir, I'd like to believe,
that you and me we've
both come to perceive
That your job affords you - the responsibility to be true!

(I couldn't conceive of a way you'd
deceive me my friend, aggreive or bereave!)

A hasty repreive!; My hypothetical weave
does you an injustice. (And speaking of justice)

Enough of confession: let's return to my question.
I got impression of obsession with oppression.
Is this a true fact, or idle digression?
Would recording your good self be found a transgression?

Am I a free man?

or need I grab my tape, my cape and escape?'

Filming A Copy (1)

jeremiahbell (522050) | more than 6 years ago | (#24418149)

I filmed a copy by Rock Springs, Wyoming who pulled over my buddy. He was as nice as could be. It was "Yes, sir. Thank you sir. How are you today sir?" I even started laughing and said "He's gotta be nice now", but he didn't even respond. So basically it was like any traffic stop, except the copy was nicer than usual, but he did everything by the book and ticket us for exactly how much over we were instead of giving us a few mph brake as they usually do.
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