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Debian's Testing Branch Nears Completion

timothy posted more than 5 years ago | from the apt-remains-a-fantastic-argument dept.

Debian 216

DeviceGuru writes "With Debian Lenny (aka 'testing') poised to displace Etch as the popular Linux distribution's 'stable' branch possibly as soon as next month, blogger Rick Lehrbaum loaded the latest preview (beta 2) of Lenny's KDE CD image onto an available Thinkpad, and took it for a spin. How's it coming along? After detailing a handful of issues — and offering solutions for each (except Bluetooth support) — he concludes: 'Other than the need for a few hacks and fixes, my main complaint with it is its inclusion of way too many of KDE's rich set of applications, such as games, tools, etc.' From the looks of it, looks like Lenny might be the new 'Debian stable' soon!"

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216 comments

Debian (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24610325)

Can suck my dick.

Actually, no. (5, Funny)

PC and Sony Fanboy (1248258) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610349)

Like ubuntu, it is impossible for it to provide fellatio. As I understand it, you generally have to pay for that sort of service, and linux is (mostly) free.

Re:Actually, no. (5, Funny)

n1000 (1051754) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610517)

Debian user here. What's fellatio?

Re:Actually, no. (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24610559)

Ask your girlfriend. Ahhh, nevermind.

Don't forget... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24611063)

...to pay your $699 licensing fee you cock smoking teabaggers!

Re:Don't forget... (-1, Troll)

hdparm (575302) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611743)

Oh come on mods, don't blow the unique opportunity to make this rather annoying troll +5,Funny.

Re:Actually, no. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24610845)

What's fellatio?

It's a type of spork.

You should read the article. (0, Offtopic)

twitter (104583) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610747)

Add âoecontrib non-freeâ at the end of each repository line. Also, add the following two repo lines to the file: deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org/ [debian-multimedia.org] lenny main deb, http://download.skype.com/linux/repos/debian/ [skype.com] stable non-free

So yeah, the guy has taken a lot of private parts from people who don't have his best interest at heart. This is something Debian Developers don't think you should do, even if you call your laptop the Black Tower.

For all of that, I did not see him add decss, which is actually free software, and his desktop looks like shit when he's finished. He's probably so afraid of a DMCA action that he skips mentioning decss. It is sad that laws can keep US citizens from free software and shove some into the hands of people who say, "suck my dick." The ugliness of his desktop is a matter of personal taste. Free desktops look better than an ugly Win 2000 knock off. I can't stand icons on my desktop.

Re:You should read the article. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24611429)

> suck my dick.

wat

This article is full of errors and bad advice (4, Informative)

timrichardson (450256) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611605)

It's not Beta 2 of Lenny. Only the installation program is Beta 2. So that's a big mistake.

And the mistakes continue.

The advice to remove iceweasel and replace it with Firefox is crazy. Iceweasel is 99.99% Firefox, and the version that comes with Debian is optimised to use libraries and other software in the distribution (like spell check). If you follow the advice and use the mozilla version of firefox, you lose this integration.

Some sites "sniff" for browser type, and iceweasel is not detected as Firefox (wsj.com, google docs). This is easily fixed by going to about:config, searching for useragent, and changing "iceweasel" to "firefox".
All firefox extensions that I know of work with iceweasel.

To install acrobat reader, just add the http://www.debian-multimedia.org/ [debian-multimedia.org] repositories, and add the package acroread with Synaptic or apt-get.

Dependencies are annoying. (1, Insightful)

antdude (79039) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610379)

Like KDE games, I don't want them. If I try to remove them, then this:

# apt-get remove kdegames
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
    knetwalk kpat ksokoban kolf blinken krdc krec libdb4.6++ krfb kscd kppp kshisen kmoon kmahjongg ksig
    ksim libkscan1 kwifimanager kcharselect kjumpingcube kdeartwork-style kregexpeditor kcoloredit
    artsbuilder kdessh kanagram ktip kdeprint kmrml katomic ksvg kscreensaver kruler ktux klettres
    kgoldrunner kbackgammon kpoker libkiten1 ksnapshot kpackage kooka kenolaba kblackbox kdebase
    atlantikdesigner klatin kfloppy kdegraphics-kfile-plugins kstars ksame konqueror-nsplugins kbruch kpager
    libkdegames1 kde-core kcalc keduca klipper kdemultimedia-kappfinder-data kdeadmin-kfile-plugins kweather
    kmplot kalzium ksirc ksysguard klickety kpovmodeler ksayit kmouth noatun-plugins kworldclock mpeglib
    kdewebdev kmenuedit kicker-applets amor kdict ktouch khexedit ksplash kdeaccessibility kedit kbounce
    kvoctrain kdetoys kdenetwork-kfile-plugins kimagemapeditor atlantik kbstate kwordquiz kcron kview ktron
    kdenetwork kttsd dcoprss ksysv kwin4 kuser kdeaddons kreversi kdf kspaceduel kig kpf juk noatun kdnssd
    klines kdemultimedia-kfile-plugins fifteenapplet kdemultimedia kfaxview lskat libarts1-mpeglib
    kaddressbook-plugins kviewshell kgamma kdeutils khelpcenter kdegraphics khangman knetworkconf
    kdeartwork-theme-window ksmiletris konq-plugins kbattleship libpoppler-qt2 kiconedit kdeadmin kasteroids
    kfouleggs libkdeedu3 kwalletmanager kopete ksnake kdelibs kiten kappfinder eyesapplet kdat kate kdeedu
    kdelirc kpercentage superkaramba kjots kfax ksirtet kmines kdvi kget kuickshow kgpg konquest
    kate-plugins kolourpaint kmousetool kdeaddons-kfile-plugins libarts1-xine kmag kmilo ktuberling kturtle
    kaudiocreator ktimer kmid kteatime kverbos kdepasswd kmix kdeartwork kodo
Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
The following packages will be REMOVED:
    kde kdegames
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 2 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
After this operation, 90.1kB disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]?

Why is it removing KDE?

Same for Pilot:
# apt-get remove kpilot
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
    knetwalk kpat ksokoban kolf blinken krdc krec korn libdb4.6++ krfb kscd kppp kshisen kmoon kmahjongg
    ksig ksim libkscan1 kwifimanager kcharselect kjumpingcube kdeartwork-style kregexpeditor kcoloredit
    artsbuilder kdessh kanagram ktip kdeprint kmrml katomic kleopatra ksvg kscreensaver kruler ktux klettres
    kgoldrunner kbackgammon kpoker kdepim-kfile-plugins libkiten1 ksnapshot kpackage kooka kenolaba
    kblackbox kdebase atlantikdesigner konsolekalendar klatin kfloppy kdegraphics-kfile-plugins kstars ksame
    konqueror-nsplugins kbruch kpager kdepim-kio-plugins libkdegames1 kde-core kcalc keduca klipper kandy
    kdemultimedia-kappfinder-data kontact kdeadmin-kfile-plugins kweather kmplot kalzium ksirc ksysguard
    klickety kpovmodeler ksayit kmouth kalarm noatun-plugins kworldclock mpeglib kdewebdev kmenuedit
    kdegames kicker-applets amor kdict ktouch ktnef khexedit ksplash kdeaccessibility kedit kbounce
    kvoctrain korganizer kdetoys kdenetwork-kfile-plugins kimagemapeditor atlantik kbstate akregator
    kwordquiz kcron kview ktron kdenetwork kttsd dcoprss ksysv kwin4 libksieve0 kuser kdeaddons kreversi kdf
    kspaceduel kig libkpimidentities1 kpf libopensync0 juk noatun kdnssd klines kdemultimedia-kfile-plugins
    fifteenapplet kdemultimedia kfaxview lskat knotes libarts1-mpeglib kaddressbook-plugins kviewshell
    kgamma networkstatus kdeutils khelpcenter kdegraphics khangman libkpimexchange1 kmailcvt knetworkconf
    kdeartwork-theme-window ksmiletris konq-plugins kbattleship libpoppler-qt2 kiconedit kdeadmin kasteroids
    kfouleggs libkdeedu3 libkgantt0 kwalletmanager kopete ksnake kdelibs kiten kappfinder eyesapplet kdat
    karm kate kmail kdeedu kdelirc kpercentage superkaramba kjots kfax ksirtet kmines kdvi kget kuickshow
    kgpg konquest kate-plugins kolourpaint kmousetool kitchensync kdeaddons-kfile-plugins libarts1-xine kmag
    kdepim-kresources kdepim-wizards kmilo ktuberling kturtle kaudiocreator ktimer kmid kteatime kverbos
    kdepasswd kmix kdeartwork kodo
Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
The following packages will be REMOVED:
    kde kdepim kpilot
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 3 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
After this operation, 4444kB disk space will be freed. :( Too much stuff I don't need.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (5, Informative)

kriebz (258828) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610431)

'kde' is just a metapackage: it depends on the packages in that list (directly or indirectly). There's nothing wrong with leaving those other packages installed. The new apt/dpkg conventions try to help you remove cruft, so they let you remove those packages with `apt-get autoremove`. Instead of that, install a few that you need by hand to remove them from the list. When you don't see any in this list that you want, then run auto-remove.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (1)

antdude (79039) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610485)

But I would lose core components like:

The following packages will be REMOVED:
        kde kdegames

The following packages will be REMOVED:
        kde kdepim kpilot

I need KDE. :)

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (5, Informative)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610515)

But KDE is simply a metapackage much like ubuntu-desktop, for example, if you want to install KDE you simply do sudo apt-get install kde, removing the package KDE only removes the KDE metapackage.

The only point of the KDE metapackage is to provide a 1-click install for KDE.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (1, Informative)

antdude (79039) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610639)

# apt-get remove kde
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
    knetwalk kpat ksokoban kolf blinken krdc krec libdb4.6++ krfb kscd kppp kshisen kmoon kmahjongg ksig
    ksim libkscan1 kwifimanager kcharselect kjumpingcube kdeartwork-style kregexpeditor kcoloredit
    artsbuilder kdessh kanagram ktip kdeprint kmrml katomic ksvg kscreensaver kruler ktux klettres
    kgoldrunner kbackgammon kpoker libkiten1 ksnapshot kpackage kooka kenolaba kblackbox kdebase
    atlantikdesigner klatin kfloppy kdegraphics-kfile-plugins kstars ksame konqueror-nsplugins kbruch kpager
    libkdegames1 kde-core kcalc keduca klipper kdemultimedia-kappfinder-data kdeadmin-kfile-plugins kweather
    kmplot kalzium ksirc ksysguard klickety kpovmodeler ksayit kmouth noatun-plugins kworldclock mpeglib
    kdewebdev kmenuedit kdegames kicker-applets amor kdict ktouch khexedit ksplash kdeaccessibility kedit
    kbounce kvoctrain kdetoys kdenetwork-kfile-plugins kimagemapeditor atlantik kbstate kwordquiz kcron
    kview ktron kdenetwork kttsd dcoprss ksysv kwin4 kuser kdeaddons kreversi kdf kspaceduel kig kpf juk
    noatun kdnssd klines kdemultimedia-kfile-plugins fifteenapplet kdemultimedia kfaxview lskat
    libarts1-mpeglib kaddressbook-plugins kviewshell kgamma kdeutils khelpcenter kdegraphics khangman
    knetworkconf kdeartwork-theme-window ksmiletris konq-plugins kbattleship libpoppler-qt2 kiconedit
    kdeadmin kasteroids kfouleggs libkdeedu3 kwalletmanager kopete ksnake kdelibs kiten kappfinder
    eyesapplet kdat kate kdeedu kdelirc kpercentage superkaramba kjots kfax ksirtet kmines kdvi kget
    kuickshow kgpg konquest kate-plugins kolourpaint kmousetool kdeaddons-kfile-plugins libarts1-xine kmag
    kmilo ktuberling kturtle kaudiocreator ktimer kmid kteatime kverbos kdepasswd kmix kdeartwork kodo
Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
The following packages will be REMOVED:
    kde
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
After this operation, 41.0kB disk space will be freed.

So removing kde will not uninstall KDE I use? What about the other packages like kppp (yes, still use dial-up modem)?

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (4, Informative)

obi (118631) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610739)

Read what apt says.

"The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:"
This does _not_ mean they're going to be removed.

"The following packages will be REMOVED:"
Only that specific convenience meta-package gets removed.

To further illustrate this, check this line:
"After this operation, 41.0kB disk space will be freed."
Somehow I think KDE takes more than 41.0kB, don't you?

If you really wanted to remove the kde meta-package together with all the dependencies that it pulled in (so all the things you didn't explicitly apt-get install yourself), you'd use "apt-get autoremove kde".

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (1)

antdude (79039) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610833)

Interesting. How can I tell which packages are meta and are not? I also use deborphan to remove any packages that have no dependencies.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24610959)

With apt-cache show
ej:
$apt-cache show kubuntu-desktop

Package: kubuntu-desktop
Priority: optional
Section: metapackages
Installed-Size: 44
Maintainer: Jonathan Riddell
Architecture: i386
Source: kubuntu-meta
Version: 1.75
Depends: ...
Recommends: ...
Filename: pool/main/k/kubuntu-meta/kubuntu-desktop_1.75_i386.deb
Size: 18440
MD5sum: 49fac831557253af404eca7f5dd5b521
SHA1: 0c013e50c769e5175024a2172f47bfa9284e97f0
SHA256: d5cf626d7be4330bc627a355afce5138f25ba5e0c8bf361864e4563cb9b741cf
Description: Kubuntu desktop system
  This package depends on all of the packages in the Kubuntu desktop system
  .
  It is safe to remove this package if some of the desktop system packages are
  not desired.
Bugs: mailto:ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Origin: Ubuntu
Task: kubuntu-desktop, edubuntu-desktop-kde

(The example is from kubuntu 8.04, but the fields section and/or description will probably contain the word "metapackage")

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (1)

Daengbo (523424) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611161)

You can also use "aptitude keep-all" to keep the packages tagged as {a} (automatically installed).

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (1)

antdude (79039) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611021)

Question: How can you tell which ones are metapackages and not?

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24611149)

The metapackages have the word metapackage in the description

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (1)

Tubal-Cain (1289912) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611325)

Like the AC said, they will say meta-package in the description. And it will be ridiculously small. Like someone else pointed out: KDE doesn't take up only ~40kiB.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (4, Funny)

Telvin_3d (855514) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610489)

Wait, your OS of choice has 50MB of extra stuff? Oh God, th world is ending! How will you possibly manage if you can't free up that massive portion of your dozens and dozens of GB of storage? It's a travesty! We should lynch the developers!

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (2, Informative)

pipatron (966506) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610595)

Some of us already live in the future and use SSD on our laptops. Every gigabyte here is precious, since there's often not dozens, hardly even one dozen. Those 50MB are easily much more, sometimes up to gigs of useless crap. All applications also take up space in the menus, which might be annoying on a portable device with a smallish screen.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24610789)

Eh, who cares, your SSD will die shortly.
Damn limited read/write times.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (4, Insightful)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611045)

Some of us already live in the future and use SSD on our laptops. Every gigabyte here is precious, since there's often not dozens, hardly even one dozen.

Funny, that doesn't sound like the future to me. Sounds more like you're living in a solid state version of 1997.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (1)

MrNaz (730548) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611091)

Yea, a 1997 with laptops that weigh 1kg, have a battery life of 5 hours and a screen that is actually capable of doing graphics work on.

I wish I was around in *your* 1997.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (1)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611207)

Yea, a 1997 with laptops that weigh 1kg, have a battery life of 5 hours and a screen that is actually capable of doing graphics work on. I wish I was around in *your* 1997.

Well, except for weighing ~5 lbs more and a max battery life of four hours, we had this [lowendmac.com] way back in 1995. So I'm not really impressed.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (1)

BillyGee (981263) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611787)

"introduced 1995.08.25 at $6,500 (5300ce); " In 2007, $6,500.00 from 1997 is worth: $8,397.03 using the Consumer Price Index $8,162.43 using the GDP deflator $9,408.66 using the value of consumer bundle * $8,671.87 using the unskilled wage * $9,765.17 using the nominal GDP per capita $10,807.50 using the relative share of GDP Rich. For that money today one could get a laptop with 128G SSD...and...another 15 x 128G SSD drives on top of it. Thanks for shopping with us!

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24611895)

Congratulations -- You've just discovered that new technologies cost more when they first come out! When can we expect to read your whitepapers, O Great One?

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (1)

afabbro (33948) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611165)

Some of us already live in the future and use SSD on our laptops

Um, no, some of you are living in 2008 and that's why your SSD drives are small and "every gigabyte is precious".

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (5, Informative)

faccenda (446193) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610547)

No, they are not annoying. This is a very useful new concept in Debian, I believe that once you understand it, you can see how nice it is.

Explaining better:

All those packages are installed as dependencies of the metapackage 'kde'.

You are trying to remove one of it's dependencies (kdegames) and that's why apt-get want to uninstall all other dependencies and the 'kde' itself.

If you want those packages, but not the kdegames, you should install those packages by hand (or at least those starting with kde, that I think most of them are metapackages also).

It can be new in Debian, but only relatively new in Ubuntu (I believe is in some new version of the apt system), but quite old in Gentoo. And it was one of the things that I missed most in Debian.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (1)

antdude (79039) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610587)

Well, I installed KDE from net-installer and it seems to installed everything. How do I uninstall packages/features I don't want like kdegames, kpilot, etc. then?

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (-1, Troll)

poopdeville (841677) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610809)

$ sudo su
# rm -rf /usr/local/lib/KDE /etc

to get rid of the KEtcetera (games, mouse gazers, and other pointless) stuff.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24610885)

Please die now.

Just because someone does not know something, and asks a legitimate question, is no reason to give them instructions that will completely fuck over their machine.

Seriously man, how the hell can you act like that to another human being?

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (-1, Troll)

poopdeville (841677) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610983)

RTFM LUSAR NUUB

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (1)

MrNaz (730548) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611099)

Open Source at its very best.

The rest of us thank you for the wonderful work you are doing helping get free software into the mainstream.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (3, Informative)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611127)

Just use apt-get remove kpilot kdegames kde_whatever_you're_trying_to_get_rid_of and watch your output. When it says "the following packages will be removed: list_of_packages" only the packages listed after "removed" will be removed. So, as someone else pointed out, kde is safe to remove (it is a meta package) and of course the kdegames and kpilot and plenty of others can also be safely removed.
Also, I hope you will ignore the trolls who give false answers or tell you to RTFM. They are full of crap, and you are to be commended for having the courage to ask such questions. The day you can't get a decent answer to a valid question on /. will be the day that /. ceases to exist for me.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (2, Informative)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610989)

Er, no. Read what apt says--it doesn't uninstall those packages, they're just marked as unnecessary and can be removed.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (0, Redundant)

DeviceGuru (1136715) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610903)

yes, indeed. why should it remove kde if you remove a game (or the batch). something seems badly broken!

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24611423)

something seems badly broken!

It's your ability to read. Apparently you failed to read:

  • The apt output
  • The half dozen posts before yours explaining the apt output
  • The apt documentation

Debian: "Too hard" because you'd have to read.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24611101)

What this raging homo wants the kde-core package.

Just because the package name sounds like what you want doesn't mean it is, you can 'apt-cache show' to see what it actually is.

Re:Dependencies are annoying. (1)

xalorous (883991) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611841)

Umm, during install, uncheck everything, then select KDE? Then make sure that it didn't automatically pick up the extra KDE stuff you don't want.

Or, uninstall everything like you just almost did, then REINSTALL KDE. Not that hard.

I should think that, of all distros, Debian would have a bare KDE preset option.

sheesh, and I'm not even a hardcore linux guy/geek/fanboi

How can this be? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24610407)

It's only been sixteen months since Etch was released, not three years! Something's wrong!

Re:How can this be? (2, Funny)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610413)

No, you have to realize, this is like KDE 4, just because it is nearing completion doesn't mean that it will be released this year. That and Duke Nukem Forever.

Sigh, JPG screenshots (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24610417)

Someone, please think of the children, and tell this guy about using PNG for screenshots!

Re:Sigh, JPG screenshots (4, Funny)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610501)

Just look at the icons in this shot [deviceguru.com]. The fellow is running more proprietary code than some windows boxes I've met. Just be glad they aren't .bmp or, even better, .wmf format.

Re:Sigh, JPG screenshots (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24610881)

If I had mod points, I'd be confused as to whether to mod you insightful or informative. Then, I'd have a drink to think it over, end up at the same point, have another drink, repeat, and end up drunk. Thankfully, I have no mod points, since tomorrow is a work day for me.

Re:Sigh, JPG screenshots (5, Funny)

MrNaz (730548) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611141)

Please can you tell us more about the windows boxes you met. What are they like to talk to? Are they overly trusting? I bet they're the polar opposite of the OpenBSD boxes I met. The conversation went like this:

Me: Hi guys! Enjoying the tofu at this conference?
OpenBSD_box1: Who the fuck are you?
OpenBSD_box2: We don't know you, get lost before we beat you to a pulp.
OpenBSD_box1: He's leaving, but let's beat him anyway!
OpenBSD_box3: Hey! He's still conscious! You guys are such slackers!

Re:Sigh, JPG screenshots (2, Interesting)

jay-be-em (664602) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610871)

png is far better than jpeg for images with lots of gradients and solid colors like screenshots than. Compare similarly sized screenshots using png and jpg -- jpg will be full of artifacting.

If you were complaining about someone using pngs for photographs you'd have a point.

Re:Sigh, JPG screenshots (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24611351)

Photographs in PNG format is an A-OK idea.

It preserves the images pretty accurately compared to JPEG, and is usually 3 - 8 MB less in size compared to raw formats.

With JPEG you get 300 - 400 Kb files, but then you also get ugly artifacts with them. 80 - 100% JPEG Quality is the range you want if the image will ever be viewed outside of The Web.

So there is no point complaining about someone using PNG for photographs.

freebsd (1, Interesting)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610577)

if you want something like debian that isn't as cutting edge but stable, use freebsd it's far better. i admin'd freebsd boxes for years and it was a joy to work with.

Re:freebsd (1)

Tubal-Cain (1289912) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610999)

I see 3 install ISOs [freebsd.org]. Debian has 21 images [debian.org], but you only really need the first one to install with a GUI. IIRC, openSUSE 10.1 required a minimum of 3 discs out of 5. So tell me: Which ISOs do I need to have KDE installed at boot? My ISP doesn't like it when I download CD images, so I want to avoid downloading all three if at all possible. Unfortunately, I am not connected to the Internet by a wire, so unless one can use a WPA2 wifi connection during the installation, a netinstall is out of the question. Thanks.

Re:freebsd (1)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611031)

download the 10meg boot cd on the freebsd site and download only the bare bones packages during the install.

Debian minimal bootstrap (1)

brianez21 (945805) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611081)

Because you said a netinstall is out of the question, might I suggest to first install a core CLI-only system? For example, these Debian ISOs [debian.org] are only 180MB in size and contain enough to get yourself up and running. From there you have a full Debian system at your disposal - you can configure your 802.11 and WPA2 settings and pull down KDE via apt-get as needed.

Re:Debian minimal bootstrap (1)

Tubal-Cain (1289912) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611113)

I am currently running Debian, I just want to expand my horizons a bit.

And I have never quite figured out configuring WiFi through the CLI.

Re:freebsd (4, Funny)

westyvw (653833) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611155)

ROFLMAO : If i want debian that ISNT as cutting edge? With the super fast release cycles of debian stable whizzing out of the gate so fast I too say : Slow Down, lets not get carried away!

Re:freebsd (5, Funny)

beav007 (746004) | more than 5 years ago | (#24612003)

I resent that. I'm personally looking forward to the new release of Debian. I've been hearing good things about KDE3, so I'm hoping that it's stable enough to be included in this version.

I also hear that some mysterious issues with OpenSSL have been fixed by Debian developers, which could save us from memory leaks and increase performance. Personally, I'm amazed that the OpenSSL devs haven't fixed this issue themselves yet.

Obviously, this distro is where all the exciting new development action happens. I'm very excited to be on the bleeding edge with Debian!

It's not Debian Lenny Beta 2 (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24610585)

It's the current testing branch, installed using the second beta of the Debian-Installer version to be included in Lenny. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I already use a modern stable Debian... (-1, Troll)

mortonda (5175) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610643)

It's called Ubuntu.

Re:I already use a modern stable Debian... (1)

wcpalmer (1232598) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610685)

Actually, Ubuntu is built off of Debian Sid, which is 'unstable'.

However, I am assuming that you already knew that and were merely attempting to (unsuccessfully) troll.

Re:I already use a modern stable Debian... (1)

mortonda (5175) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611219)

No, actually neither of those facts are relevant. The branch that Ubuntu comes from is irrelevant. Ubuntu is quite stable in its own right.

Why this is a troll but the BSD post isn't is beyond me.

Re:I already use a modern stable Debian... (0, Flamebait)

kjots (64798) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611301)

Why this is a troll but the BSD post isn't is beyond me.

Probably because Ubuntu is for lamoes that can't use a fucking computer properly, whereas BSD is actually an old-skool UNIX system that every true geek should honor and revere, even if they wouldn't be seen dead using it.

Still not ready (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24610681)

Hacking to get Wifi working, hacking to get PPP working, hacking config files to get sound working properly and no bluetooth.

And Freetards will have everyone believe GNU/Linux is ready for most people's desktops. Sorry, but it's still failing in this market.

Queue the lame, "It's the manufacturer's fault!" and the "It's the proprietary software dev's fault!" posts. Sorry, but this is utter crap, if these people were given a solid software base to develop on there wouldn't be a problem. Multiple distro targets, with the associated differences in subsystems, make it nearly impossible for third-party developers to develop for "Linux", whilst an unstable ABI means no device drivers for GNU/Linux lusers.

Yeah, yeah. -1 Truth. Mod me down, but some of you Freetards will read this, and you know deep-down that it's true. We really need to stop shoving GNU/Linux down people's throats, until it's ready for the desktop.

Re:Still not ready (3, Informative)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610957)

Hacking to get Wifi working, hacking to get PPP working, hacking config files to get sound working properly and no bluetooth. And Freetards will have everyone believe GNU/Linux is ready for most people's desktops. Sorry, but it's still failing in this market.

Debian is mainly used as a server OS, it isn't generally held up as a shining example of how Linux is ready for the desktop. It is fairly widely used in production environments, and by developers and other geeky types, and it is considered an excellent stable base for other, more specialised distros. Like, for example, Ubuntu -- which is more than "ready" for the desktop.

Yeah, yeah. -1 Truth. Mod me down, but some of you Freetards will read this, and you know deep-down that it's true. We really need to stop shoving GNU/Linux down people's throats, until it's ready for the desktop.

In order to criticize in a meaningful way, one needs to know the subject at hand. Otherwise, you're just trolling and making inappropriate noise. And really, "freetards"? What kind of "tard" does that make you then? :) [HINT: This is a geek forum.]

Re:Still not ready (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24611227)

Debian isn't ready for the desktop? It's one of the most user friendly distros out there. Installing it is dead simple and once you install kde/gnome/etc. it's no different from anything else.

Re:Still not ready (2, Interesting)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611287)

Debian isn't ready for the desktop?

Nowhere did I say that, but since you ask: depends upon whose desktop. I put my Mom on Ubuntu, and wouldn't dream of putting her on Debian. I'm not going to teach her to use synaptic, much less apt. Plus the drivers, default configs, and things like the Ubuntu update manager make all the difference for the non-geek user. Personally, I do use Debian for several of my desktop machines, but I was using it back when we had to install with dselect, so I know the CLI well enough that Ubuntu just feels a bit bloaty to me. Not that it's bloaty for a non-geek, who's probably used to winXP. It's all relative.

Re:Still not ready (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24611187)

As opposed to a Windows Xp install this week. Win XP slipstreamed with SP3 on a MSI VR700 notebook that is sold as Vista only by MSI. There is no physical restriction on the notebook it's just they don't supply drivers in a readily accessible place.

Install XP, Display is marginal 1024x768 default VGA supported but not the native resolution (Intel 945GM chipset). No Ethernet, Wireless or Audio and I was never expecting the Web cam to work. Much hunting round for a day or so and everything is configured but this would have been impossible without some hardware knowlege. Don't tell me that Windows "Just Works"

Oh and BTW I found out the hardware confguration from an Ubuntu Live CD (8.04 & 7.10) where the hardware actually did "Just Work". Display Ethernet, Wireless and Audio all worked perfectly immediately from boot. I'll admit I didn't try the webcam.

This argument surrounding the effort required to make an O/S support the hardware is just bullshit. I would rate XP and Linux on par at least. A recent Linux Distro is generally better as it includes all the drivers. Vista, well good luck with that

Re:Still not ready (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24611717)

> no bluetooth.
not true. bluetooth since 2001.

Nice try troll.

advice for upgrading a server? (3, Interesting)

bcrowell (177657) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610705)

I have a server running stable, and I don't have physical access to it. Does anyone have any practical advice on the safest way to handle the upgrade? Is a debian "stable" really stable when it first comes out, or is it better to wait a while? Basically, what I understand of the procedure is something like this:
  1. Read the readme -- where do I find it?
  2. apt-get update
  3. apt-get dist-upgrade

I'm a little leery of this, since I've rendered ubuntu desktop systems unbootable by doing 2 and 3 -- and was told that it was because I should have done 1.

Re:advice for upgrading a server? (3, Informative)

dcam (615646) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610795)

I am by no means an expert, however I have upgraded a couple of servers that I don't have physical access to.

I've normally tried to upgrade a server that I do have physical access to before upgrading the offsite server(s). So long as the server comes back up and ssh is still running pretty much everything else can be sorted out after a little time, the logs and google.

Ideally similar hardware.

Oh and googling around to see if anyone has hit problems doing the upgrade.

Re:advice for upgrading a server? (2, Informative)

Dionysus (12737) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610823)

1. Release notes will be here [debian.org] (right now they contain the etch release notes).
2. You probably will have to type apt-get dist-upgrade a couple of times (I usually average two). Reason is first couple of times, some packages will be stuck because of conflicting versioning, but it usually fixes itself once you get a couple of packages upgraded (usually once you get past libc and the kernel)

Generally speaking, Debian upgrade is much more painless than Ubuntu upgrades, IMO, possibly because of the longer release cycle. My Debian systems usually have some mixture of stable and backports, and I don't remember having any problems upgrading. Even desktops where I am third-party repos outside backports, I don't have any problems.

One thing you might want to do, especially if you don't have physical access to the server, is to wait a week to upgrade to see if there is a huge problem with other people's upgrade.

Re:advice for upgrading a server? (1)

calix0815 (899216) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611193)

I second that. I've remotely upgraded my server from woody to sarge to etch. If you follow the detailed instructions in the release notes there won't be a problem. I also waited for two months after the release before upgrading, just in case an important issue with the release notes came up short after the release.

Re:advice for upgrading a server? (1)

cobaltnova (1188515) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610873)

IANAA (admin), but I do use Debian; and I have upgraded from stable to testing to unstable. I have gotten myself (into and) out of hard places by using aptitude. It is your friend: you can see EXACTLY what is going to happen, change preferences to prevent disaster, etc.

I found that unsetting "Automatically fix broken packages before installing or removing" let me determine my own resolution to conflicts, instead of relying on apt-logic (which usually doesn't do what I want).

If you want to get your hands dirty, this would be my approach. OTOH, if you don't want to learn a bit about the package dependency heirarchy of Debian, this probably isn't for you.

I Wouldn't (1)

maz2331 (1104901) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610919)

Even if possible, I don't upgrade boxes that I can't get physical access to, or at least hit via an IP KVM so that reinstallation via CD is possible.

But I'm just really conservative on that.

Good Point (5, Insightful)

Gazzonyx (982402) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611441)

Everyone becomes conservative with upgrades after the first time that a box 3000 miles away fails to come back up. Seriously, waiting for a remote reboot after a kernel update is always the longest two minutes of my life.

Even the headless boxes at my apartment wait for me to set aside time to haul out a monitor and keyboard if anything goes wrong during an update. It's better to assume that something will go wrong and be pleasantly surprised and ahead of schedule than to sit staring at pings that have been timing out for the last five minutes (while you think, maybe it's just taking a long time to init... yeah, right!).

And, regardless of what anyone says, a virtual machine test environment doesn't have anywhere near the complications that you get with heavy metal. A successful virtual machine test just means that nothing is assured to go wrong, nothing more.

Re:advice for upgrading a server? (4, Informative)

gardyloo (512791) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610943)

At least do a simulated dist-upgrade by using the -s switch before doing the "real" one!

      apt-get -s dist-upgrade

Sometimes, just sometimes, it'll catch things which might go wrong before they actually happen.

Re:advice for upgrading a server? (1)

UPi (137083) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610975)

Ubuntu, maybe. But not Debian! I've upgraded my server to Etch via ssh. The upgrade was seamless, I didn't even have to log out and log in again. I was very impressed by how much work debian has put into the smooth upgrade. If you don't trust the system, you might want to "test run" the upgrade by running it on a local machine first.

Re:advice for upgrading a server? (2, Insightful)

lakeland (218447) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611053)

Every new stable is really well tested, I would expect it to work just fine.

Having said that, if you don't want it to happen then just change your sources.list from 'stable' to your release name.

If you don't have remote KVM I would be tempted to wait a week or so after release before upgrading - just to see if others have hit snags.

Re:advice for upgrading a server? (1)

dcam (615646) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611741)

Every new stable is really well tested, I would expect it to work just fine.

The last move from sarge to etch caused some issues for me, specifically the postfix-mysql authentication. I sorted them all out within about an hour or two after the upgrade, but it does happen.

Re:advice for upgrading a server? (1)

batray (257663) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611633)

Leave it alone and only apply the security updates. I have a server happily running sarge that I have no plans to change.
Onnce you have a stable web server that does what you need. Only change things you need to maintain security.

Re:advice for upgrading a server? (4, Informative)

shish (588640) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611855)

Leave it alone and only apply the security updates. I have a server happily running sarge that I have no plans to change.

Ummm.. you know that sarge no longer gets security updates, right? :S (announcement [debian.org])

Re:advice for upgrading a server? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24611655)

First of all check your /etc/apt/sources.list

Does it say stable or etch in the deb & deb-http rules?

When it is etch, then you can dist-upgrade all you want, but it will stay old-stable. That is not a bad thing, as you might want to do a normal upgrade first.

Your server probably has some specific task. Checkout the differences between the etch release and the lenny release. You can do that for example on http://packages.debian.org/ . Normally the upgrade will go quite smooth. If you are not sure, wait a couple of months and google: "debian etch lenny upgrade hell package-name"
You could also install etch in VM, install the same packages, upgrade and test.

When you are sure the upgrade will go just fine:

sed -i "s/etch/lenny/" /etc/apt/sources.list
apt-get update
apt-get dist-upgrade
(repeat and hope for the best)

He, it will be ok as usual... It's still testing. (1)

eaman (710548) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610773)

Like all of the Debian users 'round here already know, from the archive there's a kde-core (meta) package:

This meta-package includes the core official modules released with KDE. This includes just the basic desktop (browser, file manager, text editor, control center, panel, etc.) and important libraries and data, in addition to the aRts soundserver.

And then there's a kde package "all-included" for those who want a quick "all-included" KDE desktop setup. That's as it is now, as it was before Etch, and Lenny will do the same. Just let those nice devs sort the packages and the dependencies as they float in the testing branch, no need for panic.

who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24610869)

Seriously, this "stable" branch is now so out of date as to be useless.

Does what it says on the box (4, Insightful)

Twitchimus (415770) | more than 5 years ago | (#24610887)

OK, so the gentleman downloaded and installed the *KDE* version of Debian Lenny, and then says his main complaint "is its inclusion of way too many of KDE's rich set of applications, such as games, tools, etc."

I can understand that; I once installed Windows XP, but there were far too many Microsoft applications for my liking.

More games = more interesting (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24611105)

I for one (in addition to welcoming our KDE overlords) think it is great that games are being included by default. More distros need to do this. Every LiveCD should be able to show people that Windows isn't the only OS where you can waste time playing Solitaire. A LiveCD/default install that doesn't have this is probably going to feel like an incomplete system to the average desktop user.

A few hacks and fixes?? (1)

TardisX (15222) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611381)

"Other than the need for a few hacks and fixes".

This is on a blog post that has appendices.

Iceweasel is named that way due to Mozilla (5, Interesting)

Sipper (462582) | more than 5 years ago | (#24611385)

I read The Fine Article; a few comments on the author's article:

Iceweasel
=-=-=-=-=
One of the complaints is that he wants "real" Firefox rather than the renamed Iceweasel. Well, until the Mozilla Foundation says differently, that isn't possible. Mozilla withdrew their prior permission to ship Firefox with a replaced logo that fit the Debian Free Software Guidelines, and the only way to comply with both Mozilla and the DFSG was to rename the application. So if you want to complain about this, write to Mozilla. I think Debian totally made the right choice to rename.

Shorter explanation:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_IceCat [wikipedia.org]
Longer explanation:
      http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=354622 [debian.org]

Playing a DVD
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The author wasn't able to test playing a DVD; normal movie DVDs that use encryption won't play out of the box. This is because Debian cannot ship libdvdcss2 as part of the main distribution for legal reasons, same as other distributions. There are other external repositories (outside of the US) that contain libdvdcss2 -- but it may not be legal to import the package into the US. You might find some choices if you put "Debian" and "multimedia" into Google and see what comes up.

Modem
=-=-=-=
Wow, the author set up the POTS modem. When is the last time you had to use one of those? Gotta give him credit for going through that effort.

- Chris

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