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Dreamworks and Carmack Discuss 3D and Threading At IDF

Soulskill posted more than 5 years ago | from the not-the-israel-defense-forces dept.

Graphics 85

MojoKid writes "At the Intel Developer Forum, VP and GM of Intel's Software and Solutions group, Renee James, wheeled out a few celebrities of the 3D world, namely Jeffrey Katzenberg of Dreamworks and John Carmack of id Software. According to Katzenberg, film directors Robert Zemeckis, James Cameron, Peter Jackson, Steven Spielberg, and George Lucas are all 'working in 3D now.' Katzenberg specifically showcased the Dreamworks film Kung Fu Panda, which was rendered in 3D, and then spoke of the first 3D, CG animated film they'll be releasing in March '09, titled Monsters vs. Aliens. Then came John Carmack, co-owner and Technical Director of id Software, who ran a demo of their still-in-development, post-apocalyptic game, Rage. Carmack talked briefly about the different ways that the game utilizes threading and multi-core support." A webcast of the full 50+ minute presentation is available at the IDF page. Renee James' presentation is on day two. A full transcript (PDF) is also available.

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85 comments

First! (2)

pieisgood (841871) | more than 5 years ago | (#24694301)

Seriously though, I want rage and Doom 4. I might be a company loyalist by buying and liking id games, but since the third grade I've been playing their games.

Re:First! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24694409)

Doom 3 wasn't very entertaining and I personally have always enjoyed ID games.

Lets just hope that Carmack doesn't embrace this larabee crap.

Re:First! (1, Insightful)

nomadic (141991) | more than 5 years ago | (#24695535)

Seriously though, I want rage and Doom 4. I might be a company loyalist by buying and liking id games, but since the third grade I've been playing their games.

Have you noticed that you've been playing the same games, just with incrementally improved graphics, since third grade?

New graphics in RL (1)

mrwolf007 (1116997) | more than 5 years ago | (#24696985)

So what?
I know people who buy a new chess board every couple of years. So more or less, the same figures but all kinds of different skins. And yes, you can spend more on a new set of chess figures than on a new game (ok, now if you add the cost for the new gfx card you can get some really neat figures).

Re:First! (1)

Bat Country (829565) | more than 5 years ago | (#24708485)

Er, yeah, I have to agree with the other people who are saying "So what?"

There are these things called hobbies where people do the same thing over and over because they are entertained by doing them. Some people strike small white balls across vast areas of green fields which would make good housing. Some people assemble tiny effigies of weapons of war out of solid forms of toxic chemicals, affixing the pieces together using other toxic chemicals.

Then other people play video games. The only difference between two gamers is how much variety they prefer in their stimuli.

I do have to say that I feel that Doom 3 was a step backward in gameplay from Doom and Doom 2, however. It lacked the spontaneity of the previous games, and its lack of variety in environments hurt the pacing.

Re:First! (1)

HitoGuy (1324613) | more than 5 years ago | (#24698783)

It does sound nifty... but I'm not a big fan of Dreamworks. How many companies have been founded almost purely just to spite another company the way Dreamworks has?

Good morning frosty post how are you? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24694379)

Don't you know me, I'm your firsty post,
I'm the post they call The Firsty of Anonymous Coward,
I'll be gone five hundred miles when the day is done.

Monsters vs. Aliens (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24694417)

I don't see this going too well for the Monsters.

Yeah, big, blue furry cute 'monster' vs. HR Giger's horror.

I'd hate to see the Alien that bursts out of that though, given that the Alien absorbs DNA from the host it parasitises.

So... Muitl-Threading renders Blacker Blacks? (1, Funny)

Zymergy (803632) | more than 5 years ago | (#24694419)

I can just imagine it now... "Our new 3D Multi-Threading engine renders the Blackest Blacks ever!" -John Carmack. /sarcasm

Re:So... Muitl-Threading renders Blacker Blacks? (3, Insightful)

SendBot (29932) | more than 5 years ago | (#24694473)

Maybe this time at least you'll be able to pick up a roll of duct tape (by running your character over it, natch) so that you can use your gun AND the flashlight.

Re:So... Muitl-Threading renders Blacker Blacks? (0, Troll)

AP31R0N (723649) | more than 5 years ago | (#24694943)

But how much more black could it get?

Re:So... Muitl-Threading renders Blacker Blacks? (2, Funny)

CogDissident (951207) | more than 5 years ago | (#24695007)

I still like the analogy that the game felt like the designers had dunked a monkey in black paint and just had it roll over your monitor for a few hours.

Re:So... Muitl-Threading renders Blacker Blacks? (1)

binarylarry (1338699) | more than 5 years ago | (#24697057)

I hear they've hired Samuel L. Jackson to start as the main protagonist.

If that's true, the game just got a whole lot blacker, motherfucka!

Re:So... Muitl-Threading renders Blacker Blacks? (1)

AP31R0N (723649) | more than 5 years ago | (#24710217)

Why did someone mod me a troll for making a Spinal Tap reference? Is this someone getting revenge for something else i said? Aren't there supposed to be meta-moderators to check on abuse like this?

Re:So... Muitl-Threading renders Blacker Blacks? (1)

meyekul (1204876) | more than 5 years ago | (#24696155)

Doom 3's way-too-dark theme would have been cool for a special effect in one or two levels, but after a while it was just really annoying and just made the game harder in a way that didn't really add to the fun.

Re:So... Muitl-Threading renders Blacker Blacks? (1)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 5 years ago | (#24698491)

Thats subjective to your tastes. I thought the environment was entirely appropriate. In fact, playing Quake 4 (which I also loved and thought the environment was pretty damn good) I enabled self shadowing for flashlights and stuff - imagine walking down a corridor with a squad but having to deal with your own shadow being cast by their tactical lights...

It really depends on what you are looking for. If you are looking for an arcade shootfest, Doom3 was only halfway there.

As for the ductape bit, yea I agree with you on that. I also wonder why, with the technology for plasma weapons, nobody has any friggin' nightvision or thermal optics.

Re:So... Muitl-Threading renders Blacker Blacks? (1)

Schnoogs (1087081) | more than 5 years ago | (#24696571)

Maybe your failed attempt at humor wouldn't have been so bad if it didn't painfully indicate complete ignorance of Rage and what it looks like.

Gameplay vs. Graphics (4, Informative)

QuantumRiff (120817) | more than 5 years ago | (#24694461)

I would really like to see ID focus on team based play a bit more than they have. Most of their games you can easily win with one very good player on your team. I really like the "forced" teamwork that is in the Enemy Territory Series, as they split up into different classes. (both for Quake Wars and Return to Castle Wolfenstein). I'd like to see them expand it a bit more.. Man, ID software's graphics, with the Battlefield series of gameplay (I like the "commander" feature) would be sweet!

Oh, and in case your reading this ID guys, thanks for your linux support, I'm an Ubuntu user, and your one of the few publishers whose games I can play!

A port-able solution. (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24694723)

"Oh, and in case your reading this ID guys, thanks for your linux support, I'm an Ubuntu user, and your one of the few publishers whose games I can play!"

But not create mods for. I have the Loki version of UT2004 and the game was ported, but not the editor.

Re:A port-able solution. (3, Informative)

pieisgood (841871) | more than 5 years ago | (#24694745)

UT2004 was made by Epic Games not id software.

Re:A port-able solution. (1)

p0tat03 (985078) | more than 5 years ago | (#24695765)

Wasn't UT2004 made by Digital Extremes, under contract and engine support from Epic? Just a little nitpick, but there maybe a reason why Epic took the whole thing in-house for UT3.

Re:A port-able solution. (1)

pieisgood (841871) | more than 5 years ago | (#24695799)

and subsequently ruined the UT series in foul swoop.

Re:Gameplay vs. Graphics (1)

PitaBred (632671) | more than 5 years ago | (#24695163)

Some of us like the game balanced that way, though. Teamwork is nice sometimes, but then you lose the competing with your teammates aspect. As in, "Look how many more frags I got than you did!". Not saying that teamwork isn't fun sometimes, just saying that people have different tastes, and trying to compete with ET on ET's turf is like all 160lbs of me saying "You know, I always wanted to be a sumo wrestler."

Re:Gameplay vs. Graphics (1)

zebslash (1107957) | more than 5 years ago | (#24696017)

Oh, and in case your reading this ID guys, thanks for your linux support

Well, after reading this: http://www.linuxgames.com/archives/10532 [linuxgames.com] I am not sure you will be so happy.
It seems that Carmack abandons Linux too...

Re:Gameplay vs. Graphics (2, Insightful)

ypctx (1324269) | more than 5 years ago | (#24697553)

Whatever, we'll just wait until they open source their games after some time on market, and then port them to Linux:) Until then, I play IOQuake3! (Which is not a proper example, as it was ported from Linux' Q3).

Re:Gameplay vs. Graphics (1)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 5 years ago | (#24698545)

Hmm, your post is contradictory. Sure, they want to support Linux. But they can't devote company resources (ie, cash) to it. Sounds reasonable - they want to do it but the investors don't. They will however continue their practice of open sourcing engines unless something stupid (patent troll) comes up. So, in the end, we may not have the actual game under Linux, but believe me when I say we WILL have the engine. Look at Doom, Quake, Quake 2, and Quake 3...

I would say this paints a picture far more positive than what you see it doing.

Re:Gameplay vs. Graphics (3, Interesting)

Burning1 (204959) | more than 5 years ago | (#24696595)

I would really like to see ID focus on team based play a bit more than they have.

I've always considered ID to be an engine development house first, and a game developer second. They've had a lot of amazing successes in the retail market, but their true strength seems to be in developing the game engines that other developers use to push game-play boundaries.

I've always enjoyed the games that ID has created, but off the top of my head, I can't think of anything they've produced in-house that sparks a revolution in gameplay since the original Wolfenstein 3D.

Re:Gameplay vs. Graphics (1)

serviscope_minor (664417) | more than 5 years ago | (#24700253)

I've always enjoyed the games that ID has created, but off the top of my head, I can't think of anything they've produced in-house that sparks a revolution in gameplay since the original Wolfenstein 3D.

Did you ever play Doom or Quake 1?

Revolutions (1)

DrYak (748999) | more than 5 years ago | (#24702539)

I can't think of anything they've produced in-house that sparks a revolution in gameplay since the original Wolfenstein 3D.

Did you ever play Doom or Quake 1?

Well, the poster is still right in terms of "sparking a revolution".

Wolfenstein is the game which bought 3D first-person shooters into mainstream and into everyone's attention. It was the game that everyone else tried to copy. The whole landscape of PC gaming pretty much changed after that with FPS becoming one of the main genre of produced games, whereas prior efforts (be it old games like Midi Maze or even more recent productions like id's own Hovertank) where usually considered as interesting experiments.

Whereas Doom and Quake 1, although really good games, are basically the same stuff with prettier graphics and better game play. They are really good games, but they didn't jump start a whole new game genre. They weren't *revolutions*

Re:Revolutions (1)

F34nor (321515) | more than 5 years ago | (#24705113)

Yes in fact I played Quake I last night. I dug it out of the basement so I could run it on my new Nokia e71. I love it but it is not a story driven game. You run around a castle blowing up ogres and zombies and giant electro-charged bird monsters. I pimp slaps almost every FPS game I've played since then and you can't even mouse look in two axis at the same time.

Back to the GP the "command view" was created for Natural Selection which ran on the Half Life engine which is a fork of the Quake 2 engine. Natural Selection is the greatest FPS game ever made in my opinion mostly because it is the best Aliens game ever made.

"Drake we are leaving"

Amen brother. (1)

IdeaMan (216340) | more than 5 years ago | (#24708393)

NS requires more real teamwork than any other computer game I've ever played.
I recommend trying out the CO servers with extra levels and builder mods too.

Co-op was the big thing with Doom/2. I don't know of any co-op FPS PVM games release recently. Anyone know of a good one?

A friend and I want to build an NS mod that is PVM. The AI is gonna be a pain though, and I have no other friends that can do the content design (map, model, sound etc).

Re:Amen brother. (1)

Lord Kestrel (91395) | more than 5 years ago | (#24709975)

Quake 2 had fantastic co-op, but some of the most fun I've had in co-op was Serious Sam: The Second Encounter. All the Serious Sam games were great, but that one was the best for co-op in my opinion.

Re:Amen brother. (1)

F34nor (321515) | more than 5 years ago | (#24711787)

You might want to check out Unknown Worlds http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/ [unknownworlds.com] NS2 is on the horizon. Ahh... creeping infestation makes me feel like sticking a shotgun down the gullet of and Onos and show those acid driping freaks what hot lead can do.

Re:Gameplay vs. Graphics (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24704631)

I guess it doesn't really matter that many consider the Quake series to be the pinnicle of FPSs, or that Doom popularized the genre in the first place.

Each to thier own, I guess...

Re:Gameplay vs. Graphics (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24698775)

I am surprised that you're thougths are much like my own. If you like teamplay and id's enginges I think a game I'm making will interest you. It attempts to bring teamplay deep into the split second choices of gameplay, which is very uncommon in at least first person shooters. The core idea is enemies you just can not kill if you're alone. Check it out at moddb [moddb.com]

flux capacitor? (1)

acvh (120205) | more than 5 years ago | (#24694479)

pretty funny transcript. all marketing and droid speak, then Carmack trots out the flux-capacitor discussion. and while I haven't played an id game since quake 2, I am still in awe of his genius.

I did not realize... (1)

dotancohen (1015143) | more than 5 years ago | (#24694503)

...that the Israeli Defense Forces were so into animation.

Re:I did not realize... (3, Funny)

pieisgood (841871) | more than 5 years ago | (#24694523)

Not as much as the Iranian missile department.

OK (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24694549)

Could someone post a link to the video game demo without all the smart talkin guys jabberin away.

First 3D, CG animated film? (1)

dontPanik (1296779) | more than 5 years ago | (#24694591)

the first 3D, CG animated film they'll be releasing

I don't understand how Monsters vs. Aliens is the first 3D, CG animated film. Hasn't every CG animated film for the last decade been 3D?

Re:First 3D, CG animated film? (4, Informative)

vux984 (928602) | more than 5 years ago | (#24694741)

I don't understand how Monsters vs. Aliens is the first 3D, CG animated film. Hasn't every CG animated film for the last decade been 3D?

The latest trend is for films to make use of those circular polarized imax glasses, to give you a true 3D stereo optical experience. I presume this will be this companies first such film.

Re:First 3D, CG animated film? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24704189)

And that's in principle similar tech as those blue-red filter glasses used in 1980's. Just using polarisation this time to deliver stereo images.

Lot's of marketing and buzzwords, and I don't expect the hype to last more than a year (a nice way to increase movie audience though). People will soon realize what causes their migrena after 2 hrs spent in the cinema, and btw. it has already been annoying enough with overused LFO sounds causing nausea.

Re:First 3D, CG animated film? (0, Troll)

Bat Country (829565) | more than 5 years ago | (#24708703)

You're a fragile little butterfly, ain't ya? Nausea and migraines in the theater suggests that you should probably just rent the shit later, thus sparing your delicate nervous system. These days it's not even that expensive to get a better picture than you get in anything short of IMAX anyway at home.

This sort of trendy cinema thing has been happening for decades though. I still recall my dad telling me about the first (and last) time he took my grandmother to see a 3d film in the 60s.

He described a scene where a headhunter flings a spear at the audience and apparently my grandmother dove for cover behind the next row.

3D? That sucks! (2, Interesting)

BitterOldGUy (1330491) | more than 5 years ago | (#24694703)

Length, Width, Depth - only? What about the fourth dimension: Time? Are these going to be just static screens? It should be 4D.

Why do I have the feeling that I may have accidentally created another annoying marketing term?

Re:3D? That sucks! (4, Funny)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 5 years ago | (#24695009)

Length, Width, Depth - only? What about the fourth dimension: Time? Are these going to be just static screens? It should be 4D.

With the notable exception of Myst, every video game has a concept of time.

Re:3D? That sucks! (1)

ArsonSmith (13997) | more than 5 years ago | (#24697819)

And WoW, It seems to think of time as a little more abstract. Like, as if I have unlimited amounts of it.

What do you mean there is only 24 hours in a day? that's bullshit I still need that epic ring...

Re:3D? That sucks! (1)

Bat Country (829565) | more than 5 years ago | (#24708765)

Nah, time in WoW (or any MMORPG) is a marketable commodity - how many months it takes you to get sick of the game has a 1:1 correlation with how much money you give Blizzard.

Therefore time is extremely important. SOE decided that the best way to make you invest time was to make everything take forever. Blizzard just decided to make it take forever to get everything.

Pick your poison.

Re:3D? That sucks! (2, Insightful)

4D6963 (933028) | more than 5 years ago | (#24695787)

Length, Width, Depth - only? What about the fourth dimension: Time? Are these going to be just static screens? It should be 4D.

Why do I have the feeling that I may have accidentally created another annoying marketing term?

Well obviously they're talking about 3 space dimensions, which time is not. But if you want to use your same logic you could argue that by 3D they really mean 2D animation.

JC - BORING !! Snore Snore Snore (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24695437)

this carmack character talks of things too boring to mention here

Related topic: 3D Star Wars at SIGGRAPH (5, Interesting)

peter303 (12292) | more than 5 years ago | (#24696141)

Last week's SIGGRAPH [siggraph.org] had almost two days of sessions about 3D in Hollywood- both animation and live action. The recent revival of 3D movies is not just a marketing gimic, but involves a new understanding and implentation of technical details learned since the last 3D fad in the 1950s.

One of the more interesting presentations was In-Three's [in-three.com] talk "Dimensionalization: Creating 3D Movies from 2D Images" in the 3D Cinema [siggraph.org] session. They showed a space battle clip from Revenge of Sith which had been "Dimensionalized" [in-three.com] which is their term for 3D-conversion. They showed dimensionalized clips from other movies with people and nature scenes, the latter which can be challenging. Overall, I thought they were pretty good- just a bit short of have filmed in 3D in the first place.

Dimensionalization involves includes volumizing individual objects and positioning them in a 3D depth-of-field. Some is this is done automatically by the software, and some of it is interative. The interative part includes outlining objects to improve efficiency and quality. It also includes fixing flaws like how to filling in missing "around the edge pieces", and erasing "eye discomfort artifacts" where the the stereo view doesnt quite work right. The director also adds "artistic control" such as highlighting portions of depth of view. In-three showed various examples from a complex Sith space battle scene where the director might want to highlight the action of subset of spaceships. My perception was movie-dimensionalization operated in a similar fashion to movie-colorization 15 years ago with both computer and artistic components.

As of last week the In-Three presenter said that LucasFilm had not commited to dimensionalization of the six movies yet. They also did not mention names of other clients and movies when asked, but I think they are definately doing some.

Re:Related topic: 3D Star Wars at SIGGRAPH (2, Funny)

Jherek Carnelian (831679) | more than 5 years ago | (#24696967)

My perception was movie-dimensionalization operated in a similar fashion to movie-colorization 15 years ago with both computer and artistic components.

Do NOT tell Ted Turner about this stuff!

Your powers combined (1)

icedcool (446975) | more than 5 years ago | (#24696147)

Wow, I would really like to see Carmack work in the cgi industry with some of these guys. Everything he works on is generally next level, even if the concept flops.

Gives me chills thinking about a dream team making a movie or a game or something.

The proper term is "stereo" (3, Insightful)

spitzak (4019) | more than 5 years ago | (#24696467)

Title should read "stereo", not "3D". Right now it is misleading.

When talking about computer graphics, "3D" generally means that the image is rendered from data that represents a 3-dimensional model. As opposed to "2D" where the data is already images.

What they are talking about is depth perception of the final film, and "stereo" is probably the best way to describe that, even if you use a technology that results in more than 2 pictures.

(direct mms link) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24696487)

mms://a1407.v32583e.c32583.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1407/32583/v0001/intelstudio.download.akamai.com/10670/intelstudios/fall_idf/rj/rj.wmv

John Carmack disappointed me (2, Interesting)

diego.viola (1104521) | more than 5 years ago | (#24698165)

I'm a long time Linux user and fan.

I was a id software fan, I liked id because they gave me the feeling that they care about Linux.

I also bought most of their games (Doom 3, Quake 4, etc.) for playing them on my Linux box, but after reading this they really disappointed me: http://www.linuxgames.com/archives/10532

I still like their games though, and I hope they port their upcoming games to Linux (id tech 5 / doom 4, etc). Otherwise I'm never buying their games again.

Re:John Carmack disappointed me (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24701459)

He speaks well within reason. And consider, too, the fiasco that has been the new opengl 3 spec. This leaves game developers with the sole avenue of directx. Which as you know doesn't work under linux.

Re:John Carmack disappointed me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24702721)

Agree.
I'm tired to use wine to play WoW on my Ubuntu, I want to use linux binaries!
Come on id don't leave Linux alone!
Please.

Hmmm... (0, Offtopic)

HitoGuy (1324613) | more than 5 years ago | (#24698813)

Getting Comcast to fess up that they're net neutrality Nazis (Godwin's law! Oh no!) is a lot like getting Darl McBride to confess about being a perjurer and a crook: We all know it, but they'll deny it to their grisly end.

2 Thoughts (1)

dindi (78034) | more than 5 years ago | (#24699641)

1. If ID started to make non-monster-future-horror, but still FPS games (like call of duty, battlefield), I would actually happy to see their products. They are innovative (technologically), but every time I am against monsters I just get likes "yeah right, cannot happen, and an other monster". While playing COD RS, GRAW, BF, I feel like the game was very real and something likely to happen anywhere tomorrow.

2. They are all 3d, still while 10 years ago I was playing on my 3D ( I mean 3D in space) shutter glasses on my CRT monitor (quake, NFS), today I am locked on a screen, with no options to have real 3D rendering (I mean one image for left eye, another for right eye). The technology is there, the resolution is there, so move it.
I better play 1024x768 than full 1080P if it is stereo vision. I know My old PC can render it (at least in 800x600) and my PS3 caould render it even better.

So where is my 2-300-500 VR glasses. I won't think twice getting it, and all the FPS (no monsters please) and driving games for it. I know all those people who shell out $600 for a 360 or PS3 on release day would get it.

So why ???

Re:2 Thoughts (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24701515)

ID doesn't make games. ID makes game engines and ships tech demos, selling them to gamers as games. But their primary market is other game developers.

Where is the link ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24702931)

Where is the link ?

Can't find it on the webpage...

Terminator 4 (1)

Joker1980 (891225) | more than 5 years ago | (#24703067)

Last night i was watching Terminator 2 on tv and started to think about how horrific T3 was. In fact i remembered that the only line in the whole T3 that had my intrest is when Arnie tells Kate that he terminates John Connor (helped by the emotional attachment John has to the unit). It got me thinking though id love to see a terminator 4 with that line as its basis, Done in cgi but not the kiddie style that has become standard, give it a a darker more unique style and the big one....make it for ADULTS. Now i know there is no way in hell any studio would green light that idea but i for one would love to see it. Being CGI you could use Arnies likeness reasonable easily and better than that you could really go to town with the Terminators, Hunter killers etc. We got glimpses of that future war in the 3 films (mainly T2) but an animated/CGI representation of that could be awesome.

And have arnie play a human (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24703625)

but a human who was the basis for the first design of the exoskeleton.

Big girl (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24703615)

Damn that chick is ugly.

And they had a HP Mini in one slide! That thing has a VIA cpu :)

Hmmm (1)

fluffykitty1234 (1005053) | more than 5 years ago | (#24706919)

This seems a lot more like a demo that would be appropriate for nvidia than for intel. Intel better hurry up their larrabbee thing or they are going to get crushed.

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