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id CEO Claims PC Hardware Manufacturers Love Piracy

Soulskill posted about 6 years ago | from the arrrrdware dept.

PC Games (Games) 676

arcticstoat sends a link to an interview with the CEO of id Software, Todd Hollenshead, in which he suggests that hardware manufacturers count on piracy to help drive profits, rather than doing something to prevent it. Quoting: "...I think that there's been this dirty little secret among hardware manufacturers, which is that the perception of free content — even if you're supposed to pay for it on PCs — is some sort hidden benefit that you get when you buy a PC, like a right to download music for free or a right to download pirated movies and games. ...And I think that just based on their actions...what they say is one thing, but what they do is another. When it comes into debates about whether peer-to-peer file-sharing networks that by-and-large have the vast majority, I'm talking 99 per cent of the content is illicitly trading copyrighted property, they'll come out on the side of the 1 per cent of the user doing it for legitimate benefit."

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AC Claims Slashdotters Love Piracy (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24720647)

true enough

first

What a secret! (5, Interesting)

MahJongKong (883108) | about 6 years ago | (#24720659)

That's business as usual, not a "dirty little secret".

Re:What a secret! (3, Interesting)

hedwards (940851) | about 6 years ago | (#24720685)

Precisely, that's been the case for decades. Back 20 years ago, it was pretty much assumed that when you got a computer people would come over with disks of commercial software that would be installed.

It makes it hard for me to take piracy complaints seriously since, the actual rates are probably only a fraction of what they used to be. Sure that means more piracy in terms of numbers, but a much smaller amount in terms of actual percentage of users.

Re:What a secret! (4, Interesting)

PC and Sony Fanboy (1248258) | about 6 years ago | (#24720963)

Exactly. Years ago, when I lived at home, if I bought a computer and it didn't come with software, it was unheard of...

These days, if my parents buy a computer from anywhere that isn't a big box store, they expect it to come pre-loaded with software - even though they havn't paid for it. Otherwise, the computer doesn't "work", and they've asked them to fix it. That is the price for their customer loyalty (and money).

If I buy a computer with no software, it isn't a problem. I'm plenty capable of installing thousands of dollars of pirated software on it - by my self.

Re:What a secret! (1)

Goldberg's Pants (139800) | about 6 years ago | (#24721039)

Software piracy drove sales of the Amiga. Every single Amiga owner I knew, including myself, pirated software. Though most did do the decent thing and buy the good titles. (Anything from Sensible, a lot of Microprose stuff etc...) The fact is being able to get free stuff was a MASSIVE selling point for the hardware.

A lot of people claim that piracy is what ultimately killed the Amiga. That was completely untrue in my experience. What really killed the Amiga was id Software releasing "Doom".

Re:What a secret! (1)

Adambomb (118938) | about 6 years ago | (#24720745)

True, that does seem to be almost a given. PC Hardware manufacturers sales are usually betting on people needing their current line to run the latest and greatest of games. A wider base of PC owners who can access these games at 0 cost adds a nice incentive for these owners to then legitimately upgrade their PC's. That is entirely aside from the fact that being ABLE to pirate is seen by many consumers as a primary function of PCs to begin with.

Heck, this isn't even new. I know more than one person who had purchased their first 300 baud vicmodem simply because they saw they could get to bbs's with unauthorized copies of games (Storm across Europe, M.U.L.E., Elite, etc) so long as there was a local number.

Re:What a secret! (1)

Daswolfen (1277224) | about 6 years ago | (#24721195)

M.U.L.E.

Oh how I miss those days.. I wasted hours upon hours of time playing M.U.L.E., Pirates!, and Mail Order Monsters...

But does it run Linux? (2, Interesting)

Harmonious Botch (921977) | about 6 years ago | (#24720845)

If the claim in TFA were true, wouldn't we see lots of manufacturers pushing Linux? If they see pirated software as having a significant effect on demand for their product, they should see free software as having the same effect?

I suspect that they are just indifferent.

Re:But does it run Linux? (4, Insightful)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | about 6 years ago | (#24720977)

That doesn't even begin to make sense, I'm afraid.

One: Linux is basically unknown. Yes, we as Slashdotters know about it, and it runs on eight bajillion items, but the end user still remains basically ignorant.

Two: Linux doesn't require upgrades (in fact, it could really be argued that upgrading to the latest and greatest is a really bad thing for a Linux user, what with driver issues and all).

Three: Most of that pirated software won't run on Linux (or requires a bunch of screwing around to get working, hello WINE), so using Linux isn't a plus for people who want to avail themselves of that pirated content.

Open source software isn't the same as getting commercial software for free. As much as some of the gnulots around here would like you to believe, most of the time commercial software is still better--for an end user, although not always (or even often) from a technical perspective. (Just look at Windows versus any of the major Linux DEs. It's pretty obvious that Microsoft has UI experts and programmers who are paid to work with them, as opposed to "scratch your own itch" open source programmers. Nobody can, or should try to, force open source programmers to work on them, but there is a corresponding failure of usability inherent in such.)

Re:But does it run Linux? (1)

maxume (22995) | about 6 years ago | (#24721105)

Regarding your second point: Do you mean to imply that poor hardware support is one of the reasons that hardware manufacturers don't push linux?

Re:But does it run Linux? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24720979)

Pirated software gets people to buy hardware because people want the software. Most consumers don't want linux. Manufacturers can't tell people what to want.

Re:But does it run Linux? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24721079)

Manufacturers tell people all the time what to want. It's called advertising.

Re:What a secret! (-1, Flamebait)

blahplusplus (757119) | about 6 years ago | (#24721191)

Not only that but IP industry is the horse and buggy industry of the 21st century, why exactly do these people deserve our protection? Should we have protected the horse and buggy industry from going obsolete?

These people cannot stand their industries getting hit because they love the money, no one cried when manual labor was devalued to near nothing, why should we cry for these people? Supply and demand is harsh and that's why it works.

In any other area if we were capable of replicating matter and energy for food so entire industries would collapse over night, they would be seen as horrible people from trying to stop such technology from being used by people.

Why exactly is this any different? Again: Why should we protect the horse and buggy industry, why do they deserve favoritism when so many other people do not get such things? (i.e. everyone who is or has to work for low wages because of supply and demand).

Supply and demand is only obeyed inconsistently by these people, seems rather contradictory to me.

And you know, so do I (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24720663)

Hell if I paying for software. It's like throwing away money.

years ago Piracy give windows and office a big.... (5, Insightful)

Joe The Dragon (967727) | about 6 years ago | (#24720667)

years ago Piracy give windows and office a big boost to where they are now.

Re:years ago Piracy give windows and office a big. (1, Interesting)

Kamokazi (1080091) | about 6 years ago | (#24721147)

I disagree. Years ago, when PCs cost a hell of a lot more, you actually got full versions of MS Office on your computer, along with a licensed copy of Windows. People building their own systems have pretty much always been in the minority (except a loooong time ago), and pre-built systems from any major manufacturer have always had licensed copies of Windows.

Office stays popular among consumers today probably due to piracy. How many people do you think actually paid $500 for Office Pro? Heck how many paid $150 for Student and Teacher edition? Disks get shared around, borrowed from work or school volume licenses, etc. I would say businesses, in general, pay for most of thier copies of Office, and always have.

Re:years ago Piracy give windows and office a big. (1)

MemoryDragon (544441) | about 6 years ago | (#24721187)

Wrong assumption Windows became popular due to piracy sorry, but it is like that. The office os used to be DOS, Windows then was not bundled it came into the offices over the home piracy when people started to demand Windows... There were other better alternatives there at that time OS/2, Gem, but Windows was the most pirated UI...

Time to start... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24720681)

...pirating id's stuff.

Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (3, Insightful)

aztektum (170569) | about 6 years ago | (#24720687)

Ditch perpetual copyrights. I say give corps 3-5 years to turn a profit and then it becomes public domain. For individuals a bit longer, but if you still can't make money, well, time to go back to plumber school I guess.

What's next? We keep paying doctors every few years for prior services rendered? Or how about the contractor that built your house you continue to live in?

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (-1, Flamebait)

Bodhammer (559311) | about 6 years ago | (#24720791)

This issue is about ownership. Does your argument imply that I can come live in your house in 3-5 years and it is public domain? Hell, we're all coming over!

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (4, Insightful)

Basilius (184226) | about 6 years ago | (#24720833)

There's a huge difference between tangible property and intellectual property.

Don't mingle the two.

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (1, Interesting)

cdrguru (88047) | about 6 years ago | (#24720951)

Tell that to the folks that are paid because if intellectual property.

The problem is, in reality, all "intellectual property" has maybe five years left to it. At that point the non-cooperation between nations will mean that if it isn't stolen and remarketed by someone in the West, it will be done from Asia. The pirates are there today with a goal of eliminating the revenue from digital media as well.

Creativity will NOT be rewarded in the future. Too bad, because we have so little of it anyway.

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (5, Insightful)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | about 6 years ago | (#24720985)

Creativity will NOT be rewarded in the future.

On the contrary. Creativity is precisely what will be rewarded in the future. It is distributors who will not be rewarded because the market for distribution of ideas was obsoleted by the internet. But creativity will always be in demand.

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (4, Interesting)

Gavagai80 (1275204) | about 6 years ago | (#24721075)

Speaking as someone who makes a living from my copyrighted software, I agree that it's different from physical property and I'd like to see a 5 year copyright term on software (20 years might be more appropriate for other media). I've public-domained my five year old stuff anyway.

flipping burgers (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24721169)

There appear to be a lot of slashdot people that either don't have a speck of creativity or value what creativity they have at about the level of flipping burgers at McDonald's. It seems they can't (gimme gimme gimme) wait to enjoy the fruits of (someone else's) creativity, but that the creative person should be treated like someone who flips burgers.

Creating something is not like flipping burgers.

People who can create should not be treated like someone who flips burgers. When a creative person makes something new, (or better) it provides jobs for CEO's and marketing and sales and manufacturing and shipping and so on. After providing the fuel and justification for all of this employment and commerce, why shouldn't the creative person be entitled to remuneration, for as long as all of these other people are benefiting monetarily off of the creative persons efforts and gift?

If you treat creative people like burger flippers (don't kill the goose) they may lose interest in creating anything new (laying golden eggs) for you. Of course, that might suite some people just fine, then they wouldn't have to be consumed with envy.

 

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (4, Insightful)

hr.wien (986516) | about 6 years ago | (#24720889)

Why does every discussion of IP have to include someone pretending to not see the difference between a product with unlimited supply (data), and a product with a supply of one (the GP's house)? You know it's not the same thing, so why the silly act?

Instead, how about you explain how giving data artificial value through copyright is A Good Thing, and stop with this silly argument already?

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (1, Insightful)

PC and Sony Fanboy (1248258) | about 6 years ago | (#24720987)

Agreed!

Using the same argument, only a few people can have christianity. You can't have any religion, because I've taken it all!

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (1, Insightful)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | about 6 years ago | (#24721085)

You know it's not the same thing, so why the silly act?

But it is, in a very real and very important way.

The workman's effort was expended to create that house. The workman's effort was expended to create that software. Why should the programmer not be rewarded for it? (Or are you one of those mouthbreathers who really thinks that a company like Epic is going to write its next Unreal engine based on donations?)

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (1)

wanderingknight (1103573) | about 6 years ago | (#24721137)

But software allows the creator to effortlessly produce a million copies of it. Kind of different from a workman who has to build a million houses if he wants to achieve the same effect.

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (2, Insightful)

Dachannien (617929) | about 6 years ago | (#24721127)

Why does every discussion of IP have to include someone pretending to not see the difference between a product with unlimited supply (data), and a product with a supply of one (the GP's house)?

This is because people (probably starting from the content cabal) have obfuscated the definition of "intellectual property" so that it now colloquially refers to music, movies, games, stories, etc. - the intangible ideas or data which you noted are unlimited (or undefined) in quantity. Ideas aren't property, nor do they resemble property, primarily because they don't exhibit scarcity.

Intellectual property actually refers to the copyrights, patents, or trademark rights themselves. While these items are intangible, they are naturally scarce; in fact, for a particular work/invention/mark, the available quantity is exactly one. In addition, you can do more or less anything with intellectual property that you can with real property: you can sell it, you can rent it, and you can sue people for trespassing on it.

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about 6 years ago | (#24721239)

Because that confusion in inherent in the term. Intellectual Property as a term comes with the built-in assumption that there is some connection between ideas and physical property. This makes it easy to lose sight of the fact that it's an entirely artificial model imposed to further certain economic goals, and should be re-evaluated if it does not further them anymore.

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24720953)

This issue is about ownership. Does your argument imply that I can come live in your house in 3-5 years and it is public domain? Hell, we're all coming over!

No, it's not about ownership. It's about preventing the spread of information. The word copyright says pretty clearly that it is about the right to make copies, doesn't it?

And, throwing in my 2c:
The way forward, I think lies mostly with sponsoring models. When you hear Enya, think Tampax! Piracy would then become an advantage in the competition for mind share.

I think it's no coincident that TV is the media that seems most adapted to, and cool about p2p. Whether you pirate "24" or watch it on tv, the Cisco network is still defending it self.

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24720813)

Sure, let's have those empty shelves ala Kommie land. Gawd I love empty shelves. Makes me proud to be a kommie.

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (0, Flamebait)

nurb432 (527695) | about 6 years ago | (#24720825)

What's next? We keep paying doctors every few years for prior services rendered?

If you use a chiropractor, you are doing that now :)

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (1)

megaditto (982598) | about 6 years ago | (#24720831)

I don't think it will stop privacy outright. But I think it will reduce piracy by making it less morally acceptable than it is today.

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (1)

iminplaya (723125) | about 6 years ago | (#24720941)

What's next? We keep paying doctors every few years for prior services rendered? Or how about the contractor that built your house you continue to live in?

I use the Hobbs meter on the plane I fix, and the odometer on a car. I haven't lifted a wrench since 1982. I'm good for another 50 years. in my dreams!

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (4, Insightful)

LighterShadeOfBlack (1011407) | about 6 years ago | (#24720975)

Care to elaborate how this would stop piracy? Obviously after that date nobody can pirate those products anymore but the vast majority of piracy (at least the piracy that really bothers software developers and movie makers) occurs in the first 6 months of release.

Are you suggesting that people knowing that the copyright will expire sooner will cause them to wait 5 years until things are available legally for free? I honestly don't think that's true, so unless you've got something to back that up I think we can discount that as a valid argument - especially given that 90% of games are available for a fiver in the bargain bin within 18 months of release.

I'm no fan of DRM, Trusted Computing, or any other anti-piracy measure currently employed by major software publishers, but I don't see how copyright law has any tangible relationship to this subject.

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24721063)

I think it would reduce piracy simply by virtue of the massive competition from free stuff.

Games may be less suitable for this than other media though, given it's technological cutting edge aspect.

Though, for say, a movie production company, massive competition from free stuff would probably be worse than what we have now, so I don't see them supporting this solution.

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (1)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | about 6 years ago | (#24721045)

People pay for artists' prints, which while a tangible item are but copies. So we're going to gank them too, right?

What about books? Authors earn royalties off those for years! How DARE they?! (Never mind that a five-year copyright would essentially make most books thoroughly unprofitable--good job killing off what remains of the American market for books!)

Oh, wait. Sorry, I forgot. You do want software you don't have to pay for. The side effects of your desires don't matter, because you don't have to pay for others' work no more and so all is right with the world. :D

I write open-source software, but I still respect creators' rights. And one of those rights is the right to profit from your creation. You want to not have to pay them for it? Then write your own or support those who want to write ones that won't cost you money. Bam, problem solved. But that would require effort, which means that you'll hate the idea. Instead, it'd just be better to fuck over the people who already created what you want. They won't give it to you for free, so obviously they deserve it.

(Software patents, on the other hand, need to die in a fire, because those stifle the ability for others to compete. Not good.)

Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (1)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | about 6 years ago | (#24721073)

Oh. Almost forgot. "For individuals a bit longer"--well, that still screws over most authors. And corporations will just assign the copyright to the corporation's owner or something similar, and you get the same benefits as an individual. Smooth!

ISPs too... (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24720691)

ISPs are not much better with blatant advertising.

"Download movies at top speed!"

Missed opportunity for a follow-up question (5, Insightful)

LighterShadeOfBlack (1011407) | about 6 years ago | (#24720695)

Q: It's the barrier-for-entry thing isn't it? It's really easy to pirate PC games whereas console games are much harder to pirate so the returns are better. What can PC hardware manufacturers do to make it harder for pirates?

Todd Hollenshead: There's lots of things that they could do but [...]

The next question should have been:
Such as what? What exactly are you proposing hardware manufacturers do about software piracy and peer-to-peer networking? You've said there's lots they can do but provided no examples. Give some.

Re:Missed opportunity for a follow-up question (0)

Compholio (770966) | about 6 years ago | (#24720777)

Such as what? What exactly are you proposing hardware manufacturers do about software piracy and peer-to-peer networking? You've said there's lots they can do but provided no examples. Give some.

The easiest is a USB dongle, a lot of the more serious companies just do that.

Re:Missed opportunity for a follow-up question (3, Insightful)

LighterShadeOfBlack (1011407) | about 6 years ago | (#24720835)

Such as what? What exactly are you proposing hardware manufacturers do about software piracy and peer-to-peer networking? You've said there's lots they can do but provided no examples. Give some.

The easiest is a USB dongle, a lot of the more serious companies just do that.

That's a hardware solution, but it's provided by the software developer/publisher. There's nothing preventing Id or any other software producer using USB dongles right now (beyond it cutting into their bottom line of course). Todd Hollenshead seems to think there's something the hardware manufacturers themselves should be doing to make life easier for software developers.

This would be the scary part. (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | about 6 years ago | (#24720801)

I suspect it would be something like a TPM chip, or better support for making sure you're talking to an optical drive (and not Daemontools)...

You know, the kind of thing that most people wouldn't notice, would cause serious headaches for some of us (and potentially lock Linux out -- again)...

And, of course, do absolutely nothing to stop piracy.

The PC isn't a console. That's the fucking point. If I wanted a console, I would have one already -- they're cheap. Probably will get one anyway -- but I'll still play PC games, and there's a reason for that.

But my guess is, that's where they'd love to see us going.

Also, this is coming from id? For shame... One of the reasons I buy id games is I can get relatively DRM-free versions for Linux. (If you stop them from phoning home, they'll still work.)

Re:This would be the scary part. (1)

PC and Sony Fanboy (1248258) | about 6 years ago | (#24721003)

Exactly..Why would anyone buy a computer with a TPM (that can't be removed?)

But.. when you can buy a PC for the same price as a console AND get all your games for free - why buy a console?

Re:Missed opportunity for a follow-up question (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24721177)

Such as not selling computers, but instead selling locked appliances made solely for selling Todd's shit of course. Like PS3 and X360 and television. Why should you people have paper you can write on when we sell books?

Way to go Todd. "Meet the new Lars, Same as the old Lars."

I'm talking 99 per cent of the content is illicitly trading copyrighted property, they'll come out on the side of the 1 per cent of the user doing it for legitimate benefit.

Gosh, maybe because there's something wrong with stopping legitimate use?

And what if you are that one % (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | about 6 years ago | (#24720697)

Really why should they be punished in any way?
I am not pro piracy at all but the simple answer is to bust the pirates or better yet offer the stuff on line for a reasonable price DRM free.
I for one think $.99 is a bit high for one track but I would pay that one TV show for sure.
Hack you could even leave in the ads if it was for free.
As far as software. I actually don't pirate video games. I know that is odd but that is just the way I am. Now I will download cracks for the games I buy just so I don't have to deal with the stupid DRM on them.

"...rather than doing something to prevent it." (4, Insightful)

Perseid (660451) | about 6 years ago | (#24720703)

Since when is it the hardware manufacturer's duty to prevent piracy? Who exactly? Is AMD supposed to stop pirated code from running? Is NVidia supposed to stop the graphics from rendering on a pirated game? My hard drive? My RAM?

Re:"...rather than doing something to prevent it." (1)

hellwig (1325869) | about 6 years ago | (#24720911)

I assume he was referring to something like HDMI or BluRay, where the content is encrypted and only licensed hardware can decode it. I suppose if you banded together with AMD and Intel, you could create something similar for video game content. HOWEVER, there is currently NOTHING in place that would allow your current computer hardware to prevent pirating.

I think the particular CEO that stated hardware manufacturers should be responsible would like to see a reversal of all the progress we've seen in the last 25+ years. Instead of universal architecture that any OS or program can utilize, we should have one CPU manufacturer and one OS. All so that no one can copy the next piece of shit iD releases.

Re:"...rather than doing something to prevent it." (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24721007)

I assume he was referring to something like HDMI or BluRay, where the content is encrypted and only licensed hardware can decode it.

Because we all know how effective such a thing is... ;)

Re:"...rather than doing something to prevent it." (1)

TheSpoom (715771) | about 6 years ago | (#24721113)

Exactly what I was going to ask. Hollenshead just wants them to do his job for him, for free.

fp (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24720717)

fp

boo hoo (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24720719)

ID should start making decent games again, or fixing their engine they sell to other developers. Let's face it, the Wii and 360 are rife with pirate games, the PS3 isn't. All three consoles are selling titles very well. The PS3 hasn't been cracked, the other two have. So what do we see? Lots of games selling regardless of whether pirate games are an option.

Re:boo hoo (1)

WhatAmIDoingHere (742870) | about 6 years ago | (#24720899)

Nobody pirates PS3 games because nobody owns a PS3.

Re:boo hoo (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24721211)

Or maybe -- just maybe -- it could have something to do with the fact that PS3 games use Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray burners still cost hundreds of dollars, blank Blu-Ray discs cost at least $10 each, and the mod-chip (were it to exist) would cost probably at least as much as one game.

A quick search on newegg shows that the cheapest blu-ray burner available is $250. Assume the hypothetical mod-chip costs $50, and discs cost $10 each. Your cost (with n games pirated) is going to be 300 + 10*n dollars. Given that games cost approximately $60 when they are brand new, the most you would pay for n games is 60*n dollars. So you'll have to pirate 6 games just to break even on your investment here. That's not exactly a good deal, especially when you take into consideration the risks associated with mod-chips (faulty installation bricking the console, firmware update bricking the console, firmware update banning your console from PSN, firmware update causing your mod-chip to no longer work, etc).

On the other hand, the 360 and Wii both use DVDs for games. Since DVD burners are essentially standard equipment on PCs, and blank DVDs can be had for as little as 10 cents a piece, you can break even after pirating just a single game.

I can't really see any mod-chip for the PS3 being worthwhile at the present unless it were to allow users to run games from the console's hard drive.

Re:boo hoo (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24721167)

I don't own a PS3 or have any clue about console warez but there seem to be a lot of PS3 releases.
http://www.xrel.to/console-playstation-release-list.html [www.xrel.to]
Those were pretty useless if noone could play them, so I guess it is cracked/modable/whatever after all...

pirated swag = more harddrives (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24720733)

Well think about the more bootleg you have the more harddrive space you need. IE the 50 gb of pirated TV show plus the 20Gbs of music equals a harddrive, and what the easy way to back that up via usb or firewire harddrive?

That explains it! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24720753)

I always wondered why ASUS included those eye patches with their motherboards.

Confused CEO (4, Interesting)

EmperorKagato (689705) | about 6 years ago | (#24720755)

When was the last time your company released quality software?

Re:Confused CEO (1)

Carlosos (1342945) | about 6 years ago | (#24721027)

Commander Keen was pretty good. So that would be 1991 but to be honest they haven't really released quality software in a long time in my opinion. They have been the publisher for some ok products like Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory but overall they only had squeals and nothing really new and creative.

comments are a long way from shareware (5, Insightful)

QX-Mat (460729) | about 6 years ago | (#24720783)

old school id, 3d realms and apogee folk must be cringing at this kind of comment for it was the shareware "revolution" that created the major games industries we see today. if TH starts anti-piracy trolling, someone might have to remind him of his roots: episodic gaming is just the connect equivalent.

Manufactures like sales. (3, Funny)

nurb432 (527695) | about 6 years ago | (#24720809)

Really? No kidding.

Nothing to see here... (0, Offtopic)

perlchild (582235) | about 6 years ago | (#24720827)

Every other content owner makes a similar attack on fair use. The content owners should never get a license to ban the legal trading. What this amounts to is an attempt to get out of the onus of proving the content is infringing in the first place, on a case by case basis. "We're not allowed to kill off fair use, so you must all be pirates"

I'm sorry mister producer, but the law says you have to prove infringement, and please, let's see you just caring about the infringemetn of your product, we'll deal with the other producer later. Cartels be damned.

OF course, at that point he'd have to admit the size of his potential market, and maybe he'd prefer a canadian-style tax on removable media.

You've gotta love the blame game (5, Insightful)

erroneus (253617) | about 6 years ago | (#24720873)

It is complete and utter nonsense that hardware makers should be somehow held accountable for the dissatisfaction of software makers.

Software was free to begin with. The idea that software is a product is the notion that doesn't quite work. Hardware makers follow industry standard specs for the most part and add benefits here and there and ultimately strive to lower costs. It's a classical capitalistic market. Supply and demand rules fit neatly here.

Software, on the other hand, does not. The supply is LIMITLESS and the demand is limited. Software-as-a-product people are attempting to create a market where none naturally exists. But this is generally the case of all products that have a limitless capacity for production.

One fact is known by all players -- lower costs bring more buyers. Software people know this too. Unfortunately, they believe their "product" is worth more than is actually is. The "demand" side of the equation demonstrates that demand levels at the prices they set does not always yield the sale numbers that suppliers would like to see.

In some extreme cases, software people seem to believe that the use of software should determine its value. Ultimately, software people are intending to leverage their software to get a piece of your labor pie. Just look at the cost of CAD or other design and engineering software. The prices are utterly ridiculous! Their expectation is that people who use this software will probably make a lot of money and as such, they want a lot of the users' money. Could you imagine what would happen to the price of other tools simply because they might be used to create some very expensive product or end result? My god, those would be some expensive hammers and nails! It is unrealistic for software makers to demand such exorbitant prices.

Meanwhile, real product makers will go on doing what they do -- give the consumer what they want for the lowest price they can so that consumers will buy more of it.

the blame game (1)

justinlee37 (993373) | about 6 years ago | (#24720897)

You're pretty ironic there buddy.

Re:You've gotta love the blame game (1)

PC and Sony Fanboy (1248258) | about 6 years ago | (#24721021)

The supply is LIMITLESS and the demand is limited.

Well... not exactly. What happens when people stop producing software?

Re:You've gotta love the blame game (2)

ksd1337 (1029386) | about 6 years ago | (#24721117)

He's referring to the supply of a single software application from a single vendor. It's very cheap for the vendor to produce and distribute copies of the application, which is why he's saying it's limitless.

can I make it any more basic? (1)

PC and Sony Fanboy (1248258) | about 6 years ago | (#24721131)

10 print "And I'm saying that Yes, it is limitless. Once it has been created." 20 print yourcomment$ 30 goto 10

Re:You've gotta love the blame game (1)

scuba0 (950343) | about 6 years ago | (#24721201)

Then others will take over.

It wasn't not until CDs and radio came that the industry started to see the potential in something that does not cost them that much to create.

Do you seriously believe that everyone that create things do it for money? Most people start doing what they do because it is fun and interesting, not because it pays a lot.

Re:You've gotta love the blame game (1)

kestasjk (933987) | about 6 years ago | (#24721083)

Just look at the cost of CAD or other design and engineering software. The prices are utterly ridiculous! Their expectation is that people who use this software will probably make a lot of money and as such, they want a lot of the users' money.

CAD tools have to be rich and well designed; engineering companies are happy to pay for software which saves 5% of an engineer's time, because an engineer's time is so much more expensive than any CAD tool.

If you think the prices are ridiculous then don't pay, but don't use that as justification for piracy. You say the supply is limitless, but you seem to be conveniently forgetting that the software has to be developed in the first place.

Meanwhile, real product makers will go on doing what they do -- give the consumer what they want for the lowest price they can so that consumers will buy more of it.

And ironically most of these "real product makers" will be using CAD tools to increase efficiency of development and quality of the product. But ohhh no, don't give any money to those "ridiculous" CAD-tool developers.

Translation (4, Insightful)

dcollins (135727) | about 6 years ago | (#24720877)

"Please give us a hardware-based lockdown solution for software authorization."

Re:Translation (1)

kestasjk (933987) | about 6 years ago | (#24721087)

Why not?

First RAGE then this (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24720901)

Put yourselves in the hardware manufacturers view, do they want to be spending money developing tech that their actual customers don't want. I don't see the main buyers of motherboards been ID software. ID you used to be cool! you supported Linux in 1994! what's happened? (apparently RAGE may not have a linux port)

For hard drives, this is probably true (1)

anonymousbob22 (1320281) | about 6 years ago | (#24720907)

After all, who has 500GB of legally acquired movies and music?
Apple and mp3 player manufacturers are guilty of this too. Even filling a 30gb iPod (~6000 songs) would cost $6000! (assuming $1 per song)

But ... in canada... (1)

PC and Sony Fanboy (1248258) | about 6 years ago | (#24721043)

In canada, we got stuck with a tariff that we pay on blank cds that assumes their use as a pirated music medium.

... Since we pay that tariff, it has made it impossible to take someone to court over personal use stuff - "But... You already thought I was a pirate when you sold the blank CD to me!"

Ah yes, my point: Filling an ipod with music might not be legal ... but you'll never get in trouble for doing so (in canada).

Not their job (3, Insightful)

Rinisari (521266) | about 6 years ago | (#24720909)

It's not the hardware manufacturers' job to police for pirated software. Most of them--Apple being the notable exception--couldn't care less about the software running their hardware. The drivers and whatnot are a means to an end, a necessary bother in order to actually make their hardware usable.

In some cases, they don't even have to do anything to get their hardware working in certain operating systems--the users do it for them!

To say that hardware manufacturers love piracy is a misstatement. Hollenshead's point is moot. Hardware folks just want to sell hardware, just like ISPs just want to sell bandwidth: they don't care what you do with it once you purchase it because they don't need to.

Re:Not their job (3, Insightful)

Naturalis Philosopho (1160697) | about 6 years ago | (#24721089)

More to the point, it's not that manufacturers don't care what you do with your computer, it's that they want you to be able to do anything with your computer. Computer's are not game consoles, they are designed to be programmed flexibly to perform many and varied tasks, and to switch back and forth between those tasks. That makes computers useful and therefore valuable- we'll pay for that capability. If we lock down hardware, then they'll be the equivalent of set-top boxes we rent from the cable companies or an Apple TV- we'll take them out of the box, they'll do one or two things, and that's it. Forever. Boring, and less valuable to the consumer.

Multi-purpose computers will still be available, at a price, but will we have to get a license for them since they can be used for "pirate stuff"?

Re:Not their job (2, Informative)

Dwedit (232252) | about 6 years ago | (#24721143)

ISPs DON'T want to sell bandwidth, they want people to buy their flat-rate service, then use as little bandwidth as possible. ISPs throttle or kick off the bandwidth hogs.

Re:Not their job (1)

kazdoran (1201653) | about 6 years ago | (#24721203)

To say that hardware manufacturers love piracy is a misstatement. Hollenshead's point is moot. Hardware folks just want to sell hardware, just like ISPs just want to sell bandwidth: they don't care what you do with it once you purchase it because they don't need to.

I believe you totally missed his point.

He's mostly pointing out that by having the ability to get the latest, shiniest games at a reduced (or in this case, zero) cost, consumers will tend to prefer the PC as a gaming platform, thus being more susceptible to blow fat wads of cash on the latest, most powerful hardware.

I actually agree, you know... remember Crysis? Some people went nuts and got the latest hardware just to RUN the game smoothly enough, and I have good reasons to believe most of those guys didn't buy the game.

This argument has been tried before (4, Informative)

burris (122191) | about 6 years ago | (#24720931)

Accordingly, the sale of copying equipment, like the sale of other articles of commerce, does not constitute contributory infringement if the product is widely used for legitimate, unobjectionable purposes. Indeed, it need merely be capable of substantial noninfringing uses.

Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc., 464 U.S. 417 (1984) [wikisource.org] (emphasis added)

Here's an idea. (4, Insightful)

El_Muerte_TDS (592157) | about 6 years ago | (#24720935)

Create games that run perfectly on 3 year old computers and people won't spend money on new hardware, and instead (maybe) spend it on software.

Re:Here's an idea. (1, Insightful)

PC and Sony Fanboy (1248258) | about 6 years ago | (#24721057)

Or, stop spending so much money on DRM and put it into game development!

I think the id CEO needs to be careful (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24720949)

You don't want to sound like the trusted computing dicks who think it's their job to make computers which don't belong to their owners anymore.

The real problem (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24720957)

When you have paid for the hardware needed to play those games, you don't have enough money left to pay for the games. You could try to buy low-end hardware so you could afford to pay for the games, but they would be barely playable on a shitty resolution (rather buy a Wii instead :) ). So you choose the lesser of the two evils : pay the high-end hardware and pirate the games.

That's how hardware manufacturers profits from piracy. The solution of this problem would be making games playable on low-end hardware. :D

Shocked! Shocked, I tell you! (1)

baxissimo (135512) | about 6 years ago | (#24720961)

What you say!? Oh noes! Hardware companies are reluctant to act against their own interests?! I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you!

Counting on Piracy? (2, Interesting)

Phillibuster (1232966) | about 6 years ago | (#24720965)

The simpler explanation is that the hardware manufacturers don't want to increase the complexity and cost of their product in such a way that would decrease their product's usability and their customer's satisfaction with the product. Crippled hardware and unhappy customers would likely lead to lower market share, which would equal lower profits. And the hardware manufacturers are in business to make money, not to protect the failures of other company's business models.

This wording hurt me as a loyal customer (3, Insightful)

La Gris (531858) | about 6 years ago | (#24720983)

ID CEO claims may carry some truths, but, for the least, it is as unbalanced as only enlightining the bright side of file sharing.

As a loyal ID Software customer, having baught every one of their games I play, all I can reply to them, is: Please dear brillant market aware ID CEO. Your wording hurt customers like me. Why do you spend time and money dealing with your non-customers, having such twisted juvenile words thrown as FUD in the wild?

It is sad I will have these awkward words in mind , the next time I plan on buying one of your upcomming games.

Numbers and Guilt (3, Interesting)

Sniper511 (1350103) | about 6 years ago | (#24720993)

1) I would LOVE to see where he's getting that "99% of peer-to-peer is piracy" number. Sounds like something he came up with off the top of his head that we're just supposed to accept as common knowledge.

2) Even if that were true (and I doubt it... I'll give him that most peer-to-peer is probably illegal, but 99%...? Really?), is it still fair to punish the 1% of us that use Bittorrent for Linux ISO's, free software, or the odd WoW patch?

3) Even if ISPs did do away with / block bittorrent or other P2P traffic, you really think the geek thinktank that is the Internet wouldn't come up with something else? Hell, you really want to stop piracy, we oughtta do away with this "Interweb" thingy!

Give it up, gang. No matter what you do, somebody's gonna find a way to steal your crap. Deal with it, and move on. Quit punishing the rest of us for it.

car analogy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24721019)

It is like saying that car manufacturers should try to prevent cars from being used in bank robberies.

Piracy isn't the issue (1)

10101001 10101001 (732688) | about 6 years ago | (#24721033)

Q: Steam's great in that it's kind of foolproof but it also allows you to drill down a bit.

Todd Hollenshead: Yeah, and I know there's some guys out there that don't particularly care for Steam, but if you don't like it there's always other avenues to get stuff. It's not that everybody has to buy their stuff on Steam - I don't think even Valve says that. For people who like that sort of convenience and that method of content-delivery, I think it's the best thing that's out there.

Q: Do you think systems like Steam could save the PC platform long-term as digital distribution becomes a more popular avenue for consumers to access content?

Todd Hollenshead: I know that if you go out in the forums that people claim Steam doesn't stop piracy. ...

Ah, so people don't have to use Steam. But, if they do, then the only thing stopping it from being the salvation of the PC platform in the long-term is whether piracy is possible with it.

Here's a clue. The reason the PC platform is questionable in the long-term is because the PC as a platform is fickle. All platforms are, mind you. It used to be that there were tons of computers to market towards. Then DOS tended to dominate the PC gaming scene (with Amiga and Macs on the side). Then Windows even further dominated the PC gaming scene with one platform. The future, though, indicates that fracturing of the PC market is likely to happen.

Fracturing means more large percentages of people using multiple platforms. And since most game developers aren't willing to write for multiple platforms (hence the reason why the heavy Windows monopoly has been so good for PC gaming companies), the future is rather bleak that there will ever be the same sort of unity of PC gaming as there was in the past.

Now, one could use dosbox or flash or some new cross-platform VM to get around that in theory. But, VMs eat into gaming performance. Sure, people might be content on buying old games for nostalga sake. And people might even be willing to buy smaller arcade-ish games (certainly that's working well for MS and Nintendo). But, they can't surplant the main reason for buying PC games over other consoles games*: PCs can be more bleeding edge because they don't have to rely on a reference platform that stays the same, processing power wise, for 3+ years. Ie, the very reason that PC gamers exist would be squashed heavily by having VM overhead.

Even if MS maintains its Windows monopoly, I still see the PC gaming industry as mostly doomed. Consoles keep getting closer and closer to the power of PCs while remaining a lot cheaper than cutting-edge PCs. Consoles are moving further into the PC games turf (MS's push with the XBox and DirectX might have a lot to do with that). And consoles avoid having to fuck around with setup; regardless of the claims of how foolproof Steam is, I really won't buy that until a lot of old games that are still being sold are packaged under Steam. Enough bad experiences with supposedly compatible games is enough to turn a lot of people off from even bothering with PC games. As much as Microsoft tries to work its magic with compatbility modes, it's still not enough to maintain 100% compatibility.

*Admittedly other main reasons would be superior network play (although on the console front, that gap has significantly shrank) and better controls (that might save FPSs but that's about it).

LOL, pirating (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24721047)

Here's all I have to say about that idea: http://cristgaming.com/pirate.swf [cristgaming.com]

Screw the Other Guy and Pass the Savings on... (3, Interesting)

Bieeanda (961632) | about 6 years ago | (#24721061)

Why should they care? If a dedicated gamer pirates $200 worth of FPS games, that's $200 that they can put toward buying the latest video card instead.

And again, why should they care? Piracy is not their problem, and it's not worth their R&D time to bolt 'trusted computing' modules onto their products. Suggesting that they have an obligation to act is like suggesting that firearm manufacturers have an obligation to prevent gun-related crimes.

Or maybe... (3, Insightful)

Coward Anonymous (110649) | about 6 years ago | (#24721067)

HW manufacturers don't understand why they should cripple their products and lose a buck so Mr. Hollenshead can make a buck.

Consoles are the solution (2, Insightful)

jonsmirl (114798) | about 6 years ago | (#24721101)

If he really believes what he says then he should simply stop releasing PC games and go console only. Of course there's a another whole set of problems when you go that route. Sounds to me more like a big case of WOW envy.

DRM in the hands for the consumer will always be cracked. It is pointless to try and chase it.

1.5TB HDDs are totally for everyday computing... (1)

Aereus (1042228) | about 6 years ago | (#24721103)

Because everyone knows regular consumers need a 1TB+ HDD in order to surf Myspace and download a couple of songs on iTunes, am I right? :)

If God didn't want me to (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24721139)

If God didn't want me to he'd not have made this computer for me to do so. Since God has, I will not disappoint. I am only doing my Christian duty, fellow soldiers.

Yeah, right. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24721155)

Its not "helping pirates", its "not being a complete idiot and bankrupting your business"

If for example a motherboard manufacturer would implement a anti piracy/drm chip or such to one or all of their boards people would just buy another product or from another vendor.

Why would anyone in their right mind let a software manufacturer to cripple their computer physically when they deem that your copy is not legit when we know how how accurately and well drm has worked before.

"No internet connection to authenticate? Well we'll just shut down your computer then."

It sounds like he wants the PC to be a console. (1)

argent (18001) | about 6 years ago | (#24721157)

I wouldn't mind seeing a real console PC out there, one with hardware DRM and hardware tilt sensors and all that, so long as I don't have to buy one and pay for all that extra hardware to make my computer less reliable and more likely to break if I install the wrong RAM or what have you. I'm concerned that they'll do that, and then make it so every PC has that stuff in it.

I downloaded Quake 2 with BitTorrent (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#24721179)

I downloaded Quake 2 with BitTorrent recently because my original disk, bought on launch day, is too scratched to work.

BitTorrent is less messy than toothpaste or Brasso :)

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