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Gameplay Videos Released For Fallout 3

Soulskill posted more than 6 years ago | from the pretty-pictures dept.

First Person Shooters (Games) 97

Today Bethesda released walkthrough videos for their upcoming action RPG, Fallout 3. Joystiq has posted the trailers, which contain gameplay footage from the starting area and the city "Megaton," as well as combat scenarios and other features. One fight showcases the targeting system, which they demonstrate by targeting and then shooting off an enemy's arm. Another shows off the ability to create and use improvised weapons. Also shown are the lock picking and computer hacking mini-games, pickpocketing (or depositing something nasty in somebody's pocket), and general nuclear mayhem. Further detail is available at Shacknews.

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I know this will get me modded off-topic, but... (0, Offtopic)

ShadowRangerRIT (1301549) | more than 6 years ago | (#24804695)

*drools*

Re:I know this will get me modded off-topic, but.. (5, Interesting)

ShadowRangerRIT (1301549) | more than 6 years ago | (#24804735)

More seriously, Fallout was one of the truly great RPGs, particularly in the level of freedom it afforded you. I spent the better part of a summer break playing Fallout 2, over and over, in different permutations. I know I still missed maybe 5% of the missions, including an enormous conspiracy tying New Reno, NCR and Vault City together which my friend found and I only saw the edges of. I'm simultaneously excited about the release, while dreading the possibility that Bethesda screwed it up.

Re:I know this will get me modded off-topic, but.. (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24804995)

This is nothing more than another crappy FPS. This is not Fallout. They just stole the branding.

I am incredibly disappointed. They took one of the cleverest CRPGs ever made and turned it into yet another urban combat FPS (of which the market is obviously lacking). Great. Now they have made it impossible for any other real Fallout game to ever be developed.

Re:I know this will get me modded off-topic, but.. (1)

Berkyjay (1225604) | more than 6 years ago | (#24805481)

This is nothing more than another crappy FPS. This is not Fallout. They just stole the branding.

I am incredibly disappointed. They took one of the cleverest CRPGs ever made and turned it into yet another urban combat FPS (of which the market is obviously lacking). Great. Now they have made it impossible for any other real Fallout game to ever be developed.

I totally agree with you. I held out my criticism in hopes that this wouldn't be a Elder Scrolls clone. But the FPS play of the game makes it feel and look like Elder Scrolls. I know the game play mechanics are very different but it looks soooo much like Oblivion. Bethesda could have hit such a homerun if they would have went with the isometric RPG that the original Fallout was. There are no games like that anymore and I think it would have gone over well....and worked on the consoles. But oh well, thats all so much trash now.

Re:I know this will get me modded off-topic, but.. (3, Insightful)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 6 years ago | (#24809611)

Considering that Bethesda already had a homerun with Oblivion, wasn't it smart they based Fallout 3 on it. You have to remember, that although the original Fallout was well regarded, it didn't actually sell all that well. Which is why that are no games like that anymore.

Re:I know this will get me modded off-topic, but.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24834485)

There are no games like that anymore and I think it would have gone over well....

Yeah, because there is no reason why people don't make those styles of games anymore. They are in the business to make money. Pure and simple.

Why don't you go support the mod communities that are trying to make new stories with the fallout engines and quit complaining about what Bethesda does? That would help you and them out a lot more instead of whining "This isn't fallout!!!"

Re:I know this will get me modded off-topic, but.. (1)

ThePhilips (752041) | more than 6 years ago | (#24808901)

+10.

I watched videos and second: this is not Fallout. There is ZERO ZILCH NADA of what made Fallout such great, long lasting experience.

Re:I know this will get me modded off-topic, but.. (1)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 6 years ago | (#24809627)

But it probably has lots of what made Oblivion such a great long-lasting experience.

Re:I know this will get me modded off-topic, but.. (1)

Logiksan (947439) | more than 5 years ago | (#24814377)

I see all your posts lauding Oblivion, and I'm wondering if we played the same game. Oblivion was complete garbage compared to Morrowind. Pretty, excessively bloom-riden garbage, but garbage none-the-less.

Re:I know this will get me modded off-topic, but.. (1)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 6 years ago | (#24816567)

Excessive bloom? Are you talking about the PC version, because the PS3 version uses a toned down version HDR. It's a fine game, though I can see why the graybearded RPG grognards don't much care for it.

ZERO ZILCH NADA (1)

Paolone (939023) | more than 6 years ago | (#24810873)

Except the look and feel, the PIP, the monsters, the environment, the gore, the soundtrack, the senseless violence.

Re:I know this will get me modded off-topic, but.. (1)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 6 years ago | (#24810271)

Your thinking is limited, instead of thinking that Fallout must equal 2D isometric 1990's style RPG, think of Fallout as a "universe" that supports many different styles of gameplay. Like Square-Enix's Ivalice (FF Tactics, FFXI), or TSR's Forgotten Realms, or SOE's Tunaria.

Re:I know this will get me modded off-topic, but.. (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24805075)

Sorry I don't have an account.. so AC.

Anyhow I watched all the vids and the game looks like a nice bioshock/oblivion cross. Doesn't much look or feel much like fallout. Have to play it to see, but in fallout a fight with 3 equally armed and skilled people was hard... this looks like its just a FPS where you knock out thousands if not millions of enemies for no reason at all.

Also not sure how you can do it all without killing people when its just mini dungeons linked all together (like oblivion) that you have to kill * in etc.. just like oblivion..

In fact it looks like its a dumbed down version of oblivion.

Sigh.. hate seing the best strategy games in the world turn into FPS nightmares. Even if it mkaes for a great FPS game.. its sure as shit no turn based strategy game anymore.
(I would kill 5 children and eat 3 live skunks for one of those).

Obvious fallacy in your argument (5, Funny)

Rui del-Negro (531098) | more than 6 years ago | (#24805885)

It's not technically possible to dumb down Oblivion.

Re:Obvious fallacy in your argument (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24806089)

Yes it is, add a WIN GAME button.

Re:Obvious fallacy in your argument (1)

Rui del-Negro (531098) | more than 6 years ago | (#24809973)

That wouldn't make it dumber, it would only make it shorter (which might in fact count as an improvement, because it saves you all the anxiety of thinking "surely, the game must get better at some point?" as you follow an arrow and click through pointless repetitve dialogue, hour after hour after hour...).

Re:I know this will get me modded off-topic, but.. (1)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 6 years ago | (#24809635)

Sigh.. hate seing the best strategy games in the world turn into FPS nightmares. Even if it mkaes for a great FPS game.. its sure as shit no turn based strategy game anymore.
(I would kill 5 children and eat 3 live skunks for one of those).

See, Bethesda wants to actually "make lots of money". Turn based games are niche games and don't "make lots of money" It's 2008, do you really want it to be exactly like 1997's Fallout 1 which didn't really sell well?

Re:I know this will get me modded off-topic, but.. (1)

KGIII (973947) | more than 6 years ago | (#24812749)

Yes. We, well I at least, want it to be similar to the old Fallouts but nothing like Fallout Tactics. This looks like Fallout FPS. I'll still be buying it.

Obviously the mods didn't play the first two... (1)

Chmcginn (201645) | more than 6 years ago | (#24804973)

You're just playing the part of Dogmeat.

why let faggots in your community? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24804859)

they're a bunch of peepee touchers. they may even try to lure your kids into a van to touch them. they also eat shit out of other fags asses. diseased motherfuckers.

Re:why let faggots in your community? (-1, Flamebait)

NoobixCube (1133473) | more than 6 years ago | (#24805033)

If you're going to post that, at least have the intestinal fortitude to post with your name. If you won't own up to your comments, then you obviously believe they aren't worth reading; so why bother posting at all?

Re:why let faggots in your community? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24808009)

Off-topic I could understand, but flamebait?

nice graphics (4, Informative)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 6 years ago | (#24804935)

it felt like a movie in a couple places. I'm not sure how I feel about the transition to FP (as in first person). Fuck it looks nice.

Re:nice graphics (2, Informative)

Loadmaster (720754) | more than 6 years ago | (#24804999)

I'm pretty sure they've stated that you can change it to iso view instead of FP.

Re:nice graphics (1)

ThePhilips (752041) | more than 6 years ago | (#24808987)

I think they have demoed (as usually) the best what game has to offer.

Consequently, whatever was left out of the demo will be half-arsed experience: strategic play, quests w/o killing and well actually playing game without killing anyone.

Greatest feature of original Fallout people are clamoring about that you could have played thru the whole game with only one single battle.

They demoed urban shooter flick with story. I have to conclude that the game has nothing else (interesting) in it.

Original Fallout was original game, one of a kind. Fallout 3 is one of a genre, which already has wast library of games. Do not get me wrong, I like urban shooters. But I was expecting more - I wanted to play something what at least remotely resembles original Fallout game, hard core RPG game with multitude of gameplays, with one of the best RPG mechanics ever developed outside of WotC.

Re:nice graphics (1)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 6 years ago | (#24809667)

I wanted to play something what at least remotely resembles original Fallout game, hard core RPG game with multitude of gameplays, with one of the best RPG mechanics ever developed outside of WotC.

Not going to happen, because unlike the old days, hard core RPG gamers (the kind that used to save before level ups so they'd get max hit points, save before and after EVERY combat, etc), are a much smaller part of the market. Bethesda wants to make money, unlike the original Fallout devs who made a well regarded game that simply didn't sell enough to keep them going.

Oblivion is STILL on the shelves for all three platforms it's available for, that should tell you something.

Re:nice graphics (1)

Truekaiser (724672) | more than 6 years ago | (#24811059)

*chuckles* if you even half expected that from bethesda software, then you are a bigger fool then i thought. all i saw in the game play video is oblivion with guns. the beginning was /exactly/ the same with the 'start off in a dungeon.. excuse me vault'. with a generic /blob/ of a character. surrounded by model's that they probably spent more time on then the rest of the game. you are then greeted RIGHT at the exit of this dun.. i mean vault with a character generator ala oblivion. Once you open the door your temporally blinded.. just like oblivion. your first impression with the landscape is 'wow' just like oblivion. that is until you spend more then a half hour looking about only finding that they mostly copied and pasted the landscape giving you the 'meh' feeling. the interface is just like oblivions except that it now looks like someone slapped a lcd into your eyes. health is not called 'hp' and mana 'ap'. probably just a simple rename to try to appease some fallout fans. the idiot's compass is back underneath the health, I am surprised they did not point it out ala oblivion as a feature to allow you to ignore the c&p landscape and find something to keep you awake. Did i mention the same overuse of bloom lighting is still there making everything have a 'made out of plastic' feel?
calling it a urban shooter would give them too much credit on creating games, i would call it oblivion with guns trying to be a urban shooter while at the same time trying to give at least a thin vainer of rpg aspects. This might fool the players who grew up with games like morrowind or other rpg-like games. but to players who liked or grew up with the dos d&d games, etc. it might feel more then a little like one of the dozens of other shooters.

all in all this is one game i am not going to waste $60 bucks on. if you want real games now, go to the independent market.

Re:nice graphics (1)

ThePhilips (752041) | more than 6 years ago | (#24812459)

all in all this is one game i am not going to waste $60 bucks on.

As much as I'm disgruntled too that we are not getting real Fallout, still as post-apocalyptic "Oblivion with guns" the game might stand.

I do not like RPG mechanics (nor first person mode) of Oblivion, the thingy might just be something I would take a look at.

I would definitely take a look at it if they would at least change name to not to spoil the great franchise which Fallout was.

At the moment there are really few good RPGs are coming out. I'm replaying at the moment Sacred awaiting for Diablo3 and Sacred2. NWN2 was the biggest disappointment of RPG I ever had. Morrowind/Oblivion - I simply didn't liked. That might make the game at least worth checking.

Re:nice graphics (1)

Truekaiser (724672) | more than 6 years ago | (#24814667)

it's not just fallout three. it's the industry in general. daiblo 3 is another example, the health orbs are a example of dumbing down a game because god forbid a game must not always be 'fun' or making the game so simple on purpose that people younger then 10 will have fun playing it when they should not be playing it in the first place.

it's up there as one of the most annoying aspects of modern games, next to being treated like a thief first, pirate second, and a customer a distant third.

Re:nice graphics (1)

ThePhilips (752041) | more than 6 years ago | (#24833311)

Well, you know, Diablo never was praised for being great RPG.

Restarting after death was very easy in original Diablo 1/2 - do not think that Diablo 3 would make that worse.

In world of RPG, Diablo is essentially senseless shooter. Shoot whatever moves. Multi-player also played not last role in its success. If you ever tried to play co-op in NWN1, you would understand that dumb-down Diablo has its niche: simpler game play allows to add more features elsewhere (e.g. multi-player), which are way too complicated in full fledged RPGs. Great advantage: you do not need DM in Diablo. In NWN1 any decent MP module requires to have DM.

Re:nice graphics (1)

Cathoderoytube (1088737) | more than 6 years ago | (#24805385)

Oh my god they brought back gibbing! I thought it was lost forever! But they brought it back! Oh this is the happiest day of my life!

An intelligent game is you! (4, Interesting)

Bragador (1036480) | more than 6 years ago | (#24804937)

They mostly want to show the graphics and the combat. They are reviewing that everywhere but I don't care. I'm awaiting this game for its intelligent side. You can actually play it without having to shoot first and ask questions later. This is rare nowadays...

A game that also rewards intelligent actions? Count me in Bethesda! And I hope other games like that will follow.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24805177)

This game is just Oblivion with guns. There are no intelligent actions like Fallout 1 & 2.

Have you seen the leaked dialogue screens? Witty one-liners thanks to full voice acting!

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

Futile Rhetoric (1105323) | more than 6 years ago | (#24805231)

Bethesda promised an intelligent side for Oblivion, too. Perhaps the reason they are showing off the graphics and combat (which in my humble opinion aren't anything to write home about) is because there really isn't much else to it. The one quest we do know about, i.e. the quest to destroy Megaton, is hilariously bad.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (2, Insightful)

LurkerXXX (667952) | more than 6 years ago | (#24806637)

Why just because as someone raised his entire life in a fallout shelter, as were generations before him, a safe place to shelter from the horrors of nuclear war and the wasteland it wrought, you don't think his immediate reaction to a nuclear weapon would be "sweet, let's set it off!"?

Uh, yeah, me neither. The storyline sounds pretty bad. It's doesn't seem like it's going to be a good installment of the Fallout serices. Ah well, at least the graphics are pretty.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

Pranadevil2k (687232) | more than 6 years ago | (#24807773)

To be fair, what they show in the videos is only a very brief snippet of the time I expect you are intended to spend in Megaton. They most likely wanted to show that your decisions in the quests you accept and complete have very obvious and massive changes to the game's story - he didn't have to set up the bomb (He actually had an option to defuse it!) but they wanted to show everyone the nuke scene.

He also only talked to 3 people in the town, the sheriff, a girl who obviously had a quest he refused to take, and the guy with the bomb. Fallout is about exploration. Wanna take bets on whether there are more NPCs with quests in Megaton?

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

ThePhilips (752041) | more than 6 years ago | (#24809037)

In original Fallout you could have solved quests without ever shooting at anybody. Fallout 3 is plain shooter in that aspect, quests do not really matter: shoot first, ask questions later. And you have to shoot because you get shoot at first too.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

Rakishi (759894) | more than 6 years ago | (#24817517)

If Fallout 1/2 I could slaughter whole town, become a slaver, sell off my own wife/husband and in general do very horrible things. That's part of the game series. Your options include a lot more than just mild good and mild evil. After all a psychopath can be born anywhere and if you want to then your character can be one of them.

Sure you may have been born in a vault but that's why you wouldn't care much about nukes. After all they are just stories, you never saw one or even saw the effects of one. That's the type of person whose most likely to detonate a nuke simply because he hasn't experienced the horrors of one even second hand.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (3, Interesting)

grumbel (592662) | more than 6 years ago | (#24805877)

A game that also rewards intelligent actions?

Well, I am currently a few hours into Fallout1 and I am still waiting for that one to reward intelligent actions. So far each and every quest (all three of them or so, quest seem to be incredible sparse in that game) has got me spawned right in front of the enemy with exactly zero choice to an intelligent approach, since the shooting starts instantly. Half the people and creatures I am supposed to fight are not even reachable via the worldmap, instead they exist in magical places that you can only reach when an NPC guides you there (aka. instantly teleports you there and when you exist you get teleported back). Reading through a few FAQs also left me rather puzzles, since most of their "tips" are based on pure try&error and abuse of the save system (save before you steal and if it doesn't work, load and try again..). And given how many times I died just because I tried to talk to the wrong person or asked a wrong question makes it clear that a save before pretty much every action is required for survival.

So far I am not exactly impressed by Fallout1 and quite close to ditching it, since the gameplay just doesn't make a hole lot of sense and the time limit and constant threat of death even on the tiniest misstep of course makes exploration a pain.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (3, Interesting)

nomadic (141991) | more than 6 years ago | (#24806105)

I've been playing Fallout 1 for the first time as well, and while I like it I have some complaints too. The thing that frustrates me is the character conversation trees didn't make too much sense; I kept getting dialogue options to ask about things I've never heard of. The combat is definitely hard in the beginning until you get decent equipment, and most of the hard fights involve several saves/restores. I won't spoil anything, but I will say the exploration gets a lot better not too far into the game.

Last RPG I played was Planescape so maybe I was just spoiled by that.

There also doesn't seem that much to the game questwise; I think I'm almost done and I haven't really been playing that long.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 6 years ago | (#24806195)

Fallout and Fallout 2 are fairly buggy games. You may have heard of something via a trigger that didn't actually show the dialogue; I know that happens in FO1.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 6 years ago | (#24806271)

Well that could definitely be it. It's common enough to impact my enjoyment of the game, unfortunately. And unless I'm just missing a lot there just doesn't seem to be that much to the game.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 6 years ago | (#24810043)

Some of it's probably nostalgia, sure. Keep in mind that there was nothing like Fallout before, nothing with the same level of panache and style in everything it did. The neo-50's art theme, the very stylized over-the-top violence, all of that created a game that remains indelible upon those who played it when they were young.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 6 years ago | (#24810181)

Some of it's probably nostalgia, sure. Keep in mind that there was nothing like Fallout before, nothing with the same level of panache and style in everything it did. The neo-50's art theme, the very stylized over-the-top violence, all of that created a game that remains indelible upon those who played it when they were young.

Hmmm, maybe, but I'm not sure. Fallout was kind of after my time, mind you, I grew up playing CRPGs in the late 80's early 90's, and I can still load up Wasteland and have fun with it. As a 1999 game, Fallout seems kind of a recent game to me. But maybe that's the problem, when you grew up on the classics your standards are pretty high...Though like I mentioned before I recently played, and loved, Planescape:Torment. Now with Fallout I like the graphics and mechanics, my problem seems to be primarily with the story, and quest and dialogue scripting, which are inconsistent and buggy. And the story is totally taken from Wasteland...

Re:An intelligent game is you! (2, Interesting)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 6 years ago | (#24813031)

Ergh. Everyone always says "but Wasteland!" I've played Wasteland. Wasteland is a favorite of mine. And Fallout, sir, is not Wasteland. (Okay, I completely butchered that quote.) Seriously, though--Fallout is a spiritual successor to Wasteland (though far superior in most respects, including the most important one--usability); the developers have said as much. Complaining that they co-opt the background (not the story, the setting) is kind of silly.

I played Wasteland for the first time in 1993 or so. I think Fallout beats it all hollow. And I stand by my previous statement--there was nothing like Fallout before. Nothing with the same sense of panache, humor, and style in a playable package. Not even Wasteland, fun though that was.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 6 years ago | (#24813411)

I am familiar with the fact that Fallout is the spiritual successor to Wasteland, but my main complaint is that the story is too similar, not the setting. I made no complaint about the setting.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 6 years ago | (#24813781)

The story's not particularly similar at all...Fallout's a MacGuffin story (as is FO2), Wasteland really isn't.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 5 years ago | (#24814177)

Well the waterchip purification chip part maybe, but that's only a small fraction of the total game. I've been playing the game on and off all day and while I still think it's a good game, some parts are really starting to annoy me. Like the fact that the important NPCs are so static; if I just discover something important, the head of the Brotherhood or the Vault Controller should be able to discuss the matter with me.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 6 years ago | (#24815725)

True. There's another side to that coin, though--that kind of completeness introduces way more bugs and problems like the ones you decry. ("Ask About..." has a surprising amount of stuff, though.)

Both Fallout games were absolutely rushed out the door. Doing what you suggest would make it even more unfinished. Which sucks, but there you go.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 6 years ago | (#24819173)

True. There's another side to that coin, though--that kind of completeness introduces way more bugs and problems like the ones you decry. ("Ask About..." has a surprising amount of stuff, though.)

I do like the Ask About part, that's how we did it in the olden days with games like Ultima.

Both Fallout games were absolutely rushed out the door. Doing what you suggest would make it even more unfinished. Which sucks, but there you go.

That's probably a lot of the problem, but honestly it's not something I can easily forgive. Interplay has been around since the early days, they usually make very good, very polished games, and if they released a game before it was ready then they should be blamed for that. A game that suffers because of inadequate work can be just as bad as one that suffers because the developers are just bad at what they do (again, not that I'm saying Fallout is a bad game, it's a very good game). I do plan on playing Fallout 2 if I can find a cheap copy, I've heard that it's actually better.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 6 years ago | (#24821965)

FO2 is both better and worse. Better in that they fixed a few bugs and the story's more developed and different...worse in that it's a little more unfinished.

(And while it's not terribly germane to your point, keep in mind that Interplay didn't develop Fallout in-house; they were armlocking Black Isle to get it out the door for something like four months before they finally released it. This is one of those cases where I personally can't fault the developer a bit and very much do wish a pox upon the house of the publisher.)

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 6 years ago | (#24835457)

FO2 is both better and worse. Better in that they fixed a few bugs and the story's more developed and different...worse in that it's a little more unfinished.

Well I'll take the better story even if it's a little buggier. Just finished Fallout a little while ago (well, the easy way, by detonating the nuclear bomb; I assume there's a more elegant way to finish it so I'll try to get an ending that doesn't make me a mass murderer).

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 6 years ago | (#24846259)

There's a "better" ending, but the results are the same.

Hint for you: lots of intelligence, the Empathy perk, and talk to Vree before partying down upon the Cathedral.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 6 years ago | (#24846363)

Oh, and get the Restoration Patch [nma-fallout.com] before playing; it fixes most of the bugs.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (2, Informative)

ShadowRangerRIT (1301549) | more than 6 years ago | (#24806291)

The dialogue trees are generally better in FO2, and the free-form play is on better display there as well.

If you do pick up FO2, make sure to get the unofficial Fallout 2 patch [nma-fallout.com] (on top of the 1.02 patch if you didn't buy version 1.02) as it fixes most of the quirks in the second game.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24815027)

Or don't get it, because it's Windows only.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

coachellamasada (1350549) | more than 6 years ago | (#24806249)

Well, it is ten years old. Games age quickly and you'll never feel the magic we did when it was fresh and new and we'd never played anything quite like it before. Not to mention, the graphics actually looked cutting edge and we were used to the awkward controls back then. I wouldn't expect anyone to pick up Fallout, Diablo, Starcraft or Baldur's Gate and really feel the same magic as when they were revolutionary and new.

That said if you give Fallout some more time and patience everything will start to click. There are plenty of quests and all, but it is a game that takes a lot of trial and error and exploration to really get going. As far as save-and-redo, that's endemic of the RPGs of that time- again, you had to be there then.

Also, since you said you checked guides I'll give you one slight spoiler, which is that you shouldn't feel too pressured by the time limit.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (2, Interesting)

grumbel (592662) | more than 6 years ago | (#24808841)

Well, it is ten years old. Games age quickly and you'll never feel the magic we did when it was fresh and new and we'd never played anything quite like it before.

I got addicted to XCom:UFO pretty quickly and that is even older, same with RAMA, Gabriel Knight and quite few other older games that I played recently. I mean, sure, it might never feel like back in the day, but I don't care as long as it still plays well. Graphically I actually like Fallout quite a bit, sure 256 colors make it look a little grainy, but other then that it looks perfectly fine, sound is fine too. Its the gameplay part that gets annoying, since it seems to be based much more around just trying everything till you by chance find something that works, then exploring the world and acting intelligently and well this "How the heck am I supposed to know that?" feeling is just not exactly very motivating.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 6 years ago | (#24809711)

As far as save-and-redo, that's endemic of the RPGs of that time- again, you had to be there then.

Anal RPG geeks who had to have MAX stat boosts at every level up, saved before and after every combat, and re-rolled their characters until ALL their stats were perfect are NOT the kind of people who should be catered too in game design. BAD designers, bad bad! What was worse was when they began designing the games with the expectation that the players would do that.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (5, Interesting)

Das Modell (969371) | more than 6 years ago | (#24807309)

Well, I am currently a few hours into Fallout1 and I am still waiting for that one to reward intelligent actions. So far each and every quest (all three of them or so, quest seem to be incredible sparse in that game) has got me spawned right in front of the enemy with exactly zero choice to an intelligent approach, since the shooting starts instantly.

Not sure what this is about. One of the earliest quests you get is rescuing Tandi from the raiders, and it has the following solutions (taken from here [wikia.com] ):

* Kill them all and break her out
* Fight Garl in unarmed combat for her
* Buy her from Garl
* Intimidate Garl for her release
* Quietly kill the two guards in back and pick the lock on Tandi's cell.
* This one doesn't work 100% of the time, but if you enter the Raiders area wearing a Leather Jacket, have 10 ST and 10 EN and are male, the raiders will think you are Garl's father who Garl apparently killed to take control of the Khans. You can try and bluff Garl with this ruse and demand Tandi's release.

Half the people and creatures I am supposed to fight are not even reachable via the worldmap, instead they exist in magical places that you can only reach when an NPC guides you there (aka. instantly teleports you there and when you exist you get teleported back).

This isn't the norm.

Reading through a few FAQs also left me rather puzzles, since most of their "tips" are based on pure try&error and abuse of the save system (save before you steal and if it doesn't work, load and try again..).

You don't have to steal things, it's just one option. Obviously getting caught has to have some consequences, so reloading becomes an issue. However, the higher your steal skill is the more likely you are to succeed, and there are also perks that will make it easier to steal. Approaching your target from the side or the rear increases your odds, and the size of the object you're trying to steal is also a factor.

And given how many times I died just because I tried to talk to the wrong person or asked a wrong question makes it clear that a save before pretty much every action is required for survival.

So far I am not exactly impressed by Fallout1 and quite close to ditching it, since the gameplay just doesn't make a hole lot of sense and the time limit and constant threat of death even on the tiniest misstep of course makes exploration a pain.

This is what happens when a game isn't dumbed down for the lowest common denominator. You have to be careful and think about what you're doing.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24808757)

you mean rather seeing movement and killing everything which is in a one univers radius of you. besides if you want to survie better think how they are going to react first before doing something. i do agree fallout 1 isnt that good but i love fallout 2 its much better and the npc dont anger as easily but if you are stupid you can get killed quickly.

this seris is about thinking how to survie in this world rather than how many more do i have to kill.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

grumbel (592662) | more than 6 years ago | (#24808793)

* Kill them all and break her out
* Fight Garl in unarmed combat for her
* Intimidate Garl for her release
* Quietly kill the two guards in back and pick the lock on Tandi's cell.
* This one doesn't work 100% of the time, but if you enter the Raiders area wearing a Leather Jacket, have 10 ST and 10 EN and are male, the raiders will think you are Garl's father who Garl apparently killed to take control of the Khans. You can try and bluff Garl with this ruse and demand Tandi's release.

The problem is that none of that will work if my character doesn't have the right stats and there isn't even a way to find out how good my character needs to be to even have the slimmest chance of success for any of that. So after getting killed trying the first, I got killed trying the second and I think the third one got me killed too, so I bought her ought which seems to be the only think that actually worked with my character, didn't feel very intelligent doing that, was just try&error finding something that actually works. And the last one sounds awfully random, how the hell I am supposed to find that out?

You don't have to steal things, it's just one option.

It works the same way with attacking people, with buying stuff and even with dialog options and when a dice roll decides if you will meet instant death or have a successful quest that is very annoying.

This isn't the norm.

It still happens often enough. Now of course my opinion might not be very objective, since I am currently stuck in the Hub with two quest that work exactly that way and because of that I don't stand a chance to completly any of that and well, thats the only quest I have currently, so I am in dire need for new quests, which is pretty frustrating.

You have to be careful and think about what you're doing.

Except of course that the game gives you no friggen hint as to how dangerous something is, so its down to just trying the options and dieing a lot. I don't even mind the dieing part, since that is not much different in many other games either (XCom:UFO, Gothic, etc.), but in those I always felt like I died because I was careless, in Fallout I always felt I died because I didn't stand a chance in the first place.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

Das Modell (969371) | more than 6 years ago | (#24808953)

The problem is that none of that will work if my character doesn't have the right stats and there isn't even a way to find out how good my character needs to be to even have the slimmest chance of success for any of that.

Your character is not supposed to be able to do everything (at least not well). You can create balanced characters that can do most things, but there will always be something you won't be able to do or aren't good at.

So after getting killed trying the first, I got killed trying the second and I think the third one got me killed too, so I bought her ought which seems to be the only think that actually worked with my character, didn't feel very intelligent doing that, was just try&error finding something that actually works.

I never had trouble clearing out all the raiders. If you're having problems with that you can ask Ian in Shady Sands to join you.

And the last one sounds awfully random, how the hell I am supposed to find that out?

You're not. There are lots of things you'll never see or know about if you don't have the right build.

It works the same way with attacking people, with buying stuff and even with dialog options and when a dice roll decides if you will meet instant death or have a successful quest that is very annoying.

There is of course a random element to combat, but it's based on stats, skills, equipment and tactics, not random chance. Bartering and speech are based on stats and skills, not chance.

Except of course that the game gives you no friggen hint as to how dangerous something is, so its down to just trying the options and dieing a lot. I don't even mind the dieing part, since that is not much different in many other games either (XCom:UFO, Gothic, etc.), but in those I always felt like I died because I was careless, in Fallout I always felt I died because I didn't stand a chance in the first place.

I don't remember ever having this problem.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

grumbel (592662) | more than 6 years ago | (#24808991)

Your character is not supposed to be able to do everything (at least not well).

Thats all fine, but how do I find out what I can do other by trial&error? Take the hand to hand combat choice for example, how am I supposed to figure out that I won't stand a chance in that one? Is there anyway to query the enemy stats that I am missing?

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

Das Modell (969371) | more than 6 years ago | (#24809145)

How good are you at H2H? How much strength and endurance do you have? If your character is a limp-wristed intellectual then you should already know that trading punches with the leader of a raider group is going to end in tears. Much like in real life.

The level 3 perk Awareness will tell you how much hitpoints a target has and what weapon they have, but you can't know what stats or skills someone has.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

grumbel (592662) | more than 6 years ago | (#24810289)

How good are you at H2H? How much strength and endurance do you have?

None of that tells me how strong I am in relation to the enemy. Are five points enough? Six? What about having seven? How am I supposed to know how strong is strong enough to fight a random person in the game? Since its all just points it is impossible to tell which means exactly what, unless you have some prior knowledge from already playing the game or doing the load/save trick. This simply isn't a Lost Vikings or whatever where each character has well defined properties that make it easy to tell who can do what. And then of course the whole dice rolling comes into play, even if I am being strong enough I might lose and even when being to weak I might win. Load/Save trickery of course makes it easy to shift the odds, since you can simply save/load till the dice comes out the way you like, which is how I just defeated a Deathclaw, but that feels certainly more like cheating the game then playing it. And then of course there still is the timelimit which of course makes it quite a bit tricker to level up, since you can't just run around randomly killing critters on the big map, thus encouraging load/save trickery instead of honest playing.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

Das Modell (969371) | more than 6 years ago | (#24810865)

So basically what you want is a game where you know everything in advance, where no random variables exist and where it's never possible to fail.

There's nothing wrong with the game, it's your attitude and expectations that are the problem.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

grumbel (592662) | more than 6 years ago | (#24811379)

So basically what you want is a game where you know everything in advance, where no random variables exist and where it's never possible to fail.

No, what I want is a game where there is a way to figure things out that doesn't involve dieing and load/save. Where facing an unbeatable enemy gives the option to run away. Where I am not teleported right into the enemy cave without a way to scout the situation first. And where randomness is limited to such a degree that it doesn't mean the difference between winning and dieing, without giving me the choice to intervene.

There's nothing wrong with the game, it's your attitude and expectations that are the problem.

Quite seriously, even when one enjoys the game, which I even do to some degree, there after all isn't much with a similar setting, its bloody obvious that there is a shitload of stuff that is wrong with the game.

I certainly like what the game is trying, but the implementation is flawed in quite numerous ways.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

Das Modell (969371) | more than 6 years ago | (#24811541)

In Fallout you have to figure things out. There is no tooltip telling you the power level of an opponent. If you're looking at a bunch of dudes with combat armor and automatic weapons and all you have is a leather jacket and a pistol, then it's really up to you to realize that you're going to die if you attack them. That said, even very difficult fights can be overcome if you know what you're doing.

Randomness can allow you to, say, instakill an enemy with a critical shot to the head, but it works both ways. It's no different from an enemy getting a lucky headshot in a FPS game.

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

cyborch (524661) | more than 6 years ago | (#24807669)

Is it just me or does parent come off as an obvious astro surf?

Re:An intelligent game is you! (1)

OneMadMuppet (1329291) | more than 6 years ago | (#24808671)

I had a 30 minute walkthrough with Bethesda in Leipzig last week. The first thing I noticed was how polished the game was. Bethesda have left the game very open, you certainly don't have to shoot your way through everything. I got the feeling that most of the combat will/has to be done through the bullet time system though.

Fallout or Oblivion? (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24804981)

To me, that just looked like Oblivion with different skins and maps?

Cedega, or a VLA key, here I come. (1)

T-Ranger (10520) | more than 6 years ago | (#24805105)

Wow. Just wow.

Very few games themselves have ever triggered me to do much hardware purchasing. Sure, after playing through _all_ of Doom 3, I got a new video card. But this, this is just amazing. If it runs under Cedega, I'm all over that. If not, fuck.. It'll be the first time.. First time this century.. that I'll slap Windows on my personal home system.

Re:Cedega, or a VLA key, here I come. (2, Funny)

cyborch (524661) | more than 6 years ago | (#24807747)

If you're thinking about buying extra hardware for a game, why don't you get a consol in stead and keep windows off your computer? You might even go for the slightly less evil PS3 and keep microsoft out of your house that way ;)

Re:Cedega, or a VLA key, here I come. (2, Insightful)

TempeTerra (83076) | more than 6 years ago | (#24808875)

That's generally good advice but Fallout 3 may be a special case, as Oblivion was, where the PC version has access to a HUGE community mod base that will be unavailable for the console versions. Worth looking in to before making any commitments.

Re:Cedega, or a VLA key, here I come. (1)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 6 years ago | (#24809821)

Only the PS3 version got the shaft in the additional content department it has only Shivering Isles and Knights of the Nine.

But I must say that I am not overly fond of the existence of the mod community. Why? Because it gives professional developers the justification to slack off! Think about it, if there weren't any amateur modders and patchers the pro's would have more incentive to get it right and bug free the first time, just like they do on consoles. And they'd also have more incentive to release new games more often, just like console devs do. There's no incentive for them to do new games if everyone is playing a mod of a five year old game and doesn't buy new games.

Re:Cedega, or a VLA key, here I come. (1)

ThePhilips (752041) | more than 6 years ago | (#24809173)

Ha-ha-ha! If I had mod points, I would have modded you up "Funny"!

True: what kind of idiot would trade true gaming - PC gaming - for a gimmicky controller and games which generally belong to genre "button mashing TV show. sit tight and watch." Ha-ha!!!

[/sarcasm]

Re:Cedega, or a VLA key, here I come. (2, Funny)

tprime (673835) | more than 6 years ago | (#24813841)

why don't you get a consol in stead and keep windows off your computer? You might even go for the slightly less evil PS3 and keep microsoft out of your house that way ;)
Did I miss a memo, I thought that Sony was more evil on slashdot this week instead of microsoft? I can never keep up anymore now that Apple and Google have joined the evil fray.

FPS players (3, Interesting)

Caboosian (1096069) | more than 6 years ago | (#24805329)

I think a lot of FPS players are going to be tricked into buying this ("Wow! Look at those graphics/setting/review score/whatever"), and be very distraught once they learn that it is not an FPS. Sure, there will be those who will like the fact that your shooting skills/power are based upon your stats, but I can see those who are used to guns doing a set amount of damage with a set amount of accuracy being very turned off by this game.

Regardless, I think it looks fantastic, and moves a classic series in the right direction (the isometric viewpoint no longer feels right for this series, IMO). Hopefully it can shake off the "Oblivion with guns" moniker - and properly execute the setting. The new viewpoint/gameplay coupled with the classic Fallout setting/themes (very dark, lots of black humor) looks really promising. There's a lot of ways to mess this one up (especially with regards to the setting!), but it looks like Bethesda did their homework. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

An FPS with stats is still an FPS (5, Insightful)

Rui del-Negro (531098) | more than 6 years ago | (#24805825)

You mean like RPG players were tricked into buying Oblivion with talk of a "living world" and "revolutionary AI", only to get a first-person combat game with auto-levelling enemies, quests designed for 8 year olds with ADD and an interface designed for the Xbox?

I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect that, with Fallout 3, the FPS gamers "tricked" into buying it will turn out to be the ones that weren't tricked at all.

The demos show a cross between Oblivion and Half Life 2 with a hint of Max Payne. Might be fun to play, and doesn't look bad (then again, there are better-looking games out now), but it's definitely not looking like an RPG (and that has nothing to do with the POV; many milestone RPGs had a 1st person perspective - Dungeon Master, Ultima Underworld, etc.).

Hopefully this time Bethesda will at least have the game properly playtested (Oblivion was only tested internally), and catch the most obvious design / gameplay bugs.

Re:An FPS with stats is still an FPS (1)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 6 years ago | (#24809307)

quests designed for 8 year olds with ADD

Could you explain that reasoning?

an interface designed for the Xbox?

When it comes to UI, simpler is better. Why have one button for character stats, another button for quest log, another button for inventory when you can have ONE button and use a tabbed interface. That also lets the developer port it to other platforms, more platforms more sales. I'm playing the PS3 version myself, which is a "Greatest Hit" now, it's a fine game. Reminds me a bit of the PS2 Drakan game.

Re:An FPS with stats is still an FPS (3, Insightful)

Rui del-Negro (531098) | more than 6 years ago | (#24810341)

Could you explain that reasoning?

Let's see, maybe it's the fact that, through 99% of the quests, you have a great big arrow pointing at your next objective, and can basically complete it without even looking at the game world (except to kill monsters).

Maybe it's the fact that even when a quest consists of something like "You must find the secret code to open the door... which is two plus two.", some character standing by the door will tell you "Hi there. The code is four.".

Maybe it's the fact that, each time you complete an intermediate objective, a dialog box pops up with your thoughts ("I have found the door that leads to the secret base." - How the hell do "I" know that? The door looks like any other door! Shouldn't I have to actually explore to see if the secret base is there or not?).

The game doesn't just "hold your hand". It picks you up, carries you around and keeps yelling at you, telling you what's happening in case you suffer from short-term amnesia.

Why have one button for character stats, another button for quest log, another button for inventory when you can have ONE button and use a tabbed interface.

Because I already have a "103-tab interface" sitting in front of me (called a keyboard), I have more than one finger, and would like to be able to get to the screen I want without having to move the cursor, look at several virtually identical icons, and click 4 or 5 times each time I want to change a spell or look at the map.

Hell, the game won't even let you add a description to your saved games or add comments to the map (even Ultima Underworld let you do that, and UU came out in 1992), that's how "anti-keyboard" it is.

I'm playing the PS3 version myself, which is a "Greatest Hit" now, it's a fine game.

Oh, if it's a "greatest hit" it must be good. Glad you're enjoying it. And thanks to the auto-levelling enemies and loot, you can be sure that the experience you're having now will be exactly the same experience you'll have through the next 400 identical quests of the game. Never too easy, never too hard. Why feel vastly superior to an enemy or why feel afraid of a big monster when they can all feel exactly the same? There's nothing quite like improving your magical abilities by 10% and knowing that all the enemies just had their magic resistance increased by 10%, too. The fact they used the same 5 voices for all NPCs also helps give the game a sense of comfortable "unity".

Speaking of which, I've just noticed some of the exact same voices in the Fallout 3 demo, so the transition should be easy.

Don't get me wrong; I think Oblivion looks very nice and is a pretty decent "medieval combat" game. Just as I'm convinced that Fallout 3 will be a decent shooter. But Oblivion is not even close to the believable, consistent, "living" RPG that Bethesda spent years promising, and - I'm convinced - neither will Fallout 3 be.

Oblivion is a 3D Diablo clone with some serious balancing issues and Fallout 3 will be a nice-looking first-person shooter with "stats", (repetitive) dialogues and a bigger world than Half-Life 2, but inferior to HL in every other aspect (because Bethesda simply don't have visionary designers like Origin had, and don't spend three years playtesting and refining like Valve does).

Re:An FPS with stats is still an FPS (2, Interesting)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 6 years ago | (#24816459)

Let's see, maybe it's the fact that, through 99% of the quests, you have a great big arrow pointing at your next objective, and can basically complete it without even looking at the game world (except to kill monsters).

Complex 3D worlds, especially those with lots of scenery, are easy to get turned around/lost in. It was either have a compass with objectives and fast travel or have players constantly complaining about getting lost trying to find tiny little dungeon entrances. I'm glad the feature is there, because I hated getting turned around/lost in games without maps/waypoints, some people might consider map making with graph paper fun, I consider it drudgery.

Maybe it's the fact that, each time you complete an intermediate objective, a dialog box pops up with your thoughts ("I have found the door that leads to the secret base." - How the hell do "I" know that? The door looks like any other door! Shouldn't I have to actually explore to see if the secret base is there or not?).

Well if an NPC tells you they think the Bandits have a secret base somewhere NW of town and if you head NW of town and find bandits and a cave/fort, wouldn't you think that was the secret base?

Because I already have a "103-tab interface" sitting in front of me (called a keyboard),

Yes, but you cannot use them all effectively. If your left hand is on WASD and your right on your mouse, can you hit "\" or "=" without taking moving a hand from either position? Can you easily walk slowly, in a diagonal direction, and then jump, or do you run out of fingers or find the position required cramps your hand.

I have more than one finger, and would like to be able to get to the screen I want without having to move the cursor, look at several virtually identical icons, and click 4 or 5 times each time I want to change a spell or look at the map.

Hell, the game won't even let you add a description to your saved games or add comments to the map (even Ultima Underworld let you do that, and UU came out in 1992), that's how "anti-keyboard" it is.

Perhaps you should play it with a dual analog controller, as the Nine Divines intended. The keyboard is optimized for text entry, not as a game controller. The keyboard sucked as an action game controller back in '83 and it sucks now. Sure, they had to put keyboard controls in because all those cheap-ass PC gamers (meaning not just DOS/Windows, but Apple, Commodore, and Atari as well) without joysticks, but it's not optimal.

Oh, if it's a "greatest hit" it must be good.

On the PS3, a game has to be on the shelves for 11 months and sell 500000 copies to be considered for Greatest Hit status. Now that's not a 100% guarantee of a non-sucky game, but in my personal experience, PS1/PS2/PS3 games that reach Greatest Hits tend to be pretty good games.

And thanks to the auto-levelling enemies and loot, you can be sure that the experience you're having now will be exactly the same experience you'll have through the next 400 identical quests of the game. Never too easy, never too hard. Why feel vastly superior to an enemy or why feel afraid of a big monster when they can all feel exactly the same? There's nothing quite like improving your magical abilities by 10% and knowing that all the enemies just had their magic resistance increased by 10%, too.

If they didn't scale the enemies, it wouldn't be so free-form. And then you'd hear other people complaining about the linearity. "Even if you can walk there, You can't truly go to the fortress of brouhaha right away because there's high level Daedra there" They made a valid design decision to make the game as free-form and non-linear as possible: Any quest at any time. That said, perhaps a bit more testing was in order.

The fact they used the same 5 voices for all NPCs also helps give the game a sense of comfortable "unity".

"Yes, I have heard that." They're were just not used to doing what console devs do, hire a bunch of the usual " inexpensive standard voice over suspects" a la Grey Delisle, Cam Clarke, Cree Summer, Jim Cummings, Tom Kenny, etc and probably blew all their cast cash on Capn' Picard, Zod, Boromir and Wonder Woman. That's actually my biggest gripe about the game.

But Oblivion is not even close to the believable, consistent, "living" RPG that Bethesda spent years promising, and - I'm convinced - neither will Fallout 3 be.

What I'm expecting is "Oblivion with guns", set in the "Fallout Universe", which sounds like good fun, but not really innovative. Kind of like how Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel was Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance set in the "Fallout Universe", good fun, but not really innovative.

Re:An FPS with stats is still an FPS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24819309)

If they didn't scale the enemies, it wouldn't be so free-form. And then you'd hear other people complaining about the linearity. "Even if you can walk there, You can't truly go to the fortress of brouhaha right away because there's high level Daedra there" They made a valid design decision to make the game as free-form and non-linear as possible: Any quest at any time. That said, perhaps a bit more testing was in order.

You can have free-form without scaling enemies. The Might and Magic games are great examples (I have only played 6, 7 and 8). Although 7 have a small oblig section at the start these games let you walk any path you want.

At any time (with a few, rare exceptions) you can travel freely to other areas, and explore any dungeon you like. So if you're a fresh level 1 fighter armed with a stick you won't stand a chance when you travel to Dragonsands and face 30-40 dragons at a time. On the other hand you should be able to clear out goblin tribes and thieves guild.

The point is just because you can go anywhere you want, doesn't make it a good idea. For example it should not be a surprise a low-level party has nothing to do in a place crawling with dragons (Dragonsands).

While I enjoy free-form games, I would prefer to notice the increasing power in my charcters/foes I encounter. If you enter a dungeon and get instantly killed within the first room, you can always go someplace else, do some quests and come back 5-10 levels later and face a moderate challenge.

Re:An FPS with stats is still an FPS (1)

Rui del-Negro (531098) | more than 6 years ago | (#24819625)

Complex 3D worlds, especially those with lots of scenery, are easy to get turned around/lost in. It was either have a compass with objectives and fast travel or have players constantly complaining about getting lost

Guess what, the real world is also complex and 3D, and - amazingly - normal human beings (above the age of 8, at least) seem to have no problem navigating it, given reasonable instructions. There are roads and signposts leading to the main destinations and when you're "exploring the wilderness", well, then you're exploring the wilderness and should feel as if you are exploring the wilderness, not staring at a green arrow. An arrow that doesn't even point (just) at places on the map, mind you. If your next objective is "talk to person X", then the arrow will point to person X even as that person moves around the game world (maybe every NPC in Oblivion has a satellite tracker?)

Did the Ultima games or System Shock or even previous Elder Scrolls games have "full time magical GPS navigation"? No, they did not. Did anyone complain about "getting lost all the time"? No, they did not. Because those games were not designed for console gamers with the attention span of a 5 year old.

Well if an NPC tells you they think the Bandits have a secret base somewhere NW of town and if you head NW of town and find bandits and a cave/fort, wouldn't you think that was the secret base?

Maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't. Even if I did think it, I couldn't be sure about it until I actually found the base, could I? What the game does is pop up windows telling me what I should be thinking (it's not enough to tell me exactly what to do all the time), and telling me exactly what I'm going to find before I actually find it. If they really think their players are that retarded, why not simply write "Secret Base Here" on the actual door, instead of popping up windows tellling me what I'm "thinking"? Or why not go all the way and add a button called "autoplay", where I just sit in front of the monitor and use my two brain cells to drool, while the game plays itself?

The keyboard sucked as an action game controller back in '83 and it sucks now.

So you're admitting Oblivion is "an action game", and not a role-playing game, which was my point (reasonably interesting combat, but not what Bethesda spent years promising). Anyway, anyone who plays online FPS games knows that keyboard + mouse will wipe the floor with just about any other combination of controllers (possible exception to that being mouse + gaming keypad).

If they didn't scale the enemies, it wouldn't be so free-form.

Okay, the IQ level of your post has just dropped below my minimum threshold. I guess by your definition Real Life mustn't be "free form", because other people don't become stronger when you exercise, or smarter when you study. By all means, go play Oblivion on your Playstation; I cannot think of anything more appropriate.

Re:An FPS with stats is still an FPS (1)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 6 years ago | (#24825279)

Guess what, the real world is also complex and 3D, and - amazingly - normal human beings (above the age of 8, at least) seem to have no problem navigating it, given reasonable instructions.

Those skills don't translate to the computer screen, because in the real world we have more input, on the screen we're limited to what the devs show to us, which is limited by the hardware. And as you say, we have things like extremely detailed maps of places we have never been, GPS's, and can ask directions of anyone.

There are roads and signposts leading to the main destinations and when you're "exploring the wilderness", well, then you're exploring the wilderness and should feel as if you are exploring the wilderness, not staring at a green arrow. An arrow that doesn't even point (just) at places on the map, mind you. If your next objective is "talk to person X", then the arrow will point to person X even as that person moves around the game world (maybe every NPC in Oblivion has a satellite tracker?)

I play games to have fun, I want to do as little tedious drudgery in the game as possible, especially when the game is very very long. Taking out the compass, arrows, etc would have increased the drudgery quotient of Oblivion. I know there are people who like stupidly realistic fantasy games that are too complex for their own good (see the Realms of Arkania series), I don't. My time is finite, and I actually want to finish games, so anything that cuts down on excessively time consuming realism is a good thing.

Did the Ultima games or System Shock or even previous Elder Scrolls games have "full time magical GPS navigation"? No, they did not. Did anyone complain about "getting lost all the time"? No, they did not.

Here's a quote from Ken Rolston, a Morrowind dev http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/357/357248p1.html [ign.com]

Ken Rolston
Lead Designer
What stands out in my mind about Morrowind? Apart from the Ten Divine Design Principles of Morrowind that I repeat as a mantra every day, in every way, as I toil ceaselessly with Puritanical fanaticism upon this Labor of Love? Well. I love getting lost.

I have never been so completely and hopelessly lost in any game environment. Oh. Well. Maybe as a new-born troll in the swamps of EverQuest. But that was different. I was fighting the interface as much as anything else. In Morrowind, it is a huge, completely plausible landscape. I decide to go from this place to that place, and take off cross-country, bushwhacking. And I get completely, hopelessly lost. And I DESIGNED the damn game. I DESIGNED the map.

Well. Not HOPELESSLY. I always feel like, if I just persist, I'll find a river or some other feature and follow it to civilization. But I spend a LOOOOONG time industriously and futilely exercising my wilderness pathfinding skills. "Here. I'll just follow this ridgeline until I see something familiar. Oh. Look. A Dwemer ruin! Hooray! I'm saved. Oh. 'Gruheelingtheft'? I don't remember any 'Gruheelingtheft'. Where the hell am I?"

Here I am, rigorously testing elements of the Main Quest, Act II, and I am STILL spending long periods of time wandering around looking for places. And because I'm in a hurry, I constantly have to suppress the impulse to climb over that high range of mountains, or swim out to those distant islands, or poke around in that swamp, or pop down the door to that mine, or sneak around in those ruins. When I come back this way, I'll STILL have plenty of opportunities to get thoroughly and gratifyingly lost.

Some people like getting lost, and while I do like exploring Oblivion, the map and arrows let me easily get back to any quest I might want to do without having to do an 80's style notebook full of graph paper maps and notes like: "ziggywiggy the wizard is at X12 Y3 between the hours of 8am and 1pm, but is at X3 Y14 otherwise" I don't have the time for such things anymore. In fact, many people don't want to do that sort of thing, which is why traditional CRPG's were such a niche market and still are.
The things you don't want in Oblivion would have made the game be less appealling to the huge number of RPG non-grognards who bought it.

Because those games were not designed for console gamers with the attention span of a 5 year old.

Hey now, don't pull that stereotype with me, or I'll pull out the old "PC gamers don't actually like playing games, they prefer to play benchmarks for bragging points on their e-penis." Besides, you and I both know that PC games are more action oriented and mass-markety than they used to be. Remember when half the releases were turn based games? Back when retired colonels could start a dev house and sell hex based wargames to an audience that wasn't just a tiny little graybearded niche of a HUGE game market. Then came DOOM and Quake, and Warcraft.

Maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't. Even if I did think it, I couldn't be sure about it until I actually found the base, could I? What the game does is pop up windows telling me what I should be thinking (it's not enough to tell me exactly what to do all the time), and telling me exactly what I'm going to find before I actually find it. If they really think their players are that retarded, why not simply write "Secret Base Here" on the actual door, instead of popping up windows tellling me what I'm "thinking"? Or why not go all the way and add a button called "autoplay", where I just sit in front of the monitor and use my two brain cells to drool, while the game plays itself?

Now we're getting in the old "character knowledge" vs "player knowledge" debate that sometimes shows up in the tabletop RPG community. Frankly I don't want to have to play out every little detail, I don't have time for that, maybe you do. I'm 41 and don't have patience for all that stuff anymore.

So you're admitting Oblivion is "an action game", and not a role-playing game,

Oblivion is both, they're not exclusive to each other. RPG does not imply turn-based!

which was my point (reasonably interesting combat, but not what Bethesda spent years promising).

So they didn't make what they promised, that's a good thing, because a more traditional game wouldn't have sold as well on all. Oblivion as it is now is a hit on all platforms.

Anyway, anyone who plays online FPS games knows that keyboard + mouse will wipe the floor with just about any other combination of controllers (possible exception to that being mouse + gaming keypad).

:-) Guess what my preferred control method for console FPS is: analog stick and mouse. Which is why the PS3 version of The Orange Box pisses me off, unlike the PS2 version of Half-Life 1, there's no mouse support. (I keep a keyboard+mouse attached to my PS3 all the time because I have Linux on it as well.) If I played PC FPS's I'd just have to get one of those Nostromo things with the D-pad and set it for movement.

I also installed Fallout 1 in Dosbox yesterday and I can see Oblivion's ancestry in it. It reminds me of Oblivion, a turn-based post-apocalypic Oblivion with guns. So basing Fallout 3 on Oblivion is IMHO actually quite keeping with tradition.

Re:An FPS with stats is still an FPS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24820173)

Yes, but you cannot use them all effectively.

Why wouldn't people be able to use all the keys on their keyboard effectively? Sure, maybe I don't make much use of scroll-lock, pause or print-screen, but every other key on my keyboard gets used pretty frequently and "effectively".

Is your point that I can't use all 100+ keys at the same time? Well, duh! People's fingers can move, you know?

Can you press circle and square at the same time, on your PS controller? Guess what, with a keyboard and mouse I can simultaneously press W, A, S, D, shift, control, spacebar, mouse1, mouse2, mouse3, mouse4 and mouse5 and still move the mouse (and push the scroll wheel - that's 2 or 4 more actions that can be mapped to that hand). Not that this would ever be necessary in any game I can think of, but it can be done easily.

And for sequential key presses a keyboard is obviously much better than a game pad, because you can use multiple fingers instead of getting RSI on your thumbs. With a game pad you use, at best, 3 fingers on each hand, and the thumbs do 90% of the work. I use 4 fingers just on the mouse (left button, right button, scroll wheel - which is frequently also the middle button, meaning it can do 3 different actions, or 5 if it's a rocking wheel - and two thumb buttons), and I use 5 on the keyboard. More fingers = less movement for each finger = less strain and faster reactions.

Try playing an on-line FPS using your PS controller against a guy with a keyboard and mouse. You'll get owned. There's a reason why the Wii is so popular: because standard console gamepads suck. They're good for platform and fighting games, and reasonable for sports games. For everything else you're better off with just about any other kind of controller.

If your left hand is on WASD and your right on your mouse, can you hit "\" or "=" without taking moving a hand from either position?

If I want to open the map or the inventory, why would I need to keep my hand on WASD? And what's the problem with moving my hand even during gameplay? Will the game crash if I don't have three fingers resting on WAD?

Can you easily walk slowly, in a diagonal direction, and then jump, or do you run out of fingers or find the position required cramps your hand.

Walk diagonally: W + D (left middle finger and left index) or W + A (left ring finger)
Slow: Shift (left pinky)
Jump: Spacebar (left thumb)

That's the default configuration of most FPS games, and that's where my fingers land naturally if the middle finger is on W.

Looks like you've never used a keyboard or have mutant hands.

With 90% of games these days letting people bind any action to any key or controller button, Oblivion's interface is simply prehistoric. Defending it (let alone considering it "superior" because it can't be configured) is just clueless.

Re:An FPS with stats is still an FPS (1)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 6 years ago | (#24825689)

Can you press circle and square at the same time, on your PS controller?

Yes. At least one game I have played uses that combination. There's two ways of doing it, "base of thumb on circle + hit square with tip of thumb", or "index + middle finger"

And for sequential key presses a keyboard is obviously much better than a game pad, because you can use multiple fingers instead of getting RSI on your thumbs. With a game pad you use, at best, 3 fingers on each hand, and the thumbs do 90% of the work.

The thumbs SHOULD do 90% of the work, they're your strongest and most capable fingers. In the part of your brain that controls your hands the majority of it is devoted to your thumbs. They're your most important fingers. Your second most capable finger is the index finger. That's why console control pads are designed the way they are. Your pinky is the weakest and least dextrous finger, you don't want to use it much repetitively at all.

Try playing an on-line FPS using your PS controller against a guy with a keyboard and mouse. You'll get owned.

People keep saying that, and I don't really believe that it would be 100% true for every person on every game. The right thumb is generally the most dextrous finger in the body, well capable of extremely fine movements. Besides, I have analog movement too and if I wish, I can combine that analog stick for movement with a mouse. Thus giving me the purported accuracy of PC gamers with smooth analog movement.

If I want to open the map or the inventory, why would I need to keep my hand on WASD? And what's the problem with moving my hand even during gameplay? Will the game crash if I don't have three fingers resting on WAD?

Suppose you're in combat in Oblivion and want to use an inventory item not hotkeyed. I can bring up the menu while moving or while still attacking or while still blocking. because the menu button is circle. You have to use your pinky on tab, something you will not want to do repetitively. I'd lay odds that PS3/Xbox Oblivion players can play longer without finger/hand fatigue than the PC Oblivion players. I found that was the case with the PC and PS1 version of Diablo. I simply can't play the PC version as long as the PS1 version before hand/wrist/finger fatigue tells me to quit.

Walk diagonally: W + D (left middle finger and left index) or W + A (left ring finger)
Slow: Shift (left pinky)
Jump: Spacebar (left thumb)

Here's how it's done on the PS3
Walk slowly diagonally: analog stick (left thumb)
Jump: triangle (right thumb)

Notice how it uses the strongest fingers and doesn't use the weakest, and it leaves index and middle fingers free. I also notice that "Cast" is on the "c" key, which means that a PC Oblivion player cannot effectively move right and cast at the same time without shifting fingers from the standard "home" position.

Looks like you've never used a keyboard or have mutant hands.

I have thumbs, and enjoy fast intuitive D-pad or analog stick movement with my thumb. Keyboards are for text entry, not for playing games requiring. The fact that you can control a game with the keyboard is a kludge, and not a very good one, it's not optimal for comfort.

With 90% of games these days letting people bind any action to any key or controller button, Oblivion's interface is simply prehistoric. Defending it (let alone considering it "superior" because it can't be configured) is just clueless.

The UESPWiki says that the controls can be configured, on all platforms: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Controls#Remapping_Controls [uesp.net] But I'm telling you that analog stick movement beats WASD any day of the week. Try it, with the Xbox/Windows gamepad, you'll see. Oblivion doesn't need super accurate analog aiming, no need to use a sniper rifle or railgun in oblivion, so the right stick will work just fine for looking around. Course if you're used to WASD and the mouse you won't have the fine control in your thumbs that console gamers have, at first. (I sometimes joke about how ham-handed PC gamers are when they complain about analog sticks) But stick with it.

Re:FPS players (2, Interesting)

blackirish (794322) | more than 6 years ago | (#24806125)

I think a lot of FPS players are going to be tricked into buying this ("Wow! Look at those graphics/setting/review score/whatever"), and be very distraught once they learn that it is not an FPS. Sure, there will be those who will like the fact that your shooting skills/power are based upon your stats, but I can see those who are used to guns doing a set amount of damage with a set amount of accuracy being very turned off by this game.

You know, I've heard crap like this before and I'm tired of it. FPS players play games from other genres too. We're not all obnoxious 13 year olds who think Counterstrike is the end all, be all. Most of us have longer attention spans than you give us credit for. We can read where it says 'RPG' on the fucking game box and comprehend that it isn't going to be like CS or Quake. Stop looking down at FPS players like we're retards just because we like twitch games. Very few FPS players are going to be "tricked" into buying Fallout 3.

Personally, I think the game looks great and I hope that it plays great. The post-apocalyptic wasteland looks awesome and I think they captured most of the "feel" of Fallout. I loved Fallout 1 & 2, and while I know this game won't be like those, I'm optimistic that this game could be just as excellent. I see a lot of complaints about the new AP system and the character modeling/animations, but we won't know how much those affect the fun and immersion without actually playing the game. After reading a few message boards, I feel like I'm one of the few Fallout fans that are willing to give Bethesda a chance.

Re:FPS players (1)

ShadowRangerRIT (1301549) | more than 6 years ago | (#24806347)

We can read where it says 'RPG' on the fucking game box and comprehend that it isn't going to be like CS or Quake.

*You* may not be retarded, but I heard a hell of a lot of whining about Mass Effect having "too much dialogue." Along with the complaints like "Why can't I hit what I'm aiming at?" maybe you should consider that not everyone reads the label, and just thinks "ooh, FPS" when they see a screenshot like the ones we've seen to date.

Re:FPS players (1)

Kagura (843695) | more than 6 years ago | (#24807277)

Mass Effect has a wonderful storyline and very deep lore. It also showed us how fantastic english voice actors can actually be. Unfortunately, its gameplay leaves MUCH to be desired. It's simply unacceptable for a game with the potential of Mass Effect to be released with the gameplay and lamentably boring exploration.

Re:FPS players (1)

Das Modell (969371) | more than 6 years ago | (#24807349)

the isometric viewpoint no longer feels right for this series, IMO

Why not? Fallout has always been isometric, and the Fallout 3 that was under development by Black Isle was also isometric.

Thanks Bethesda! (1)

yanyan (302849) | more than 6 years ago | (#24806779)

For making the 4th (3rd if you don't count Fallout Tactics: BOS) installment in one of my favorite game series completely unplayable on my box! Seriously i know Bethesda makes good games (Elder Scrolls), but they just had to go and make Fallout 3 into an FPS. A huge hog of an FPS, i would add.

Blah, blah, blah. (4, Insightful)

Runefox (905204) | more than 6 years ago | (#24807659)

"Oh, no, it's an FPS, it's not Fallout!"
"Durr, it's a tactical shooter now!"
"This game sucks because it looks pretty!"
"Additional generic fanboy 'they castrated it' comment"

Whatever. First of all, the game hasn't even been released yet. All we have is a gameplay video (which actually shows that you can go third-person, as well), teasers and screenshots to work with. To immediately discount the game because it's first-person (or third-person) instead of isometric is simply moronic, and completely disregards any semblance of intelligence that many people believe the game lacks simply because of its first person perspective. Even more silly is the concept that the graphics look good, and therefore the gameplay must be shit. What the hell? Does it have to be isometric sprite-based 256 colour graphics for it to be a good game? For it to be Fallout?

Stupidity. Wait for the game to be released and make your decisions then - Don't knock it based on a couple-minute long video that shows the very beginning of the game (wherein you have no interaction with anything but a vending machine and whatever you decide to randomly shoot). From what I've seen so far, the level system and the perks system looks more or less identical to the old Fallout games, and the general motif definitely seems in tune. I see nothing that immediately jumps out at me as "non-Fallout", and so until I've seen the game in action, I won't say it is or isn't. But, it certainly does look like Fallout.

Rated T-For Teen (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24808827)

The things that are making me most sad about these trailers are that Fallout was famous for its gore, sex, and ingenuity. So far all I can see is a pretty bog standard looking gibs system that looks like it might have been revolutionary on soldier of fortune 1. You can take note that when he steals armor everyone is stripped to family friendly bethesda standard full tshirt and underwear, which leaves me thinking as raunchy as this game will get is going to be some full clothed pole dancers. Even things like planting explosives in some ones pack no longer involve any thought to work out, you place the grenade, it automatically arms and the NPC automatically realises it has been placed so that it can play a funny animation scene. Sure I'm a sick **** for wanting savage violence, prostitution and sadism in a video game, but that was what made the old fallouts something else. they were games by adults for adults.

Whats with the complaints? (1)

nEoN nOoDlE (27594) | more than 6 years ago | (#24812715)

There are a bunch of complaints talking crap about the first person view and that you could shoot stuff in real-time, but what's the problem? Fallout as an RPG wasn't a very good one. Fallout was a great game because of the different choices in ways to solve missions, the character development, but most of all the story and art direction. This looks like it's heading in the right way in terms of story and art direction so why is everyone bitching about the first person nature? First Person is more immersive than a top-down isometric view which is exactly what Fallout needs to drive the story and plot to higher levels. So who cares if the fighting system doesn't have the little move points per round? As far as I remember, that was the part of the game that was panned by the critics.

Re:Whats with the complaints? (1)

KGIII (973947) | more than 6 years ago | (#24813167)

Maybe we define RPG differently but the whole role playing aspect of it was really what I thought Fallout (FO2 was the best in my opinion) did very well. It allowed you to step into character, to accentuate the aspects you liked best, and to run through the game in so many different ways that you got to role play being evil, benign, good, or just to run through it like a made man.

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