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Defusing the Threat of Disgruntled IT Workers

timothy posted more than 5 years ago | from the don't-let-them-buy-fuse-at-all dept.

Businesses 401

snydeq writes "According to computer forensics expert witness Keith Jones, for every logic bomb on the network or Terry Childs case that makes it into the press, there are 98 other incidents of disgruntled IT pros damaging company assets that you never hear about. And though most IT workers are too professional to take out their grievances on the systems they've worked so hard to maintain, unless management takes note of the growing discontent in the IT workplace, it may fall victim to the unspoken 'ticking time bomb' lurking within its call for IT to do more with less, InfoWorld reports. Drastically understaffed, battered by interminable hours and impossible demands, many IT folks are being pushed to the brink by management that neither trusts nor supports them."

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First!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25113119)

Ok!

Pussies (-1, Troll)

Reality Master 201 (578873) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113131)

Come on. If your job is that stressful, fucking find a new one. Or, sack up and learn to cope.

In 99% of cases, if you freak out and do stupid shit, it's cause you're weak, not because the workplace really is that bad.

Re:Pussies (5, Funny)

Eternauta3k (680157) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113147)

Shh. This is meant to scare management into cutting them some slack

Re:Pussies (1)

Brain Damaged Bogan (1006835) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113559)

...because every manager I've ever had has read slashdot... actually come to think of it I've never seen a manager read anything, which is why we always need to present information in charts with plenty of pretty pictures.

Re:Pussies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25113685)

Brian,
Please stop by my office in the morning.
Yeah... I read...

Re:Pussies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25114237)

His name is Brain, you insensitive clod!

Re:Pussies (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25113173)

Come on. If your job is that stressful, fucking find a new one.

Good advice. Being one whom is burned out from all the stress, I need a whole other occupation.

Posting as AC for obvious reasons. They'll get my two week notice soon enough.

Re:Pussies (1)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114559)

CowboyNeal? Is that you?

--Taco

Re:Pussies (4, Interesting)

liquidpele (663430) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113235)

I think the real threat to IT is not sabotage from disgruntled employees... I think it's the under qualified ones that do the most damage. They usually not only break stuff accidentally, but see their job as temporary and thus don't care about it which leads to all sorts of bad things (such as routers and such "disappearing" from the rack).

Re:Pussies (4, Insightful)

swb (14022) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113687)

Under qualified people are a pain in the ass, and often a source of frustration for people that are qualified since it often becomes double duty making sure someone else's fuckups don't cause them for you.

But then there's also the barely-qualified lifers, too. There you get the double-whammy of long-term apathy and incompetence. They're just good enough to stick around, but bad enough that they deeply embed their stupidity, making improvements/upgrades almost impossible.

Re:Pussies (4, Interesting)

Sorthum (123064) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114647)

Let's also not forget the malevolently incompetent. As an example, I blew away a bit of important data through not checking my rsync flags. I immediately tracked down the data's owner and explained the situation so that we could take measures.

I didn't think much of it at the time, but a coworker later pointed out that I could have not said a word, closed the shell window, and they'd never have known who did it; the fact that I didn't showed "character." I'm not sure if I agree with that part of it, but I DO know an awful lot of people I've worked with in the past who would have hidden it and never said a word about it...

Re:Pussies (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25113295)

Stop scaring me with your toughness, internet tough guy.

Re:Pussies (4, Funny)

Sponge Bath (413667) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113309)

...if you freak out and do stupid shit, it's cause you're weak

You don't happen to have pointy hair do you?

Re:Pussies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25113353)

You convinced me. Would you mind sending an email to my boss to let him know my 2 weeks notice?

Re:Pussies (5, Insightful)

jaxtherat (1165473) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113531)

Come on. If your job is that stressful, fucking find a new one. Or, sack up and learn to cope.

With IT experience only, what would that be, another IT job with similar problems or pushing a mop?

In 99% of cases, if you freak out and do stupid shit, it's cause you're weak, not because the workplace really is that bad.

A bit of a generalisation there mate, as in my experience; in tech support, it could be the fact that you have to close X number of tickets a week, but you get at least twice that on average. Or as a sysad, you know what your budget to fix things is, but you get less than a third of that. Or as a developer, half your team gets sacked, the sales guys get payrises, AND the shorten your deadline by a month.

Re:Pussies (0)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113623)

"With IT experience only, what would that be, another IT job with similar problems or pushing a mop?"

If you're good enough...incorporate yourself, and go contracting.

YOu can save good money on employment taxes (SS and medicare) if you do it right (S corp), you can write things off...you are your own boss, and if you negotiate your bill rates...if you want, work a few months...take off a few months. That can be nice and relaxing. Being your own boss is nice.

And, because you bill for every hour you work, they think twice about asking you to work worthless OT. And if they do...not so bad, since you get paid for it.

Re:Pussies (3, Insightful)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113533)

In 99% of cases, if you freak out and do stupid shit, it's cause you're weak, not because the workplace really is that bad.

It is a LOT easier for a burger flipper to say that than a cubicle dweller.

Re:Pussies (0, Flamebait)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114045)

In 99% of cases, if you freak out and do stupid shit, it's cause you're weak, not because the workplace really is that bad.

It is a LOT easier for a burger flipper to say that than a cubicle dweller.

Flamebait? One of you dudes was offended by that? Pussy. :P

Re:Pussies (4, Insightful)

MrMista_B (891430) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113581)

Heh, you sound like the sort of person who destroys companies from the inside out. If I were your boss, you'd be fired, and everyone working under and around you would probably hail me as a hero.

Re:Pussies (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25113679)

How's the brick carrying going mate?

Bet your the type of pussy fuck who writes anything on the net then in the blinding light of reality denies everything.

Funny how the same fucktard that makes this comment is doing it via a piece of equipment designed, programmed, and even maintained by... IT workers. SHOCK HORROR.

I'd like to see you send 10hrs a day listening to fucking morons like yourself. See how long it takes you to get disgruntled when your boss is just as retarded as your customers.

Re:Pussies (2, Insightful)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113761)

"Come on. If your job is that stressful, fucking find a new one. Or, sack up and learn to cope. In 99% of cases, if you freak out and do stupid shit, it's cause you're weak, not because the workplace really is that bad. "

you sound like your about 15 and don't know what a stressful job is.

Re:Pussies (4, Insightful)

b4upoo (166390) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113849)

I've been in some pretty bad work places. To me the shock is that many more disgruntled employees don't walk in with guns blazing. Frankly we need more regulation to protect employees from abuse. People are forced to work and often don't have the luxury of telling the boss to stuff it. In some cases I would not even find a person guilty because i know just how rotten some employers can be.

Re:Pussies (-1, Troll)

tjstork (137384) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114425)

Frankly we need more regulation to protect employees from abuse. People are forced to work and often don't have the luxury of telling the boss to stuff it

Protect from what abuse? What, do you think we are coal miners or something? Oh, mean old boss hurt your feelings. Grow a pair and say no sometimes.

Re:Pussies (3, Interesting)

the_B0fh (208483) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114509)

People who need a job and can't afford to be without one don't have that luxury. I have a friend who had to go on short term disability, and the manager piled on 37 individual objectives in his annual review for him to meet. He was given 22 work days to meet that. Of those 22 days, he was already approved and scheduled 10 days off for surgery and shit.

37 individual objectives, one of which took another person over a year to work on without success.

Can you say, set up to fail?

And what about H1Bs? Oh, wait, even though they are here legally, they deserve all that shit piled on them too, right? Especially in at-will states, where they can be fired for no reason, and will be deported?

Mucking Foron.

Re:Pussies (2, Insightful)

mixmatch (957776) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114597)

Frankly we need more regulation to protect employees from abuse. People are forced to work and often don't have the luxury of telling the boss to stuff it.

I never cease to be amazed at how some people's solution to a problem is "more regulation". Politicians pander to your type.

Re:Pussies (2, Interesting)

gabrieltss (64078) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114735)

"People are forced to work and often don't have the luxury of telling the boss to stuff it."

One nice thing I liked about the military is I could tell a Colonel to go to hell. All I had to do is say "Sir, with all respect for your rank - fuck you!" and that was it. The "Sir, with all respect for your rank" gave the due respect for his rank. the "fuck you!" was directed at him peronsally. So there wasn't much they could do as far as inssupordination etc... I made it over 9 years active duty before I got out. Never one article 15, never one punishment. You just had to know how to tell people off. You can't do anything like this in the business world. Most management are fucking pricks and they know it, and know they can do whatever they want and you can't do shit except put up with their crap or leave. They don't care wither way.

Re:Pussies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25114757)

We are not slaves. If the work is so horrible there is always the alternative. What's worse, your boss who overworks you, and under-appreciates you, or living on the street? I take it by your continued employment you'd say the latter.

Re:Pussies (1)

CharlieG (34950) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114161)

didn't do stupid shit, but once made a serious mistake - went to work for a consulting company that billed me out by the hour, and paid me by the week.

in the 6 months I was there, I averaged 67.5 hours/week, including my vacation week, Thanksgiving week, and Christmas/New Years, and I was told I was not working long enough hours!

Worst job I ever had

Re:Pussies (1)

dissy (172727) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114357)

Come on. If your job is that stressful, fucking find a new one. Or, sack up and learn to cope.

In 99% of cases, if you freak out and do stupid shit, it's cause you're weak, not because the workplace really is that bad.

Hey, us weak sys admins have feelings too ya know :{

Going Postal (0, Troll)

agent (7471) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113141)

Let us go fucking kill people!

Here's how we fixed it... (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25113221)

We hired three times as many people, and only 1/3 is ever really working in IT. The other 2/3 work in a mysterious shadow IT whose work is never actually used or relied on. No one knows which group they're in, but they also know their work probably doesn't matter, so it keeps them on their toes.

Try not being a dick to your employees (5, Insightful)

forgoil (104808) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113229)

Works wonders! If you are decent to the people you employ and/or manage, they will most often be really nice back. Not rocket science! Social science I guess though.

I'd like to know about the working conditions at the places were someone went haywire, my guess is that there is a very telling correlation. Guess that wouldn't be as newsworthy though :(

Re:Try not being a dick to your employees (5, Funny)

cashman73 (855518) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113303)

I'd like to know about the working conditions at the places were someone went haywire,...

I'd love to tell you, but unfortunately that place was set on fire [youtube.com] by a disgruntled IT worker with a red stapler [luminomagazine.com] , and the printer was busted [youtube.com] before they could print anything out,...

Why?? (5, Insightful)

DaMattster (977781) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113237)

I can understand where a lot of people's frustration comes from. Speaking from experience, management has a tendency to keep wanting to do more with less and keep lumping responsibility on top of us to the point where the salary paid becomes far from comensurate with the job expectations. Now go ahead and mod this down. I am sure managers will be so inclined. But remember, IT is what keeps the business in business.

Re:Why?? (5, Insightful)

Bacon Bits (926911) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113785)

Part of the problem is that if IT is done right then it's invisible. Nothing breaks, there are no downtimes, no service outages, requests are completed in a timely and efficient manner, etc. You know good IT when you no longer have to think about the technology. You wouldn't not even know your company has an IT department. Everything just works.

Then the problem is that bean-counters come in and say "Do we really need to be spending all this money for IT? We don't have any problems with technology that would require an annual budget this size. Let's outsource it and save money. We don't need new versions because what we have clearly works just fine." That line of thinking will quickly get you into a position where nothing at all works and you're absolutely certain your company hasn't got an IT department because you can't get anything fixed.

Seriously, how often do you think about the service lines running to homes and businesses? Never unless there's a problem, and then you realize how big of a problem it is. Electricity is plug and play, flick a switch. Gas, water and sewer are totally invisible. IT is the same. It's either invisible or there's a problem.

Re:Why?? (2, Insightful)

bogidu (300637) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114499)

Everything just works . . . . . except users that lock their accounts or forget their passwords. Then they're pissed at not being able to find a site person to fix it RIGHT DAMNED NOW!

Re:Why?? (2, Insightful)

AB3A (192265) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114609)

The pressure to do more at a lower cost never does go away for any business. The question is whether managers understand the investments required to make this happen.

You can't squeeze blood from a stone, we all know that much. However, there is another way and it is quite evil. A perpetrator can trash the infrastructure while things keep moving ahead with deferred maintenance. However, by the time anyone discovers the missing maintenance, the perpetrators will have been through several promotions for their "good performance." They'll be in a fine position to fix the problems they made.

This is how __it happens in a utility. I wish it were legal to prosecute people for this kind of idiotic negligence. Instead, we give them lots of money so they can buy memberships in the premier country clubs, hobnob with other executives, and perpetrate this foolishness all over again while trying make excuses for why everything is falling apart all around them.

Re:Why?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25114731)

Then the problem is that bean-counters come in and say "Do we really need to be spending all this money for IT? We don't have any problems with technology that would require an annual budget this size. Let's outsource it and save money. We don't need new versions because what we have clearly works just fine."

If you're working in IT, and don't want some douchebag somewhere wondering why they're paying you to "do nothing" then put it on paper. Managers love to see that the money they're spending isn't for nothing, and they love reports. 5-10 minutes at the end of the day isn't too much to devote to job security.

Re:Why?? (1)

Mike610544 (578872) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114815)

They want to increase productivity and decrease spending?!? That's crazy talk. Maybe they're screwing themselves by underpaying IT people, but why would you do a job where the salary doesn't fit with the job expectations?

Printable version (4, Informative)

andreyvul (1176115) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113253)

Solve the root of the problem (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25113311)

Keep your staff happy. If your aim is to keep staff unhappy, then don't employ copetent people. And oh, stop complaining that there are not enough qualified personnel!

Same OLD story (3, Interesting)

partowel (469956) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113351)

[ Authority Figure ] pisses off [ slave figure ].

[ slave figure ] takes [ action ].

Management thinks they are untouchable.

IT workers know otherwise.

Respect is a two way street.

Disrespect is also a two way street.

I left a ticking code bomb (5, Funny)

HangingChad (677530) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113455)

I left a ticking code bomb on my last job, here's how it happened:

Me: The rest of today I thought we'd go over the end of year maintenance and reports, they're a little involved.

My replacement: I think I got it.

Me: You sure? It's pretty complicated. Two hours really isn't enough of a hand off for an app this complicated.

My replacement: I'm good. I've got to take my kid to the doctor this afternoon (turns to leave).

Me: Okay then.

End of FY ends in about two weeks. Guess they'll find out how ready he really was.

Re:I left a ticking code bomb (5, Insightful)

ColaMan (37550) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113515)

I have to wonder if the "99 other" incidents was where something just fell over after the "evil" IT guy left and Management just assumes it was malice.

Re:I left a ticking code bomb (1)

barzok (26681) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113583)

The overwhelming majority of them.

I've been there, done that. Last place I left, management didn't even attempt to find someone for me to do turnover with until 3 days before I left.

Re:I left a ticking code bomb (1)

magus_melchior (262681) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114277)

To twist Hanlon's Razor a bit, why assume incompetence when you can sue for malice and win millions in damages?

Re:I left a ticking code bomb (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25114411)

I once had to leave a job because the nepotism was so intense it was literally preventing me from getting any meaningful projects finished.

Months after I left, I heard stories through the grapevine, that they we constantly getting hacked, and were blaming it on me. I was tempted to take them to court for slander, until I heard the rest of the story. They were somehow aware that most of these attacks were coming from 'Amsterdam', but they kept saying 'I dont know how, but XXX is responsible for this. I just know it.'

Once I heard the story, I knew it was best to just let them keep making a fool of themselves. Every person who told me they heard this, also told me they had to keep from lauging in the guys face who said it. For the same reason I would never 'hack' them, I let them go on running their mouth.

"People like that will do more damage to themselves, than I could ever possibly hope to accomplish without any consequences"

Re:I left a ticking code bomb (4, Interesting)

PPH (736903) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113725)

Management (particularly the paranoid ones) have an odd idea about what constitutes a 'logic bomb'.

I left a job about 5 years ago in which I was responsible for maintaining half a dozen servers. To make my job a little easier, I had set up a watchdog system which would check the health of the system periodically and page me in the event a server went down. I had it set to page me and e-mail me both at work as well as my home address.

When I was leaving, I gave my replacement instructions on what to do, including which file to edit to replace my e-mail addresses with his. To date, I still receive the occasional 'server down/server up' e-mail at home. When I ran into a fellow engineer (still with the company), I told him about the situation (in the context of how screwed up the company still is). He got a concerned look on his face and told me I should contact their IT people immediately to get the situation remedied. Or they might run across one of these messages and figure it was a part of some hack. I replied that the only thing it demonstrated was the companie's inability to follow written instructions.

Re:I left a ticking code bomb (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25113967)

We were contracted to a small company to provide all IT support. Several years later, our contract was terminated. The replacement was a salaried employee for the company. By the company's decision, we were not allowed to tell him what he should do. We could only answer questions. (They wanted a "clean" separation from past procedures.) He never asked the right questions.

Why go through all of that? (0, Redundant)

tjstork (137384) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114455)

Oh, my replacement is doing a bang up job with this 150k line Excel C# VBA abortion. He's very bright, I'm sure he'll pick it up in a day or so. I gotta go take my kid to the doctor... yeah short timing it.

This is only going to get worse. (1, Interesting)

DragonTHC (208439) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113457)

IT Staff are already treated like indentured servants in most companies. Pay is insultingly low. Hours are almost illegal. Management is disrespectful, ignorant and arrogant. Jobs are moving overseas or moving "underseas" (my term for cheap H1B labor). There is no union support. There are no wage standards. There are too many unqualified people working while qualified people keep looking. Most positions require too many skill sets for not enough pay (There are many doctors who don't have as many 'medical specialties' as some administrators I know.).

These companies are lucky to get away with as little damages as are done.

They need to wake up and realize that business doesn't get done without computers.

We need to unionize.

Re:This is only going to get worse. (4, Insightful)

couchslug (175151) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113589)

"We need to unionize."

Good way to be instantly undercut by cheaper labor.

I'd advise leaving or developing a good case of apathy. Any employer who screws me forfeits my loyalty and I feel free to become a (cheerful, friendly, lying) sloth.

Re:This is only going to get worse. (1)

Tubal-Cain (1289912) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114715)

"We need to unionize."

Good way to be instantly undercut by cheaper labor.

I have noticed this with "Geek" Squad. I (and most people here) could easily get the job done for half their price.

Re:This is only going to get worse. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25114775)

I have worked in office equipment/pc repair fields since I started working and am currently a net admin for a school in califronia. I have many friends who work in other industries and most are in union shops and such. I always wondered what made IT so different and how the union never gets brought in...

I think it is because there is never enough IT guys working for one place to get one going! Where as at the Ford plant...

Re:This is only going to get worse. (0, Troll)

0100010001010011 (652467) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113853)

You don't work much with unions, do you?

Re:This is only going to get worse. (5, Interesting)

artor3 (1344997) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113901)

Insultingly low pay? Fresh out of a 4-year college, your average salary will be 50% more than a teacher, and they need a masters!

Nearly illegal hours? Care to guess how long doctors, lawyers, engineers, and managers work? I'll give you a hint, it's also a lot.

Disrespectful management? Everyone gets this from time to time. If it's that bad, quit. Not all managers are disrespectful.

Jobs moving overseas? Go tell some layed off factory workers. I'm sure they'd love to hear how much you're suffering.

Fact is, IT workers have it far, far better than the average American/citizen of (insert your country here). You make good money, and your job isn't physically dangerous. Yes, it's not all butterflies and cupcakes, but no job is, barring rockstars and whatnot. Try being more positive, and realizing just how well off you are. It goes a long way.

Re:This is only going to get worse. (5, Insightful)

DragonTHC (208439) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114487)

Fresh out of a 4-year college, your average salary will be 50% more than a teacher, and they need a masters!

Not here in Miami, unfortunately. Here you are expected to start at $30k a year while teachers who only have a bachelors make slightly more. Cheap labor is already here from the endless supply of immigrants.

Care to guess how long doctors, lawyers, engineers, and managers work? I'll give you a hint, it's also a lot.

doctors who work in the ER work in long shifts but have at least 3 days off. They also get paid 3 times what your average IT worker does.
Lawyers don't do anything without billing for it. Engineers are slightly akin to IT workers except they're unionized already.
And managers. Ah yes, managers. They leave at 3:30 unless they have someone watching them. Then they leave at 5:00 on the dot.

Meanwhile, IT workers are expected to be on call 24/7 unless there's a second shift at a larger shop. In a smaller shop, they have to deal with unrealistic deadlines for projects while still doing support and maintaining their regular systems. They have to work 16 hours a day to get those projects done or they risk losing their job to someone cheaper.

Disrespectful management is more of an epidemic with IT workers. Usually management only needs them when there's a problem. So managers tend to treat us like we're the cause.

How many laid off factory workers are there? How many laid off software engineers are there? Phone support techs? Database Administrators? I have honestly never met a DBA who wasn't Indian. And I've met alot while working contracts. They are apparently all from India. I know they know their stuff, but damn we have no DBAs from Brooklyn or Chicago or L.A. or Miami or Boise even?

And, I'm not well off. I get work very sparingly. I have a specialized skill set in being a Linux Administrator. I haven't been able to find permanent employment since Clinton was in office. That's no exaggeration. I've been working contracts and handling my own customers since then. It's sparse. I have it very bad in fact. My contract pay is low and the hours are low. And some of the companies are grateful when you finish and others thank you by disabling your proxcard. I work in a city where a computer guy will charge $20 a hour for a service call. How can you compete with that?

Yeah, I mostly need to get the hell out of Miami. But that's not feasible right now. So, I'm learning spanish as fast as I can, but that's no guarantee. This market sucks for me.

I have never cause damage to company systems for being "disgruntled" I have too much professional pride to sink so low.

but again, I'm surprised at how little this actually happens.

The whole point here is, IT workers generally hold the keys to businesses and we're being dumped on.

A lot of people think that unionizing will send work oversees. For some that may happen. But I highly doubt that companies will send positions that require you to be in-house to India or China. Even if they do, the jobs will come back within a few months due to security breaches and different working hours. There are some jobs which can't be done overseas. Generally, IT support is one of those. Unless you're talking about data grunt work.

I say this is only going to get worse because I don't see a solution in sight. Business isn't taking steps to keep us happy workers.

Union workers get paid higher wages on average than non-union workers doing the same job. That's a fact. Granted, those costs eat into profits.

I say take that extra money from executive salaries. My father worked for a company where the highest paid employee couldn't get paid more than 7 times what the lowest paid employee made. It kept things honest and productive. Salaries were tied to results. The CEO didn't get bonuses for showing up.

Re:This is only going to get worse. (0, Troll)

Azghoul (25786) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114557)

You're getting 30k right out of college (no exp). With comparatively limitless potential - you should be able to reach 6 figures within 10 years if you're any good.

And you're complaining?

Re:This is only going to get worse. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25114737)

You responded to the strawman version of the parent's legitimate points.

For example, on the doctor argument: yes, ER docs have X hours on, X hours off requirements. But the doctors who actually make the 'big bucks' are people who paid for 4 years of college, 4 years of med school, worked 80+ hours per week (not including off-the-clock studying) for 4-8 years at $40k, and still work 60+ hours per week 'on the clock'.

The lawyer "argument" is likewise fallacious - fine, lawyers do nothing without getting paid for it; neither does anyone else.

In summary, you're not appealing to reason; you're appealing to emotion. I feel for you, but not at the expense of all of the other groups that your arguments slight.

Re:This is only going to get worse. (1)

AB3A (192265) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114787)

AMEN!

Where I work, jobs are dangerous, dirty, and sometimes even deadly. They don't pay much either.

I'm an engineer who often works in the field. I get close enough to those jobs that I don't complain too loudly about what I make. I am not financially wealthy, but I'm not hurting either.

Oh, and by the way, those workers are in a union. I guess it worked for them, huh?

And you know what pisses of those guys more than anything else? Some high paid IT manager who makes all sorts of promises he can't keep up with, who can't deliver on half of what he's tasked with, and who then has the audacity to complain that they're not paying him enough.

The solution is to do what you love. When you are good at what you do, people will seek you out.

Re:This is only going to get worse. (2, Insightful)

donjefe (1088955) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113933)

Unionizing is the surest way to make sure your job gets out-sourced to China. If you don't believe me, ask the steel workers. We now ship ore to China, have them smelt it, and send it back to us, and all of this is still cheaper than paying union steel workers! Also, point me to this cheap H1B labor. My H1B's make 75-85K....

Re:This is only going to get worse. (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25114177)

We need to unionize.

You don't gain white collar respectability with blue collar tactics.

articles like this are going to help the distrust? (1)

jdogalt (961241) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113527)

It seems to me that this article is simultaneously drawing attention to an issue, while fueling the flames of the issue. I.e. "There is this huge problem of employees doing bad things because they are untrusted".

Yeah, OK. Thanks again slashdot editors. Like accountants whose job gives them the ability to hide wreckless risk-taking to beef up their current performance at the expense of the collapse that will happen after they have taken their bonuses and left the company, aren't a bigger threat to the businesses of the world.

Leave something funny - not code bombs (5, Funny)

operand (15312) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113529)

I knew a former employee that left a piece of code in an app that when a user entered a certain search string, it would give Chuck Norris facts. Leave your employer laughing, not disgruntled.

Re:Leave something funny - not code bombs (-1, Redundant)

areusche (1297613) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113681)

In Soviet Russia, you don't work on Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris works on you!

Re:Leave something funny - not code bombs (1)

syousef (465911) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113915)

I knew a former employee that left a piece of code in an app that when a user entered a certain search string, it would give Chuck Norris facts. Leave your employer laughing, not disgruntled.

I've seen code that recites silly conversations between Kirk and Spock and for an April fools day joke tells the user their hard disk is being wiped. NOT funny.

How funny do you think any of this is when someone's literally paid millions for the piece of code in question?

Re:Leave something funny - not code bombs (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25114133)

That was me.
And I assure you - it was pretty fucking funny.

This is news? (5, Insightful)

PenguinX (18932) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113535)

This surprises me, I hate to use these sort of universal qualifiers, but in a LOT of companies Systems Admins and Systems engineers are overworked. So many that it seems like "duh, everyone knows this". What's worse is that its accepted and people (managers) don't seem bothered about it in the slightest bit.

My personal experience is that I worked as a Systems Administrator and then Systems Engineer for about 9 years. I left the field because it is an exceedingly frustrating career path that invaded any sort of personal life that I may desire to have. It was normal to work much more than I should. We're raised to believe that 40-60 hours a week is reasonable along with occasional peaks. However it was normal for me to work 60-80, hours a week, I remember a 3-4 month period where I literally only went home to shower and sleep for 4 hour intervals. This sort of treatment isn't just a few companies here-or-there, but this was my experience in working at 3 different places.

I would have left the profession long ago, but as it was I found myself stifled by this statement "You need more experience" or perhaps "you need a degree". What I found was that the sheer magnitude of work that had been put on my plate was so much that it was impossible for me to get "more" experience let alone a degree.

As an aside, before you go on with the "you should have known better and had a degree before you started this line of work" rhetoric, I grew up poor, and after I graduated high school my parents still didn't have the cash to help me in college. An entry level IT job in the late 90's paid crap, so I could barely pony up rent, food, car insurance, and other basic expenses - let alone get a degree. Too bad I was a fast learner, I quickly found myself with more responsibility and not much extra money.

What I've described is not limited to my own experience, I have met countless people who have had the exact same experience. Basically it goes something like this:

1. Was planning on going to college, but couldn't
2. Left home, got an IT job
3. Learned fast, got lots of responsibility
4. Got too much responsibility, can't leave work
5. Want out, but can't because "you need more experience" or "you need a degree"

I count it a miracle that I was able to transition from one career (SE work) to another (Developer) AND work on getting both experience and a degree at the same time, but I really don't see any other way to get out of this sort of trap.

Anyone else's experiences?
-b

Re:This is news? (5, Insightful)

HornWumpus (783565) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113733)

You were shooting yourself in the foot being so efficient.

The trick is to triage the work and simply blow off anything that would put unreasonable demands on your time (Don't blow off backups.) Continue to claim the old hours, put in face time if you have to, but don't do the fucking work.

Only when the work is not getting done will 'they' think of adding staff.

The fuckers certainly won't fire you and if they do who cares anyhow?

The simple fact is that after four or five 60 hour plus weeks you are getting less done then you used to do in 40. Performance degrades during death marches. Just degrade yours BEFORE it affects the rest of your life. It's not your schedule, it's your managers. If you miss deadlines does it really affect YOU? Remember they won't generally give you anything for the extra responsibility anyhow.

This isn't just true in IT. I followed a similar path and it's even more true in development, still more true in commercial software development.

You simply have to 'Manage your manager'. They are generally too stupid to get anything right without lots of help. No fear.

Re:This is news? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25113887)

My story is exactly the same. I started on the switchboard at a hospital and worked my way up to "data processing supervisor." Since I didn't have a degree, management refused to promote me to IT manager, although my duties were the same. Job opportunities were few in the small town I worked in, and I stayed for way too long - until the place went bankrupt, in fact.

My next job at an alcohol and drug rehab facility was much the same. I was expected to take over all my boss's responsibilities after just two months on the job while she left to take care of her ailing mother. I had to learn her job with *no* training, and was berated for not magically getting up to speed in a heartbeat.

Later I learned that one of my predecessors had locked everyone out of the network after being treated like shit, which came as no big surprise. When I quit, I told them I'd train a replacement, but they didn't even look for one until the week I was leaving.

In my opinion, anyone who oversees IT personnel should be a technical person, period. Administrative types who don't understand technology are even worse than the domineering ones, IMHO - they think anything's possible just by waving some kind of magic wand, and are impossible to convince otherwise.

Fortunately, I got the hell out of IT and am now happily self-employed as a freelance writer.

Re:This is news? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25114087)

Yes. You say no to being treated poorly and stand up for yourself. If anyone tells you you need to be credentialed to do the work you are already doing, ask them to put it in writing so you can negotiate a reduction in workload at full salary, or an immediate salary increase.

Make sure you are being paid market rates for your time. Avoid taking the first offer people give you, and never, never, never sign any contract that restricts your freedom to leave, develop your own business/IP and/or seek employment at will elsewhere. Employment at will means YOUR will as much as theirs.

I've had decent employers and no nightmares. In my experience, the most frustrating general tendency when doing tech work was seeing non-technical managers overvalue hierarchy and undervalue competence. Some people perceive status by position rather than competence. The wrong way to deal with this is to be passive aggressive or angry at mistreatment. For them it is a business decision and nothing personal.

The right way is to treat your time as a business too. If you face unreasonable demands tie execution to specific changes in workplace practices that give you greater control over development. If your boss asks you to work overtime to get things done... that's a reasonable request provided the following changes are made. Keep the focus on execution and the terms under which it will happen smoothly and people will respect you and give you space IF you have a good track record for executing. Do all of the work regardless of how much garbage gets thrown your way and you'll be walked on, simple as that.

Should have nipped it (0)

Dog135 (700389) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114235)

1. Was planning on going to college, but couldn't
2. Left home, got an IT job
3. Learned fast, got lots of responsibility
4. Got too much responsibility, can't leave work
5. Want out, but can't because "you need more experience" or "you need a degree"

I was headed down that path. I'm a very fast learner with no college education. I taught myself over 30 programming languages so far.

In my first programming job, after step 3, I could see step 4 coming. I use to get stuff done 3-4 times faster then my coworkers. Problem was, they started expecting that with every project.

So I pulled back a bit, often holding on to a completed project days after I finished. I learned how long it would take my coworkers to do the same project, and I'd turn it in a day or so before that. Got complements on how fast I worked, and laughed to myself thinking about how much goofing off I did.

I wonder if my coworkers were doing the same thing. Too bad I was the only one that knew certain languages, I still got more projects then anyone else.

Firing someone? Let them get unemployment (5, Interesting)

Simonetta (207550) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113585)

Firing someone? For goodness sake's be sure to do it in a way that allows them to get unemployment payments. I'm been fired from several jobs over the past twenty years. I'm not a bad worker. But this industry (electronics/computers/high tech) goes through employees like rubbers in a 5 dollar whorehouse and then tosses them away like used Kleenex when they've served their purpose.

    Let's see. I got fired from Hewlett-Packard for having a picture of Claudia Schiffer in a evening gown (not nude) on my PC. 'Creating an environment conducive to sexual harassment' even though I was the only person working in the room.

    Hmm... I got fired from a small medical equipment company in silicon valley when my boss overheard me say that 'white smocks are for white schmucks'. The boss decided that all employees had to wear white coats to work; blue jeans and button down shirts were no longer allowed. I actually got an unemployment check when I told the hearing judge that 'forcing Asian workers to wear white smocks was an insult because in VietNam and China only corpses were wrapped in white. The boss was telling the workers that they were nothing more than dead meat."

    Oh and I got fired from Tektronix when I got blasted right in the eye with melted wax from a printer. No one noticed that the drain on eye-wash safety-station directed water directly onto a power strip. Of course it was all my fault. As always.

    I got fired from the German milling machine company where I had worked for six years when I demanded that the American employees get the same stock-option package as the German employees when the company went public. Since the USA branch was a subsidiary, wholly-owned by the German parent. The German manager claimed that he felt threatened and intimidated: he was six foot-eight inches and I'm five-foot seven. Ja-Ja.

    My point is that in a non-unionized cowboy industry like electronics people get fired constantly for practically nothing. If it hasn't happened to you, then it will sooner or later.

    If you want to seriously decrease the possibility that someone will 'go postal' when you fire them, then you must do in a way that enables them to get unemployment insurance. Believe me the weekly checks go a long way to 'smooth out the transition process'. It's a no-brainer and it doesn't cost the company any money. I can't understand why managers would pride themselves on firing someone in a way that makes it impossible to get unemployment. But they do.

Re:Firing someone? Let them get unemployment (5, Funny)

RoboRay (735839) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113649)

Yeah, I keep getting fired all the time, too, and it's never my fault. Something's horribly wrong with the world, but I'm golden.

Re:Firing someone? Let them get unemployment (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25113693)

Yeah, you got fired four times and it was never your fault, right... It's people like you who give this country a bad name, take some darn personal responsibility.

Re:Firing someone? Let them get unemployment (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25114783)

Yeah, you got fired four times and it was never your fault, right... It's people like you who give this country a bad name, take some darn personal responsibility.

Did you even read the guys post?
1) sexual harassment laws are bullshit.
2) the boss is an asshole, but still, fired for saying that? WTF?
3) he wasnt fired for getting wax in the eye, he was fired for shorting out a power strip that was located below the EYE CLEANING STATION. whatever dumbass put the strip there should be fired right along with whoever thought of firing the guy who was doing his job
4) that is a perfectly reasonable request.

Re:Firing someone? Let them get unemployment (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25113721)

It sounds more like they were looking for anything possible to fire you over. It costs a lot of money for a company to find, hire, and fire someone, so they're not going to axe you over a Claudia Schiffer wallpaper.

More than likely you're bad at what you do or have a horrible personality that they didn't like and whatever convenient excuse came up to avoid telling you the real reason they let you go was used.

Re:Firing someone? Let them get unemployment (2, Insightful)

karnal (22275) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114167)

1. It's work, don't put pics of ladies on your desktop. Keep that crap at home.
2. You pissed off someone higher up than you. Glad to hear you got compensation tho.
3. What happened to the printer when you got ink in your eye? ouch.
4. You pissed off someone higher up than you.

The ONLY way to stay alive in a company (and you've highlighted it twice here) is to be in what I call the "good ole boys club" - If someone higher than you doesn't like you (or you let stuff slip that may go against the grain) then it's time to update the resume. I'm not saying bend over backwards all the time; it's a game and unfortunately one that needs played.

Re:Firing someone? Let them get unemployment (2, Insightful)

bogidu (300637) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114831)

Good ole boys club? Sorry, I actually have self respect.

Last place I worked at ran this way, good ole boys club spent all their time learning from the people who actually made the place run and spent the rest of the time at happy hour regurgitating it to the higher ups all the while sticking knives in the backs of the people who had the misfortune of actually enjoying working with technology and spending less time schmoozing.

Yea, having a good ole boys club makes for a "Great Place to Work" for everyone else.

Remember this, being in that club will make you the last person out the door, but will also make you looking for a new job after all the real techies have already had to move on . . . . I can't tell you how many times I've had a new employer say "say, you worked with so and so, what did you think of them?"

What comes around goes around.

I would fire you for all of it. (0, Troll)

tjstork (137384) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114253)

Let's see. I got fired from Hewlett-Packard for having a picture of Claudia Schiffer in a evening gown (not nude) on my PC. 'Creating an environment conducive to sexual harassment' even though I was the only person working in the room.

Yeah, I would fire you for that. Condoning any sort of objectification of half of my people on my property is not only wrong, and counterproductive, but it also exposes me to numerous lawsuits where your behavior is harrasment.

Hmm... I got fired from a small medical equipment company in silicon valley when my boss overheard me say that 'white smocks are for white schmucks'. I actually got an unemployment check when I told the hearing judge that 'forcing Asian workers to wear white smocks was an insult because in VietNam and China only corpses were wrapped in white. The boss was telling the workers that they were nothing more than dead meat

Yeah, I'd fire you for that too. You aren't in VietNam or China. You are in American culture and you play by American rules and if you don't want to wear white, that's your stupid problem.

Oh and I got fired from Tektronix when I got blasted right in the eye with melted wax from a printer. No one noticed that the drain on eye-wash safety-station directed water directly onto a power strip. Of course it was all my fault. As always.

Oh, that old printer got you in the eye. Boy, yeah, out the door. That's just retarded.

I got fired from the German milling machine company where I had worked for six years when I demanded that the American employees get the same stock-option package as the German employees when the company went public. Since the USA branch was a subsidiary, wholly-owned by the German parent. The German manager claimed that he felt threatened and intimidated: he was six foot-eight inches and I'm five-foot seven. Ja-Ja.

Dude, its America... everyone has a right to own a gun. How tall you are doesn't matter. It's not like you can go into work and threaten to kill someone as joke, because, well, in this country, everyone has a gun and everyone can kill you.

Best example of this is 911 tape I heard on Sean Hannity. A couple of burglars broke into a house, lived in by a 50 something woman and her 70+ year old mother. Well, the 50 something woman freaked out and called 911, and, as she's screaming in the background about burglars and what not downstairs, you hear a couple of gunshots, followed by what sounds to be some old lady swearing. Turns out that grandma had her late husband's rifle and she shot all of them... best line, was, the daughter yelling out..."oh my grandma, did you shoot him again...." "teach that F---- to break into my house." At least 50% of the USA thinks that that is awesome.

Re:Firing someone? Let them get unemployment (1)

magus_melchior (262681) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114361)

I can't understand why managers would pride themselves on firing someone in a way that makes it impossible to get unemployment. But they do.

Scott Adams is way ahead of ya:

He's every employee's worst nightmare. He wasn't born mean and unscrupulous, he worked hard at it. And succeeded. As for stupidity, well, some things are inborn. His top priorities are the bottom line and looking good in front of his subordinates and superiors (not necessarily in that order). Of absolutely no concern to him is the professional or personal well-being of his employees. The Boss is technologically challenged but he stays current on all the latest business trends, even though he rarely understands them.

Nothing to do with IT (1)

MountainLogic (92466) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113635)

This has nothing to do with IT, per se, but everything to do with just a plain old disgruntled employee. Any employ can toss a few monkey wrenched in the gears on the way out the door. Plug a sink and let the water run, leave some doors unlocked, publish you emails, whatever. If this has become such a big deal with IT employees than perhaps it is a problem with IT employees? You think IT folks have it bad, try being the janitor!

Re:Nothing to do with IT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25114885)

There are really only two new things to the
"disgrunted workers threat":

1) management didn't realize how dependent they were on technology
2) how complicated it really is and so how hard it is to detect and fix

Any person can notice and fix a plugged sink or a unlocked door. However, how many people would notice a checkin that did corrupted financial data, that no one was given the passwords to systems or leaving a backdoor on the network.

Undocumented processes... (5, Insightful)

Chris Snook (872473) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113673)

I bet that for every malicious logic bomb, there are a hundred cases where a leaving employee takes with them the exclusive knowledge required to maintain some component of a critical system. What might have taken an hour to document will take their replacement a man-week to figure out, possibly with production services impacted, and there's no malice involved.

I suspect that properly resourcing and managing IT organizations to avoid *this* problem would prevent most of the frustration that leads to logic bombs.

Re:Undocumented processes... (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25113807)

What might have taken an hour to document... ...would have taken away an hour I needed to so some other vital task. And even if I tried, it's pretty hard to concentrate on doing thorough documentation when the phone is ringing/pager is going off/emails are flowing in/tickets are being submitted.

And if you think I'm going to give up my personal time to do it at night or on the weekend, all I have to say is "HA!"

Re:Undocumented processes... (1)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113821)

i think your spot on. of course management can easily stop this happening, by treating each employee as a valuable resource, offering decent pay and conditions to attract quality applicant in the first place.

i'm preaching to the choir here i'm sure.

Not just IT... (2, Interesting)

p51d007 (656414) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113791)

I work in a business that supports photocopiers, printers, fax machines etc. We are factory trained for brand X & brand Y. The the stupid sales genius idiots will go out and get new business, and then tell them "oh yeah, we'll wrap your brand Z machine into the contract with the new machine for servicing. Of course, do we have the parts, manuals and training on these brand Z machines? Hell no.

My experiences. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25113831)

Someone I knew deleted the O/S from firmware on all the routers. The O/S was running happily in memory until he got fired and the network was running for several weeks after he was canned. I have been treated like shit for 20 years and I have done some IMHO coolish stuff (eg dual monitor DirectX game engine) for employers but I have never achieved an exit like that. Some places I wish I had. Some employers deserve it.
I walked out of one place two weeks before delivery due to stress/health problems and dumped everything I knew into a little manual/reference book and multiple emails to everyone I had ever spoken with. The CIO/CTO died of heart failure weeks later. The company killed him with stress like they tried to kill me.

Isn't that every job? (1)

HalAtWork (926717) | more than 5 years ago | (#25113973)

Which jobs are the ones where they don't push you to do more with less? Downsizing, mass layoffs, reorganization, poor equipment that is maintained at the bare minimum, penny pinchers and minute monitors, these are not limited only to IT.

What would an MBA do? (5, Interesting)

stonewolf (234392) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114101)

One of my many ex brothers-in-law is an MBA. 30 years ago I was talking to him over beer about *exactly* the same problem that this article is about. No respect. No compensation for work done. No upward path in the company...

His response? Yeah, in business school they teach us that engineers are stupid. If you were a business major you would know what to do. When the boss says "do it" the correct response is "what's in it for me?" And if they don't answer with what you want you don't do the extra work.

Work 75 hours a week for a fixed salary? He thought that was just too cool. He loved the idea of getting nearly two peoples worth of work for the cost of one. So what if it ruins your health. They are planning to get rid of you before your bad health starts to raise their costs.

So... about a month later my boss told our group we were going on mandatory 60 hour weeks and we would be required to work Saturdays. Don't like it? To bad. In an open meeting I asked why I should do it. He said if you don't you'll be fired. I said "OK." If you fire all of us you won't get the project done. The rest of the staff caught on to the fact that we had the power. A couple of hours later we were told we would get 50% extra pay for working 50% extra hours.

Sounds great... I was fired within a month of the end of the project.

I learned the lesson. Management loves screwing employees. They get off on it the same we techies get off on learning and making things work. The techies have the real power and the managers know it. They love the fact that we won't use our power. If you want to be treated well by management you have to organize and be willing to shut the company down.

You want to be treated fairly? Quit your bitchin' and organize. Of course, we're so tough and love that libertarian fighter jock image so we don't organize... And the managers laugh and laugh and laugh at us all the way to the bank. And we keep being treated like the idiots we are.

When I was a technical director in the game business my manager called his business plan "burning babies". You hire an out of school power fool and work them until they can't take it any more. Then they quit. You don't even have to fire them.

Stonewolf

Re:What would an MBA do? (5, Funny)

Todd Fisher (680265) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114691)

At my former company one of the clueless head managers pulled all the developers into a conference and gave us the same "mandatory 60 hour weeks are now required" speech. One of the senior developers said "Only 60 hours? That's great!"

This is just security scare tactics.. (1)

tjstork (137384) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114127)

All of this talk of the oppressed worker is really just a clever way of catering to self serving and paranoid managers. These security people in computers are just drumming up all sorts of fear in order to sell their so-called "services."

Let's hope (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25114219)

Slashdot's sysadmins are well paid... you Anonymous Cowards!!! ;)

Paired programming... (1, Insightful)

PinchDuck (199974) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114223)

will go a lot to keep your programmers honest.

All my programs & script will fail on Jan 01, (1)

Average_Joe_Sixpack (534373) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114301)

I'll have my vengeance ...

Jan 01 2100 ... (1)

Average_Joe_Sixpack (534373) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114317)

damn slashdot form. I'll get you too!

My way of handling this... (1)

bgibby9 (614547) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114637)

is to provide a portal where all staff information is handy for them and show on the home page a day count whereby the servers and infrastructure has been online, working perfectly for XX days. For me this has shown to provide a two way feedback for non-technical staff as they have no idea what I do to make things work. Obviously they only "deal" with me when they need something, this way allows me to "deal" with everyone and say, "Hey, I've been doing my job!" without the gory details. Plus managers always love to see numbers!

My guess. (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114705)

If your ISO standard management type sees an article about the zOMG disgruntled engineer menace!!! his response will be, rather than attempting to re-gruntle the engineers, hire the services of some creepy security outfit to protect the company(and himself, primarily) from the disgruntled.

In the end, more money will be spent on pinkertons [ci-pinkerton.com] than on improving conditions, so people will still be disgruntled, as well as surveiled, all at great expense.

Move to California. (1)

dogdick (1290032) | more than 5 years ago | (#25114879)

Where you can sue a shitty company for overtime if you want to. It really does pay to treat us like dirt, well, it pays me at least.
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