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Australia Mulling a Nationwide Vehicle-Tracking System

timothy posted more than 5 years ago | from the coming-soon-to-$yourcountry dept.

Privacy 176

An anonymous reader writes "It seems that as political support for Australia's version of the national ID card is waning, the powers that be have found a far more effective way to catalog the populace. CrimTrac, an Australian government agency responsible for designing technical solutions to aid policing, is due to hand in a $2.2 million scoping study for the introduction of a nationwide automatic number plate recognition system (ANPR). It seems that as well as ANPR, the system will also collect images of drivers and passengers with high enough resolution for identification purposes. All ANPR data collected would be made available to participating agencies in real time, and retained for five years for future investigations."

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176 comments

Use the handicapped stall (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25182853)

...and shit like a king.

Goatse (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25182875)

Goatse. [goatse.cz]

You nerds [goatse.cz] love [goatse.cz] it.

on-start service. (2, Funny)

woodchip (611770) | more than 5 years ago | (#25182877)

Can you call the gov't up when you get lost and ask them for directions? "Help! I don't know where am I, but i see a kangaroo and the toilets are flushing backwords"

Re:on-start service. (2, Funny)

GaryPatterson (852699) | more than 5 years ago | (#25182903)

Surely you're in the bathroom. Just chase the 'roo out.

Also - Toilets flushing backwards? Doesn't that mean stuff comes *out* of the bowl and flies up at you? Urgh

Re:on-start service. (2, Interesting)

TapeCutter (624760) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183939)

"Also - Toilets flushing backwards? Doesn't that mean stuff comes *out* of the bowl and flies up at you? Urgh"

As an Aussie I would just like to point out that things do fly out of dunny's - that's why the redbacks live under the seat.

Re:on-start service. (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183039)

"Help! I don't know where am I, but i see a kangaroo and the toilets are flushing backwords"

For those whose knowledge of Aussie plumbing is limited to that one episode of the Simpsons, Australian toilets do not flush backwards. The design they use does not produce any swirling motion at all.

Re:on-star service. (1)

woodchip (611770) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183047)

Really? You just saved me an expensive ticket on an international flight.

Re:on-star service. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183201)

be cheaper to make a video call...collect

Re:on-star service. (3, Insightful)

electrictroy (912290) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183417)

Even if Australians used American-made toilets (with swirling motion), they still wouldn't spin backwards. How water spins down a drain is related to the design of the unit, not the earth's rotation. (urban legend).

BACK TO ARTICLE:

"Only criminals need fear tracking of their cars," is the most common defense to this proposal. My response: "And what if the government makes travel a crime? Then we ALL become criminals." Why would government make travel a crime? Well besides the obvious case of dictatorship, there's also the possibility a government might outlaw travel for environmental reasons. Or because oil is scarce.

A person is not truly free unless he has the right to travel whereever he wishes without restraint or monitoring.

Re:on-star service. (1)

aussie_a (778472) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183503)

My response: "And what if the government makes travel a crime? Then we ALL become criminals."

In that case it'd be more effective to just stand in the road, that way they don't have to hunt you down.

I love the "What if they do something different in the future" arguments. What if the government declares martial law and starts using chemical warefare on its own citizens? Surely we mustn't have an army so we can stop such a catastrophe!

Re:on-star service. (3, Insightful)

electrictroy (912290) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183745)

History shows that all governments eventually become tyrannical in nature. (For example Rome started as a Republic, devolved into an Imperium, and finally ended as a dictatorship.) More recently, we have our own President spying on us with the US PATRIOT Act giving him power to tap all phone conversations everywhere.

Why give some future tyrant the tools to abuse his power & track all travel? We should limit government power every chance we get, to guard against that future tyrant *before* he arrives on the scene.

Re:on-star service. (4, Interesting)

aurispector (530273) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183793)

Agreed. The whole idea is incredibly stupid. "CrimTrak"? If they know someone is a criminal, go to his house, his parent's house or his girlfriend's house. 95% of the time he'll be there. For the other 5%, we need panopticon video surveillance of the general population! It's obvious! How ever did we make it to 2008? The criminals should have killed us all by now without this technology!

Please, somebody, somewhere cut me a f*cking break and stop this stupidity.

Re:on-star service. (1)

aussie_a (778472) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183823)

I agree. Hence my example of not having an army to protect against future tyranny.

Re:on-star service. (1)

cheater512 (783349) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183927)

Australia is *far* more down to earth than the US government.

It would be quite a powerful crime fighting tool being able to get a bank robber's licence plate number and being able to track them within minutes of the robbery.

Re:on-star service. (1)

Antique Geekmeister (740220) | more than 5 years ago | (#25184015)

Actually, keeping the army weak is pretty important to preventing martial law. Or haven't you been to Iraq, Iran, Argentina, or Russia in the last 20 years?

Re:on-star service. (1)

gary_7vn (1193821) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183651)

That's not so crazy. There are a number of countries, like Australia, England and of course America that are pretty much going crazy with the control of the populace stuff. Russia used to have "internal passports" and if you wanted to travel to certain places you needed permission. Being caught traveling without permission was indeed a crime. The current trend toward kontrol resembles the get tough on crime meme, that has resulted in draconian and counter-productive policies such as the 3 strikes law in America. The dynamics are similar with pols vying to come up with ever "tougher" (read stupider and or more authoritarian) policies and laws.

Re:on-star service. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183759)

Oh goodie!
Report comings and goings of hookers/mistresses to and from congresscritters abodes, Report all commonwealth vehicles, both marked and unmarked visisting red light districts. Together with the tie up of mobile phone cell triangulation. Once a hacker has the wireless intercepts in place, everybody can mine this information. Just because the cops play with this now (to raise revenue) does not mean others can collect the same information for mavolent purposes. Too bad journalists aren't stupid enough - they walk or take a bus/train/bicycle, or a loaner car. That webcam on the window sill- well, thats just to observe the weather , wink wink.

Re:on-start service. (1)

plasmacutter (901737) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183277)

For those whose knowledge of Aussie plumbing is limited to that one episode of the Simpsons, Australian toilets do not flush backwards.

Oh thank god, I wouldn't want to shower and shampoo the rug after every use.

The design they use does not produce any swirling motion at all.

It doesn't involve a jet engine strapped to the top does it?

ANPR already in UK (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25182885)

already up and running in Britain admittedly without the photos (but we've got 1 cctv cam per 14 people in this gulag ^H^H^H^H^H country anyway)

Welcome to the Global Village (0)

mangu (126918) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183227)

we've got 1 cctv cam per 14 people in this gulag

It's not a gulag until they start imprisoning people arbitrarily. A country filled with surveillance is not a police state, it's more like a small village. Beware of gossip, act as if someone's always watching you.

Of course, surveillance *can* be used by a police state, but it can be used against the state as well. Remember the Nixon tapes [wikipedia.org] .

Re:Welcome to the Global Village (4, Insightful)

petes_PoV (912422) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183329)

Of course, surveillance *can* be used by a police state, but it can be used against the state as well.

Not if the police state makes it unlawful for anyone but themselves to use surveillance. In the UK, you'll more than likely have your camera taken off you if the police spot you filming them.

Re:Welcome to the Global Village (1)

aussie_a (778472) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183523)

Not if the police state makes it unlawful for anyone but themselves to use surveillance. In the UK, you'll more than likely have your camera taken off you if the police spot you filming them.

Please cite the law that allows them to do this.

Re:Welcome to the Global Village (2, Informative)

petes_PoV (912422) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183561)

Please cite the law that allows them to do this

Simple: it's behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace. IANAL, but this covers everything the police don't want you to do. They don't have to obtain a conviction - they merely arrest you, take you for questioning, confiscate your camera then let you go without charge some hours later.

You will then have been summarily imprisoned for a period of time - although you were never found guilty of any crime.

This is purely deterrence (and very effective it is, too) to stop anyone from doing anything they don't like. You won't get beaten up and officially nothing happened - except that you have been grossly inconvenienced and maybe lost your camera, too. As with any bullying regime, this type of action is executed with impunity as the police involved will not have to answer to anyone, or justify their actions.

Re:Welcome to the Global Village (1)

aussie_a (778472) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183575)

IANAL, but this covers everything the police don't want you to do.

And how many times have the police been had to account for doing this in a court of law? If you allow your police to abuse your rights, you don't deserve the rights.

Re:Welcome to the Global Village (1)

cdrom600 (981598) | more than 5 years ago | (#25184109)

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that police chiefs in Britain can now prohibit photography (and confiscate cameras) if they deem it necessary for security, or something like that.

Re:Welcome to the Global Village (2, Interesting)

gary_7vn (1193821) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183731)

I'm in Canada and every time I try to take pictures of the police, I am either told to stop, or am questioned, or in some cases have been told to delete the pictures! This just happened to a friend who was taking pictures of police practicing riot control. I get the message. Try it some time. It may not be illegal but it is not a good idea. Do a search on this, police harassment of people taking their pictures is absolutely common in various Western countries.

Re:Welcome to the Global Village (1)

aussie_a (778472) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183749)

And what's equally common is not doing anything about police harassment it seems. If you allow them this control over you, then you can't be surprised when they exert it.

Re:Welcome to the Global Village (1)

aussie_a (778472) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183507)

Of course, surveillance *can* be used by a police state

You know what else can be used by a police state? Pens! Clearly any country that uses a pen is a police state.

(not arguing with you, simply backing up your point).

Re:Welcome to the Global Village (3, Interesting)

secondhand_Buddah (906643) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183645)

The police in the UK already have the power to detain people arbitrarily. So that piece of the fascist puzzle is already in place for a gulag. All you need is some leader to take advantage of said legislation, but hey, by then its too late..
By the way, did you know that before the first world war, you could travel and live ANYWHERE in the world freely and without restriction? Passports were put in place to control the flow of people during the war. Guess what? The legislation was never revoked after the war. We just live with it, and it has got progressively More suppressing over the years. Do you really think governments have your interests at heart when it comes to personal freedoms?

Re:ANPR already in UK (5, Insightful)

ijakings (982830) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183233)

Yeh but thats counting all of the private entity Cameras. There seems to be a widespread myth these days that every camera you see everywhere is linked together. So that perhaps a mean with a white beard and an over exuberant use of visa vis can watch us 24/7.

A fraction of the cameras are owned and controlled by the government and even then, from the limited information ive obtained from watching crime programs, getting detailed information accross even county borders isnt easy.

Take off the tinfoil hat please.

Re:ANPR already in UK (0, Offtopic)

ijakings (982830) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183273)

Just realised that i replied to an AC, what a waste.

Re:ANPR already in UK (4, Informative)

sentientbeing (688713) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183293)

Ive spent the last few years working with IT departments at airports and other major networked UK sites providing cabling and telecom services. Ive been to many of the secret rooms and surveilance areas of these places.
Im not trying to disappoint the CCTV-Tinfoilhatters abroard in the US, but nobody sits in a room like Lex Luthor spying on individuals and following them about their business with camera. It is an extremely BORING pastime. The guys running these networks generally spend all their time releasing remote doors, monitoring queue lengths, opening car parking barriers and signing out keys for storerooms.

or reading The Sun.

Re:ANPR already in UK (2, Insightful)

electrictroy (912290) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183425)

I don't understand why people insist upon putting cameras everywhere. The terrorists that struck on 9/11 walked past several security cameras, and not one of them was flagged. They still boarded the plane & committed their crime.

Cameras are worthless, except for very simplistic uses like issuing automatic speeding tickets.

Re:ANPR already in UK (2, Insightful)

wisty (1335733) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183517)

Cameras might change the behavior of rational criminals, but not crazy criminals. I expect that the crazy criminals will stay crazy (and get caught), while the rational criminals will invest in false plates or stolen cars, and balaclavas. Or maybe Ned-Kelly masks.

Re:ANPR already in UK (2, Insightful)

Rich0 (548339) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183627)

Cameras aren't best used for realtime monitoring in some big room.

They're best used for retroactive analysis. Somebody becomes a person of interest, and now once you know where they were at any point in history you can find out everywhere they've ever been, everybody they've ever talked to, everywhere anybody they've ever talked to has been, and where they are right now.

I'm sure the first place we'll see these abused is in civil cases. Divorce cases come to mind very quickly.

Re:ANPR already in UK (1)

electrictroy (912290) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183813)

Cameras are best used for retroactive analysis. If somebody is suspected [of being part of the French Resistance], and you know they [bombed a Nazi munitions factory], you can find out everywhere they've ever been, everyone they've ever talked to, and possibly uncover their [secret meeting place to eradicate the French Patriots once and for all.]

Cameras are simple spying, the tool of control freak politicians, and they make the fight for liberty nearly-impossible.
We should not give the government the power to spy on its own citizens.

Yes (4, Funny)

oodaloop (1229816) | more than 5 years ago | (#25182911)

If only we had more data available, we could stop all crime!

Re:Yes (1)

networkzombie (921324) | more than 5 years ago | (#25182961)

Unfortunately, as historical data reveals, there is a slight chance this will help catch more criminals but it will not reduce crime.

Re:Yes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183013)

Funny, but I believe it falls more into the disincentive category.

No ... (1)

PolygamousRanchKid (1290638) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183033)

... crime will stop, when the last human being on the planet dies.

Re:No ... (4, Insightful)

magarity (164372) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183115)

No, crime will stop when the second to last person dies.

Re:No ... (3, Funny)

EdIII (1114411) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183237)

No, crime will stop when the second to last person dies.

I don't know about that. When I am all alone some of things I do to myself are a crime too :)

Re:No ... (3, Interesting)

electrictroy (912290) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183441)

I disagree. Anything you do to yourself, since nobody else is harmed, is not a crime.

The only reason certain "self" activities like masturbation, smoking dope, or committing suicide are outlawed is because we got a bunch of petit-dictators (aka control freaks) who want to control everybody else. There's no justifiable reason to outlaw these activities as long as the only person I am harming.... is myself.

"No person has a right to harm another. And that's all the government should restrain him." - Thomas Jefferson

Re:No ... (1)

aussie_a (778472) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183541)

Aaah but you'd be the de facto king (or other term if you wish, you're the king!) and so you could declare any law you want. Now while you COULD make everything you do illegal, it'd be a funny thing to do.

Re:No ... (1)

ufoolme (1111815) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183505)

No, crime will stop when the second to last person dies.

puts a whole new spin on being a crime fighter...

Re:No ... (1)

zymurgy_cat (627260) | more than 5 years ago | (#25184175)

No, crime will stop when the second to last person dies.

Not if that last person is into necrophilia.........

Re:Yes (1)

jacquesm (154384) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183073)

well since Australia really is nothing but an overgrown prison anyway I'd say they're wasting their money.

This will also look good to all those people that were thinking of emigrating there. This study was probably funded by the Canadian government ;)

Re:Yes (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183313)

It strikes me that by encouraging emigration to Australia, Canada would simultaneously improve the average IQ of their population and the IQ of Australia.

Re:Yes (1, Troll)

jacquesm (154384) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183347)

Something similar is currently happening along the Mexican / Texas border ;)

And I hear they're trying to increase the average IQ of Alaska by moving some of their people to Washington...

Re:Yes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183407)

Australian's may be stupid, but at least they are not $700 Billion stupid :)

Re:Yes (2, Insightful)

BiggerIsBetter (682164) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183145)

If only we had more data available, we could stop all crime!

but what would we do without politicians?!

oh, you mean, if only THEY had more data...

Re:Yes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183559)

True. We're not quite able to read thoughts, for example, thus leaving people to participate daily in thoughtcrime [wikipedia.org] . But we're working on it [guardian.co.uk] .

Re:Yes (1)

trout007 (975317) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183913)

When did the term "punishment" start to be used for putting violent criminals in jail? I really don't care about punishing violent criminals. They have showed they can't be trusted with freedom so they need to removed from society.

Australia Card? (5, Informative)

deniable (76198) | more than 5 years ago | (#25182929)

From the summary: "support for Australia's version of the national ID card is waning." Um, what national ID card?

So what exactly is the Hawke government going to do now?

Re:Australia Card? (5, Informative)

a.ameri (665846) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183395)

Mod parent up. The summary is (as usual) inflammatory and misinformed. There is no scheme, legislation or proposal in Australia or any of its states for a national ID card.

The closest it got to being implemented was in 1985 during the Hawke government's Australia Card bill. This was at the height of the Hawke Labor government's popularity, and it got the government into so much trouble and lost the government huge capital clout. Hawke dissolved the parliament and held new elections, but still was unable to pass the bill. Later on, a Royal Commission heavily criticised the idea and put the mater to rest. See this [wikipedia.org] for more details.

ANPR is right now, a "scoping study". Australia is nowhere close to perfect, but it has strong civil institutions, and you can make sure that heads will roll and blood will spill if this gets anywhere close to being proposed as a bill. Since then the law has moved in the complete opposite direction. The Privacy Act (1988) specifically mentions that no unique identifier issued by a government agency or corporation can be used by another entity for the purpose of identification. In practice, this means things such as driver's license number, a Tax File Number (equivalent to U.S SSN), or the medicare number can not be used by any corporation or agency other than the one which issued it in the first place, for identification.

Right now, this is a classic example in Australia of the state vs. individual liberties, taught in any university course about identity and privacy. I've met many 'ordinary' (read: not politically active) people across all fields of society, from social workers to lawyers and IT managers, and even the newer generation who is too young to remember the debate first hand (like myself) is definitely acquainted with the subject and its implications. So, unless the poster somehow managed to time travel from 1985, "public support for national card in Australia is wanning" is like saying "public support for Hillary's health care bill is wanning" or "public support for president Nixon is wanning".

The issue did come to surface once again, after former Liberal (which here means Conservative) Prime Minister Howard made some comments about it in 2005 after the London bombings, but even then it was heavily frowned upon and both parties knew better than to include it into their agenda.

Australia is nowhere close to perfect, but it has strong civil institutions. This is a "scoping study". The moment the study is published, if it recommends anything remotely close to implementing CimTrack's ANPR, you can make sure that heads will roll and blood will spill in the electorate.

Re:Australia Card? (1)

aussie_a (778472) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183547)

this means things such as driver's license number, a Tax File Number (equivalent to U.S SSN), or the medicare number can not be used by any corporation or agency other than the one which issued it in the first place, for identification.

What about a license plate to a car?

Australia Choices? (2, Insightful)

Ostracus (1354233) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183835)

Certainly a reasonable post. However note to a man not one has discussed to the other side of the issue. How far and by what means should law enforcement do it's job without constituents lambasting them for their failures (and they will most assuredly fail)? A weighty question, but then privacy is weighty and plenty have commentary on that.

Re:Australia Card? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183883)

Gee, I wish the US had politiicans as interested in privacy and personal freedoms, as Australia does. As to developing a nationwide recognition system for cars, do like much of the US did, let people apply for "E-Z passes" for their car, and then use them for tolls and for tracking speeds and locations traveled. Costs the country nothing, and actually makes money for some private company. Every account holder gives the company money up front, which can be used to play the float, earning interest for the company as well. And it's not the government spying, it's just a company making it easier to get through the tolls. And lots of folks, like me, voluntarily keep it in their car, stuck on their windshield. For a time, lots of folks used to keep it in a bag that supposedly made it unreadable, but then they passed a law saying it was illegal to hold it up on your windshield when driving through an E-Z pass toll.

Re:Australia Card? (2, Informative)

andersking (1201889) | more than 5 years ago | (#25184013)

There is no scheme, legislation or proposal in Australia or any of its states for a national ID card.

We possibly got close with the "Access Card" though. This is, i think, what the summary was refering to. http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,19450464-15441,00.html [news.com.au]

Re:Australia Card? (3, Interesting)

rohan972 (880586) | more than 5 years ago | (#25184035)

The Privacy Act (1988) specifically mentions that no unique identifier issued by a government agency or corporation can be used by another entity for the purpose of identification. In practice, this means things such as driver's license number, a Tax File Number (equivalent to U.S SSN), or the medicare number can not be used by any corporation or agency other than the one which issued it in the first place, for identification.

Interesting theory, but your TFN is probably known by your employer, your bank, centrelink (social security), your superannuation fund as well as the tax office. Of course, you don't have to give it, you could just pay 46.5% tax instead. Now that's freedom of choice to keep your privacy! With the growth of the Family Tax Benefit and other centrelink payments a very large proportion of the population is on some form of government payment. Since many of them have the government take it from one hand as PAYG tax only to put it back in the other as FTB, there seems to be no purpose to it but to increase government control of the population and to force the people into a position where they are always reporting their activities, income and other personal details to the government.

Don't be fooled by the occasional head rolling and the rhetoric of liberty in this country. The liberty of the people is dependent on being able to thwart government power. We occasionally thwart the power of individual politicians, maybe even a party, but not of the government institutions themselves. The peoples power to thwart government is specific to the branch of government. For the legislative we have the power of elections, but the majority of voters don't seem to be able to understand economic theory, monetary policy, the nature of government and liberty or logic well enough to make a decision based on anything but propaganda. For the judicial we have jury trials but I find few and far between are the people who understand the concept of jury nullification, people think that jury trials are about finding the truth (which is partly right) but don't understand the importance of being able to dismiss unjust prosecutions. For the executive there is the right to bear arms and we gave it up.

All three of these citizen's powers were used in the forming of this country during the events surrounding the Eureka Stockade. The government was resisted by force, couldn't find juries to bring guilty verdicts on the rebels, and the leader was subsequently elected to the Legislative Assembly of Victoria. Can you honestly say you think anything remotely resembling these events could happen today? I think it would be almost impossible to find a jury that would find in favour of people on firearms charges because their cause was just. It seems likely that even the possession of (unlicensed) firearms would be enough to secure convictions, let alone firing of police, regardless of the cause. Even if you could find a jury to release them though, the thought that they could become elected representatives? Preposterous.

Australians in general are not the freedom loving people we once were, and the ones who are here are not present in sufficient numbers to have any real influence on an election. You can look forward to things getting worse. Just look at some of the comments on the linked article in favour of this.

something we can use (2, Funny)

z3d4r (598419) | more than 5 years ago | (#25182939)

load the band up onto the back of a flatbed truck, then hoon around while pretending to perform.

request the resulting footage under the freedom of information laws, then release as the video to your latest single.

already been done (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183649)

already been done..
here [npr.org] , well sort of [france24.com] .

Australians! Wear clown masks every time you drive (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25182957)

no text

Re:Australians! Wear clown masks every time you dr (2, Funny)

stonedcat (80201) | more than 5 years ago | (#25182985)

OP is obliviously lying. I see that text plain as day.

Re:Australians! Wear clown masks every time you dr (1)

deniable (76198) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183309)

Or do it in KKK hoods and an unmarked police car. Oh wait, it's been done. [bbc.co.uk]

More uses for a Bill Oddie mask (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25182959)

If it is good enough for Top Gear it is good enough for us

Or maybe a Geoff Kennett, Pauline Hanson...

Next we'll be asked to dobb-in a neighbour!

I have only one thing to say. (2, Funny)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 5 years ago | (#25182979)

A long stick, a roll of duct tape, and a can of spray paint will trump even the most expensive traffic cameras.

Re:I have only one thing to say. (1)

Dan541 (1032000) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183055)

Alternatively you can just mount the kerb, it's allot easier.

Re:I have only one thing to say. (1)

Fumus (1258966) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183167)

That's why I have my plates drawn CAPTCHA-style, fo!

Re:I have only one thing to say. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183219)

an old car tyre full of gasoline can work wonders as well.

Re:I have only one thing to say. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183331)

or a plastic bag full of glue

Re:I have only one thing to say. (1)

mangu (126918) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183381)

A long stick, a roll of duct tape, and a can of spray paint will trump even the most expensive traffic cameras.

That's why they need *more* cameras, so the other cameras will catch you doing that.

CrimTrac is an interesting company (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183049)

I did some work as a contractor for CrimTrac a few years ago and they had this fingerprint recognition system that went into enormous detail in a single finger print, not just the swirls and where the lines were but it analysed the actual mini-ripples along the edges of each of the lines. Even if you had less than 10% of the total fingerprint it would still find matches by the sequence of ripples along a single line.

Re:CrimTrac is an interesting company (1)

jacquesm (154384) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183083)

yeah right, so all that will do is increase the false positive rate.

partial prints are just that, partials and should not be used for ID purposes, but hey, what do I know.

In some countries it seems to not matter who they get behind bars, as long as there is somebody associated with the crime it's good enough.

Same with DNA testing, it's best at *freeing* people, unless there is an exact match.

Getting very few crime cases solved is going to bring you full tilt into a police state.

See 'England'...

Yeah, not in my lifetime (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183097)

Ok just give me a moment....
Hahahaha, hahahaahahahaha!
I'll believe it when I see it, even if such system were to be implemented and they changed every single camera I'd doubt if they'd cover even a third of Australia roads.
It's painful for them to even get roads setup at all! Even the cameras we do have don't work, so they just turn them off.

I'm all for this system (2, Funny)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183105)

but only if it's to tag known criminals.

That means the politicians have to get one first.

Re:I'm all for this system (4, Insightful)

jamesh (87723) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183271)

I know you were kind of joking, but I think that would be a great test for any new law like this. Something to go in the constitution. Any politician voting to approve any new monitoring law has to make all data collected about them (and their family?) publicly available in as near to real time as possible for the duration of their term of office, and a few years afterward, just to make sure.

If the law gets in, the monitoring is only put in on a trial basis for (say) 6 months, after which the politicians are given the opportunity to change their mind about their vote (eg the law is put to vote again).

If any politician doesn't want to vote for such a law on that basis, then that's probably a pretty good indicator that the law is too intrusive.

Re:I'm all for this system (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25184049)

I have a better idea: why not simply limit the amount of power and revenue at the hands of those who control the business of government, so that they can't implement these spending schemes of oppression no matter how hard they try?

The power elite who control government spend and oppress because they have the means to do it, and they know that it benefits their elite class at the expense of everyone else. Make no mistake about it: as long as power exists, it WILL be abused for exactly that purpose. Who says? Thousands of years of human history.

Hey, I am serious! (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183213)

Spending millions to billions of dollars to put in place a system that people don't want, spending hundreds of dollars per camera when they are totally vulnerable to being disabled at any time for mere pennies, is a BAD IDEA!!!

On Ya Bike (1)

arctanx (1187415) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183231)

I for one welcome this new proposal to encourage everyday Australians like myself to ride a bicycle instead of driving the car and to wear sunglasses to protect our eyes.

Privacy Masks? (2, Interesting)

EdIII (1114411) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183249)

People will start wearing masks.

Personally, I have always wanted an excuse to wear a burqa. Yes, I am serious too. When we get to the point that facial recognition is everywhere I am just going to start obscuring my face. If I have to do that then I want to be comfortable doing it. Naked underneath a burqa seems to be a good place to start. I am only half kidding.

That will be a pretty weird looking world when you have to protect yourself head to toe to obtain a little privacy.

You think it won't happen? You think I am overdoing it a little? They are going to keep that data for FIVE YEARS. You think they won't sell access to it, illegally or otherwise? Of course they will. You better not cheat on your wife or girlfriend. Go to happy finish massage parlors in the middle of day. Basically do anything you want to be private, since it will be a trivial matter to find out EVERYWHERE you have been for the last 5 years.

Re:Privacy Masks? (1)

4D6963 (933028) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183631)

Masks? Wow, that's a good idea. I was rather considering waiting until 2054 and inject myself with something very painful that makes my face turn very ugly just like Tom Cruise did in Minority Report. But yeah, a mask, that's a good idea too..

Time for the sunglasses, false beard and large hat (1)

petes_PoV (912422) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183307)

and (highly reflective) sun-vizor

Re:Time for the sunglasses, false beard and large (1)

deniable (76198) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183463)

How about tinted windows? Harsh Australian sun and all that.

Countermeasures? (2, Interesting)

jcr (53032) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183349)

Ok, this is a technical problem begging for a technical solution. What's it take to detect cameras and hit them with a laser? A watt or so should do to fry the image sensor.

-jcr

Use IR laser diodes (2, Interesting)

cheros (223479) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183479)

An IR laser diode that is left unfocused will do the trick.
It won't zap the sensor, but unless they have used a decent IR filter it will saturate the chip to the point of not registering anything else.

Reasons why you may want to avoid doing this:
- no idea if there will be retinal damage if someone else looks at it
- ANY camera will get upset, so an traffic monitoring will show up your car as worthy of close inspection
- AFAIK, anything that hinders reading your license plate by whatever means is illegal (it is in most of the countries I've been in, no idea about AU).

This is NOT a tech problem, it is a political one. As long as the population doesn't make it VERY clear they disagree with what is going on, their government will continue to seek ways to waste a lot of taxpayer money. I'm willing to bet money on the UK ID Card scheme getting nuked if there is a change of government (AFAIK that is an election pledge), that's why they're so pushy about implementing it in at least some form (hence the contract announcements etc etc) - the intention is to make it hard to roll back.

You know, I can recall times when being in politics was something respectful. I'm obviously old..

Re:Countermeasures? (1)

Mike89 (1006497) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183597)

Does anybody remember the Slashdot article about some 'emerging tech' which, when detecting a flash, would fire an image backwards through a lens.. and thus project it for a brief second such that it was part of the photo? It was on here this year. If this was easy to do and not patented (it is), it'd be easy to beat speed cameras. Just flash back an image saying FUCK YOU.

Top Secret Fact: USA Already has it: RFID in tire! (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183353)

TOP SECRET FACT:Most modern cars have tracking transponders ALREADY!

Spy transmission chips embedded in tires that can be read REMOTELY while driving.

Yup. My brother works on them (since 2001).

The us gov T.R.E.A.D. act (which passed) made it illegal to sell new passenger cars lacking untamperable RFID in the tires allowing efficient scanning of moving cars.

Your tires have a passive coil with 64 to 128 bit serial number emitter in them! (AIAG B-11 ADC v3.0) . A particular frequency energizes it enough so that a receiver can read its little ROM. A ROM which in essence is your GUID for your TIRE. Multiple tires do not confuse the readers. Its almost identical to all "FastPass" "SpeedPass" technologies you see on gasoline keychain dongles and commuter windshield sticker-chips. The US gov has secretly started using these chips to track people.

Its kind of like FBI "Taggants" in fertilizer and "Taggants" in Gasoline and Bullets, and Blackpowder. But these car tire transponder Ids are meant to actively track and trace movement of your car.

Taggant chemical research papers :
  Â http://www.wws.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/byteserv.prl/~ota/disk3/1980/8017/801705.PDF
(remove spaces in url from slashcode if needed)
[amazing document deleted by feds recently]

The chips in your tires are for forensic "after the fact" database tracking, from databases collected on highway choke points, It can be done in real time too though.

I am not making this up. Melt down a high end Firestone, or Bridgestone tire and go through the bits near the rim (sometimes at base of tread) and you will locate the transmitter (similar to 'grain of rice' pet ids and Mobile SpeedPass, but not as high tech as the tollbooth based units). Sokymat LOGI 160, and Sokymat LOGI 120 transponder buttons are just SOME of the transponders found in modern high end car tires. The AIAG B-11 Tire tracking standard is now implemented for all 3rd party transponder manufactures [covered below].

It is allegedly for QA and to prevent fraud and "car theft", but the US Customs service uses it in Canada to detect people who swap license plates on cars when doing a transport of contraband on a mule vehicle that normally has not logged enough hours across the border. The customs service and FBI do not yet talk about this, and are starting using it soon.

A secret initiative exists to track all funnel-points on interstates and US borders for car tire ID transponders (RFID chips embedded in the tire).
The governement can then either look back in databases to see wheere and when your car drove, and OCR liscense plates at tool or Customs can
build the database up even better without the feds needing to visit your home to get your RFID GUIDs.

More sinister, it is near impossible to buy tires without the vendor in the USA filling out federal paperwork of what VIN the recipient car is!

Photos of tracking chips before molded deep into tires! :
http://www.sokymat.com/index.php?id=94
Link is deleted now but company that bought the tire snitch chip company makes passport scanners for the feds now : http://www.aaitg.com/index.php?id=23

PLEASE LOOK AT THAT LINK : Its the same shocking tire material I have been trying to tell people about since the spring of 2001 on slashdot.

a controversial dead older link was at http://www.sokymat.com/sp/applications/tireid.html
(its gone off archive.org internet way back repository now too)

(slashdot ruins links, so you will have to remove the ASCII space it insertes usually into any of my urls to get to the shocking info and photos on the enbedded LOGI 160 chips that the us gov scans when you cross mexican and canadian borders.)

You never heard of it either because nobody moderates on slashdot anymore and this is probably +0 still. It has also never appeared in print before and is very secret.

Californias Fastpass is being upgraded to scan ALL responding car tires in future years upcoming. I-75 may get them next in rural funnel points in Ohio.

The photo of the secret high speed overpass prototype WAS at :
http://www.tadiran-telematics.com/products6.html ...but the shocking link finally died in July 2004 and the new location 2005 does not have a photo of a RFID bridge underpass RFID database collector. But this 20005 link below does discuss their toll booth RFID tracking uses...

http://www.telematics-wireless.com/site/index1.php?ln=en&main_id=33

In 2008 Sirit contracted with DOD and US Gov (Highways) to track cars and trucks with RFID. their web site discusses such, and the DOD one uses RFID in tires :
http://www.sirit.com/index.php?id=268&sub_id=249
On 2008.05 that web site admitted fed highway use but only for tolling. They are not allowed to divulge top secret actual purpose..

but the fact is... YOU PROBABLY ALREADY HAVE A RADIO TRANSPONDER not counting your digital cell phone which is routinely silently pulsed in CA bay area each rush hour morning unless turned off (consult Wired Magazine Expose article). Those data point pulses are used by NSA on occasions.

The us FBI with NRO/NSA blessings, has requested us gov make this tire scanning information as secret as the information regarding all us inkjet printers sold in usa in the last 3 years using "yellow" GUID barcode under dark ink regions to serialize printouts to thwart counterfeiting of 20 dollar bills. (30 to 40 percent of ALL California counterfeiting is done using cheap Epson inkjet printers, most purchased with credit cards foolishly). Luckily court dockets divulge the existence of the Epson serial numbers on your printouts... but nobody except a handful of people know about this Tire scanning upgrade to big brother's arsenal. (ALSO NOTE that I tried telling people about Epson Serial numbers in yellow ink on slashdot in 2001 in the original very similar version to this large post but PEOPLE IGNORED me until the EFF.org "finally" confirmed it 8 years later in 2005 on front pages of all major newspapers and on slashdot recently). This tire info is and was confirmed equally 100% factual.

YOU MUST BUY NEUTRALIZED OR FOREIGN TIRES!!!!! Soon such tires will become illegal to import or manufacture, just as Gasoline must have "Taggants" added or gasoline is illegal, as are non-self-aging 9 mm bullets.

It is currently VERY illegal to buy or disable the "911 help" GPS emitter in digital cell phones in the US or ship a modified phone across state borders, but it is still legal to turn off your cell phone in your car while traveling. As you should. And you should be wary of your tires now too. : http://www.sokymat.com/sp/applications/tireid.html

Alternatively you could illegally build jamming devices at : 13.56 MHz (TI-RFid) , + many close freqs or a few others. If microwave is ever employed you might not be able to effectively jam but your brain would possibly cook over time, as it now known as of this year that the three harmonic resonances of water are not the only chemical actions harming human tissue at gigaherz frequencies. Jammers would be illegal and violators easy to locate. Tire removal is the only option.

RFIDs have been covertly used and sold by TI for over ten years are in many many products... and now your tires are being read by the us gov as you drive at speeds of up to 100 Mph on primary US interstate corridors. (Actually 160 km/h).

Those same US interstate corridors have radiation detectors too, but a small layer of stacks of interlocked graphite blocks those from detecting stealthy deliveries. Graphite blocks are IDEAL for shipping "dirty bomb" components, I believe.

Anyway, regarding tire radio transmitters: the sokymat LOGI 160, and sokymat LOGI 120) are just SOME of the transponders found in modern tires. The earliest tire radio spy chips had only 64 bit serial numbers but they have rapidly evolved post Sept 11 bombings: LOGI 160 LOGI 120 has 224 bit R/W memory (sokymat.com) to be marked using external hand help injectors with "salt" info when the fbi tags your parked car.

Basically the FBI "marks your car" without touching it physically, thus eliminating a "warrant" to put a locater on your vehicle. Just as the FBI can listen to you while you are at home by LEGALLY bouncing an infrared beam off your vibrating window pane and modulating the signal, the US Gov can LEGALLY inject (program) a saltable read-write sokymat LOGI eeprom tire chip (and other brands of tire transponders)

Using these chips to track people while they drive is actually the idea of the us gov, and current chips CANNOT BE DISABLED or removed. They hope ALL tires will have these chips in 5 years and hope people have a very hard time finding non-chipped tires. Removing the chips is near impossible without destroying the tire as the chips were designed with that DARPA design goal.

They are hardened against removal or heat damage or easy eye detection and can be almost ANYWHERE in the new "big brother" tires. In fact in current models they are integrated early and deep into the substrate of the tire as per US FBI request.

Our freedom of travel are going away in 2003, because now there is an international STANDARD for all tire transponder RFID chips and in 2004 nearly ALL USA cars will have them. Refer to AIAG B-11 ADC, (B-11 is coincidentally Post Sept 11 fastrack initiative by US Gov to speed up tire chip standardization to one read-back standard for highway usage).

The AIAG is "The Automotive Industry Action Group"

The non proprietary (non-sokymat controlled) standard is the AIAG B-11 standard is the "Tire Label and Radio Frequency Identification" standard

"ADC" stands for "Automatic Data Collection"

The "AIDCW" is the US gov manipulated "Automatic Identification Data Collection Work Group"

The standard was started and finished rapidly in less than a year as a direct consequence of the Sep 11 attacks by Saudi nationals.

I believe detection of the AIAG B-11 radio chips (RFID serial number transponders) in the upgraded car tracking http://www.tadiran-telematics.com/products6.html is currently secret knowledge. Another reason to leave "finger print on Driver license" California, but Ohio gets it next, as will every other state eventually.

The AIAG is claiming the chips reduce car theft, assist in tracking defects, and assists error-proofing the tire assembly process. But the real secret is that these 5 cent devices are a us government backed initiative to track citizens travel without their consent or ability to disable the transponders in any way.

All tire manufacturers were forced to comply AIAG B-11 3.0 Radio Tire tracking standard by the 2004 model year.

(B-11: Tire & Wheel Label & Radio Frequency ID(RFID) Standard)

http://aiag.org/source/Orders/index.cfm?task=3&CATEGORY=AUTOIDBC&PRODUCT_TYPE=SALES&SKU=B-11

Viewing b11 synopsis is free, downloads from that are $10 and tracked by the FBI. Use a google cache to avoid leaving breadcrumbs.

A huge (28 megabyte compressed zip) video of a tire being scanned remotely was at http://mows.aiag.org/ScriptContent/videos/ (the file is "video Aiagb-11.zip").
THAT LINK was still valid in Feb 2004 but in July 2004 died after feds saw my origianl warnings regarding T.R.E.A.D. act (RFID citizen tracking). For all dead all links in my post, use Archive.Org

[I guess viewing it is now a terrorist action. That link WAS valid from 2001 to 2004 though. At least my battle cry was valid for many years]

And just as "open" showerheads are now illegal to import into the USA from Canada or mexico, as are drums of industrial Freon, and standard size tank toilets are illegal to import for home use, soon car tires without radio transponders will be illegal to bring across state borders.

The US gov is getting away with this. You read it here first by me in 2001, but fbi shills kept marking my message to -1 to silence this post. It never gets modded up, and this is the probably fourth time I posted it over the last 3 years.

Hundreds of millions of RFID equipped tires were shipped in the last year. (Yes hundreds of millions according to AIAG).

US Congress's recently passed Transportation Recall Enactment, Accountability and Documentation Act (TREAD or T.R.E.A.D.) making it illegal to import or sell car tires and light truck tires without these radio transmitting RFID coils readable on them to track us citizens in a retroactive databse. The New York throughway has over 200 RFID reader points and I am not discussing the few at actual exits I am talking about 200 along the highway itself. New York says its for "safety" though they already get over 20 FBI subpoenas per year for RFID records from these transmitters. They get full computer files each time, but the FBI wants fresh data.

The TREAD act is just a branch of the Patriot Act, though much more sinister.

TREAD link (not a great one, look toward bottom) : http://web.archive.org/web/20051221045050/http://www.zebra.com/id/zebra/na/en/index/rfid/faqs/rfid_considerations_specific_industries.html
(You ahve to use internet archive lots of evidence keeps getting deleted off the web)

4 out of 5 times this post was rapidly modded to -1 by fbi shills angry at the epson ink info and tire info and explosives taggant info and only one time did it survive the FBI negative modding Slashdot accounts and remain at +2 by the next day. If you like to read RFID facts like this that I BROKE FIRST IN SPRING OF 2001 here on Slashdot, then keep this vital post from getting modded to -1 by idiots that cannot follow links or perform searches for themselves.

Learn and read. Every word in this post is sadly factual. I am sorry the feds keep gettign the links deleted, but the chips in tires are read on highways in usa using wires etched in concrete and it is indeed a massive top secret program. I told you all in 2001 here.

Re:Top Secret Fact: USA Already has it: RFID in ti (1)

base3 (539820) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183911)

Taggant chemical research papers :
 http://www.wws.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/byteserv.prl/~ota/disk3/1980/8017/801705.PDF [princeton.edu]
(remove spaces in url from slashcode if needed)
[amazing document deleted by feds recently]

The taggant article from Princeton's site wasn't deleted; its URL just changed. It's here [princeton.edu] .

Fuck the ALP (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183365)

Fuckings to that little communist loving dweeb Kevin Rudd and all the stupid cunts who voted for the ALP.

Ride a motorbike - helmet covers your face and there's no number plant on the front.

Re:Fuck the ALP (2, Informative)

PenguSven (988769) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183393)

You're an idiot, the ANPR scoping study was initiated LONG before the ALP won government.

STATE/LOCAL vehicle tracking already? (1)

ufoolme (1111815) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183535)

When I always read items like this, concerning nationwide objective the first thing that comes to mind is ... the project of 2.2m would have only been funded if localised projects were already active and effective.
If it was for a totally new adventure the funding would have been a lot more than 2.2million.
The technology isn't complex.. (blah blah blah)
And most cities here have tollways when a 100s of camera's, its native not to think the intelligence agencies ain't already hacking about with them.

#irc.7rolltalk.com (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183543)

Counter-invention (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183565)

Many Australians (including myself) already own the counter-invention to the ANPR Camera: The venerable cricket bat!

Perfect for brute-force attacks. If the target device is placed out of reach, the system is scalable: the batsman can be aided by an assistant with the cricket ball module.

I'm okay with this, IF.... (1)

aussie_a (778472) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183569)

I'm actually okay with this, assuming its all automated, and the police require a warrant to gain any information from the system (and they can only get the information specified by the warrant).

All major decisions should be done with referendum (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25183639)

At least give the people who the country -belongs to- the right to have it run -their way-! Simple, isn't it? Why should we accept something we don't want? - What's the point??
Referendums would be very easy these days, just let people vote with their phones, and you would get a real quick, cheap indication of what people want...
Come on, we live in a digital age, - -Use it!-

Let the people decide, it's their country!

Refining archaic tech (1)

Nodamnnicknamesavial (1095665) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183707)

It begs the question, in my opinion, why were are still using numberplates at all? Aren't there better way to keep track of vehicles at this point - seems to me that tracking devices in general might also help prevent theft to a large extent.. of course providing they couldn't be disabled easily, which.. yeah... would be a difficult feat?

If they wait, they'll get it for free. (1)

bbbad (591454) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183845)

The current love affair with GPS units can be extrapolated as follows. Gov. mandates blackbox GPS units. Features. - Warns you if you speed, - logs your trip data - tells you your speeding - prints out tickets if you break a trtaffic rule... you get the picture?

Unfortunately... (1)

hyades1 (1149581) | more than 5 years ago | (#25183871)

The thing people who try to impose crap like this never seem to realize is that it's easy to track honest people as they go about their daily business. People with bad intent can usually defeat systems like this with about five minutes' thought. Meanwhile, the information being collected infallibly winds up being spread around to friends of the collectors. Canadian Social Insurance Numbers were assigned exclusively for tax purposes. Now, you get video store clerks asking for your SIN when you apply for a damned movie card.

Bottom line: the only criminals who get caught by these systems are the dummies. So the end result is just a little Darwinian natural selection for your crooks while all the rest of us lose freedom and privacy.

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