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Microsoft Woos Developers Under the Silverlight

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 5 years ago | from the go-on-start-wooing dept.

Microsoft 300

CWmike writes to tell us that with the impending release of their Silverlight 2.0 product, Microsoft is poised to enact the next phase of their plan, wooing developers and designers directly. Microsoft is funding a French open-source project designed to allow programmers to utilize the Eclipse framework to build Silverlight apps. "Microsoft is also releasing for free a set of programming templates called the Silverlight Control Pack under its Microsoft Permissive License, as well as the technical specification for Silverlight's Extensible Application Markup Language (XAML) vocabulary via Microsoft's Open Specification Promise. The latter, said Goldfarb, should make it easier for would-be Silverlight developers."

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The crushing truth about Windows (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25360603)

Althouth I really like Microsoft and the proprietary software, I think that we all have to accept the crushing truth.

In these times it really doesn't matter if is launched Windows Vista Premium or Windows Vista Home, because while both variants (and other less populars like the fucking Windows Vista Starter Edition) require hardware that cost fortunes, Linux and others free OSs were maintained with modest hardware, letting us toet benefit even with really old PCs. Windows Vista is incompatible,costlier, and most importantly, slow.

The reality is that Windows Vista has litter to offer to the average user.The same user surprised with how his recent installed Windows Vista is running slow on his PC where Windows XP worked very well. Also he'll support the frustration when he is notified by force that many of the software that he used to work is now incompatible with this version. Microsoft did it again: It (Tries to) sells us the same mediocre product over and over again.

Then what is suggested to this poor user is that he needs to buy a least 1GB RAM or throw his PC away and get a new one. How many users returned to XP after that? How many decided to try Linux? A lot more than we think, I would risk to say.

Explain him why he won't be able to watch videos becuase of the absurd DRM that is incorporated in this version. Also explain him that in his Starter Edition (bundled in his new PC that he bought at Wall Mart) he can't launch more than three applications, or that the max resolution is 800x600, among many others limitations completly artificials. A shit.

While Microsoft was boasting with the new interface and the visual effects of this version, Linux was incorporating windows managers like Beryl (now Compiz Fusion) and Compiz, that without a doubt make Vista (and even MacOsX) look like crap.

The proof of the Windows Vista failure is seen when computers makers like Dell or HP are reintroducing Windows XP or preinstalling Linux. Or the contless corporations that get PCs with Vista and the first thing they do is install a stable OS. It's a just matter of time before Linux or BSDs get offered like a usual alternative in any country.

You keep defending Vista. You keep defending a OS that is offered like "new and improved" and the new features are the exaggerated system requirements that are needed in order to run decently. You keep trying to sell us a product that have practitly nothing new and can't give us development tools for itself (While any Linux distribution or BSD comes with plenty of software) , but worst of all, it's incompatible with many actual software/hardware. You keep trying to make us believe that the DRM is a normal thing, trying to implant a business model that is now obsolete.

And you? Where will they let you go today?

Thanks for you attention.

twitter? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25360679)

is that you?

Re:twitter? (1)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360769)

No. If it were Twitter then that post would be spread across 10 $ockpuppets.

Which is a shame, because Twitter says a lot of intelligent shit but he kills his case with his delivery(shameless responding to his own comments using "clones" of other popular users).

Re:twitter? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25361117)

Not enough dollar signs, "fuck you"'s and sockpuppets.

Lovely rant, but I have to know one thing (5, Funny)

Weaselmancer (533834) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361111)

How the hell did you get all that in there fast enough to be the top page post? I just picture someone foaming at the mouth and typing so fast hummingbirds are frightened.

I have my problems with Microsoft too, but damn. Go outside. Walk a park. Read a book. You don't need an ulcer at your age.

Re:Lovely rant, but I have to know one thing (3, Insightful)

martinw89 (1229324) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361487)

Actually, I imagine this as some late 30s, early 40s year old guy living in his mom's basement with trollish rants ready to copy and paste. He also has a barbecue sauce stain on his shirt.

Actually, that's how I see all trolls.

Re:Lovely rant, but I have to know one thing (2, Insightful)

I'm not really here (1304615) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361497)

Automated script to find the word Microsoft in a posted story, and auto post as anonymous coward with a pre-"recorded" tirade against Microsoft. Note how it didn't specifically address the Silverlight platform. This was a canned response, and one put in by someone with way to much time on their hands to code something to do this for them (or too much time to sit around while Firefox refreshes the page every minute until they see a Microsoft story and pounce).

Microsoft is not a single entity... Microsoft is made up of thousands of employees, and I'm sure there are some who work with Silverlight that really really want this to be the next Flash.

I personally would be very upset if Silverlight became a common tool, due to the frustrations with implementing it outside of IE.

Re:The crushing truth about Windows (1)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361467)

You [slashdot.org] posted the same damn thing in the last discussion. Wow, 2 FP's in a row, good for you, but could you please write at least one separate troll for each discussion? How about a Goatse?

w00t! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25360611)

1st post!

An Even Shorter Summary (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25360635)

The important parts of the summary:

Microsoft ... Developers ... ... developers ... ... developers.

Re:An Even Shorter Summary (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25360775)

Sort of reminds me of the Wizard of Oz, with the munchkins chanting "Follow the yellow brick road!", but this time, it's "Developers? Developers. *high squeaky voice* Developers? *low Barry White voice* Developers!"

Re:An Even Shorter Summary (2, Funny)

Xaemyl (88001) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360833)

Microsoft ... Developers ... ... developers ... ... developers. *throws chairs*

There. Fixed that for you.

Re:An Even Shorter Summary (5, Funny)

Captain Spam (66120) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361239)

Ballmer: "Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale Silverlight?"

Great news (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25360645)

I'm a PC

While I don't like Flash. (5, Insightful)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360649)

Flash is multi platfrom and there is GASH as an option.
I also trust Adobe to be OS neutral a lot more than Microsoft.
99% of our your users already have Flash so why make them download and install Silverlight.

Re:While I don't like Flash. (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25360777)

But your forgetting... Silverlight is.. awesomer than Flash!

Credit [xkcd.com]

Re:While I don't like Flash. (0)

kestasjk (933987) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360869)

I like Eclipse, and can't build Flash apps using it. I think Microsoft are making a good move here, hopefully they'll get it right where Java applets have got it so wrong (despite a 10 year head start).

Re:While I don't like Flash. (2, Informative)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360897)

Too bad applets got such a bad rap. They actually work very well now and are fast and powerful.

Re:While I don't like Flash. (4, Interesting)

thetoadwarrior (1268702) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361033)

I agree, Applets aren't that bad but it may take awhile to get people to forget all those horrible java applets people used to put on their ugly sites. One of my favourites at the moment is Wordle. http://wordle.net/ [wordle.net]

Re:While I don't like Flash. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25361519)

pulpcore is the best java widget framework out there, but there are still a ton of browser quirks with java, FF, IE, Opera, Safari, etc... especially when dealing with JS-Java and Java-JS communication.

In my experiance Flash is way more cross platform, and Flash10 supports most of what java had to offer like local file access and gpu accellerated 3d now.

until java installs without having to restart your browser, and is under a 4mb install, starts immediately, and does not require a redraw everytime it moves, Java still deserves a bad rap.

Re:While I don't like Flash. (1)

lenkyl (1353049) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360921)

http://fdt.powerflasher.com/ [powerflasher.com]

though not cheap, the fdt plugin allows flash development in eclipse. when coupled with mxmlc or mtasc you have everything you need to develop swfs in eclipse.

Re:While I don't like Flash. (4, Interesting)

gaspyy (514539) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361385)

Actually you can build flash apps without Flash.

Flex SDK is free and allows you to compile Flash, Flex and AIR apps.

FDT is not free but it's very very good (uses Flex). If you think it's not worth the money, you can write your own Eclipse plugin.

There are a number of other options, like FlasDevelop or MTASC, which although not Eclipse-based, are free alternatives.

Re:While I don't like Flash. (2, Informative)

eggnet (75425) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361427)

You can build Flash apps using the Flex SDK in any IDE you want.

Also, Flex Builder from Adobe is based on eclipse.

http://www.adobe.com/products/flex/features/flex_builder/ [adobe.com]

Re:While I don't like Flash. (5, Insightful)

TheRealMindChild (743925) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361131)

You do realize that is the same twisted logic that caused a lot of the internet to be IE only?

99% of our your users already have IE so why make this work with Mozilla

Same trap. Just a different beast.

Re:While I don't like Flash. (-1, Troll)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361279)

Nope
99% of our users already use IE. Why make them DOWNLOAD and install Firefox.
Which is how I do development. So nope it is actually the inverse.

Re:While I don't like Flash. (0, Flamebait)

bignetbuy (1105123) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361419)

Boo hoo. I have to point, click, and install. Woe is me. A whole 1.5mins of my life wasted so the remaining 33% of it spent on-line can enjoy a better browsing experience.

/sarcasm

Re:While I don't like Flash. (3, Insightful)

Tom (822) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361193)

so why make them download and install Silverlight.

Because you can.

Seriously, a lot of things with MS are just power games. The MS keys on your keyboard are an example. By my best estimate, about 1% of users ever use them for anything not an accident.

Re:While I don't like Flash. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25361299)

99% of our your users already have Flash so why make them download and install Silverlight.

But it's free! ... not like free beer, more like free crack-pipe

Re:While I don't like Flash. (0)

aztracker1 (702135) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361339)

Novel's Moonlight (FOSS Silverlight) is a better option to GASH, and works pretty well... MS has dedicated efforts to helping Novel in this. Personally, I think flash is better for quite a few things (animation, eLearning)... Silverlight is nicer for creating richer client apps with. They're about a draw when it comes to video playback, though Flash does have a ton more market share.

I agree wrt not trusting MS to keep an OS-neutral stance... but having met quite a few of the developers in the ASP.Net side of things (MVC), and Silverlight 2, I can say that they (the developers) are perfectly happy seeing support in other OSes. MS supports windows, and osx. Novel supports Linux, with ports to other *nix oses.

Re:While I don't like Flash. (1)

aztracker1 (702135) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361349)

Grr.. gnash...

Re:While I don't like Flash. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25361345)

Flash is multi platfrom and there is GASH as an option.

And I thought that "GIMP" was a dodgy acronym...

Did you mean GNASH?

Why not Flash or AJAX? (4, Interesting)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360681)

Keeping in mind I am speaking in a group where there are huge amount of open source zealots. However Flash has the advantage that it runs in Linux, Mac, Windows (And more if you are designing for older versions) while Silverlight is only Windows and Mac.
Next Flash is usually installed by default on Mac and Windows systems. (And a simple plug in for Linux... But if you guys are so smart you can probably add a plugin yourself anyways or the distribution has it already installed) Vs. Having to install it on Windows and Macs too.

If you don't need the extra graphics and AJAX method works good too. Plus you don't need to deal with the Closed Source Flash as well.

Re:Why not Flash or AJAX? (1)

Khorniszon (1188853) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360779)

> However Flash has the advantage that it runs in Linux

Yeah, especially the 64bit version.

Yes, I know about nspluginwrapper. It's a solution to the problem which never should have happened.

Re:Why not Flash or AJAX? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25360955)

A very little advantage, I have to say.

Re:Why not Flash or AJAX? (1)

scorp1us (235526) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361023)

see my comment here [slashdot.org]

Basically, I ask the same thing, except I throw WebKit out there (Its what Adobe AIR is based on). Flash and Silverlight are proprietary licensed products. WebKit is not.

Re:Why not Flash or AJAX? (1, Informative)

CodeBuster (516420) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361335)

I seem to remember that the NBC olympics site (which used Silverlight) had plugin installation that was fairly easy with Firefox (which doesn't support ActiveX so it was obviously not IE only) and didn't require many manual user actions such as downloading and running an installer separately. Now granted, that was on Windows XP, but if it can be made to work with Firefox on Windows with a plugin then wouldn't that same Firefox plugin be available on Linux?

Re:Why not Flash or AJAX? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25361437)

Nonsense. The popular free software implementation of Flash, Gnash, is not very functional at all. At least the free software implementation of Silverlight, Moonlight, is that much more promising (i.e. Mono works, whether you like it or not, and it is free software).

It just seems wrong... (2, Interesting)

eagee (1308589) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360707)

Like a booby trap. I dunno, M$ is kind of like the US Government for me. I don't trust 'em.

Re:It just seems wrong... (1)

BenSchuarmer (922752) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361447)

Go in to the Silverlight, there is peace and serenity in the Silverlight

So, does this mean (5, Insightful)

afidel (530433) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360709)

We can expect an open source Silverlight viewer? If so and MS has agreed not to enforce any patents on the technology then I see little reason for it to not overtake flash. Flash sucks, a lot. The sooner we have another cross platform app for doing online animations and movies the better.

Re:So, does this mean (2, Insightful)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360737)

How does flash suck? (Any more or less then any of its competition)

Re:So, does this mean (2, Informative)

rumpsummoner (1021011) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360845)

Have you developed on it? It looks good but actionscript is a nightmare if you're used to any language other than javascript.

Re:So, does this mean (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25360957)

ActionScript is really not that bad.

I am a full time as3 dev moving from C++ and Java. I still do quite a bit of work in Java as well.

There are only a few real problems with the language: a lack of overloading constructors and the lack of generics (which will be changed in an upcoming version).

If you're in ActionScript 3, it feels nothing like JavaScript. We've got strong typing!

Re:So, does this mean (2, Interesting)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360959)

Honestly having used Flash on Windows it was by far the easiest programming I have ever done (other than messing around with Scratch but that doesn't count). Yes, if you aren't used to JavaScript it can be a pain, but honestly, if you are an artist Flash is going to make you decent programmer (unfortunately art isn't my strong point so my Flash ended up looking horrible)

Re:So, does this mean (2, Informative)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361059)

Oh it is a holy war based on language syntax. I thought I was missing a glaring design quality issue about it.

Re:So, does this mean (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25361271)

How about the fact that playing a simple youtube video takes up 90% of my CPU and starts skipping where a comparable video with mplayer takes up 35% and plays smoothly?

Re:So, does this mean (5, Informative)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360765)

It is called Moonlight. http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight [mono-project.com]

But I am not all that comfortable with it. I think that Microsoft has done enough that I just can not trust them with any "standards" any longer.

Re:So, does this mean (1)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360895)

Flash sucks, a lot

No more than Java, AJAX or Silverlight does. Most of the problems with Flash are the exact same problems that would happen even with Super Open Ultra Stable Plugin's stable version. Also, Flash is supported by a lot of things, the Wii can view Flash files, and so can the largest three OSes (Mac, Linux and Windows), and so can a bunch of other things not to mention that GNASH is in development and is OSS.

Re:So, does this mean (3, Insightful)

afidel (530433) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361125)

My biggest problems with flash are CPU usage and stability. The fact that it's not available for anything but x86 is another, albeit secondary concern (mostly around mobile players).

Re:So, does this mean (1, Interesting)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361189)

Yes, its true that Flash does seem to use up an absurd amount of CPU, but upgrading (or downgrading) your Flash player usually remedies the problem. And the x86 requirement is something that a lot of proprietary software has, though if GNASH ever becomes usable it won't be a concern.

So, does this mean...pictures. (1)

Ostracus (1354233) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361285)

"Flash sucks, a lot. The sooner we have another cross platform app for doing online animations and movies the better."

SVG and SMIL so where's my viewer?

Re:So, does this mean (1)

aztracker1 (702135) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361393)

Yes, via Novel's Moonlight project. And for the second part.. that's there too. I am not a fan of flash, developing stuff with it is always a PITA mainly the differences in ActionScript vs JavaScript... The moderately inconsistant APIs, and the fact that there really isn't a nice developer model. Flex approaches a nice model of development, but Silverlight leapfrogs it.

Re:So, does this mean (1)

pipboy9999 (1088005) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361507)

I agree that there is nothing inherently evil about silverlight, its really nothing but a competitor to flash. The only thing I would be concerned about is that MS pressures developers into using silverlight and then cripples its use on non MS platforms once it gains decent market share.

Hmmm ... (0, Flamebait)

Xaemyl (88001) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360711)

I wonder how long it'll be until Microsoft breaks flash installs ...

Sluts (5, Funny)

orsocio (955882) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360743)

"...under its Microsoft Permissive License..."

love the way Microsoft kinda imply that open source is so slutty...

Re:Sluts (1)

moderatorrater (1095745) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361093)

They've got a point. These projects are letting themselves be manipulated in any way that these nerds can imagine. No wonder they've got such a bad reputation.

Re:Sluts (1, Flamebait)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361119)

If Microsoft were really serious about pandering to the open source crowd then they would use a typical open source license or at least not anything with their own name stamped on it.

Hubris and ignorance.

Re:Sluts (1)

aztracker1 (702135) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361463)

You mean like the Apache License, and Mozilla Licenses are? (The licenses in the most widely used FOSS applications out there)... MS-PL is pretty much a BSD License plus a don't sue clause.

Re:Sluts (1)

lysergic.acid (845423) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361525)

i'm still waiting for them to release it under the more "free spirited" Microsoft Promiscuous License.

Ugh, I tire of this... (5, Interesting)

TheNecromancer (179644) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360803)

I am so sick of reading these tech articles with an anti-MS bias to them.

As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code?? Silverlight is a tool that Microsoft is designing so that developers can take better advantage of the rich Internet experience. It steams me that the author of that article seems bent on pointing out that MS has this "ultimate plan" to kill Adobe.

Why can't people get past the whole pro vs. anti-Microsoft thing? I may be ranting here (apologies in advance), but railing on MS for their past business practices (which I don't condone, BTW) is pointless. I tend to use the best tools available for the technologies that I code for, and Microsoft has some good ones! Sure, they are proprietary, but it could be any large corporation in MS's place, and people would rail on them for being the "big, bad corporation"! Open source has its' place in the industry, as does proprietary software!

Let's get past the hate, and just stick to what we (developers) do best: write awesome code!! I get stoked when I hear of new technologies coming out (from MS or Sun, or whomever), since that means the online experience users want is getting better, and WE are the ones who give it to the masses!!

W00t to new technologies!!

Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (1)

grub (11606) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360861)


take better advantage of the rich Internet experience

I never understood how in recent times the term "experience" is applied to so many things. The net is a tool, not an experience. I use a hammer, I don't have "nail driving experiences" with one. I download BluRay rips, I'm not having a "copyright infringing experience".

Picking nits, I know...

Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (5, Insightful)

Microlith (54737) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360929)

Silverlight is a tool that Microsoft is designing so that developers can take better advantage of the rich Internet experience.

Sounds like marketing drivel to me.

Why can't people get past the whole pro vs. anti-Microsoft thing?

While financials are right in stating that past performance does not guarantee future performance, microsoft does not get the benefit of the doubt. They have (and continue to, albeit subtly) acted maliciously towards their competitors for a long time, and will spread FUD whenever they can to drive users to the "platform of choice*", namely Windows and Windows-derivatives.

Not to say that Microsoft hasn't come up with some good things. The problem is that adopting these good things puts you right where Microsoft wants you: following them lockstep, but never quite able to catch up.

That said, your post reeks of cheerleader. Wake me up when Mono catches up to .NET 3.0 (I think they just got 1.0 WinForms support and are nearing 2.0 compatibility?)

Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (1)

aztracker1 (702135) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361517)

Mono isn't a 1:1 implementation of .Net ... they are compatible with everything in 2.0 that matters. They have a large portion of the 3.0/3.5 stuff as well. (.Net 3.0 is pretty much an add-on to 2.0, while 3.5 has some core changes).

I've tested and deployed a number of applications under mono, including one that was built for mono. It's pretty nice, I wish people were more inclined to treat it like a first class citizen in linux distros.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (4, Insightful)

Dan667 (564390) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361079)

I think that you are glossing over three decades of Microsoft stifling innovation, locking out others, and bullying. It is a very healthy thing to scrutinize Microsoft's activity and make sure others know to be wary of them. If they are going to behave differently they are not going to gain trust over night. But there is nothing so far that show that Microsoft is behaving any less badly than they have before.

Oh, Please! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25361301)

I think that you are glossing over three decades of Microsoft stifling innovation, ...

Steve Jobs would have to disagree with you there.

They had nothing to do with the internet and somehow, that innovation made it. And don't forget that MS was one of the last folks to jump on the internet bandwagon and because of them, I don't have to pay for a browser. They released theirs for free thereby forcing everyone else to give away theirs. Which I think was good because Netscape was highly overrated even in its day.

Bullying? I have never seen any evidence of "bullying" by Microsoft. I have seen evidence of sour grapes from others in the industry *Cough* Larry Ellison, Scott McNealy, Metcalfe *cough*. Actually, Metcalfe, from the impression that I got from TV interviews, seams to think that a causal conversation is a contract or something. (Geeze! For such a brilliant guy, talk about not having any business sense!) But even then, he walked away with hundred of millions of dollars from other deals. But according to him, he's such a victim. Boo hoo hoo!

On the other hand, there's been a few folks (thoussands, actually) who became quite wealthy because of MS and they're laughing at the folks who think MS is some big bad evil empire as a bunch of whiny geeky twerps.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25361081)

You must be new here

Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (4, Insightful)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361113)

Well it has more to do with standards. I don't want to have anything I do on the internet tied to one OS, browser, or even software supplier.
Flash is supported on more OS's and more browsers than Silverlight.
Also I just can not trust microsoft to keep supporting anything but Windows.
IE, Mediaplayer, and VBA for Office all show that Microsoft will not support anything but Windows.
That isn't really politics it is just logic. The internet should be OS and Browser neutral.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (3, Insightful)

Foofoobar (318279) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361359)

Agreed. The web is meant to be cross platform and Microsoft keeps trying to tie the web to ther OS or their BROWSER or their TOOLS (which then tie back to their BROWSER which ties back to their OS). This is why people are anti Microsoft because Microsoft is anti-open and 'anti-cross platform'. Everytime they make the motion to be cross platform, they ruin it by tying it in to something else or exploiting it or making it obsolete. They can't just leave something open and cross platform. This is why people are suspicious that the have never accepted the GPL or any other truly open license.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (2, Interesting)

corsec67 (627446) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361149)

How is Silverlight going to make my "Internet Experience" better in FireFox on an Ubuntu AMD64 computer?

Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (1)

Timothy Brownawell (627747) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361181)

As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code??

You forgot "more useful". The more restrictions you impose on your customers, the less useful your code is.

I may be ranting here (apologies in advance), but railing on MS for their past business practices (which I don't condone, BTW) is pointless.

To a degree... but if you're relying on their future behavior (ie, not forcing silverlight to be windows-only), looking at past behavior is a decent idea.

I tend to use the best tools available for the technologies that I code for, and Microsoft has some good ones!

Yes, they do. But if I don't want my products to be tied to Windows, I have to either look elsewhere or trust Microsoft (in spite of all their history) to play nice.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25361199)

So, you just want to MS to have total control over the whole IT-industry?
Who can compete in software development with MS when MS owns the platform. This is the situation we (icluding you) must fight against. Monopoly is no solution.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25361207)

Agreed. Besides, competition is good! If anything, it'll ensure Flash stays competitive (doesn't become "stale", sort of like IE6 did, pre-Firefox).

Flash might have a port for Linux, but sound is broken, and it sucks overall. Silverlight (and moonlight) could hardly be worse...

Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (2)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361231)

I am so sick of reading these tech articles with an anti-MS bias to them.

As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code??

Well of course, but since when has any Microsoft tool kit provided 'better/robust' code? ( its been decades )

Their current crop of tool kits ( and language of the week ) are the pinnacle of bloat and internal inefficiency.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361251)

Oh, and if hear 'rich experience' one more time i think i'm going to puke.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (3, Insightful)

ConceptJunkie (24823) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361269)

Saying Microsoft is trying to kill Adobe is "pro-" or "anti-" anything. It's an observation. It's what Microsoft always tries to do.

I think you're being just a little too sensitive here when talking about a company for which nothing is too low when it comes to smothering the competition.

Aside from that, if Silverlight is good, people will use it. Frankly, all I could ever get it to do is ask to be installed, even when it supposedly was. I guess it doesn't support Firefox. Flash is closed-source, a performance hog, and Adobe can't seem to port it to 64-bits even though they've been allegedly "trying" for years. If that doesn't tell you volumes about the quality of the code, then nothing will.

Silverlight is from Microsoft, therefore it will _not_ come without some huge club beating you in the face to lock you into Microsoft regardless of whether it's good or bad. This is an important consideration. Just when software is more cross-platform friendly than ever, Microsoft comes along and tries to set the clock back 10 years. No Linux support? Is this 1998 again?

These are important considerations above and beyond whether Silverlight is easy to work with and performs well. All Microsoft technology comes with a big ball-and-chain attached, backed by an obscenely powerful company who is not afraid to extort, intimidate and lie to maintain their advantage. For many people, that's not a problem and may even be seen as an advantage. For other people, it could be a deal-breaker.

If Microsoft wants to be treated based solely on the merits of their technology, then perhaps it's time, after 30 years, that they attempt to compete based solely on the merits of their technology.

I tire of the likes of you.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25361289)

who simply refuse to understand.

It has nothing to do with being pro or anti-microsoft. It has to do with being pro choice. And as usual, we are not getting any.

Just an example: We, the Dutch, have a national broadcast system much like the BBC, payed for with tax money. Lately anything of interest on their website (for example the olympics) is only availabe in silverlight or drm-ed wmv.

If I want to see the olympics online, or anything else worth watching, I am being coerced in using Microsoft Silverlight and therefor buying Microsoft Windows.

In other words, i'm paying taxes to be forced to pay the microsoft tax. If you don't understand how wrong this is I certainly can't explain.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (1)

scorp1us (235526) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361297)

1. MS has the developer interia to control the market.
2. MS continues to fracture the market, rather than compete. People like Icaza are mislead by MS, and end up being MS's Linux department. But it will always be a 2nd rate platform to Windows. This only benefits MS, because now they can make a claim that it "'can' run on Linux", but it actually won't be 100%, because they hold back some libraries.
3. Of the stuff that is available for linux, it isn't available until way late int he game.
4. Microsoft doesn't compete with better technology. They compete with inertia. The products are floating on install base, like the company is floating on cash reserves.

I wouldn't mind MS if they were really cross platform - meaning that they are responsible for mono, and make sure all libraries are available and work on mono on the same day they are released for windows.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (1)

Jeff DeMaagd (2015) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361381)

Why can't people get past the whole pro vs. anti-Microsoft thing? I may be ranting here (apologies in advance), but railing on MS for their past business practices (which I don't condone, BTW) is pointless.

It's not pointless if they are continuing some ugly business practices. Not only is it enough of a track record to merit keeping a suspicious eye on them, they seem to be continuing it. It's enough that they highjacked the ISO standardization practices by stacking the votes or trying to throw procedures and votes out the door to get their Office format standardized, but they are trying to take control of the Open Office format as well.

I got tired of it too... (3, Insightful)

argent (18001) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361397)

As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code?

I used to be platform-agnostic and hardware-agnostic, but after a few rounds of companies pulling platforms out from under me... "better" code that depends on a single vendor is something I have to look long and hard into before I'm going to jump on board. I don't care whether it's called NextStep or .NET, SmallTalk* or BeOS, if it's under the effective control of a single company it's pre-doomed. Over the past 30 years I've been burned too many times to trust ANY proprietary platform.

take better advantage of the rich Internet experience

Another buzz-phrase that was just as scary when it was the rich Desktop experience. That turned into a Microsoft-controlled virus hive. Not going there again.

I tend to use the best tools available

Me too, so long as nobody can pull those tools out from under me because they went out of business or changed their goals. I don't care so much whether it's open source or not, so long as there's multiple sources out there.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this..."online experience" (1)

hAckz0r (989977) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361411)

Or lack there of...

If Microsoft wants to change the world I suggest they try to create a tool that will just 'run anywhere'. Sure, they could create the killer Developer environment and drive the droves of mindless programmers to their wonderful platform, I'm all for it, but at the end of the day if I can't run the final application on my platform then its just useless. What irks me is that Microsoft puts so much time, effort, and money into making sure I can't run it on (pick your platform of choice, any, just not written by Microsoft) platform X. All Microsoft has to do to get my support is to stop keeping others from interoperating. This this 'experience' you want to talk about is just a usability issue of the 'Internet', which Microsoft seems to think should be renamed to the 'Inter-NOT'. When I can run Silverlight on any platform that Microsoft didn't write, then and only then, will I give it the light of day.

did they finally get datagrid compat going (2, Interesting)

StupidPeopleTrick (1006681) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360811)

silverlight 1.0 had not XAML controls for the simple datagrid control. OMG what a stuff up! You had to go to xceed to get one and pay for it. That little detail made me so mad that I have sworn off silverlight. The message was clear, if your a small development shop, you cannot afford silverlight. Oh by the way, where is the automated testing framework for writting automated UI tests against it? anyone?... anyone?... - StupidPeopleTrick

Re:did they finally get datagrid compat going (1)

Shados (741919) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360889)

Silverlight 1.0 had no data controls in general, it was just for vectorial drawing and animations. Just a marketing trick to get the name out there... originally, Silverlight 2.0 was supposed to be the "first". It went from being WPF/E, to Silverlight, to Silverlight 1.1, to Silverlight 2.0.

Wasn't the xceed grid for WPF, not Silverlight, though?

Re:did they finally get datagrid compat going (1)

Dragonshed (206590) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360961)

silverlight 1.0 had not XAML controls for the simple datagrid control. OMG what a stuff up! You had to go to xceed to get one and pay for it. That little detail made me so mad that I have sworn off silverlight. The message was clear, if your a small development shop, you cannot afford silverlight.

Silverlight 1.0 development was a pain, most people opted to wait for 2. Silverlight 2 includes a datagrid for free.

Oh by the way, where is the automated testing framework for writting automated UI tests against it? anyone?... anyone?...

http://blogs.msdn.com/sburke/archive/2008/09/30/unit-testing-with-silverlight.aspx [msdn.com]
Written by the PM in charge of most of the control development to date.

Your message was FUD. Any more that I can dispel?
-ds

Re:did they finally get datagrid compat going (1)

StupidPeopleTrick (1006681) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361283)

FUD, no. More of a real disappointment over the Silverlight 1.1. When you go to all of the .net user groups, etc. and think to yourself "wow this is cool" - then sit down and play for 3-4 hours and realize how it falls so short, it leaves you with a bad taste in your mouth. The whole xceed thing ($) is what really got me. I may look at sl 2.0, but I still have to get over the first (bad) impression of sl 1.1. - StupidPeopleTrick

Really nice Silverlight sample site (4, Interesting)

RingDev (879105) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360817)

http://gallery1.demconvention.com/ [demconvention.com]

Yup, the Democratic National Convention site is Silverlight. The bandwidth isn't quite as impressive as it was while the event was going on. But flip through the site and check out the functionality.

As someone who has developed a bit with the beta Silverlight tools, I have to say it is an amazing platform. And I'm quite excited about using it in the future.

-Rick

Re:Really nice Silverlight sample site (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25360927)

Like there aren't already enough good reasons to vote against the Democrats.

Yes this is fantastic new tech..... (1)

MM-tng (585125) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360987)

We are sorry, but the Democratic Convention video web site isn't compatible with your operating system and/or browser. Please try again on a computer with the following: Compatible operating systems: Windows XP SP2, Windows Vista, or a Mac with Tiger (OS 10.4) or Leopard (OS 10.5).
Compatible browsers: Internet Explorer (version 6 or later), Firefox (version 2), or, if you are on a Mac, Safari (version 3.1) also works.

You can also keep up with us in Denver on our main web

Ahhh the memories.....

Re:Yes this is fantastic new tech..... (1)

RingDev (879105) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361153)

Yup, new technology. Specifically, new technology that isn't designed (by Microsoft) to run on Linux. Luckily, there is the Moonlight project from the same people who brought us Mono.

But if you want to play the high-horse battle... Gnome 2.24 sucks because it wont install on my PC-Dos operating system!

-Rick

Re:Really nice Silverlight sample site (4, Insightful)

argent (18001) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361185)

But flip through the site and check out the functionality.

We're sorry, but the Democratic Convention video web site isn't compatible with your operating system and/or browser.

I'm sorry, but you're making me more interested in what McCain's got to say.

Re:Really nice Silverlight sample site (1)

PhattyMatty (916963) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361377)

I went to that site and checked out the functionality. It turns out that that meant watching a couple of videos and then having it crash my Firefox... So far I haven't seen much good in Silverlight.

Re:Really nice Silverlight sample site (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25361407)

For the best Democratic Convention video experience, you'll need the Microsoft Silverlight plug-in and the Move Networks media player.
Weâ(TM)re sorry, but the Democratic Convention video web site isnâ(TM)t compatible with your operating system and/or browser. Please try again on a computer with the following:
Compatible operating systems:
Windows XP SP2, Windows Vista, or a Mac with Tiger (OS 10.4) or Leopard (OS 10.5).
Compatible browsers:
Internet Explorer (version 6 or later), Firefox (version 2), or, if you are on a Mac, Safari (version 3.1) also works

Re:Really nice Silverlight sample site (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25361417)

The site crashes on my Mac. Fucking Democrats, I definitely won't be voting for them now. Anyone who chooses to use Silverlight is obviously not fit to run the country.

More links on the topic (4, Informative)

Dragonshed (206590) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360873)

SL Eclipse Tools project
    http://www.eclipse4sl.org/ [eclipse4sl.org]

MS Press release (interestly enough, it plans linux as a supported platform)
    http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2008/oct08/10-13Silverlight2PR.mspx [microsoft.com]

Silverlight 2 release is imminent.

Why not use a fully open-source toolkit? (3, Interesting)

scorp1us (235526) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360933)

Given that Adobe AIR is based on WebKit, and the OpenSource world has Webkit (Qt has Webkit integrated, but Qt is not required for my suggestion), why don't we just make a fully AIR/Silverlight clone using WebKit and Javascript?

The proper way to woo. (4, Funny)

bionicpill (970942) | more than 5 years ago | (#25360935)

Everyone knows real developers work on beer, not on Eclipse.

The awful truth about Linux vs Microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25360999)

Althouth I really like Linux and the free software, I think that we have to accept the crushing truth.

In these times it really doesn't matter if is launched KDE 35.0 or Gnome Whistler, because while both environments (and others with less weight like IceWM) were worrying in confuse the user with a completely different aspect, Microsoft was consolidating his position as the leader in the field of the operating systems, first with the operating system Windows XP (that have approximately 90% of the market on the client side) and with its advanced successor, the recently Windows Vista, that offers a new form to interact with our PCs. Is faster, friendlier, and secure.

The reality is that Linux has little to offer to the inexperienced user. The same novice that is seen disconcerted by the impossibility to do a simple copy-paste between QT and GTK applications. If you don't believe me, go out and ask to the people how they install a program that does NOT have packages for their distribution (because each one has its own packege system, completely incompatible with the others, and requires the use of complicated commands). Even RPM packages can't be installed equally in Mandriva and SuSE.

Then what we suggest to this user (that is just beginning in the Unix Word) is that he need to download the source code, open the console, decompress it and compile it. How many people get to do it? One of each a million, I have to say. We persist in THAT is the normal thing... nothing more far from reality.

Explain him why in his Ubuntu, Kubuntu or Fedora, he cannot see many web pages: he must download the Flash and the Java plugin, in order to install them with complicated commands. Also make him know that he won't be able to listen his MP3, WMA and WMV files. Tell to the flaming buyer of a new AMD64 how he can play flash games. A shit.

And the gamers? Obviously they'll return to windows, because even God can't use the hardware acceleration of the most modern graphics cards (besides, the drivers don't come included with the distributions... becuase of "freedom"). How many games can be run on Linux?... just a few ones. By each Linux videogame we have 500 that run on Windows. And the few ones that run on Linux...Oh! Surprise!...Just Windows binaries on the CD, and you have to download the Linux version from a website. Finally the user returns to the best option, the most used OS in homes (we know what OS is).

The proof of the free software failure is seen also in the professional world, either in areas like electronic design (doesn't exist anything similar to Protel), architecture (the standard CAD -all we know wich one-only works on Windows), web design (something similar to Dreamweaver? Don't mention me something like NVU, that not only is full of bugs, but just have the 5% of the Dreamweaver features. Neither Bluefish, Quanta or similars... no one would face a complex project with such a primitive tools). DTP? Scribus is a good try (very immature) but Quark or InDesign are far batter. Flash content creation (a standard, and a flash player installed in the 99% of PCs)? It cannot be done on Linux.

In the software development industry there's not a single decent RAD tool. Gambas seems to promise, but for now is shit; Eclipse is a RAM eater (thanks Java) that can only be used with 2GB RAM; Kylix promised to give us the potential of Delphi to Linux, but it was discontinued because the developers hate to pay for licenses and they prefer to use a primitive tool, like KDevelop. And now that we talk about Borland tools, is not rare that programming gurus like Ian Marteens abandoned Delphi and C++ Builder and now prefer the most powerful system for software development: Microsoft Visual Studio.NET.

A computer game developer would not develop free (as in free spech) games, because they have to eat and there's not a business model compatible with free software. The Linux users don't want free (as in free spech) games, they just want commercial quality without pay a single buck.

Accounting software? On Linux? There's not software in this area. The businessman wants to have something standard, something friendly, something mature. He doesn't want to be fighting with a console, compiling sources, and in the end (if he finally get it compile) get a half-finished application.

If Linux is free (in both senses)...Why the high computers-makers don't preinstall it (just a 1% do that)? Or at least dual-boot? Others, in other hand, opt for FreeDOS.

The PC Battle is loss... because it never exist. Linux with it's chaotic development (instead of boost existing applications or create new ones to supply the lacks, we have thousand clones of each one (unfinished, by the way) or that directly just make us laugh) just has dug it's own tomb. The user don't want a degree in Computer Science: He wants to insert the game CD, make a few clicks and have all installed and running. He doesn't want headaches. He wants visit XXX sites and watch the video correctly. He wants to install his webcam without recompiling the kernel.

Keep defending the console. Keep defending LaTeX as if it was something that a secretary or a lawyer have to use with the same simplicity of Microsoft Office. You keep defending Vi as the best tool for software developmnet or for web site design. You keep believing that new users need to get close to Debian or Gentoo, taking days to configure a USB modem. You keep hating distributions like Ubuntu or SuSE because are trying to be friendly. You keep just like this and in the end there will be just three frikis using Linux, while the rest of the world will be using a OS that is already mature and functional: Windows.

And You? Where do you want to go today?

Thanks for you attention.

we're all going to be billionerrors again? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25361123)

what a difference a day makes? woo woo

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http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/06/05/severe.weather.ap/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/06/02/honore.preparedness/index.html
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http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/books/10/07/atwood.debt/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/01/opinion/01dowd.html?em&ex=1212638400&en=744b7cebc86723e5&ei=5087%0A
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/05/senate.iraq/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/17/washington/17contractor.html?hp
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/world/middleeast/03kurdistan.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080805/pl_politico/12308;_ylt=A0wNcxTPdJhILAYAVQms0NUE
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/18/voting.problems/index.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080903/ts_nm/environment_arctic_dc;_ylt=A0wNcwhhcb5It3EBoy2s0NUE
(talk about cowardlly race fixing/bad theater/fiction?) http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/19/news/economy/sec_short_selling/index.htm?cnn=yes
http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=ApTbxRfLnscxaGGuCocWlwq7YWsA/SIG=11qicue6l/**http%3A//biz.yahoo.com/ap/081006/meltdown_kashkari.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/04/opinion/04sat1.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
(the teaching of hate as a way of 'life' synonymous with failed dictatorships) http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081004/ap_on_re_us/newspapers_islam_dvd;_ylt=A0wNcwWdfudITHkACAus0NUE
(some yoga & yogurt makes killing/getting killed less stressful) http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081007/ap_on_re_us/warrior_mind;_ylt=A0wNcw9iXutIPkMBwzGs0NUE
(the old bait & switch...you're share of the resulting 'product' is a fairytail nightmare?)
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is it time to get real yet? A LOT of energy is being squandered in attempts to keep US in the dark. in the end (give or take a few 1000 years), the creators will prevail (world without end, etc...), as it has always been. the process of gaining yOUR release from the current hostage situation may not be what you might think it is. butt of course, most of US don't know, or care what a precarious/fatal situation we're in. for example; the insidious attempts by the felonious corepirate nazi execrable to block the suns' light, interfering with a requirement (sunlight) for us to stay healthy/alive. it's likely not good for yOUR health/memories 'else they'd be bragging about it? we're intending for the whoreabully deceptive (they'll do ANYTHING for a bit more monIE/power) felons to give up/fail even further, in attempting to control the 'weather', as well as a # of other things/events.

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"I think the bottom line is, what kind of a world do you want to leave for your children," Andrew Smith, a professor in the Arizona State University School of Life Sciences, said in a telephone interview. "How impoverished we would be if we lost 25 percent of the world's mammals," said Smith, one of more than 100 co-authors of the report. "Within our lifetime hundreds of species could be lost as a result of our own actions, a frightening sign of what is happening to the ecosystems where they live," added Julia Marton-Lefevre, IUCN director general. "We must now set clear targets for the future to reverse this trend to ensure that our enduring legacy is not to wipe out many of our closest relatives."

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"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

Embraced and extended already? (1)

argent (18001) | more than 5 years ago | (#25361137)

In addition, Goldfarb said the new Silverlight 2.0 player comes with a cut-down version of Microsoft's .Net runtime. That means that .Net developers -- Microsoft says there are 4 million of them -- can build Silverlight applications purely through .Net.

So, is this cut-down .NET runtime compatible with the Mono cut-down .NET environment that Moonlight is built on, or not?

prefering open web stack instead (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25361453)

SVG and colleagues

Just a few examples at http://svg.startpagina.nl

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